Whether or not ‘Hezbollah cannot be destroyed’ will remain a moot point as long as Israel and the West in general is handicapped by the meddling United Nations and weak Europeans.

Because of the meddling and unwillingness to have the job done properly, we now see ‘innocent’ Lebanese, running around, waving Hezbollah flags and proclaiming ‘victory’ over Israel. The Syrian and Iranian presidents have also declared a ‘victory’ over Israel.

Whispering Kofi and his gang have done it again. The terror will continue indefinitely at regular intervals, while the gutless West vegetates and cringes.

What a shame olo have published this out of date blurb by Clive.

I think Seymour Hersh's investigation into Israel's plan to do this months before the soldiers were captured blows his whole argument to pieces.

The stench around Israel today is about the same as the stench around George Dubya for his rotten and illegal invasion of Iraq, which was largely based on phoney "intelligence" from the out of date and paranoid Israeli secret service.

Leigh you can rabbit on all you like about Kofi Annan and the Europeans - they were spot on about Iraq and they called on a ceasefire in Lebanon within 2 days of the invasion.

Lebanon has never to my knowledge invaded Israel yet Israel has violated them 4 times, staying 22 years in an illegal occupation, using christian Lebanese militias to massacre Palestinian refugees in Shatila and Sabra - cases which found Ariel Sharon to be a war criminal.

Clive's information about Hezbollah is about as out of date as his blurbs were on Iraq. It is not the same organisation that started in 1982 as that was mainly the PLO resisting the invasion of Lebanon and the massacres stated above where some 22,000 Lebanese in all were killed by Israel.

This Hezbollah are politicians, social welfare workers, they are Lebanese and should not be confused with the former group.

As for the Hamas and Hezbollah working together - I don't know where Clive gets this stuff but not one person of note has ever proved that sunni's in Palestine or Shi'ites in Lebanon even consider each other to be human beings.

Now Clive should run off and write a new piece for us that is not one month out of date, when over 1100 innocent men, women and children have been slaughtered in a plan to teach Iran a lesson the repugnance and illegality is clear.

Hezbollah should be kept out of Australia. I am glad that our government did not give in to demands that it be recognised here. All Islamic institutions here should be under surveillance and should be open to public scrutiny at all times.
If they are innocent , they will be agreeable to this.

Marilyn, if Israel is pushed far enough by the barbarians surrounding it, it WILL use nuclear weapons to fix the problem once and for all. Israel is NOT going anywhere, so get used to it.

I do not understand what Clive Williams article is trying to say.

He kept harping on the notion that Israel can never destroy Hezbollah, as some sort of proof that sooner or later, Israel has to surrender. Boing, boing?

Well, Clive, guess what? Hezbollah will never destroy Israel. So, nyaa, nyaa, nyaa nyaa, nyaa.

Hezbollah has 500-600 "fulltime fighters" and "10,000 part timers", do they Clive? Big deal. Israel has six million people, and every single one of them over the age of 13, with access to any sort of firearm, is going to let a bunch of Muslims exterminate them without a mother of all battles fight where notions of humanity are considered somewhat quaint.

When the Arabs leave the Israelis alone, Clive, then, and only then, will there be peace. Because the Israelis will never let themselves be overrun and they will never surrender no matter how many katyushkas that the terrs toss at them. They have got the Masada complex big time, and their dedication, self sacrifice and deturmination is greater than anything a bunch of neuronally challenged Muslim misfits, who have been breeding with their cousins for far too long, will ever achieve.

I am not a religious peson at all. But if I was, I would like to be a Jew. I really admire their social cohesion, their guts, and committment to each other. It is something which we Anglos once had, but which we lost through too much complacentcy and inappropriate introspective naval gazing.

Marilyn Shephard

I know that you will hurl abuse at me for what I am about to say but if you do it may indicate that you are running out of arguments.

I am not sidestepping the fact that many Lebanese were killed by the attack as well as many Israelis including Israeli Arab Muslims. And this was a tragedy.

You say that Hezbollah are politicians, social welfare workers - why would social workers possess thousands of missiles and missile launchers?

But the issue was the Hezbollah cry to destroy Israel and their possession of all this armament - aimed at Israel. Of course the IDF planned this in advance - they knew of the threat and otherwise would have been incompetent if they did nothing to protect the lives of all their citizens. The kidnapping was just the signal that something much worse was to follow.

And don't pretend Hezbollah had not produced it's own plans in advance. Why the accumulation of deadly weapons? And why was the army of the sovereign state of Lebanon not anywhere in the area if was protected only by politicians and welfare workers?

May Hezbollah follow the words of allah and blow up as many people as he/they wish.

Can anyone remind Marilyn that, according to sharia law, if a woman gets raped by her father-in-law, she should get 100 lashes and should divorce her husband.

With regard to the article -what a piece of twaddle!

It could only have been written by someone
safely esconded in middle class suburbia far from the front lines

Hezbollah is not some isolated phenomena peculiar to Lebanon.
It is a common element found in most Islamic societies from Indonesia to Morocco

Its etiology is not some “injustices” committed by Israel, but currents in Islam (& common, at one time or other, to many Semitic religions).These groups don’t need a genuine justifiable grievance. In the relatively closed, censored societies they operate, where they control what is said, read & thought they can manufacture & sustain any grievance they like.

Hezbollah & its ilk acts as lightening rod for every malcontents, every maladjusted,anti- western, anti- authority element around. (and if they didn’t gravitate towards the extreme side of Islam they’d have to find something else)

Granted you won’t defeat Hezbollah with one or two military attacks however destructive.You need to liberalize the societies that engenders them.Perhaps such societies will in time, of their own accord, liberalize.There is some liberalization occurring in even the most rigid Moslem societies, and in time all creeds change & breakdown.

