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The Forum > Article Comments > Why the world is silent > Comments

Why the world is silent : Comments

By Mireille Astore, published 1/8/2006

Theories abound about Israel’s grand plan, about Iran’s role, and about Syria’s supply of arms to Hezbollah.

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When I was 15, my parents and I went on a tour of the middle east, with the bulk of our time spent in Egypt and Israel.

We travelled there before the term 'terrorism' had the resonance it has today, though we were there during the aftermath of the massacre of tourists at the temple of Queen Hapshetsut (the culprits were labelled rebels at the time) - due to this, there were very few visitors to the area, and we witnessed the desperation of the tourist merchants.

While in Israel, I saw first hand the attitude you describe. On a bus tour of Jerusalem, the jewish guide took us past a series of hovels.
He said to us "this is where palestinians live - in filth, like animals".
Less than half an hour later, we passed by an almost identical series of hovels, though this time they were inhabited by Jews. Apparently these people had chosen to live a life without luxury to better understand god.
At the time, I assumed I was ignorant and couldn't see the difference, though as time passed I became aware that there really was no difference.
What scares me was the fact that the tour guide couldn't even see his hypocrisy. He was totally unaware of it.

That being said, I can't help but feel that this article, whilst entirely accurate, is somewhat one sided and in a way it is guilty of the same prejudice. The thing is, both sides are utterly racist. Yes the jews view themselves as superior - but so too do the Arab states.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:01:00 AM
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This collective self delusion of the jews as victim has its most amusing element in the view of their place in medieval europe. They were supposed to be the outcast and despised but at least they were free.

All through that time the only obligation of an aristocrat to his serfs was that he could not maim or kill them, everything else was fair game. All through that time the serfs were tied to the lands of others with no escape other than death. They were locked in a prison defined by the number of grains on an ear of wheat.

This may sound odd but Fernand Braudel pointed out that each ear of wheat only had five grains. And from this one grain had to be kept for seed next year, one grain went to the "Kings fifth", another went to the lord of the manor, and the remaining two were left to be fought over between the family, the rats and the church.

So my response to this Jewish littany of victimisation, as one who's line has only comparatively recently emerged from a millenium of serfdom via penal servitude is, so what! At least you were free. And not only were you allowed to earn interest from lending, you even managed to hang onto enough money to be able to lend it.

My ancestors? Well some of them actually thought Haggis was a special treat. They used to say choko and parrot soup wasn't much but it sure beat plain choko soup. So don't give me this BS, buster, we were there too, remember?
Posted by Perseus, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:34:48 AM
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Firstly I want to make it clear that I neither support the Israeli nor the Arab cause. On one hand the Arabs were robbed of land and double crossed by the west with the Balfour Declaration. On the other the Israelis are subjected to mindless attacks and fanatacism those of us in Australia can only have nightmares about.

I have travelled to Lebanon and Israel. Israelis I found to be very stand offish-perhaps not surprising given their country has been laid seige to since its conception. However I found the poorer Lebanese to be a beautiful people who nonetheless espoused a hatred of both the west and Syria. My opinion was that they were all sick of being caught in the middle! It is a complete misconception that Hizbollah came from the rubble of Palestinian refugee camps- it is a radical militia funded by Iran. That sunnis now join it is merely a sign of desperation.

Israel most definitely has a right to defend itself. I admire its forces and personnel. However it has in this most recent instance attacked the wrong country. The Assad administration in Syria should be wiped from the face of the earth- what it has done in Lebanon is dispicable. It is openly pursuing a programme of destabilisation and Iran is enjoying every bit of it. Unlike Iraq, a smoking gun in Syria is not hard to find!

Unfortunately in Syria and Iran I see two states openly seeking to establish a sphere of radical Islamic influence from Somalia to Turkey and across to Pakistan. While the costs of war with Syria and Iran are likely to be terrible, the costs of no war are likely to be worse.
Posted by wre, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:53:57 AM
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Mireille

You make the error of comparing Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews with Israeli's treatment of Arabs. There is no comparison for anyone who knows a little history. Many countries have oppressed minorities (including Australia) but the Nazi's factory killing of millions is something else.

The unintended result of someone on the far left condemning Israel's latest (admittedly) excessive use of force, is that the far right is encouraged to return to anti-Semitism like maggots to a corpse.

Perseus

The Jews were not "free" in medieval times. They were actively prevented from owning the most valuable commodity of the age - which was land. Without land they had noone to protect them.

Now they are protecting themselves.

Having no state of their own Jews were conveniently used by European and British nobles and royals as temporary financiers who could be disposed of.

It frequently happened that once royals became heavily indebted to Jews they heavily taxed the Jews on a racial basis. This either forced Jews to "writeoff the debt" or bankrupted them.

Jews could be, and frequently were, forcibly driven out of countries, because they had no land and rulers owed them money. These Jews often died (especially the weak, especially the children) before they reached the next temporary sanctuary that would have them.

No land meant the Jews had to lend money to survive. This reality won them no solid favours until 1948.

I'm not Jewish but comparison of Nazis with Israelis makes me want to choose sides in the current conflict.

