"Who will have the courage to break this cycle?"

I would also add "Who will have the imagination to break this cycle?".

Our current leaders are bereft of vision. They cannot imagine a world different to the one they are used to. There is no Mandela like leader in the world currently.

The same predictable, tired old responses, masquerading as 'strength' and 'toughness' will achieve the same tired old outcomes, and the cycle of violence will continue.

That is unless we, the voters, actually demand a different type of leadership.

A good leader simply cannot see the world through eyes of compassion and continue to position or improve their respective countries.

Do you think the third world has loyalty to those countires who give, or work with them? NOPE. Especially without us being a Muslim nation, we will always be on the outer with much of them.

Do you think that by giving goodwill to our neighbours we will improve our position, or do you think Karma will spare us when it all hits the fan?

I agree, what a wonderful world we would have if we all as nations had the same giving attitude and shared the same visions of equality and the like. But when you are in the mix with over a hundred nations with their internal problems overridding any initiative to change or use new mindsets, if we act like that we will squander the position that as a nation we have worked to achieve, and it would endanger our longevity and our own lifestyles.

You give to those who either appreciate it, or who would rociprocate if the tables turned. The bulk of the world does not fit in this category, so neither should we.

I do not want to loose what we have worked for by giving it all away, especially when we have so many internal issues that we should focus on and get our own house in order first.

I wonder if modern technology makes killing technically both easier and politically expedient? My grandfather's war was fought in close combat. He saw the fear in the enemy's young eyes and was aware of the mad lust to kill in his own blood. It probably sent him mad afterwards. Nowadays, computers plot the action - combatants may only feel the "light bump to the plane" as they depress the remote button.

It is hard not to disagree with Katharina Weiss, "To fight wars we have to deny our own and others’ humanity." Except that I would extend 'fight' to 'start' and 'maintain' because the combatants are 'only' obeying someone else's mad orders.

Faced with the mere statistics of deaths and casualties, and not the close up of body parts and the bereaved, it's easier for politicians to have the courage to be aggressively militaristic. If political leaders were obliged rutinely to visit the battlegrounds and speak to the families of the dead and maimed, they might come to see the truth of Katharina's maxim that "compassion takes more courage than war".

If political leaders were, as a matter of course, obliged to give a full account to an international court of their decisions to take their nation to war, they might have more respect for the principle that war is an absolute last resort, to be engaged only in the face of a clear and imminent threat to basic human rights and life.

Tell it to the Islamic terrorists, dearie.

‘Compassion’ does take more courage than war: its means that you will probably die at the hands of your non-compassionate enemy.

And, remember, ‘compassion’ is not necessarily a positive thing. Have a look at Roget’s to see the negative aspects of compassion – ‘weak’, ‘indulgent’, ‘soft’, ‘permissive’.

And leave ‘gods’ out of the equation. Islam is a cover for politics, as was Christianity before it was wrenched out of the dark ages. Also, give George Bush a rest. Have a think about the way the Islamic fascists describe the West and democracy. Calling the Islamic world an ‘axis of evil’ is pretty mild, given the intention of Islam. Islam is the main threat to world peace, not George Bush or the US.

Would you be allowed to talk such twaddle if from the other side?

You also mention the good old standby, ‘cheap petrol’ as a motive for war. Please let us know where you are buying your ‘cheap’ petrol.

Judging by your photograph, you still have time to get in touch with the reality of life. You will be much better off pinning your hopes on George Bush than on an exiled lama and a Burmese woman permanently under house arrest.

Leigh, throwing insults at a women contributor ("dearie"), at Islam in general ("a cover for politics"), the young ("judging by your photograph") and world-respected peace activists ("an exiled lama and a Burmese woman permanently under house arrest") may be your idea of a contribution to a debate on a serious issue; but I think you are likely to alienate reasonable people.

But then, why should you care what I think? You probably feel better with that bile out of your system.

Kath,
you are absolutely right;

unfortunately 'realists' do not understand that compassion and forgiveness is actually *the only strategy* that can be effective.

Those >>realists<< claim that
>>A good leader simply cannot see the world through eyes of compassion and continue to position or improve their respective countries.

Then blindly follow those heartless and brainless 'leaders' to slaughter others or be slaughtered...

Why can’t they really see, that with their primitive ‘let’s hit them hard’ responses they are just perpetuating the cycle of violence?

Regards

Paul
www.creativewinwin.com

Katharina, it is true that one’s volition is critical, that good can come only from action taken with wisdom and compassion. It is also true, as the Buddha said, that hatred can not be overcome by hatred; it can be overcome only by the cessation of hatred (in each individual). But that does not preclude strong action, sometimes strong action is necessary. The issue is whether those leaders who take strong action do so with wisdom and compassion, the role of those who can see clearly is to help others see clearly.