I sometimes think that the current wave of extremism may prove to be the last dying gasp of fundamentist religion before mankind matures and moves into a modern, secular world

"Its etiology is not some “injustices” committed by Hezbollah, but currents in Judaism(& common, at one time or other, to many Semitic religions).This country doesn’t need a genuine justifiable grievance. In the relatively closed, censored society it operates, where control of what is said, read & thought manufacturing & sustaining any grievance is likely.

Israel & its ilk act as a lightening rod for every malcontent, every maladjusted, anti-Arab, anti- Islamic element around. (and if they didn’t gravitate towards the extreme side of Judaism they’d have to find something else)

Granted you won’t defeat Israel with one or two military attacks however destructive.You need to liberalize the society that engenders it .Perhaps such a society will in time, of it's own accord, liberalize. There is some liberalization occurring in even the most rigid of Judaist fundamentism, and in time all creeds change & breakdown.

I sometimes think that the current wave of extremism may prove to be the last dying gasp of fundamentist religion before mankind matures and moves into a modern, secular world "

[NB I am citing and editing Horus. I'm changeing a few words here and there. This is not my view of Israel, Judaism nor the Jews or any other semitic people.]

Now Horus if I'd written something along those lines and posted it here or anywhere then I'd be quite rightly condemned as a bigoted racist.

Now why shouldn't the same standard and judgement apply to what you've posted?

The Israeli sympathizers and their venom come out and gang up on Marylyn Sheppard simply because she won’t bow down to Zion and searches for her own information. I cursed Hizballah for their attack on Israel, the excuse that Israel needed to start a war to take them out. But the utter barbarity that Israel showed with their indiscriminate bombing, their insane destruction of democratic Lebanon a Christian country the only one in the Arab world disgusted me to such a degree that within a couple days I was supporting Hizballah. The truth of the matter is and always will be: it is Israel that does not want peace in the Middle East it wants land and until thinly disguised anti-Muslim bigots open their eyes and understand that simple truth they will continue to defend the indefensible.

It's not in the online version but I recommend all people responding here to get today's AGE and see a graphic attached to Mark Coultan's piece on Lebanon/Israel - it should shock some of you fool's into silence when you see the horror Israel inflicted on almost every town or village from one end of Lebanon to the other.

Drooge, thank you. For the life of me I can find no reasoned argument in the 21st century for a Jewish state when 61% of the world's Jews don't want to live there.

Now to Hezbollah - they grew out of a movement to kick out Israel who occupied Lebanon illegally for 18 years and used christian Lebanese soldiers to slaughter Palestinian refugees in Shatila and Sabra and murdered 22,000 people in all.

Israel had no right to occupy Lebanon then or now yet today they are bombing Lebanon again in defiance of the ceasefire.

There is also a question sitting like an elephant in the corner of the room - with support for Hezbollah running at nearly 90% in Lebanon thanks to the sickening carnage caused by Israel why on earth would the Lebanese army want to protect Israel?

Also - hands up those contributors who love Jews and hands up those who would have supported Australia saying in 1938 "we in Australia don't have a racial problem and are not desirous of importing one".

After that statement and others by 21 Western nations 6 million Jews were slaughtered. Many here think refugees are the scum of the earth yet the Jews who escaped the holocaust paid smugglers, threw their children off trains, sewed their money and jewels into their clothes, disguised themselves as christians and all manner of tricks. It was this that caused the west to set up Israel and write the refugee convention which many here want to throw in the bin.

I will write my feelings about it all after I know I will be vilified and told to go and live under sharia law where women are raped by their fathers.

Keith,
A little “more matter, with less art” would have been helped your argument.

In case you haven’t noticed, Israel is not a closed society.
Unlike many Moslem societies, or "states within a state" like Hezbollah.
-Anyone can openly criticize Israeli govt policy.
-Anyone can openly criticize Judaism, or change their religion
Try doing that in most Islamic countries!

And Keith, you may like to take on board the (for you, no doubt ) distressing news that;not all Arabs are Moslem, & not all Moslems subscribe to Hezbollah & its ilk.

And I’d dare say even fewer would subscribe to it, if its true colours were analyses and exposed in a critical media & academia.

Drooge & Marilyn,
I wish all the best for the future
(talk about a match made in heaven).

Horus I'd have to disagree with your assertion "anyone can openly criticise Israeli government policy (or)Judaism".

Every such argument I've read recently is quickly followed by a rebuttal from the Jewish lobby suggesting anti-semitism or religious persecution, invariably including reference to the holocaust.

Drooge

Israel did not attack indescriminately and did not "destroy" Lebanon.

Marilyn

If you look at the "graphic" in the Age you will see clearly that Israel did not attack anything like almost every town or village from one end of Lebanon to the other. Nor did they occupy Lebanon in the past three weeks.

If you look at satellite pictures of Beirut you would see that only a small part of that city had been attacked. If you saw a recent ABC documentary you would have seen burly men preventing the cameramen filming any of Beirut which was untouched. No doubt that is why reportage of the war was so inaccurate.

As to your argument about Jews not needing Israel because 61% of the world's Jews don't want to live there I wonder where you get this statistic. Would you say that there is no need for the Vatican State because perhaps 99% of the world's Catholics don't want to live there?

And your statistic that support for Hezbollah is running at nearly 90% in Lebanon Where did you find that? Under the elephant?

I am sorry I cannot comment on the last part of your piece as I could not figure out any of it.

Logic

Marilyns boderline coherancy... please don't worry about not being able to relate to it.

MY FIRST DEMONSTRATION. Today I attended the Socialist Alliance/Palestinian Solidarity Network demo in Melbourne. What a dismal fizzer it turned out to be. The police had warned me that any contrary message would probably result in me being 'torn apart' by a couple of thousand "emotionally disturbed" people who attend these rallies.(His words) It was nice to actually meet the Seargent with whom I spoke on the phone at the demo, a nice bloke.

I reckon they scraped up 100 people max, with probably 50% of them at least being Lebanese/Arab/Palestinian.