The extreme Left's attempt to compare Israel with Nazi Germany only weakens the Arab cause.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 11:36:13 AM
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Comparing present Israeli actions in Lebanon with the Nazi regime can take two (and probably more) forms. In terms of morality and the extent of the killing, there is a great difference -- the Nazi regime was clearly more brutal and, indeed, sadistic. However, in terms of the attitudes (lack of empathy, feelings of victimisation, desire for vengeance), the gap is not so wide.
Consider the views of Gustave Gilbert:
http://www.jeffschubert.com/index.php?id=23
And the views of George Victor:
http://www.jeffschubert.com/index.php?id=24
Posted by Jeff Schubert, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 11:47:34 AM
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"...the world keeps watching in wonder at the might and determination of the Israeli military"

Not true, Mirielle. Most observers are simply aghast at the inhumanity.
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 11:55:44 AM
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“It is now week three of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon..”, writes the author. A very convenient timeline for people wanting to forget the one relating to the beginning of the Hezbollah terrorists’ rocket attacks which started the whole conflict.

“It seems everyone around me acknowledges the horror that is being inflicted on the Lebanese but somehow feel helpless to stop it”, she laments, again ignoring the fact that the horror would never have occurred were it not for the Lebanese government allowing terrorists on their soil. The horror can be stopped when the Lebanese takes control of Lebanon, as they are supposed to do, and gets rid of the Hezbollah terrorists.

The Geneva Convention might make illegal the attacking of civilians, but Israel is not attacking civilians. The Hezbollah terrorists do not give any credence to the Geneva Convention, and they are using civilians as shields. But of course, the Israel-haters don’t want to know about the truth. It’s Israel’s fault, they shriek, giving no thought to the do-nothing Lebanese government. Nor do they invoke the Geneva Convention when terrorists fire rockets into Israeli civilians.

Astore’s entire article is made of Israel-hating, emotive claptrap – “the collective punishment of the Lebanese people” is one of her most outrageous statements; and her claim that that the world is silent – not condemning Israel – is patently ridiculous. The media, left academics and all of the usual suspects have done nothing but condemn Israel for defending itself.

Israel/Jews continue to be discriminated against, as they have always been, while Arabs are cast as ‘victims’ – as they have always been.

And of course, the author brings up the old ‘racism’ lark, even though Arab countries have continually sworn to wipe out Israel for that very reason; then there is the supposed brain washing of Israeli children, without reference to the constant Arab ranting hatred against Israel, American and the entire West. The author doesn’t recognise her own racism. But she has the gall to say of the Israeli children, “What chance do these girls have of recognising their own racism?”

Sickening.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 11:57:01 AM
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Jewish people have treated non Jews very harshly since they came into being. When you trap in a corner, all it can do bite and that is what keeps happening to Jews...they keep treating other's like vermin which then turns against them.

Remember that before Nazi Germany came along, the Jewish community was treating Germans and Austrians appallingly.

Look at the black plague...when people were dying left right and centre, the Jewish community cared for nothing but money no matter how much hurt they caused.

Nope, I see no good future coming when Jewish people can dominate for their money. Take away their money then see how much the world cares.
Posted by Spider, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 1:04:38 PM
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Oh, thanks so much Spider.

Make everyone opposing Israel's military machine sound like we're worried about Jews poisoning the wells!

Great to see that some of us are still in touch with the political realities of 800 years ago.
Posted by Dewi, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 1:14:05 PM
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And what of Syria/Iran and its attempts by proxy to run Lebanon.

Some worrying signs here http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/2006/07/iran-syria-real-invaders-of-lebanon.html#links and especially here http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/2006/07/will-lebanon-soon-be-set-for-war.html#links
Posted by The Examiner, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 1:18:20 PM
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The Lebanese government continues to allow Hezbollah to replenish the rockets it fires at Israel from the midst of Lebanese citizens - including disabled children and their carers who cannot, and did not, escape. We saw them in plastic bags last night.

That makes the Lebanese government complicit in the deaths of its own people. Yet they and their supporters don't want the silence on that one lifted. The understandably engraged and grief-stricken Lebanese people would do much better by attacking their own government rather than shouting slogans of hate at America, Israel and the West. Their worst enemy is not Israel, but their own government and the terrorists, Hezbollah, whom they support.

It is the Lebanese who need to overcome their inbuilt 'victim' status and start standing up for themselves at home, where it counts.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 1:33:28 PM
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Leigh with no respect whatsoever I have to say I am sick to death of your sick mind and your ability to blame the victims in Lebanon no matter how deranged you sound.

The Israelis have a GDP of $155 bn yet they receive $2.2 bn from the US in weapons and spend $9.5 bn making their own and building their army.

The scenes now coming from the south of Lebanon make it absolutely clear that this was planned with the help of the US many months ago and is to clear out the south of Lebanon for the Israeli's. I refuse to call them all Jews because most of the world's Jews live in the US and are perfectly safe from the world.

It always amazes me that when rational people speak of the nazis and compare the collective punishment being meted out to the Lebanese and Palestinians those like Leigh refuse to see the truth of that statement.

No-one is claiming the Jews are building gas chambers but if one Israeli breaks a finger nail they blow up an entire country.

Let's look at the Palestinians - millions of them are stateless because Israel stole their land. In Lebanon today about 1 million are now homeless yet the Israelis are now bombing the boulders into rubble.

Journalists describe the towns and cities as looking like Kabul or Baghdad - the pictures today do not lie.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 1:59:28 PM
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Marilyn

While I in no way condone Leigh's train of thought (I actually hoped he may have disappeared during my absense)I cant see any merit in yours either.

Your statement to the effect that the US and Israel had been planning 'this' for month is particularly bemusing. Have we all forgotten it was Hizbollah with the implicit encouragement of Syria & Iran that attacked Israel, kidnapped its soldiers and rained down rockets on Israeli civlians? All that despite the fact Israel had left Lebanon and Hizbollah alone since 1999/2000.