I saw Aung San Suu Kyi interviewed by Maxine McKew, and she seemed to epitomise Buddha Dhamma in practice. As a leader, she has rallied support against the evil Burmese junta; but she has no hatred for the Burmese junta, only compassion, seeking to overturn the actions which harm both the junta and others but not to harm those in the junta, never being cowed by her opponents. But that is not to say that, if she were the leader of a country under attack from fanatical ideologues with whom there can be no dialogue, she would necessarily turn the other cheek. Acting with all wisdom and compassion, she might (I don’t know) find it necessary to resist as well as sending metta (loving-kindness) to all concerned.

In your own case, you might ask whether you are applying the same standards to all parties, there’s just a suggestion in your article that those in the west are more culpable than, say, Hezbollah which for six years has been building up its capacity to attack and provoke Israel, which is responding to this broader threat rather than the immediate issue of two soldiers being snatched (which may well have been a deliberate provocation).

Faustino,
the tragedy is that *both* sides see themselves being victims and *both sides* committ atricities.

Both sides focus on others' faults and crimes and use it to justify their own ruthlessness.

both sides are prisoners of their own perception, their own agression; as a result they provoke even more aggression.

that's the tragedy.

Perpetuating agression is not good for anyone.

P.

Sadly, Leigh was on the money. The world is the way it is.

Those who choose violence to achieve their ends, can only be opposed by those prepared to resist by violence. It’s tragic, but it is a reality confirmed by history.

Ms Weiss reference to the fall of the Berlin wall actually undermines her argument. The Berlin wall didn’t fall because of peaceful resistance, it fell because of the collapse of the Soviet Union’s political and economic system, which in turn was a consequence of the incredibly wasteful and costly arms race. Only because the USA demonstrated a willingness to match Soviet militarism, was peace maintained. The best way to prevent war is to prepare for it.

Ms Weiss’s comment “love, compassion and non-violence are at the heart of religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism” leaves me wondering at her sources. Read the Koran and you will find that love and compassion is only reserved for those who follow Islam. For others there is only contempt. Her suggestion that violence is not a part of Islam is naive in the extreme. Read the Koran!

It is all well and good to take the moral high ground and claim to be against killing babies, but leaders who choose war aren’t always choosing violence over peace, rather they are often choosing violence now in the hope of preventing violence later. The opposite pacifist choice would be an acceptance of the preventable later violence.

It follows that by their failure to act, pacifists kill babies too!

The Western world is seeing the outcome of compassion in the undermining of its authority by the very 'refugees' it took pity on.
It would be so nice if the world could live happily ever after but unfortunately that only happens in fairy tales.
One side of the world could go on giving and giving, the other side taking and taking .That would be self defeating on both sides.

Leigh, despite your condescending and blatantly sexist remarks, Katharina has a much better understanding of reality than you do. Your attitude has prevailed for years and certainly prevails now, hence the war-ridden state of the world.

Compassion, turning the other cheek, and talking and empathising with your enemy (something your bible strongly advocates) is far more difficult than war mongering, Leigh.

You simply have problems thinking outside the square Leigh, perhaps it a result of all that pent up bitterness inside of you that becomes very obvious in many of your posts.

Good article Katharina, your innovative thinking is much more akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ than any of the Christian fundamentalists that inhabit this forum.

History is littered with peace activists, do-gooders and bleeding hearts; yet the world in the 21st Century remains dangerous, cruel and unfair. It is still wise to get your boot on the other fellow’s neck before he does it to you.

In the past we saw a few strong men and women with the will and ability to influence matters of social concern such as slavery and equal rights before the law. But the pale imitations of them, two of whom have been referred to today, have achieved absolutely nothing except cult status from naïve adulators who think that they have just discovered something that the rest of us didn’t know.

Who else can we throw in? Nelson Mandela is hailed as a hero, but what has he done for black Africans in any practical way? Nothing. Black South Africans are no better off. On the other hand, one of Mandela’s legacies is the current President – a black president who stormed out of a public gathering when a tiny, black African boy pleaded with him to do more against the AIDS epidemic.

All that these peace-preachers do is make us weak. As long as there is Islam, there will be no peace in the world; and, for all of you who don’t like what I say, the terrorists you want to go soft on will not differentiate between you and me when the time comes

History is littered with the fossils of our ancestors. Since Arcane times, creatures great and small have killed and been consumed in their turn. The whole lifespring has been a battle for lebenstraum. A battle for energy.

That's fine if you're a cockroach. Act in character. Be a good cockroach. Nothing wrong with that. Cockroaches are fine and noble creatures - survivors. What are humans, but cockroaches in a different guise.

Scuttle into the light, then duck into the shadows again. Trust no-one. Look for clues, the colour, the accent, the gesture, the ancestry. Avoid foreigners - only cockroaches need apply. Danger, danger. Scuttle, scuttle. Survival is paramount.

When contemplating all of these things, Charles Darwin pondered upon the reason for the development of the human brain. He surmised that we may be a break with the old Arcane rules of evolution. A truly new creature. A turning point. A wholly new paradigm.