The bloke doing the yelling into the PA system went hoarse within a 100 meters, and that after fumbling his lines.. and apologizing over the PA. His replacement became incoherant and slurring and hoarse by the 2nd hundred meters... and in all, I felt as threatened as Muhamad Ali would be by a feather duster.

I chatted with a few of them, surprisingly approachable, but they kind of went glazed eyed when history and some balanced information was presented. I even found it quite easy to share about Christ, and 'proto socialism' in Acts 2....
So rather than confront these cheery souls I wanted instead to FATHER them...so lost.. misguided, sad..

They shouted and had signage that we should change the 'Terrorist' rating of Hezbollah etc etc.. but all in all, pretty ineffective and irrelevant to all but themselves.

Hezbollah, and the PLO militants indeed will never be destroyed, they can only be moved far away and dispersed as I've repeatedly said.
I'm hoping that by NOW...people are tweaking to this truth.

The rally ended in a total anti climax at Federation Square where they addressed the 'masses' i.e. themselves, by this time about 60 max.
I drifted over to a performance of Islanders from NZ and Samoa etc, at the little ampitheatre -what a pleasant and uplifting change and stark contrast.

"I love a sunburnt Country, a land of sweeping plains
of ragged mountain ranges, of droughts and flooding rains"
D.McKellar

BD,

Good on you for going along to that protest, you are right, those guys are clueless. Don't get me wrong, my politics are probably more closely alligned to theirs than to yours but there methods are all wrong. They think they can change peoples view by screaming at the top of their lungs, you have to engage people whose view of the world is different to yours, not cram it down their throats. I think this is one thing me and you can agree on.

Redneck on the other hand, I have nothing in common with. He is essentially advocating genocide. A 'clash of civilisations' is not inevitable, but its becoming more and more likely because people like him refuse to accept that Muslims are human, flesh and blood people that bleed red.

If a new world war does happen redneck, I hope that you'll be happy to go along, and to send any brothers/sons/cousins as well, because you have done NOTHING to prevent it. You have simply spread the hate and exacerbated it.

Horus

I recently quoted the Anglican Archbishop of Jersuelem. His views would be criticised by you. By the way he is an Arab, a Palestinian and a pacifist. That would be remarkable to you no doubt. He'd forgive you your racism and bigotry...as do I.

Keith

I advise you to read the second part of my last post again about the Jewish refugees we turned away proudly. Add to that the fact that we invited over 700 known nazis to live here after the war.

Not one substantive argument - none. I am aware that only the south of Beirut has been bombed, but it was bombed and bombed until it was rubble yet not one rocket or gun was ever fired from there. Tens of thousands are homeless, the hospitals and schools are gone and they are still finding bodies.

I see no-one bothered to address their own feelings about the Jews - the figure of 61% came from the 2002 Census figures easily available on the net.

42% of all Jews live in the US and 39% in Israel.

There was a post on Haaretz on line a few weeks ago by the survivors of Auschwitz - it probably shocks you to know that their message to the Israeli government was largely not in my name, don't murder in my name.

I agree with them. Now go and read the second part of my post again about the treatment of Jewish refugees. Just because you don't want to face the reality that we sent them away doesn't make it less true.

To Mr Carl.

I am not promoting genocide, merely pointing out that in a situation where a minority has proven to be an unacceptable threat to a majority, genocide is a viable alternative if persecution, assimilation and ethnic cleaning fails to rectify the problem.

In 1251, the world Middle East had a big problem with terrorism. This terrorism was being conducted by the Isma’ili Assassin sect of the Shiite Muslim faith, who were based in the area south of the Caspian Sea, but who also had strongholds throughout the Middle East. The leaders of this sect promised young men an eternity of sexual pleasure if they would do their masters bidding and be trained as “Ashishin” who would gladly sacrifice his own life in order to kill their master’s enemies. (sound familiar?)

For over a hundred years, the ismaili “Ashishin” made life miserable for any person of consequence who dared to defy the ismailis. Their list of victims was long and included some very prominent rulers. It got so bad that nobody in authority went anywhere without wearing his armour under his robes. But the Ismailis made a big mistake, they were stupid enough to put out a “contract” on Mongke, who at that time was The Great Khan. Mongke sent his brother Helugu with a massive army of Mongols to wipe the Ismaili sect right off the face of the earth. This Helugu did quite efficiently. He simply exterminated the entire populations of Ismaili strongholds, wherever he found them. You got to admit, Carl, terrorising terrorists has a poetic ring to it.

You can’t argue with success, Carl.

I am absolutely shocked at Maralyn Shephard's last post. She is implying that a group of people that she calls "Nazis" are contemptuous.

Maralyn, you of all people must know that it is absolutely PC verboten to stereotype and label an entire class of people because of their religious and social beliefs. That would be prejudging them, which such a PC cardinal sin, that it amounts to blasphemy.

You also appear to be implying that Nazis should not be allowed to immigrate to Australia. But if a boat load of swastica armband wearing Nazi's turned up at Port Darwin in a leaky boat, how could you in all conscience demand that they should be denied automatic right of entry? Or argue that their claims for "refugee" status be processed in Nauru? Especially if they arrived with Hitler Youth children?

Since people with your mindset demand that nobody should be blanked judged according to their group affiliations, you must admit that their must be "good Nazis" and "bad Nazis". And the good Nazis should not be subject to contempt because of the actions of a few bad Nazis.

And preventing Nazis from immigrating to Australia would be discrimination, and I thought that you were opposed to that concept as well?

Honestly Maralyn, I am ashamed at you. Go and throw yourself at the feet of Bob Brown and plead for Absolution from your sinfull heresy.

Clive, a sensible piece, except for:

a) Hezbollah was not founded in 1982. From 82-85 it was in the process of being formed.

b)Hezbollah has denied responsibility for the 1983 US embassy & MNF bombings.

c)To my knowledge Hezbollah has denied involvement in the Argentinian bombings and no real proof exists of their involvement.

d) Your failure to factor in the research of Seymour Hirsh (Watching Lebanon) which reveals that Israel's rampage in Lebanon had been jointly planned by the US & Israel as a prelude for a similar campaign against Iran and was no mere "response to the hostage- taking".