Are you also going to tell me that 10-15 000 Iranian rockets found their way to Lebanon in the last 2 weeks? The fact is Iran has been arming Hizbollah since the year the Israelis pulled out of Lebanon and Lebanon declared 'peace'. Lebanon is allowing itself to be prostituted by Iran and Syria.

Lets forget everyone for one minute that we are talking about jews and arabs! Conspiracy theories and ethnic stereotypes have no use here. The bottom line is a state was attacked, that state has a right to defend itself. That the extremist militias are DELIBERATELY hiding amongst women and children is not Israel's fault. Hizbollan cannot any longer claim to be a poorly armed rabble of peasants (it never was anyway). It is armed by Iran. It should stop hiding amongst civilians and start fighting like an army.
Posted by wre, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 2:13:41 PM
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I am not for any side in this ugly war but -and it is a big but- at least the Israelis get out and fight like men.
They do not act like Nancy boys hiding among defenceless women and children. How brave and manly is that?
One side are soldiers ,the other side are cowards.
Posted by mickijo, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 3:35:14 PM
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One side gets billions from the US.
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 3:40:11 PM
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I think that the comparison of the current Israeli war machine to Nazi Germany is an excellent one.

People here have spoken of Hezbollah being Islamic extreemists - Are the Israeli's not simply Jewish extreemists? What is worse?

Ideologically the Israelis are no better than Hezbollah or Nazi Germany. The problem is they have the tanks, fighter-jets, money and seemingly un-questioning support of the US and therefore by default the rest of the developed world, in order to persue their crazy extreemism.

I find it amazing how every rememberance day we here in Australia go on and on about "lest we forget" and "lets never let this happen again" and now it is happening again and we are turning a blind eye... again.

Wake up Australia is anyone really buying the maddness that Israel and the US are pedaling? This is nothing more than Israel furthering its aims to decimate their neighbors and dominate the region.

It does raise the question: why is it that the Jewish race never seems to be able to get along with anyone else?...Ever. There seems to be the one common denominator here and it isn't any of the Arab states.
Posted by Daniel06, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 3:58:49 PM
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Leigh,
i find it perversely and amusingingly consistant with your warped and incoherent worldview that such an proudly unashamed Arab-hater and bigot such as yourself should profess themself "sickened" by the percieved prejudices of alleged "Israel-haters".
Leigh says:
"But of course, the Israel-haters don’t want to know about the truth."
and refers to..."the constant Arab ranting hatred against Israel"
Leigh,
Substitute 'Arab' for "Israel" in the first quoted sentence, "Leigh" for "Arab" and 'Arab' for "Israel" in the second...do you see yourself clearly yet?
You really dont see the inconsistancies or hypocrisy of your own attitudes at all do you?
I think the "sickness" you feel is a symptom of your own illness...Better get that looked at.
Posted by DOOM, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 4:16:18 PM
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I agree with the author that there is a kind of attitude towards others that suggests racism. However, I think it goes deeper than that. It's like a disregard for other people because of their own lack of imagination and feelings of humanity. It is like a mass psychopathy has been engendered in people.

Why do some people see that human life is more important than the warmongering solutions or taking sides.

A Japanese survivor of Hiroshima when asked if he hated the Americans said: "You are not my enemy; war is our enemy." It is “our “enemy.

Compare this to the attitude below that seems representative of a lot of Westerners with little experience and a lack of imagination which in turn leads to a seeming indifference to the suffering of others.

Barbara Bush has supposedly said: " Why should we here about body bags...?
It's not relevant.
So why should I waste my time on something like that?"

Disregard for human life, like this, and the human consequence and reality of war goes beyond petty racist attitudes, it goes to a sickness in the minds of people or a loss of contact with what life is really about. If one has the inability to respect the lives of others on racial grounds, then eventually ones own people will feel that irrational hatred or/and indifference. Those who hold the value of human life in highest esteem will be the first to be treated inhumanly.

Israel is not seen as terrorist because it has nice, clean, streamlined fighter jets. The pilots are in less danger than an Australian taxi driver. These people kill civilians with little risk. But why does Israel accept this atrocity – racism.

This conflict is wrong and not enough, nay not any, effort was put into avoiding the loss of human life.
Posted by rancitas, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 4:20:20 PM
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Israel offers an interesting idea of what nation is about. Nations are usually populated with citizens. Thus, Lebanon is populated with Lebanese of various religions with their various cultural heritages, but united by their Lebanese citizenship.

Israel is populated with people of a particular religion which identifies them as Jews rather than Israelis. So what happens to Israelis is not happening to citizens but to Jews, which in turn allows any misfortune to be linked to past misfortunes in other places.

We don't talk about the suffering of Australians during the Industrial Revolution in England or the various invasions of Britain from ancient times, yet Jewishness talks about sufferings throughout the globe and throughout history as though they happened to Israel.

In this gigantic victimhood the sufferings Israel imposes on others must seem like a drop in the ocean to Israelis, but not to its victims, which is arguably a good reason to leave ancient history out of the equation and focus on current reality and what the consequences might be for all involved.
Posted by chainsmoker, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 5:04:08 PM
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The one funny thing to come out of things like these was having the depth of ignorance beheld by Barbara Bush revealed.

Remember her fantastic quotes about getting those nasty Hurricane Katrina refugees out of her nice neighbourhood.
We couldn't have them sticking around, good grief, they don't even have dry homes.

Very worrying that such power is in the hands of these people.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 5:05:20 PM
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Where is the evidence that any militia are hiding anywhere among civilians? The only photo I have seen to date is one in the HUN that purports to be Hezbollah militia sitting in a suburb of Beirut.