How disappointing, Leigh.

Mark Regev just did another interview with Kerry O'Brien and when Kerry asked him about the deaths in Lebanon he said he didn't know about them really but there had been lots of deaths in Israel.

Lets look at that statement. Israel 149 deaths, 40 of them civilians.
Lebanon - 1140 deaths, over 1,000 civilians.
Palestine - 170 deaths, mostly civilians.

Regev sees only the Israelis. Now he is an interesting character. Gained his bachelors of history and defence in Melbourne and before November 2004 was the Israeli Ambassador in the US. Before that he had not lived in Israel from 1991 onwards.

So it would seem that he left before Hezbollah became the political party and soclal welfare agency that helped build hospitals, schools, clinics and such in the south of Beirut with a tiny armed wing that grew after 1994.

All he knew was that he left when Lebanon was over run by Israeli soldiers and the christians were paid by the Israelis to murder the shi'ites. 22,000 people were slaughtered and an 18 year occupation.

Gideon Levy in the Haaretz claims the whole thing is about the land and water, Seymour Hersh says it was all planned with Bush, Cheney and co. much earlier than stated, certainly before the 2 soldiers.

How many people believe that the loss of over 100 more Israeli soldiers was just to get back two others?

Hmmm. Katharina, while people like Regev with their amoral certainty are in control there will be no compassion.

Marilyn Hmmmmmm. Who honestly believes that Iran did not direct Hezbollah to set in motion the events that lead to this war to deflect the growing concern the UN about its nuclear program?
Same as when they started the little issue about the Danish cartoons just when a new country was to take over the chairmanship of the UN group dealing with the same issue......Denmark.

Very true, kindness and compassion is true religion: Ubi caritas et amor - Deus ibi est!

I do not support the attitude of General Dan Halutz. I support his actions, but not his attitude.

There are times, hopefully not too often, when compassion dictates painful action, there are situations when the most compassionate act is to kill a villain, freeing that villain from his cruel existence and the accumulation of more horrendous karma.

There are times, and even the Dalai Lama would acknowledge it, when the religious duty, the dharma of those naturally born and destined to uphold and protect society, the kshatrias, is to fight and kill, weep and shoot, shoot and weep, and pray for the departed souls of even their worst and ugliest enemies, then apologize to their widows crying "sorry, but we could not do better, we had no choice".

In the last war, civilians died on both sides. The number of Lebanese casualties was not as high as claimed because most of them were Hezbullah fighters, and unlike Hezbullah, Israel never deliberately targeted civilians, but still, each and every soul is a whole world and my heart is torn for those unfortunate Lebanese hostages who were caught in the fighting.

Shiite mothers of Lebanon: your pain today is great. If that can be any comfort and consolance, your sons are now in a better place than where they were before this war.

I sincerely hope that this war has been the last and from now on the people of Israel and Lebanon, who have common interests and not even any dispute between them, will live in peace forever.

I'm sure it was misguided compassion, from the bleeding hearts, that led to the hounding out of office, of the Smith government in Rhodesia.
I am also sure that there are a couple of million people in Zimbabwe, who wish the bleeding hearts had kept their compassion to themselves.
Of course, they never learn. They'd do it again, [& are doing it], because its the "right" thing to do.
God help us.

Leigh “Tell it to the Islamic terrorists, dearie”

Agree – Appeasement has never worked, the appeasers have always ended up being annihilated by the aggressor.

The real “Courage” is to attempt to deploy warfare on a limited manner as Israel has. Although, the Israelis need to reserve the option to extend their military endeavours to whatever degree they see as needed for security of their state against an (inept) aggressor.

As for “History is littered with peace activists, do-gooders and bleeding hearts;” –

Yep, a lot are buried in neat grave yards whereas the men who fought to defend the appeasers right to choose where to be buried were lost on the field of battle, no bits left to bury.

Hasbeen, Zimbabwe – it is strange, after 15 years of trade sanctions the Smith-Southern-Rhodesia economy and social fabric of the nation (all races) was many time better and stronger than the subsequent 26 years of unfettered Mugabe-Zimbabwe corruption.

Strangely, one of the interesting things I heard when in South Africa whilst it was still sufferingfrom apartheid. Africans were cueing up to go to work under the tyranny of apartheid from countries like Tanzania, Malawi and Botswana because the ineptitude of supposed democratic black government in those countries produced inferior outcomes for living than the oppression of apartheid.

The problem is, do-gooders and bleeding hearts do not put food in bellies.

The recurring theme in the arguments of the Jew hating trendy lefties is this. "If you can not think up an argument based upon logic, try one based upon some amorphous moral ideal." Katrina's rant fits that formulae like a glove.

The Israeli pilot did have compassion and humanity, Katrina. He had comapassion and humanity for his own women and children who were cowering in bomb shelters from incoming Katyuska rockets fired from Lebanon. He wanted to stop that from happening and he had to kill the people who are openly declaring their intention of exterminating his country.