Clive Williams “Hezbollah cannot be destroyed”

The defeatist believes of some is no reason to assume they are right. Even whilst it may not be “destroyed” that is no reason to leave it to grow and flourish.

Crushing this vile and illegal organisation might not work but it is a lot better than allowing it to fester like an open sore, leading to only greater social malady.

If those who hold western democratic values were to ignore all the other organisations like Hezbollah we would have been annihilated centuries ago, As it is, western values are worth protecting and fighting to protect them is the first rule of survival.

Israeli is the ME model of social success, adherent to democratic values and the target of Hezbollah.

The limp willed leftie appeasers might suggest some moral right of Hezbollah, such is their need for self flagellation and denial but the reality is Israel will not and cannot be destroyed either and Australia has a responsibility to support not only its friends but those nations which share our common democratic values (absent from such places as Iran, the funding and munitions sponsor of Hezbollah)

There is no way Hezbollah will be destroyed or even weakened, while the issues of occupation and recompense remain unaddressed. This talk of ‘western values’ means squat when the west says one thing and does another.

“Spreading freedom and democracy”? Better stencil that on the nosecone of that clusterbomb before dropping it onto Beiruit.

For all that Hezbollah is, they’re the only ones working on behalf of the civilian population. Col you’re going to be very disappointed. As for “supporting those who share our common democratic values” - this tattered phrase holds no meaning anymore. Jus’ words. Like “spreading freedom and democracy”.

Jus’ words, mate.

It is true that hezbollah cannot be destroyed. Neither can Al Queda, nor Hamas.

Bombs are never, ever going to win this kind of a war. It is so frustrating that those in power are unable to see this very simple fact.

A terrorist movement is based around a set of ideologies. Contrary to what first world government would have you believe, Al Qaeda for instance, is not a massive terrorist network with extensive communications facilities.

It is a series of cells. They are generally utterly independent of one another, though if one is very lucky they may be able to get a hold of some funding. That's about it.

These cells are created by frustrated muslims who are venting their anger against the west. You can destroy as many as you like, but they're going to keep popping up. You can't stop that. What's worse, when the first world reacts with force, it only increases the support base for these cells, and the likelihood of more cropping up.

The western reaction is so incredibly stupid. Hezbollah can never be destroyed. Certainly not like this.

HEZBOLLAH is active in providing social assistance to the population.

Is this remeniscent of the rise of Islam ? If so, what could we expect AFTER they have achieved power or preeminence. ?

Yes, it IS very similar to the actities of Mohamed and the Muslims during the MEDINA phase of its growth. Mohamed and his rag tag band of Muslims fled there from Mecca when it became clear that the Meccans were out to 'get' him in a terminal way.

He grew stronger in Medina, and finally attacked Mecca, executed key leaders, and thus began the violent upsurge and expansion of this false and misleading faith.

Once Mecca was under control, various 'ethnic cleansings' of Jews were carried out, various murders (described AS "Murders" in the Islamic Hadith) of specific 'annoying' individuals, and the theft of all property and land of Jews especially.

With the Jews gone or subdued and taxed into economic oblivion, Mohamed set about conquering the other Arab Tribes, many of whom embraced Islam as it was the only way of preventing annihilation.

Then, it was the Byzanties turn at the Battle of Yarmuk. Then Egypts turn, Syria, Israel... and much of north Africa.

While Hezbollah cannot be destroyed, just as Islam cannot, we of the Non Muslim world had better be prepared not for 'if' but 'when' these people seek to overcome us and impose the infrastructure of their faith through legislation.

They were stopped only in TWO places, which were pivotal 'macro-important' historical events.

Tours in 732 by Charles the Hammer, with a well trained disciplined army.

Vienna in 1683 by Count Sobieski. 70,000 Poles and Viennese against 138,000 Ottomans. Of striking interest here, is that PROTESTANT Christians actually aided the Ottomans, due to the oppressive 'Counter Reformation' policy of Catholic Leopold the 1st against them.

Had they won, protestant Christianity would have been obliterated under Islam, even though they were promised the 'State of Vienna' if they won. It is unthinkable that the Muslims would suddenly change their policy of 'Islamification' by Tax and social pressure on these Protestants.

ETERNAL VIGILANCE, politically,socially,spiritually.

The problem for all of us – Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Australians, Americans etc. is that war anywhere, perpetrated by whoever, will not end under the current economic and political framework of the world i.e. the nation state capitalist system. And before you scream hysterically – it is undeniable that all nations, whether “democratic”, autocratic, theocratic, or so-called “communist”, participate in and are bound by capitalism’s internal laws. The undeniable fact is that all of the horrors of the 20th Century and the new century have occurred within the capitalist framework.

While the majority of the wealth in the world is concentrated in the hands of a minority who wage war amongst each other (with others’ lives) either surreptitiously or openly, for resources and markets, there will never be peace.

Let’s face facts - human beings have the resources and technology to feed, clothe, house, educate and provide medicine and clean water to every person in the world – but we don’t. Do you think that if every person in the world had these things anyone would bother strapping explosives to their bodies? I don’t think so. Yet we don’t ensure that they have them and then claim that “market forces” and “competition” will do the trick. So we all have to “compete” for abundant resources which are controlled by the few. It is irrational and ludicrous. No wonder some take up arms. If Hezbollah is destroyed, something new will replace it.

Israel’s attack on Lebanon was not a response to the capture of the Israeli soldiers, it has been in the making for a long time, and has the full backing and assistance of the US ruling elite which intends to reorganize the Middle East in its own interests. Hence Rice’s comments about “the birth pangs of the new Middle East” during Israel’s carpet bombing of the Lebanese people. All opposition to US domination of the region is to be wiped out – with Israel’s help. If it wasn’t the US it would be someone else.