Problem with the HUN's story is that the suburb is christian so it is probably part of the Phalangist christian militia that helped Israel slaughter the Palestinian refugees in Sabra and Shatila when Sharon bowled into Lebanon without cause in 1982.

After the madness of Iraq and Afghanistan where we were told that the so-called militia were hiding among civilians I thought you lot would have learnt something by now.

Hezbollah has only about 2-3,000 "militia" and they all reside in the south of Lebanon - then they have a political party with 14 members of parliament and 2 ministers and then they have the most important wing of all.

Welfare - they build hospitals, schools, welfare services, clinics and so on.

The same as Hamas. If they are in the community it is because they are simply Lebanese people protecting themselves from the marauders of Israel.

Some of you really ought to stop reading what Bolt says - he gets his rot from Fox news for heavens sake and the number of issues he has been wrong about would stretch around Australia.

Old people have been found in basements after 20 days of bombing - they are not terrorists.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 6:21:47 PM
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The first Jews arrived in this country with the first fleet. They quickly established themselves as an important part of the new land. Our first policeman was Jewish as was our first Australian born Governor General. Jews became lawyers, doctors, soldiers academics, musicians. Our Universities and orchestras would not be the same without them.

Anti-semitism did not feature. My family has not seen it for four generations. When Israel was established Australia supported it in the UN. After all it shared the same pioneer spirit mateship and willingness to work as did Australia. Israel became to Jews what Ireland is to the Irish Catholic Australians and England to the Anglo-Aussies.

What has happened? Mireille Astore writes an article full of hatred in a University sponsored publication. Correspondents reply with anti-semitic filth. The bogus Elders of Zion has been quoted and also medieval attitudes. This is not the Australia that I and my parents and grandparents grew up in!

Ad hoc comments and by guides and impressions of obviously biased tourists are hardly proof of anything. I was in Israel and enjoyed meeting both the Arabs and the Jews. I did not go there with predjudice and hatred in my heart.

Come on Aussie get back to your values.
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 6:33:57 PM
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This author needs to be made aware of the heinous atrocities of mass rapes, genocide, baby-killing, torching and destruction of villages, livestock slaughtering and ethnic cleansing committed by Arabs in Sudan. Is it because the victims are millions of black Africans they just don't count? I am sick of the disproportionate, obsessive focus on Israel, when these vile, genocidal evils of Arabs are FAR, FAR worse. My sympathy for the Arab nation is zero, I'm afraid, until they can clean up the heinous, unspeakable atrocities in their own house.
Posted by Kvasir, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 6:34:47 PM
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Mireille

I wish I had the ability to have written what you've written. I applaud your understanding of pacifism.

Israel get out of Lebanon now. Your invasion is looking more like a land grab and is reminesant, if you care to read an unbiased history, of the clearing of Palestine of Palestinians in '47 and '48.

The results of your actions is a groundswell of doubt, in the West, about your self-perceived right to occupy 'Greater Israel'.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 8:03:00 PM
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Marilyn.

Have a valium and a nice lay down. Quite the jew hater
arent we. TUT TUT...

There is evidence of militia hiding amongst civilians on
the BBC news website two days ago. And even to suggest
they arent more the fool for you.

Coservative estimates of Hizbollah terrorists by NGOs on the ground right now are in the 20 000-30 000 range. The leftist mind is blind to the reality of what this situation is. Islam being Islam, Trust the left to side with the enemy time and again.

No Tabouli
Posted by SCOTTY, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 8:22:24 PM
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The official line from Israel that Lebanon should have removed and disarmed Hizbollah is breathtaking in its cycnicism. This is the job they are trying to do themselves with very great difficulty with far greater military capacity than the Lebanese army. Did the US offer any plane loads of glide bombs to Lebanon to help with that task? Not likely.

But as usual, the spin from Israel is one of some sort of fall from grace on the part of the Lebanese that now compels the Israelis to intervene. And spare us all the guff about Hezbollah fighting amongst civilians, what about the civilians killed in the UN Post? And what about the bombing of Beirut Airport? How many rockets were fired from there?

Did Israel get rid of Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang terrorists? No, he made it to PM.

And as for history and the denial of land to Jews, Serfs had no land either and frankly, stories about getting ripped off in a financial deal with a Baron or Prince hardly equate with the abject misery that was the unending lot of ordinary men and women of the time. Get real fellas, that stuff may go down in barbie world, but not here.
Posted by Perseus, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:12:42 PM
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Perseus

I am afraid there are photos showing the Hezbollah with guns amongst civilians. The bombing of Beirut Airport is irrelevant to that arguement.

And here is a Lebanese article blaming Hezbollah for the Qana atrocity.

http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2

It acuses Hezbollah of deliberately placing disabled children inside the building to gain international attention.

And Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang stopped being terrorists.

One of the UN staff killed in the UN post had sent an email to the world claiming that Hezbollah were using the post as a screen.

And the US might just send troops in so don't speak to loudly. They hate the Islamacists more than do the Israelis. (New York). And England Spain Denmark and India are not too keen either.
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:55:04 PM
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Not sons of the soil but the Tower was no Holiday.

By the middle of the thirteenth century the Jews of England, like those of the Continent, had become chattels of the king. There appeared to be no limit to the exactions he could impose upon them, though it was obviously against his own interest to deprive them entirely of capital, without which they could not gain for him usurious interest.