The idea is so simple that even you should be able to figure it out, Katrina. If the Arabs stop shooting at the Israelis, the Israelis will stop shooting back at them. How on earth you can go into bat for a bunch of terrorists and their civilian supporters, and then portray the victims as the problem, is beyond me. Maybe when one of them blows an airliner out of the sky which you are sitting in, then you might figure it out in the five minutes it takes for your aeroplane to impact with the ground.

We all live in hope.

In stillness and silence there are no wars. If the Americans, rather than lashing out with all their might after the atrocity of 9/11, instead had received the sympathy offered by the rest of the world with grace and asked all countries to have a day of silence on the subsequent aniversaries, I am sure most would have gone along with such an idea.

If the whole world could STOP, just for one day, everyone reflecting together, in silence, what it really means to be and to act peacefully towards each other - true progress would be much swifter. Sadly, the current American administration, desiring a 'quick win' and a display of 'superior' might, prefers to flaunt this catastropy, at any opportunity, to justify and garner support for their violent, self-interested foreign policy.

I think Katharina speaks for the vast majority of 'ordinary' people in the world, who would prefer to solve problems by compassionately arriving at a shared understanding of our common needs, than the few who would impose their 'authority' through violence. Unfortunately, for some, this can be perceived as 'passivity' and 'inaction'. It is not by chance that patience is a required virtue on the non-violent path. But patience can be cultivated in abundance. We will get there - its a given.

In stillness and silence there are no wars. If the Americans, rather than lashing out with all their might after the atrocity of 9/11, received the sympathy offered by the rest of the world with grace and asked all countries to have a day of silence on the subsequent aniversaries, I am sure most would have gone along with such an idea.

If the whole world could STOP, just for one day, everyone reflecting together, in silence, what it really means to be and to act peacefully towards each other - true progress would be much swifter. Sadly, the current American administration, desiring a 'quick win' and a display of 'superior' might, prefers to flaunt this catastropy, at any opportunity, to justify and garner support for their violent, self-interested foreign policy.

I think Katharina speaks for the vast majority of 'ordinary' people in the world, who would prefer to solve problems by compassionately arriving at a shared understanding of our common needs, than the few who would impose their 'authority' through violence. Unfortunately, for some, this can be perceived as 'passivity' and 'inaction'. It is not by chance that patience is a required virtue on the non-violent path. But patience can be cultivated in abundance. We will get there - its a given.

Frank wistfully said :

"It is hard not to disagree with Katharina Weiss, "To fight wars we have to deny our own and others’ humanity."

Kevin said:

"In stillness and silence there are no wars"

also

"I think Katharina speaks for the vast majority of 'ordinary' people in the world, who would prefer to solve problems by compassionately arriving at a shared understanding of our common needs"

Hmmmmm.......

It is only from a Western post modern, socialist,idealistic (but unrealistic) view of life, and a relative peace from the last major conflict, that such views could be expressed and actually be believed.

The question I ask is this:

When a large chunk of the human race has developed a set of social/religious values and statehood based on a serial killer who surrounded himself with women for his sexual and political pleasure and convenience, one of whom was 9 when he went INTO her,.. a man who MUTILATED living people, by thrusting a hot iron into their eyes, carving off their hands and feet, leaving them to die slowly in hot desert sun, and a man who thought nothing of murdering men for such 'brutal sins' as 'writing offensive poetry'..... who claimed 'Divine Right' to 'The world and all that is in it'..... I am not optimistic that such a group of people, will ever sympathize with the ideas expressed above from our rather naive and uninformed friends on OLO.

On the contrary, such a group of people, are more likely to see things entirely differently from the rest of us 'ordinary folk'.

The challenge for informed people today, is the re-educate the likes of our brethren above, (Frank, Kevin, The author, Marilyn etc) concerning the unimaginable threat posed by such people as a community to OUR freedom. I say 'as a community' because they will use every political/legal means to re-shape Australia in terms of those values. Who would do otherwise ?

There remains for us, the task of defending our freedom and culture from such cultural aggression and religous fascism.

Please read the following report from The Guardian, in which Seymour Hirsch dumps on the neoconmen. Drink deep from the well of truth.

The neoconmen love you, because you are so busy fighting your cockroach skirmishes, that you are blind to their strategies. Both the US and Israel are pawns of the neoconmen, who lurch like golems towards the oil and water resources of the Middle East, using someone else's children as their dupes.

*

"The veteran investigative journalist Seymour Hersh writes in the current issue of the New Yorker magazine that Israeli government officials travelled to the US in May to share plans for attacking Hizbullah.

Quoting a US government consultant, Hersh said: "Earlier this summer ... several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, 'to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear'."