What we should be doing is changing the system.

Boaz_David,

Why not let facts today rather than musings of yesteryear guide your comments. The fundamentalist Islamic world NOT the Islamic world have made it very clear that they do not want to engage the West. In fact they want nothing to do with the West and are upset because the West continues to prop up dictatorships and interfere in the internal politics of Islamic countries in the region.

So it’s not a matter of the Islamists coming to "get you" it’s the West through its own self interest (oil) that cannot leave the Islamic world alone.

In the West’s, particularly the failed leaders President Bush of the USA and Prime Minister Blair of Britain, and their arrogance and total ignorance have chosen to interfere yet again in the Islamic world and have dramatically changed the balance of power in the region through their misguided, foolish and illegal invasion of Iraq.

Iran’s power was at one time balanced with a secular regime (Sunni) a sworn enemy in Iraq on one border and Afghanistan on another border: Taliban (Sunni). Now we have an arc of “democratic” Islamists (Shiite) in their place with extremely close ties to Iran.

And now with the cynical and appalling behavior of Israel and the USA in Lebanon they have boosted the influence of Iran beyond anything that it aspired even in the days of the Shah and that is why Hizballah is considered the winner of this last battle with Israel.

The Lebanese paid a high price in civilians slaughtered and infrastructure destroyed and for what? So that Israel can live to fight another day in their paranoid and myopic vision of the Middle East. It is absolutely disgusting.

Onya redneck, what a diatribe of misunderstanding from a misguided man.

Or woman. The people who were nazis, people proved to have put Jews into gas chambers were imported to Australia as migrants from 1945 onward while the Jews who were refugees from the nazis were ordered back to Germany by the whole "civilized world" in 1938.

The claim that nazis could turn up on boats now is ludicrous because there are no nazis now and even if they did turn up now they would have to be automatically excluded from refugee status because of the refugee convention.

In 2002 Australia continued on it's shameful treatment of Jewish refugees when the department decided that even though a family of Russian Jews were refugees they should have gone to Israel.

The High court ruled 7-0 that the idea was utterly ludicrous and they rightly got to stay. Kirby pointed out that the convention was written because of what the world allowed to happen to the Jews.

Now redneck before you claim I should be ashamed of myself go and read what I wrote instead of just mouthing off rot.

I have learnt a great deal about Hizbollah since the Israeli attack and invasion. It is apparent that there is a great need for the Lebanese to defend themsleves, given the war crimes committed against them by the repugnant Israeli military machine; it is the Israeli government, not Hizbollah that is the terrorist- which civilians had more "terror" to deal with, Israelis or Lebanese? I understand now that Hizbollah are part of the Lebanese government and are Lebanese people fighting in the resistance, as the French did against the Nazis.

The facts speak for themsleves; Hizbolla, Lebanese people, are helping the villagers rebuild; Israel has violated the ceasefire- again! and continues to destroy.

Only racists could continue to defend Israel's actions toward these persecuted people.

Time to move Israel to the US; it was a huge injustice and mistake in the first place. The US is bankrolling it and supplying weapons- cluster bombs included- to them; let the US have Israel if they supprt it so much- Texas would be good- let Bush see what good neighbours Israelis are!

Maybe the Hezbollah cannot be destroyed because it could be an example of an ethical fight against global injustice brought on by an America we had admired so much after WW2. A formerly great and wonderful nation with its successful introduction of the Marshall Plan, and the pledge to once more shape Immanuel Kant's envisaged world federation of nations into the hoped for model of perpetual peace it was originally hoped to be.

A letter in todays WA Sunday Times, pretty well encapsulates what is really wrong with our troubled world.

The letter writer points out how the US has used its veto power 81 times since the formation of the UN, and now as the only remaining superpower, has allowed Israel to again pulverise Lebanon, by virually rendering the UN useless while her Middle East partner does her dirty work.

So we have a formerly great nation, which was also successful in peacefully bringing an end to the Cold War with the Soviet Union, has since appeared to be hijacking the UN for its own political agenda, virtually practicing what is now called neo-imperialism in the guise of global democracy in Iraq, with most of its troops guarding oilfields now run by Cheviot Oil, Exxon Mobil, Shell and British petroleum. Note also, that the US is also assisted there by the UK, formerly well practised in the older imperialism

Dear Drooge

Your points about the US/UK 'Inteference' in Middle East regimes is duly noted.
Rather than answer you directly, can I suggest that you do some reading on the history of the spread of Islam (or any stream of history for that matter.. European also is instructive) and you will find a litany of exactly the same 'interference' by all sides at different times.

I'm sure you are aware that NationStates do such things in their own interests, particularly survival interests. Clearly, if a regime is perceived as, and proven as 'friendly', there will be little inteference by others (whoever they might be).

Is there an 'Interference' by Iran in Iraq ? in South Lebanon ?
Is it in the form of OFFENSIVE long range missiles and modern anti tank missiles ? You know the answer to this.

SUNISLE
Characterizing the Israelies as 'War Criminals' is to judge yourself, and definitely the PLO. Supporting them is to support War Criminals
See these images to verify that I'm not talking garbage.
http://www.geocities.com/damour1976/photo.html

Now.. given the factual nature of the above incident. And the protest which was on the streets of Melbourne yesterday, with Australians wearing Palestinian scalves, just imagine how you would feel if your mother, father, brother etc were among those killed by the PLO ?

One could be forgiven for wanting to show such pictures 'IN THE FACE' of those naive and uninformed Australians, and I almost did that.
The only thing which held me back was Police advice that they would prefer not to be a punching back between me and a couple of thousand emotionally disturbed Palestinians who might tear me to pieces and thus would arrest ME as the easiest way out of such a problem.

In the end I had cordial conversations with the sad Aussie pawns.