Further prejudice had been raised against the Jews just about this time by the revival of the blood libel, a charge of ritual murder. The king had sold the Jewish community to his brother Richard of Cornwall in Feb., 1255, for 5,000 marks, and had lost all rights over it for a year. But in the following August a number of the chief Jews who had assembled at Lincoln to celebrate the marriage of a daughter of Berechiah de Nicole were seized on a charge of having murdered a boy named Hugh.

Ninety-one were sent to London to the Tower, eighteen were executed for refusal to plead, and the rest were kept in prison till the expiry of Richard's control over their property.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England#Increasing_Persecution.2C_1200s
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 11:45:16 PM
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BTW, it is incredible that Shepherd is so bigoted towards Israelis/Jews that she can attribute no wrong to Hamas or Hezbollah. Shepherd should be sentenced to live out her days under the full strictures of Islamic law like that which applies in Hezbollahland (formerly southern Lebanon), Iran, Somalia or Saudi Arabia. This would be a fitting punishment for any leftist sympathiser of Hamas or Hezbollah. I am a progressive that believes that we MUST unfortunately fight to protect progressive, secular values against the forces of medieval darkness and benighted religion.
Posted by Kvasir, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 12:18:53 AM
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'I am a progressive that believes that we MUST unfortunately fight to protect progressive, secular values against the forces of medieval darkness and benighted religion.'

So Kvasir, you seem not to include the Jewish faith in 'the forces of medieval darkness and benighted religion'.

Is that because you are a bigoted secular progressive. ;-)
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 7:51:33 AM
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Dear Kvasir
not all of us would describe your views as 'progressive' (specially if they include the usual recipe for progressiveness) but on Marilyn you have a point.

Sadly, Marilyn has developed what I can only describe as some kind of emotional condition (probably yet to be described by medicine) in which she reacts to ANY conflict by taking the side of the 'bombed and blown up'.... If she was around during WWII I am quite confident she would have been ranting about the poor Nazi's and would be demonstrating outside POW camps in England.

She clearly has a compassionate heart, but an either uninformed or simply naive head. Her facts are always unbalanced and stacked to match her emotional condition, and even more sad, if her solutions were followed (hers is just 'stop') the outcome would be never decided, and become a running bleeding oozing ulcer between people in conflict.
Her only advice to them would be 'don't be mean' in spite of the reality of life that many people don't care one iota about whether they are 'mean' or not, as long as they impose their political or social regime on others with whom they are in conflict with.

She speaks of justice but without a divine reference point for the very idea of 'justice'. By not acknowledging the Almighty in her posts, she is left with humanity in all its machiavellian gyrations, and her plea's for everyone to be nice fall on deaf but powerful ears.

Nations will take the "I am mightier than you" approach, we Christians can only say "God is not mocked, whatever a man sows, he will also reap" (read the first 2 chapters of the book of Amos and then check the history of the cities/states he mentions and condemns for injustice)

In the mean time, nation will rise against nation, we must choose a side, as best we understand it to be in our personal interests and stay the course.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 9:44:01 AM
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All protagonists are guilty – to choose sides is futile.

What must be achieved is peace – and that will never occur while Bush dithers and continues aid to Israel.

From Guardian at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1834553,00.html

"The US government dispensed $11bn of civil foreign assistance in 2004. Of this, Israel received $555m; the three poorest nations on earth - Burkina Faso, Sierra Leone and Niger - were given a total of $69m. (Additionally)…..last year Israel also received $2.2bn of military aid.

It does not depend economically on this assistance. …………. It manufactures many of its own weapons and buys components from all over the world……Israel uses it to obtain F-15 and F-16 jets; Apache, Cobra and Blackhawk helicopters; AGM, AIM and Patriot missiles, M-16 rifles, M-204 grenade launchers and M-2 machine guns…………

Many of these weapons have been used to kill Palestinian civilians and are being used in Lebanon today…………..

Since 1972 the US has used its veto in the UN……..on 40 occasions to prevent the passage of resolutions that sought either to defend the rights of the Palestinians or to condemn the excesses of Israel's government. This is a greater number of vetoes than all the other permanent members have deployed in the same period…………...

The US government has power over that country………….Israel could not behave as it does without the diplomatic protection of the United States. If the US government announced that it would cease to offer military and diplomatic support if Israel refused to hand back the occupied territories, Israel would have to negotiate.

.
A US president in his second term is in a powerful position to demand that Israel pulls back and negotiates.

.
…………….(It is true) Hizbullah fired the first shots. But out of the blue? Israel's earlier occupation of southern Lebanon....continued occupation of the Golan Heights.....its occupation and partial settlement of the West Bank and gradual clearance of Jerusalem...its shelling of civilians, power plants, bridges and pipelines in Gaza; its beating and shooting of children....its imprisonment or assassination of Palestinian political leaders....its bulldozing of homes…"

Continued retaliation does not create peace in the Middle East.
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 9:55:35 AM
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The Father: A schizophrenic who hears God's voice to kill his son and proceeds to do so.
The Boatbuilder: An alcoholic who treats his daughters shamefully and they return the compliment.
The Lawgiver: A murderer and director of genocides.
The Great King: murderer and adulterer.
The Wisw Man: Had 300 concubines.
The Patriarchs: Led questionable moral lives.
The God: Jealous, bloodthirsty and rewards duplicitous behaviour. Proud of his achievments.
What can you expect from those who claim proud descent from such as these?
Posted by fdixit, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 10:18:52 AM
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From a strategic point of view the most disappointing aspect of the Middle East at this time is the fact that the 'war' in Iraq has significantly decreased the world's appetite for military engagement with Iran and Syria. I dont look back on the fall of the Hussein regime with regret-afterall it was a horrible one even by today's standards. However the timing of Husseins removal was bad (a) because the Bush family was involved; (b) because removing Hussein removed a key counter weight to Iran.