The Israeli action, current and former government officials told Hersh, chimed with the Bush administration's desire to reduce the threat of possible Hizbullah retaliation against Israel should the US launch a military strike against Iran. "A successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign ... could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations," sources told Hersh.

Yesterday Mr Hersh told CNN: "July was a pretext for a major offensive that had been in the works for a long time. Israel's attack was going to be a model for the attack they really want to do. They really want to go after Iran."

An unnamed Pentagon consultant told Hersh, "It was our intention to have Hizbullah diminished and now we have someone else doing it."

*

Think about it. Who is the enemy of your children?

Wow, look at the bitter sniping between the posters. How can we expect national leaders to be real leaders when so many posters write so bitterly.

The author is right in what she says. However, while society continues to sell the souls of everyone away for a fistful of dollars, there is no hope of peace. Not to forget certain leaders who keep pushing their religion is superior.

Maybe there is only one leader who speaks directly with God. When other people say such things, we throw them into Psychiatric hospitals.

May I offer this quote from Jim Wallis' book 'The Soul of Politics';

"Peacemaking can resolve conflicts. However, it cannot establish empires, maintain hegemony, gain unfair control of land and resources, seek advantage over others, and sustain unjust systems of economic production and distrubution. War does those things best. Indeed they require war, and that's why it has been so popular with the world's superpowers. To overcome war, therefore, we must attack the unjust systems that are dependent on military force and lead to aggression. Peacemaking is much more than resolving conflicts; it is the commitment to overcome the injustice that creates conflicts."

It does not take much imagination to see what needs to be done by Israel if it wants any chance of living in peace.

Chris Shaw

could you answer me a simple question ?

Who....is the GOOD GUY in all this ? You are claiming the Americans are the enemies of our grandchildren.....then who... are their friends ? Care to humor us with a few names ?

Do you just mean the same country with different leadership ? or.... please elaborate.

You make out like the planning of an attack scenario on Hezbollah is a 'bad' thing .... do you really believe that ?

They have shown (Like Hamas) they wish to 'remove the zionist entity'
Not just from South Lebanon but FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
Am I correct or not ?

So, I'm at a bit of a loss to know where you are coming from ? x 100

Just 'who' is the good guy, our political messiah, our savior, and when you provide the name (for the ideology or identity) please then support it with illustrations from history where said Ideology has worked.

How about that ?

Perhaps I can make it easier.

USA under Republicans GOOD/BAD
USA under Democrats GOOD/BAD
ISRAEL under ANYone GOOD/BAD
HAMAS GOOD/BAD
HEZBOLLAH GOOD/BAD
IRAN GOOD/BAD
SYRIA GOOD/BAD
PLO GOOD/BAD

Csteele,

You say "It does not take much imagination to see what needs to be done by Israel if it wants any chance of living in peace."

Whilst Hamas and Hizbullah maintain the destruction of Israel as their explicit objective, a precondition of peace for Israel is the destruction of these organisations.

It was with hope and a sense of relief that I read Katharina's article yesterday, it is with resignation when I read the insults flung at her for the temerity of suggesting a better way than constant war.

Those who claim that compassion does not put food in their bellies really need to rethink farming.

Those who snipe at an author's sex as being relevant to their argument clearly have personal problems.

Those who see everything in terms of black and white or good and bad are probably best treated kindly and given a cup of hot milk before being tucked into bed.

Those who believe that Israel is justified forget that there are those who believe exactly the same applies to Hezbollah. It takes at least two to make a war.

As the vitriol expressed by those who justify constant war reveals - it takes a lot of courage to speak out in favour of peace, compassion and working towards harmony. It also takes intelligence. Any moron can pull a trigger, it takes skill to aim for peace.

I commend all who took the time to seriously reflect upon Katharina's thoughts and hope that those who believe war creates peace will eventually realise just how wrong they are.

For Israel, 50 years of war has only created more enemies.
For terrorists more terror will only create more horror for themselves.
For the USA and its allies, greed continues to corrupt.

For the rest of us - we need to speak out in favour of peace at every opportunity, starting with this forum and taking it with us into our everyday lives.

Good for you Scout - a voice for sanity and a voice of reason among a mob of shouters. It takes no courage at all to rant and rave; but a quiet plea for a better way than war is a voice of wisdom.

Scout,

I admire your persistence and the voice of reason and sanity on these forums.

All the best,

FH

Scout,

You make the tired old pacifist line: "It takes at least two to make a war."

The sad truth is that it takes two to make peace. If only one side chooses not to fight, you don't get peace, you get a massacre.

Scout,

well said. Even if the belligerents don't agree.

MIDDLE EAST WAR - TERRITORIAL DOGFIGHT
IT IS OVER CONTROL OF THE LAND. wars are not about intolerance and lack of compassion. Therefore you cannot stop war by beng tolerant and compassionate. They should change the term ethnic cleansing to territorial massacre and then we would more accurately see that man at the tribal level is dangerously territorial. Man like every species on earth has two big survival instincts. The first is the sexual mating instinct and the second is the territorial instinct. Mankind is programmed to insure the survival of his biological offspring that being his children, his extended family and his tribe to who he is biologically related through tribal intermarriage.