Beware of 'giving comfort' to the enemies of Australia... the Anti terror laws are not for nothing.

Marilyn Shepherd wrote:

"Also - hands up those contributors who love Jews and hands up those who would have supported Australia saying in 1938 "we in Australia don't have a racial problem and are not desirous of importing one".

The best and most obvious way that this piece of libel on Australia can be answered comes from the website of the Jewish Board of Deputies on the extent of anti-semitism in Australia, which is here:

http://www.nswjbd.org/MintDigital.NET/NSWJBD.aspx?XmlNode=/MainNav/Judaism/Jewish+History/Australian+Jewish+History

All immigration to Australia in the 1930's must be considered in the light of the depression, and the massive unemployment. In fact, in 1931 the Governor-General issued a proclamation stating that due to the depression all immigration was to cease for the time being and that any immigrants that arrived would be required to sit for the dictation test. The next immigrants to Australia were Jewish refugees in 1939.

I know that Australia took in a large number of Jewish families in 1939 because I went to school with their children. I also know from first hand experience what a credit to Australia these children were.

I really don't understand what Marilyn Shepherd is really advocating. She does not seem to believe that Israel should exist, but I am not sure if she is opposed to the expansion of the muslim religion all over the world. I think it would help all other posters if she could expand a positive vision of what she wants, rather than just being cirtical of Israel.

I have no wish to indulge in dailogue with Boaz_David; when someone has no insight into their pathological need to catagorize human beings according to race, religion or colour there is no hope for compassionate, logical argument. Until a person can see all human beings equally and feel empathy for those in need, there is no hope for them.

I will touch on War Crimes, which have been documented against Israel by the UN, Amnesty International, the Red Cross and Human Rights Watch. These organizations judge countries on their ACTIONS, not on their race, colour or religion. Israelis could be Buddhist, Catholic, Turkish, blue, from Mars.....it is Israle's ACTIONS that have caused them to become a pariah on the world stage.

Someone on this board suggested moving Israel to the US...I second that. If the US are so supportive of Israel, let them have Israel as their neighbour. It is apparent that Israel is incapable of living at peace with it's nieghbours. THE LATEST MIDDLE EAST CEASEFIRE BROKEN AGAIN BY THEM. It was a huge mistake and injustice in the first place; let's cut the world's losses- in lives- and prevent further loss of life and move Israel to Texas.

Those that choose to stay can become Palestinian citizens and live as Palestinians. It was what was happening before the disastrous 1948 catastrophe. Palestinians then were various religions- not just one- and lived together as Palestinians...way past time to cut the world's losses and move Israel to the US.

Dear Sunisle

yes..its hard to debate when you have a weak case right ? :)

Why did you not mention the PLO as War criminals in that list you provided ? Perrrhaps because such an admission would not suit your "Israel_Bashing_no_matter_what" mission ?

You condemn me for something that in a few sentences later you do yourself..... I was getting images of you frothing at the mouth as you typed that....it didn't make a lot of sense, resembling a 'rant' more than reasoned output.

Plerdsy.. Marilyn is self medicating I think... and is probably impacted emotionally by the condition for which she is having treatment. We should try to sustain her and give wise guidance which might reduce the acute sense of distress over things she can't see very clearly.

I hope to destroy any support for Hezbollah in Melbourne. Will be difficult but I should try. Might hold a rally at the State Library, dress in Black, combat boots, balaclava... huge PA system.... and just when everyone thinks I'm a 'white supremacist' I'll call for giving the houses along Gardners Creek Box Hill and the Merri and Darebin Creeks to Aboriginal families :)
Then, I'll condemn those who support the terrorist Hezbollah and declare those who support them 'Traitors to Australia'.
Then proclaim R.I.P. Multi-culturalism with a mock coffin with that written on the side.
I'll also have a Banner condemning the War Criminal PLO genocide and show large pics of their murderous rampage.

Concluding with a call for 'NO HEZBOLLAH SUPPORTERS' be allowed to migrate here.
Hmmmmm.....
PERICLES...where are you ?

Bamboozled,

As an opponent of multiculturalism (" 'The only race is the human race race' is laughably naive...Emphasizing or even facilitating 'difference' (such as with Multi-culturalism) is a recipe for conflict, possibly even murky war.") how do you explain away your marriage to that poor, long-suffering lady from Borneo?

Dear_Strewth
regarding_your_question

“As an opponent of multiculturalism.... how do you explain away your marriage to that poor, long-suffering lady from Borneo”?

Thanks for that important question ! No cheque this time :)

Its simple.

1/ You misunderstand my opposition to ‘MultiCulturalism’ to mean ‘anti Multi racial’.

2/ She is indeed a warrior... she prefers food done in her own cultural way, but bless her, she prepares food which is usually rice based “Asian” so to speak, but prepared kind of like Chinese food, which we all love, but her own cultural approach is quite different. Sometimes she will even cook twice, once for us, and then for herself, but her style is quite simple....rice porridge and some chopped up vegie, or some simple soup... She can do quite a few ‘Aussie’ meals but we don’t ask her to do that much, because we have adapted to the rice based meals.

I’m not against other ‘races’ being in or coming to Australia. I’m VERY much for a ‘managed’ approach to that issue such that our own ethnic/cultural predominance is not threatened.

Do I say this in a ‘racist’ way ? suggesting that our culture is ‘superior’ ? not at all. We have many weaknesses. I’m far more concerned about the social/cultural and political stability of the country.
I’ve lived through race riots and seen the horrible impact. I also made a ‘pilgrimage’ to Cronulla and Lakemba to get a feel for those events.

Race relations once soured are very difficult to repair. Similar to the Lebanese Civil war.. 4 Christians killed, then a bus load of Palestinian workers, then Karantina then Damour etc etc.. and 19 yrs of fighting followed.

The only barrier to widespread outbreaks of ethnic strife is an overwhelming majority of ONE major group who give cohesian to the overall community. Example Hungary is like 85% Hungarian ethnically, as are most of the European ‘tribal’ states. Bulgaria, Romania etc.