Israel has attacked the wrong country- Lebanon was if anything what the West is striving for. In fact if Rafiq Hariri had not been assassinated by the Syrians it would not be where it is today. From a strategic point of view, Iran and Syria most know that fighting a proxy war from Lebanon not only threatens Israel (a key bargaining chip) but also increases radical Shi'te influence from Turkey to Somalia to Afghanistan.

The posters on this site who are constantly referring to 'the jews' and 'imperialism in Iraq' and 'US billions to Isael' are sadly misguided. Such ethnic stereotyping and anti Americanism is exactly what Iran is pushing for. ie Deny the holocaust, make jews out to be a scurge, wipe Israel from the earth, make it all about a crusade and get hung up on technological advancement. Furthermore the likes the Iranian President and Assad in Syria find all the conjecture in the west laughable-do you think they allow any such criticism of their administrations?

Finally I find all the lefties on here so hypocritical- invading Iraq was wrong because Sadamm had no WMD's and was 'only' responsible for gassing and butchering women and children by the thousands. Now that Israel is taking on Iran, a state that the UN knows is developing WMD's, it is Israel's fault that civilians are killed in a war it DIDNT start (Israel had left Lebanon alone for half a decade)! Should the radical Islamists take heart from your nonsensical arguments I'll look forward to the day your protests are quashed by a 'revolutionary guard'.
Posted by wre, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 11:09:36 AM
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Scout:

The Guardian is hardly an-unbiased source for anything, unless you are into the ranting of George Monbiot.

You trot out that tired old argument of US aid to Israel. Just as a point of interest, how is this relevant to anything? Why does the fact that USA donates to Israel make them somehow morally culpable? It seems as though just the fact that they receive cash makes them guilty. Beyond which it is somewhat disingenuous to make those claims without mentioning the amount of aid the Palestinians receive, you know, from the UN and and the Europeans. A project for you to check up on perhaps, in the interests of balance and so on. I think you will find that they receive an (per person) amount that makes for a good scare statistic. By your own logic, certainly a justification to bomb them into the stone-age.

As for the list of military hardware, you know what all that stuff means do you? Or are you just cutting and pasting to make your post look pithy. Personally I would not have the faintest idea as to the difference between an M1 and an M2. But the inclusion of the Patriot missiles does seem to be a bit of an own goal on your behalf. Are they not the anti-missile missiles? Defensive by nature, against what you may well ask?

For a nation that is surrounded by a sea of genocidal Islamists it seems odd that anyone would begrudge them an effective military. It is the only reason they are still there.

"Continued retaliation does not create peace in the Middle East."

No, but an unequivocal military defeat just might cause a ceasefire for a while.
Posted by mouthbreather, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 11:24:47 AM
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Hezbollah have been firing rockets into Israel for years, using the cover of civilian buildings.

The only thing which surprises me is the Israeli restrain in not using more effective (less discriminating) weaponary against these spineless and cowardly aggressors who cry foul when their evil is challenged.

Anyone who believes there is anything to merit what Hezbollah promote can go and live in Iran and share the bounty of their sponsors. Decent people should be shielded from scum like Hezbollah, not used as their shields.

Thank you the IDF for putting your lives on the line to eradicate the verim.
Posted by Col Rouge, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 12:57:08 PM
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logic

The Ninth Governor General of Australia Sir Isaac Alfred Isaacs was Jewish and opposed Zionism because he disliked nationalism of all kinds. He saw Zionism as a form of Jewish national chauvinism, and because he saw the Zionist agitation in Palestine as disloyalty to the British Empire, to which he was devoted. When Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in 1946, he wrote that "the honour of Jews throughout the world demands the renunciation of political Zionism."

I guess this Jew knew better
Posted by Mireille, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 3:31:31 PM
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Hezbolla could simply release the the two kidnapped soldiers (un-harmed) if they want the destruction to stop .
Posted by jamo, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 6:23:23 PM
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Of course I don't mean all religions are benighted - for example I don't think Buddhism is benighted. In fact there is much to respect in its quiet dignity, serenity and gentle moral code that is sadly lacking in some other religions that I can think of. I think there is much to learn from it. As I said however, I think the most important thing is that as progressives must zealously protect our system with its womens rights, gay rights, freedom of debate on religions and ideologies, economic freedoms and freedom to choose religion from forces of extreme religion who would destroy those freedoms. Holland is finding itself in the same situation right now. I believe that if our society and our values face a mortal threat, then we must eradicate our Enemy root and branch until it is utterly vanquished. If we don't then we will face the same extinction that the gentle Buddhist civilisations in today's Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Kazakhstan and Xinjiang faced in the brutal Islamic invasions and slaughter around 1000 years ago.
Posted by Kvasir, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 7:17:05 PM
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Theories are inevitably skewed by the propaganda spouted by both sides, but this is surreal.

Take what you like from these:

Hizbollah spokesperson states that Israeli commandos are trapped in a hospital in Baalbek, and are surrounded by Hizbollah fighters, who are firing on them, while the IAF strafes the fighters, it also denies categorically that anyone was taken away:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DB65EDEA-76AC-4AC2-9ADC-8A0B14B9B587.htm

The next bulletin states that no fighters were injured, the people captured, despite two having the surname ‘Nasrallah’, were in no way connected to Hizbollah, and that the people injured and killed by the unprovoked invasion of a peaceful city by Israeli commandos, were all civilians:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7F33674C-7083-4F9D-8762-C32C26E12E59.htm

Does Hizb-Shatan have a little bit of a credibility problem or what?