Thus we had a territorial massacre in Germany
A territorial massacre in Somalia
A territorial massacre in Rwanda
A territorial massacre in Bosnia
A territorial massacre in East Timor
The IRA fought a bloody territorial campaign for control of Ireland
Sunnis and Shiites fighting territorial war over Iraq
Tribes in multi-tribal countries demand separtist states like
Chechyna in Russia and then the massacres start.
I see suicide bombing as a form of ethnic cleansing that is trying to kill members of the other tribe and remove them form the territory. War has been over the land all across history no matter what nice sounding political or religious reasons were used for the killing. Religions are tribes at the biological level because they don't marry outside of their religions.

David B, you have probably figured out by now that I am an irreligious person, but not completely soulless - and I do read your postings - so I can't avoid being influenced by your sentiments. Isn't that the beauty of OLO?

- so let me go way out into orbit and come in again from left field (pretend we never met before).

Preface to my idea of WHODUNIT (gathering woolly thoughts):

I think that if a creator exists, it is equally distributed between all of us.

I think that the reason god hasn't manifested itself (to me, anyway) is because it cannot coagulate until we learn to coagulate.

If I were god, that's how I would play hide and seek with my children. Only by truly coming together, could humans re-create me, re-gather me, re-make me better than ever. My life in their hands, theirs in mine.

In that unlikely event, something else would inevitably happen. The human race itself would undergo a deep change. Technocrats like me would call that leap - evolution.

I think the most fundamental forces in human society are those that draw us together and those that thrust us apart. I think we exist in a kind of equilibrium between the two. Maybe attraction = GOOD and repulsion = BAD if we wish to put our humpty-dumpty creator back together again. Despite being irreligious, I confess that the idea appeals to me very much.

The neocons are the living embodiment of the repulsive force. Their trademarks are fear, suspicion, security, barricades, superiority, ambition, wealth, pragmatism, power, war. Their purpose is to prevent the re-awakening of the power within us, because the parasitic bastards will lose their free lunch.

It simply doesn't matter where the neocons come from, or what religion they purport to uphold. They always come together in mutual understanding, be it across a banquet table or a bloody battlefield.

Yet they are few and we are many - and we will win - see if we don't.

Gee, what an interesting philosophy, Chris Shaw.

All of the problems on the world are caused by a race of people you call "neocons." And if "neocons" did not exist, then Muslims would not fly aeroplanes into Western buildings, rape and murder entire schools full of "neocon" little girls, blow up "neocons" on London buses, blow up bars in Bali full of partying "neocons", or fire katyushka rockets into "neocon" cities.

Uh huh. What it like down in the garden, dancing with the fairies?

Dear Chris
glad to hear you read my posts :) "My work is ALmost done" :)

Your response did not address my most important question, which is...

Who... do you point to as the Savior/Messiah of the world in terms of....

Political Ideology
Social Theory

That kind of thing..... I understood what you said about forces of repulsion and attraction, but your passion to verbally stomp the NeoCons suggests you have a very firm and clearly defined alternative.

PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US :)

Sharkfin actually summed the human situation up very well..'tribal/territorial'... he is learning :) *grin*

My alternative does not rest on any particular political ideology such as socialism or capitalism. Politically I can only see wisdom in a centrist position, a balance of social welfare and creative free enterprise. No party with the possible exception of Family First represents such a position that I can see.

Labor without the Unions would be good.
Coalition without the Economic rationalist/globalists would be good.
Greens.. from another planet
Dems.. who ?

I guess the Left of the Coalition marrying the Right of the Labor party would be my preferred political landscape.

But in the final analysis, I see hope only in Christ.. redeemed/renewed people in community.. aah..Robur..thats the taste :)

Can't hang around this morning, so this will have to be very brief.

David and Redneck, go back to fundamentals....

Are you the only two guys in the whole entire world who don't know that the neocons did 9-11? I mean, come on! Tell me you're joking!

One minute you see those nasty little raggeddy brown urchins as vermin under your feet. The next, you grant them supernatural powers.

Maybe you need to enlarge your websurfing just a little bit.

Back later.... Cheers

Chris Shaw,

Unfortunetly, they are not the only 2 guys in the world who can't see the truth about 911, most don't, but there are millions of people all over the world who are waking up and facing reality.

Anybody with a critical mind who examines the official story thouroughly will see that it does not add up, and that the most likely perpetrators of 911 were rogue elements from inside the Pentagon,with Rummy and the VP.

Keep spreading the word Chris Shaw! The truth WILL come out!

Dear Chris

Ok..this time I'll make it REALLy simple and a verrrrry short post :)

WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING for the solution to the dilemna of human conflict... in terms of political or social ideology ?