I want our emergency services NOT to have to consult a ‘Culture’ manual each time they deal with an emergency. People who come here, come to ‘our’ culture :)

Bamboo-zled, You call her a "warrior" in jest, but the jest is on you! "She prefers food done in her own cultural way"/ "We have adapted to rice". My God, Bamboo-zled, do you have any idea what danger you're in? This little warrior-witch is undermining, nay subverting, your Aryan Cultural Dominance in the most basic way - from the inside out!

When was the last time you had REAL Aussie tucker, by which I mean a Maccas or a KFC in case you've forgotten what REAL Aussie food is? My God man, Austrayans fought and died in 2 world wars resisting the menace of the chopstick! And here you are with your namby-pamby "We have adapted to rice-based meals"!

Where is your Ethnic Pride, O Great Aryan Warrior? You are being Ethnically Cleansed from the inside out! As the "race riots" are getting ready to roll, as Our Great Nation is coming under attack by the Mutant Muslim Hordes of Al-Lakemba, and we're all in danger of being stuffed to the gills with homos and tabouli, we look to you, O Great Leader and Prophet of Jehovallah (O my God, What have I just said? I meant Jehovah. Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah!) to save us from these perils. Instead, you stand before us, a hollow man, a weak man, stuffing yourself with...rice. Is there no hope for this country?

Good one Strewth :)

Yes Tao....I have to agree :)

Strewth, if nothing else..has an incredible way with words...

I sometimes think he is an 'Islamic incarnation' of Pericles :)

Strewthy.... you really struggle when you cannot squeeze me into that little 'white supremacist' pidgeon hole eh :)

I think I'll place Strewth up a couple of notches on my prayer list.. he would be an asset indeed if his mind was transformed by Jesus.

Then, he could whack me with verses and I'd LISTEN to him :) because I'd know they were coming from the heart rather than the mind.

blessings to all

Bamboozled,

I'd be wasting my time trying to pidgeon-hole a goose. Nor can your 'mind' be transformed by Jesus. You don't have one. That only leaves the heart, and I discern neither heart nor soul in your vile, narcissistic rantings.

Dear Strewth....

I'll reflect on your criticisms... which are always welcome. I'm sure there are many deficiencies in my life.

Hope things are well with you.

Bamboozled.

Hezbollah can be destroyed but it requires forcing a conventional war. The Romans had a similar problem with Zealots. Terrorists in a broader community. The conventional war solution would require innocents to be killed en-mass, so is no on the table for us. But might not deter Israel, if push comes shove.

Hezabollah is as a big danger to the legimate Lebanese government as were the Chinese warloards to 1912-1920 China.

Mao (terrorist) and the KMT (conventional) war against Japan. A UN presence with teeth and a Lobanese government serious about rooing out Hezbollah might have a chance? But what of Iran? It's problematic, for sure.

Bamboozled,

So glad you admit it.

Strewth....I've reflected :)

Rantings ? I'm sure at times my outpourings seem like this.

Definition:

"To utter or express with violence or extravagance"

I think this is going too far. I don't advocate 'violence' for its own sake, nor do I recognize it as anything other than a last resort, after peaceful initiatives have been exausted. Most of my sweeping statements of 'final solutions' are predicated by the term "Human Solutions", as opposed to the best solution which is for all concerned to embrace Christ as Saviour and Lord.

"Narccissistic".... 'self love' 'total exclusion of all except that which caters for and panders to that self love/promotion.

Again... a bit more than I'll admit to. Don't confuse "Boldness" with Narccissism, or you will have to agree that this term describes yourself. The confidence and boldness which I exibit is not on my own behalf, but the goal is the illumination of heart and mind to the root cause of human conflict which is alienation from God.

My references to 'Australian' culture and values etc... is not 'ethnocentrism' but simple recognition of social and human reality. Again, the goal is to diminish the sources of conflict.

So, having now reflected, I must reject the description 'Narccissistic rangings' as applied by you to me.

I hope you will do similarly and re-consider your own position in the light of historical,psychologocal,spiritual and human reality.
All the best.
Must have a coffee and a chat some time :)

Bamboozled,

Ranter it is. I can guarentee no one will contradict me on this.

Your 'theology', which is to say, your ideology, like that of all zealots, is based on US vs THEM, not on any universal moral code such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which applies to everyone on this planet. It is premised on division & the subordination of everyone defined by you as THEM. It's also profoundly narcissistic because you believe that YOUR beliefs are the only possible beliefs for the rest of us. What you call 'Australian ' culture & values has no monopoly on living ethically. Your ideology particularly s**s me because it aids & abets the endless persecution of an entire people, whose only crime was to be born on a particular patch of ground, by another group of people as deluded and narcissistic in their 'thinking' as yourself. Bamboozled, if 'God' wants the Palestinians out of Palestine, I really don't think he'll need YOUR assistance in turfing them out.

Dear Strewth

The PLO tried to create insurrection in Jordan and actually take over a sovereign country.
They also fermented bloodshed and slaughter in Jordan on a massive scale, making them just as 'bad' as the Israelis.

They further indulged in genocide and ethnic cleansing of Damour Lebanon to the tune of 500+ dead and 24500 ethnically cleansed.

No matter which way you slice the cake, they seem as bad if not worse than any other 'unjust' mob you point to.

The point is, mankind is alienated from our Creator. ALL mankind.

The UN declaration on human rights is to be honest an exercise in futility. It was created as far as I can see by those who live in total isolation from the power realities of the real world.

Declaring the 'declaration' binding...does not make it so. What makes it so or not so is power.

Perhaps I should refrain from supporting any particular side, and we will get along better ? I am on the side which seeks redemption of human hearts.. that solution does not depend on 'power' but on humble acceptance of our sinful and alienated condition, and recognition that only in Christ will it be solved. As much for the Jew as for the Gentile.