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 10:31:06 PM
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fdixit

Let me guess, your not really a fan of Religion ? :)
Took me a while to work it out, but I finally got there.....

Your post is most instructive, and very similar to the attitude of one of those crucified with Jesus. He saw things rather colorfully also.

Jesus "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"

Criminal 1

"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" (Luke 23:39)

Criminal 2

"But the other criminal rebuked him...We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Fdixit, I guess you would have been the one 'hurling insults' and if you take that heart condition to your grave, does the thought not cross your mind that you might also be denied the outcome promised to the sorry criminal ? Who would be your judge ? me ? Jesus ? well.. He Himself said:

36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
(Mat 12)

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him.....that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Am I trying to 'scare' you ? Lets just say 'inform'....

David the 'Murderer and Adulterer' said later after some reflection:

"My sin is ever before me"
and
"create in me a clean heart oh God" Pslm 51 (worth a read)

So, for you, the question is, will you be a 'hurler of insults' or a repentant sinner like David ?

You may wonder why I got off topic to respond to you.. well, perhaps I took your approach?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 3 August 2006 7:34:41 AM
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Kvasir: You raise an interesting point. For a while now, I've come to believe that within any belief system, the thing that gives it an imperative also contains the seed of its own destruction. I think this can be said equally for Christianity, Islam or secular humanism as it can for Buddhism, which is why no empire or belief system lasts forever.

Catholicism seemed to lead almost inevitably to Protestantism, and once on that track, it seemed almost inevitable that people would cut Bog out of the picture all together, hence the near extinction of Christianity in the modern west.

From that came secular humanism, but the end point of that seems to be twofold. One, that with no mandate to go forth and multiply, we're breeding (or not breeding, as the case is) ourselves out of existence. This is as true of the secularised east (Japan, Singapore) as it is of the west. Two, that our pluralistic approach leaves us unable to stifle virulent ideologies such as Islam without betraying our own values.

As for Islam, it's been on a slow decline ever since the rest of the world moved beyond the Dark Ages, and it's finally realising that essentially, you can't have the benefits of modernism and a theocracy. It's an either/or situation.
Posted by shorbe, Thursday, 3 August 2006 8:00:40 AM
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A very good point Mireille. I think the ultimate tragedy of the holocaust is the intellectual vacuum left in the Jewish community by the death of so many wiser heads than those who were left.

The zionistas were nothing but fringe players prior to the war and it was only the death of so much of their opposition that gave them any traction at all. Israel is nothing more than a reaction to trauma by kids deprived of their mentors.
Posted by Perseus, Thursday, 3 August 2006 8:01:41 AM
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Gush Shalom from the Israeli paper, Haaretz:

"We warned them
And called on them
To escape!"

That is disgusting
Hypocrisy.

Because we have:
Bombed the roads.
Destroyed the bridges.
Cut off the supply of gasoline.
Killed whole families on the way.

There is only one way
Of preventing more such disasters,
Which turn us into monsters:
TO STOP!

There is no military solution!
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 3 August 2006 9:29:17 AM
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Mireille

Zionism is irrelevant here. Israel has millions of citizens of whom nearly one half are of Jewish Middle Eastern origin (refugees from Islamic administrations in Egypt Iraq Yemen etc.) Many are Islamic Arabic. All of them have been fired on and many killed by Hezbollah missiles. Hezbollah actually hit (targeted?) an Arab Israeli town. Do they all not have a right to exist and defend themselves if attacked?

They are people (prick them do they not bleed?)

There was much discussion about Israel at the beginning of the 20th century. That was before Arab nations started discriminating heavily against ancient Jewish communities and before the holocaust.

My basic point was that the Jews in Australia are part of this land and have the same right to support Israel as other Australians have to support Ireland England Scotland Lebenon etc.
Posted by logic, Thursday, 3 August 2006 9:52:15 AM
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Scout:

You howl "There is no military solution!".

Care to posit any plausible alternative solution that accounts for one side being genocidal in intent?
Posted by mouthbreather, Thursday, 3 August 2006 10:47:09 AM
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Mouthbreather

I was quoting Gush Shalom - forgot to insert end quotes.

However, I stand by his final line: "There is no military solution!"

In answer to your ignorant question: All parties in the Middle East debacle to cease fire and talk, negotiate, compromise, swallow their fanatical pride and learn to get along with each other.

Further military action only leads to further military reprisals - or have you been living under a rock all this time?

"We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb the world into PEACE."
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 3 August 2006 11:51:21 AM
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Scout:

The "we just form a healing power circle and promise to be nice" school of thought.

Simpleton.
Posted by mouthbreather, Thursday, 3 August 2006 12:00:28 PM
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I read in Mireille piece “As a Jewish friend tells me, she cries every time she watches the news at the killings in Lebanon.” straight after scanning a report about a certain Aussie actor in strife in LA.

If Mel Gibson’s recent drunken comments do hide a deep seated anti-semiticism then they need to be roundly denounced. However if they, and his spectacular fall from the wagon, are the product of the same anguish and horror felt by Mireille’s friend, myself, and many of those I talk to, over the killing and destruction, then might they not be seen in a different light?

While I’m not depressed enough to try a Mr Gibson style attempt at self medication I can see how feelings of despair and helplessness about the situation in the ME might tip an artistic, passionate and emotional person over the edge.

Also I also wonder if our individual sense of helplessness is exacerbated by not just the ‘silence’ of our elected representatives but by their active styming of efforts at resolution.