ENLIGHTEN US.... (repeated) PLEASE. (you seem to be avoiding this question mate)

Thats all... repeated again... please actually answer this time.
Cheers
BAMBOOZLE/BOZO/etc etc.. (refer strewth for extended list :)

Carl..9/11 are u guys for real ? (dials 'therapy 000' for Carl and Chris)

BD, LOL

Thanks for your concern about my mental health David. Much appreciated but I can assure you I am fine.

A couple of days after 9/11 someone close to me said that history will show that the US administration was responsible for the attacks, I wrote him off as being delusional.

About a year ago I heard these conspiracy theories were becoming popular, determined to prove the wackos wrong and put my mind at rest I started doing my research into the matter.

I read up on a lot of the theories and found that there was definitely something not quite right about the official story, but I figured there was some sort of explanation. So I started reading some of the few websites that take on the conspiracy theorists, point by point, and there rebuttals are even more implausible.

David, there is no PROOF that the administration was responsible, but look at the facts and think about it

FACT: Global architects Rummy, Cheney and co. had more to gain from 911 than anyone

FACT: The administration has consistently tried to halt a proper investigation of 911. There has been a lot of speculation about how WTC 7 collapsed in a professional demolition when it was not hit by an airplane, however the hefty 911 commission report DOES NOT EVEN MENTION WTC 7.

FACT: No black boxes were found in New York or Washington

FACT: Canada’s air defenses were scrambled before America’s on the morning of 9/11

I could go on and on David. You are obviously a smart man, I’m not going to try and change your ideology, I am only interested in the facts, and the facts about 9/11 are not known

so David B
You think my belief that all wars are territorial is too simplistic.

Democracy is not that common in history. For most of history mankind has been under the control of the warlords, these are the Kings, the emperors, the Shieks and dictators. These are dominant territorial males who rode in at the head of armies(territorial males) and took control of other peoples lands and countries. At one point in early England there were five kingdoms. Five of these males had staked out territories for themselves.

HITLER was an INSTRUMENT of the German people so that when the ethnic cleansing of the jews was done they could say Hitler did it we didnt. Six million Jews were killed or exiled in Germany. The Jews were very prosperous. They had nice homes and cars and furniture and jewellery and Bank Accounts. WHERE DID ALL THAT WEALTH GO? I'll bet the German soldiers had no sooner removed a Jewish family from their home than those same innocent? German people moved quietly in and took possession. THE TERRITORIAL SPOILS TO THE GERMAN PEOPLE MY DEARS!

When the Catholics were killing the Heretics in England they wanted control of England. How do you kill for territorial gain and still see your self as a good person. SIMPLE you make your enemy, Gods enemy and God actually sanctions the killing. Sound familiar in todays world INFIDEL?

When the Muslims say they want a Muslim state worldwide. They mean muslim as in Muslim offspring. Exactly the same as Hitler wanted a German State worldwide with blonde haired blue eyes Germans.

Racism is as a cough is to the flu. It is only a symptom of the more deadly underlying tetrritorial hostility. Like the aggression and intimidation a lion shows when another lion first comes onto its territory. If I was an out of space David Attenborough veiwing mankind from out of space I'd have no other option but to conclude that mankind is a territorial species.

The beauty of being human Sharkfin, is that we have the ability to reflect and through reflection understand. As our understanding evolves, we change our perception and subsequently, our behaviour. We've certainly changed a lot since 'caveman' times (some may also be right in thinking not - on some levels) haven't we?

Historically the bulk of mankind has behaved territorially, and probably the bulk of mankind today remains territorial (it certainly seems so in the 'Western' world, where all of my present experince of the planet lies), however, as more and more people realise the nonsense of such a world view, if peaceful cohabitation is our aim, a new collective understanding can emerge, and a new collective behaviour take hold. Humans can change, individually and (eventually) en masse. Its great being human.

... its called a paradigm shift.

Katherina Weiss

Why is it that Israel and the US were the only two examples that you gave for criticism? What about Al Qaida, Hezbollah, China and the Burma military regime? Should they not also have shown compassion?

And what did the Dalai Lama or Aung San Suu Kyi achieve? Tibet is now permanenetly a province of China and Burma is still run by a military dictatorship.

You also repeat the mantra that "Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers and more than 400 Lebanese civilians die as a result."

Israel was more concerned about thousands of missiles being accumulated by a group that had vowed its destruction, that was the main reason for its actions. You question the efficacy of the result. When the shouting dies down it will be realised that the flow of murderous missiles into South Lebenon has been stopped and Hezbollah no longer controls Lebanese sovereign territory.

Neville Chamberlain produced no favours for the world with his treaty with Hitler. The number of deaths would have been greatly reduced if the Allies had acted sooner. How much better off would Spain have been if the West had supported the republic?

Ghandi and Mandela were not facing fanatics glorifying martyrdom. That is the difference.