These truths are to be accepted or rejected, but NEVER to be imposed because they cannot be. Your choice appears at this time to be 'reject'. You have my sympathy, and prayer.

cheers mate.

Bamboozled,

1) The PLO only came into existance in response to a total failure by the UN/world community to restore basic Palestinian rights. The PLO, like ALL such political/military organisations, has a a career which must be seen in the CONTEXT of the time & place in which it operates.

2) You take events out of their historical context and ignore what doesn't suit your agenda.

3) You rely on partisan Zionist websites for your disinformation. I can guarantee you've NEVER read a single BOOK which attempts to deal with these issues objectively. If so, name it.

4) You spruik for the real bullies & genocide merchants without any qualms whatever, and only cry foul at the resistance of their victims. Your morals are therefore highly suspect.

5) Your religious views are between YOU & your God, ie, strictly private. They should not be a prism through which to judge others. If 'God' is everything he's cracked up to be, he'll sort us out in his own good time. He doesn't need your help. Moreover, Palestinians are NOT bit players in your private fantasies. They have their own REAL problems, far greater than anything you could possibly imagine and to which you contribute on a daily basis by spruiking for their abusers.

6) You also do no service to mankind by belittling international law - it is the only thing we've got against the law of the jungle, for which you routinely advocate.

7) Diversity, not uniformity, is the name of the human game. If you expect a diverse world, including me, to conform to your world view, think again. You are wasting your time. If you are genuinely NOT afraid of another point of view, then sit down and read The Gun & the Olive Branch by British journalist, David Hirst, perhaps the best general overview of the Palestine problem around. The Bible is NOT in any way a reliable source for understanding the travails of the contemporary Middle East.

Strewth

That was probably your best rebuttal of BD's spurious arguments thus far. However, am very fed up with the name-calling - makes you-all look like children.

There is without a doubt much fault on both sides. Yet people who point this out are judged as anti-semitic or bleeding hearts or lefties or all of the above.

Palestinians have as much right to a state as do Israelis. If Israel could return to its original borders, this would be a big step towards peace. For people claim that ALL palestinians want the demise of Israel is as absurd as it is inflammatory. Moderate people of all political stripes want to live in peace, it is the extremists on both sides who inflame the situation. There is no point in trying to reason with the likes of BD - he cannot think past the bible - he is very unsophisticated in his world view.

Have an interesting link as regards Hezbollah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5291420.stm

"Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war."

Imagine a fundy evangelist christian or zionist apologising.............have qualified this as I know there are plenty of reasonable christians and jews - we just don't hear enough from them.

Dear Strewth
Your points.

1/ How a group came into existence can NEVER justify genocide but I do accept ethnic cleansing as a better option in the long run. In order for an ethnically cleansed people to be deserving of sympathy, they must not treat others as they were treated. But my point there in any case was the universality of 'sin' or wrong doing.

2/ Context ? Actually all I'm doing is GIVING the fuller context, rather than being selective. I don't deny what has happened to the Palestinians, I just show THEM as they really are also. 'human'.

3/ The 'real' bullies ? *cough*... Resistance ? *wide eyed look* murdering 500+ innocent people ...mothers, children, granny's is not exactly 'resistance' mate.. get real. Seeking to overturn a State (JOrdan) is not 'resistance' its called insurrection.

4/ International Law ? I'm just being brutally realistic and honest about how it really is. Law without power simply does not exist. Unless you refer to divine revelation. That exists by itself. Human law is based on who has the guns.. ask the police :) Sad..but true.

5/ The book ? I don't really need to read it. If it shows 'Israelis harsh, brutal at times, ruthless at times, I can accept that. But if it shows 'PLO all good' I cannot accept that because it simply is not true.

Scout was both right and wrong. Your polemic against my position was very weak, her comment about all sides having things to answer for was totally correct.

Tell us more about 'you' ? :) In Melbourne ? If yes, I'll alert you about next time I do an activist operation at RMIT or MELBOURNE Uni, and you can come discuss with me. Now that would be nice right ?

If I have a rally at the State Library I could give you first speech I'll take second.

Scout,

You are so right about Bamboozled. "I don't really need to read it," says it all. Why, oh why, didn't I listen to that immortal advice: Never gamble with a guy called Jake, never eat at a place called Mum's, but most of all, NEVER, ever discuss a serious matter with a zealot.

Never again!

Strewthy

all your last post shows is that you are as 'bigoted' in your views as you consider I am in mine.

I've nailed my colors to the mast on numerous occasions.

Insistence on seeing the full picture in overall historical context is hardly a 'closed minded zealot'. But seeing things in a narrow, specific context which is structured towards and suits a particular purpose.....now thats getting close to the closed minded situation.

Just because I disagree with your approach to the 'Palestinians' and in so doing I highlight their OWN atrocities.... I'm a 'zealot' ?

Well.. I probably am, as I wrote in passionate terms to both the Premier and Opposition leader this morning after I found THIS in the Age... where an Islamic group is doing everything that 2 pastors in Melbourne are being SUED for.. and claiming free speech... (They are in Sydney)
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/islamist-group-denies-hateincitement-charges/2006/08/28/1156617274970.html

They (Hizb Ut Tahir) said "exposing realities" did not incite hatred.
GOOD..

1/ Mohamed was a murderer.
2/ Mohamed tortured and mutilated bodies of living prisoners.
3/ MOhammed was a sexual adventurer and under our law would be considered guilty of child molestation.
4/ The religion of Mohamed allows for on going rape of captive slave girls.

They (Hizb)said: "Rather, what incites hatred is the spilling of the blood of innocent men, women and children … at the hands of the Israelis."

ISRAELIS = 'JEWS'...and in Victoria THAT IS VILIFICATION. So.. my campaign to rid us of this Act continues. I would rather they are free to hang themselves with their own words, than all of us be under 'Sharia law by stealth'.......