Dear Kvasir
not all of us would describe your views as 'progressive' (specially if they include the usual recipe for progressiveness) but on Marilyn you have a point.

Sadly, Marilyn has developed what I can only describe as some kind of emotional condition (probably yet to be described by medicine) in which she reacts to ANY conflict by taking the side of the 'bombed and blown up'.... If she was around during WWII I am quite confident she would have been ranting about the poor Nazi's and would be demonstrating outside POW camps in England.

She clearly has a compassionate heart, but an either uninformed or simply naive head. Her facts are always unbalanced and stacked to match her emotional condition, and even more sad, if her solutions were followed (hers is just 'stop') the outcome would be never decided, and become a running bleeding oozing ulcer between people in conflict.
Her only advice to them would be 'don't be mean' in spite of the reality of life that many people don't care one iota about whether they are 'mean' or not, as long as they impose their political or social regime on others with whom they are in conflict with.

She speaks of justice but without a divine reference point for the very idea of 'justice'. By not acknowledging the Almighty in her posts, she is left with humanity in all its machiavellian gyrations, and her plea's for everyone to be nice fall on deaf but powerful ears.

Nations will take the "I am mightier than you" approach, we Christians can only say "God is not mocked, whatever a man sows, he will also reap" (read the first 2 chapters of the book of Amos and then check the history of the cities/states he mentions and condemns for injustice)

In the mean time, nation will rise against nation, we must choose a side, as best we understand it to be in our personal interests and stay the course.

All protagonists are guilty – to choose sides is futile.

What must be achieved is peace – and that will never occur while Bush dithers and continues aid to Israel.

From Guardian at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1834553,00.html

"The US government dispensed $11bn of civil foreign assistance in 2004. Of this, Israel received $555m; the three poorest nations on earth - Burkina Faso, Sierra Leone and Niger - were given a total of $69m. (Additionally)…..last year Israel also received $2.2bn of military aid.

It does not depend economically on this assistance. …………. It manufactures many of its own weapons and buys components from all over the world……Israel uses it to obtain F-15 and F-16 jets; Apache, Cobra and Blackhawk helicopters; AGM, AIM and Patriot missiles, M-16 rifles, M-204 grenade launchers and M-2 machine guns…………

Many of these weapons have been used to kill Palestinian civilians and are being used in Lebanon today…………..

Since 1972 the US has used its veto in the UN……..on 40 occasions to prevent the passage of resolutions that sought either to defend the rights of the Palestinians or to condemn the excesses of Israel's government. This is a greater number of vetoes than all the other permanent members have deployed in the same period…………...

The US government has power over that country………….Israel could not behave as it does without the diplomatic protection of the United States. If the US government announced that it would cease to offer military and diplomatic support if Israel refused to hand back the occupied territories, Israel would have to negotiate.

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A US president in his second term is in a powerful position to demand that Israel pulls back and negotiates.

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…………….(It is true) Hizbullah fired the first shots. But out of the blue? Israel's earlier occupation of southern Lebanon....continued occupation of the Golan Heights.....its occupation and partial settlement of the West Bank and gradual clearance of Jerusalem...its shelling of civilians, power plants, bridges and pipelines in Gaza; its beating and shooting of children....its imprisonment or assassination of Palestinian political leaders....its bulldozing of homes…"

Continued retaliation does not create peace in the Middle East.

The Father: A schizophrenic who hears God's voice to kill his son and proceeds to do so.
The Boatbuilder: An alcoholic who treats his daughters shamefully and they return the compliment.
The Lawgiver: A murderer and director of genocides.
The Great King: murderer and adulterer.
The Wisw Man: Had 300 concubines.
The Patriarchs: Led questionable moral lives.
The God: Jealous, bloodthirsty and rewards duplicitous behaviour. Proud of his achievments.
What can you expect from those who claim proud descent from such as these?

From a strategic point of view the most disappointing aspect of the Middle East at this time is the fact that the 'war' in Iraq has significantly decreased the world's appetite for military engagement with Iran and Syria. I dont look back on the fall of the Hussein regime with regret-afterall it was a horrible one even by today's standards. However the timing of Husseins removal was bad (a) because the Bush family was involved; (b) because removing Hussein removed a key counter weight to Iran.

Israel has attacked the wrong country- Lebanon was if anything what the West is striving for. In fact if Rafiq Hariri had not been assassinated by the Syrians it would not be where it is today. From a strategic point of view, Iran and Syria most know that fighting a proxy war from Lebanon not only threatens Israel (a key bargaining chip) but also increases radical Shi'te influence from Turkey to Somalia to Afghanistan.

The posters on this site who are constantly referring to 'the jews' and 'imperialism in Iraq' and 'US billions to Isael' are sadly misguided. Such ethnic stereotyping and anti Americanism is exactly what Iran is pushing for. ie Deny the holocaust, make jews out to be a scurge, wipe Israel from the earth, make it all about a crusade and get hung up on technological advancement. Furthermore the likes the Iranian President and Assad in Syria find all the conjecture in the west laughable-do you think they allow any such criticism of their administrations?

Finally I find all the lefties on here so hypocritical- invading Iraq was wrong because Sadamm had no WMD's and was 'only' responsible for gassing and butchering women and children by the thousands. Now that Israel is taking on Iran, a state that the UN knows is developing WMD's, it is Israel's fault that civilians are killed in a war it DIDNT start (Israel had left Lebanon alone for half a decade)! Should the radical Islamists take heart from your nonsensical arguments I'll look forward to the day your protests are quashed by a 'revolutionary guard'.

Scout:

The Guardian is hardly an-unbiased source for anything, unless you are into the ranting of George Monbiot.

You trot out that tired old argument of US aid to Israel. Just as a point of interest, how is this relevant to anything? Why does the fact that USA donates to Israel make them somehow morally culpable? It seems as though just the fact that they receive cash makes them guilty. Beyond which it is somewhat disingenuous to make those claims without mentioning the amount of aid the Palestinians receive, you know, from the UN and and the Europeans. A project for you to check up on perhaps, in the interests of balance and so on. I think you will find that they receive an (per person) amount that makes for a good scare statistic. By your own logic, certainly a justification to bomb them into the stone-age.

As for the list of military hardware, you know what all that stuff means do you? Or are you just cutting and pasting to make your post look pithy. Personally I would not have the faintest idea as to the difference between an M1 and an M2. But the inclusion of the Patriot missiles does seem to be a bit of an own goal on your behalf. Are they not the anti-missile missiles? Defensive by nature, against what you may well ask?

For a nation that is surrounded by a sea of genocidal Islamists it seems odd that anyone would begrudge them an effective military. It is the only reason they are still there.

"Continued retaliation does not create peace in the Middle East."

No, but an unequivocal military defeat just might cause a ceasefire for a while.

Hezbollah have been firing rockets into Israel for years, using the cover of civilian buildings.

The only thing which surprises me is the Israeli restrain in not using more effective (less discriminating) weaponary against these spineless and cowardly aggressors who cry foul when their evil is challenged.

Anyone who believes there is anything to merit what Hezbollah promote can go and live in Iran and share the bounty of their sponsors. Decent people should be shielded from scum like Hezbollah, not used as their shields.

Thank you the IDF for putting your lives on the line to eradicate the verim.