Back on this thread again. Carl, you hit the nail on the head. It was my wife Marlene who set out to do the very same thing, got the bug, then INSISTED I look at what she had found. Our lives changed from then on.

I need to talk about myself a bit if I may. I was born in a bombed-out town in England just after the war. Like most kids from that era, I have a huge collection of books about WWI and WWII. Churchill's speeches, general's memoirs, secret weapons, radar, Blechley Park - you name it. Go ahead, ask me about Spitfires and Stukas, Mosquitos and Komets. I have digested the lot.

- yet in all those years until very recently, it never occured to me to ask - WHY? Really, WHY!

It turns out that my whole life - our whole lives are but a narrative - a narrative that carefully avoids the underlying corporate and financial reasons for war. It NEVER had to be. It never HAS to be. It's time we put our foot on this big, fat slug. The time has come - a fight to the death, for the sake of our kids.

David B, this is a big, big topic that I am trying to learn even as we all write to each other. I think that this needs whole new threads of it's own, if we could fashion leading pieces that meet the criteria of OLO.

Cheers all.... XX

Chris,

I am currently in the process of writing an article on this topic in the hope OLO will publish it. But it is taking longer than I had hoped because I want the research to be meticulous.

But is OLO as gutless as the mainstream media? I certainly hope not.

I also plan on handing out leaflets at the release of hollywoods propaganda flix 'flight 93' and 'World Trade Center', on the bus the other day I noticed someone had spraypainted in very large letters 'watch loosechange' on a construction site

the movement has begun, we just need guys like BD on board, come on boaz!

SHARKY
I didn't say your post was simplistic at all...I commended it.

CHRIS
I detect a note of warmth in your last post :) and a bit of self revelation... "Innnnteresting" :)

You still haven't told me your 'solution' in terms of political or ideological methods, so I still await this final 'revelation'.....

As you said about Carl, you yourself hit the nail on the head in your question asking 'Why'..... and then clearly you dug deeper....

The 'Why' of most things is summed up in the story of Abraham and Lot and their herdsmen....its all the same.. so we agree on that point.

As for 9/11 (Carl... wake up me boy) 'Nothing' would surprise me, but on balance I can't see you guys spin having much cred. Its ok. I don't live or die on the outcome, and if 'They' turned out to be 'us' it simply confirms my usual mantra "All have sinned"..... and need the Savior.

Thank you, thank you, Chris Shaw and Carl.

By claiming that 9/11 was the work of the Pentagon, you are really making our "progressive" intelligensia readers wince. Don't forget, the trendies swallow the anti Israel line as a fashion statement to indicate their social position as people who are rooly, rooly intelligent. When you two come up with boners like that one, it must succeed in getting our Artz graduate types to re examine their fundamental attitudes. After all, they don't want to adopt the attitudes of people who are self evidently neuronally challenged. That would defeat the purpose.

Even Marilyn Shephard must be rolling her eyes and looking askance at you for that one. She probably wishes that you two would just go away and stop "helping" her.

I am glad that you two are not on my side.

Hey! Maybe you two really are on my side? If you are, then I think that your tactics are brilliant. Keep up the good work, boys.

DAVID BOAZ, I apologize, I actually took the time to read the posts more slowly and I realized my mistake before I actually read your protest. I admire your answers to some who seem to have an unrealistic view of the world. I was in a bit of a rush the other night and I just skimmed though too quickly. Sorry mate.

Sharkfin

To those who seem to only blame the Israelies for whats happening in Lebanon. It should be pointed out that the Arabs sided with Hitler in the second World War and plotted with his Generals to help them exterminate the Jews. THAT IS HISTORICAL FACT. After the war when the the British were in occupation of Palestine no country in the world, (including Australia), would take the huge number of Jewish refugees, ironical isnt it after they all condemned the Germans for nor wanting them in their country. The British to punish the Arabs for siding with Hitler granted the Jews a homeland in Palestine.

When the British pulled out of the Middle East all the Arab nations joined forces and attacked Israel. It was known as the six day war. Israel having learnt lessons from Hitler werent going to be ethnically cleansed again and they were armed and ready.
The Arabs were defeated in a short six days and Isreal occupied Gaza. The Arabs began using suicide bombers in Israel after they failed to defeat them in a headON battle protesting that Isreal had taken the Gazza strip off them.

Israel recently gave back the Gazza strip to bring peace but the Arabs really want all of Israel back, because they didnt want the Jewish homeland there in the first place. As soon as the British gave the exiled German Jews a homeland in the Middle East the stage was set for bloody territorial warfare. If they keep the peace force their for 10years as soon as they pull out it will just start all over again, especially as the population of the Arabs and the Jews grows largers and vies for more and more land and resources/

Katharina

It certainly requires less courage to talk about war and send others to fight the war than it does to take part in the war.

Reading some of the comments in reply to your article it seems that a lot of courage is required even to talk about compassion.