Then again, although I hope not, Mel Gibson might just be a bigoted pisshead deserving of all he gets.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 3 August 2006 12:42:55 PM
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Boaz_David
Whether I am off topic depends on how far back you want to go. The ultimate cuase of the war is the Old Testament. No OT: No Jewish nation:No war.
I reject the OT because of its immorality and I am in good company when I do so as Jesus did the same. Reread Matt 5 v21-48 which culminates in v43, the wonderful advice to love your enemy, the OT version being to hate your enemy.
Posted by fdixit, Thursday, 3 August 2006 2:14:53 PM
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• Mireille Astore: The theory that I find most plausible at the moment was devised four decades ago by the Jewish Philosopher, Hannah Arendt. In Eichmann in Jerusalem, she draws attention to the similarity between the racist foundation of the state of Israel and the 1935 Nuremburg laws. Both laws were based on an idea of Judaism as a race, not as a religious practice, regardless of whether individuals identified themselves as a Jew or belonged to the Jewish religious community.

• Leo Braun: Certainly, I am compelled to comment as to the tip of an iceberg reflected the common denominator of the Jew dilemma. Concerning the utmost controversial issue in question on the planet earth. Sought resolution of which (for the humanity sake), to remain insurmountable without resolving the principal lingo-essence as what kind of JEWS, we were talking about? When a deeper analysis of the macabre-dilemma inspires to quote the principle, which is quite true in itself, that in the big-lie there is always some sleazy force of machiavellian credibility.

Naive populous has-often fallen-for, because gullible-masses are always more easily swayed and corrupted in-a-deeper strata of their emotional nature (than consciously or voluntarily). Where in a primitive simplicity of their idle-minds, they more readily fall victims to the big-lies (than-little-fibs). As they themselves often tell small handy-lies in little benefit matters, but would be held-back to resort to a large-scale falsehoods. Hence, would never come into dopey heads the realisation that the almighty chosen-supremacists to fabricate so colossal untruths.

No wonder as-so sheepishly desensitised minds couldn't ever-grasp consequently that Zionist run-global-establishments, courtesy of a cuckoo-nest incubated rulers-and-preachers world-wide, could have had such-a-bloody chutzpah to distort truths so incredibly. When even the clear-cut facts exposing heinous fraud perpetuation by the lying-rodent-trinity to-be brought to the dill-flock's attention, amazingly the careless sucker heads still to doubt, waver and continue to think that there may-be some-other explanation. Because such grossly impudent lies leave always its smeared trace behind it (even after-it-has been nailed-down already).

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 3 August 2006 4:31:04 PM
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• Leo Braun: This is the fact, which was known extremely well to all Jew-expert liars in this world. Who conspired together worldwide in their supremacist art of the impeccable lying. Perpetrated as a matter-of-fact throughout the millenniums, courtesy-of-devious charlatans ingenuity knack. Who knew only too-well how-to-use falsehood for the basest purposes, then never-ever to-admit-any-wrong. Synonymous with the racist ashke-Nazim, who have known better than any others on earth, how falsehood and calumny can-be exploited. Isn't their very existence, was founded on one GREAT LIE? Namely that JEWS are a religious interbreed. When in reality, JEWS are a RACE.

And what-a-unique race, preset since time immemorial to deal with any alternative ideologies notion (ever-to-rise from the grass-roots of conscientious souls). Perpetually filling even the vacuum-cells via adhered supremacist rule-motto: "SHOULD ANYONE BE EVER ABSENT FROM US ... HE WILL BE THEN AGAINST US"! Thus having aristocratic-Jew-echelon masters throughout the millenniums firmly-to-place their bets each way ... they always-to-score their steadfast incubated winners worldwide. Impersonating an-exclusive tyrant-entity breed of the limitless significance.

Assuring thus global-apartheid via fait-accompli elimination-regimes. Starting right from a kindergarten via compulsory schooling and cultivated universities buffers, which to yield an-ample-of-disposable puppets. Accompanied over the years with connived-referees issued clandestine dossiers-as-norm. No wonder the imbeciles lot to-be nurtured with-a-carte blanche, whilst incorruptible souls of the role-model citizens to-endure devious wrath. Still, so many of-ill-informed minds failed even-to-realise what hit them indeed. Without expecting in the wildest-dream to face such-a-nightmare of the utterly insidious act.

• Hannah Arendt: During its first few years, Hitler's rise to power appeared to the Zionists chiefly as 'the decisive defeat of assimilationism'. Hence, the Zionists could, for a time, at least, engage in a certain amount of 'non-criminal' cooperation with the Nazi Reich; the Zionists too believed that 'dissimilation', combined with the emigration to Palestine of Jewish youngsters and, they hoped, Jewish capitalists, could be a 'mutually fair solution'. At the time, many German officials held this opinion, and this kind of talk seems to have been quite common up to the end ... http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzccontents

For zion-nazi collaboration exposé proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48915
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 3 August 2006 6:40:44 PM
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Hezbollah is not the first group to use civilian shields. And Israel is not the first country to attack despite those shields. During the 'bush war', the Rhodesian Army occasionally invaded refugee camps and (surprise, surprise) captured tanks and other arms that for some reason or another were hidden amongst the human 'casualties of war'. And again, they weren't the only ones.

I am not saying this because I think either side is right - but you can't keep surrounding your rocket launchers with the frail and helpless and then cry because they are getting killed. At least the Israelis are being somewhat transparent about what they are doing.

That said, it is always hard to back the side with greater firepower, especially if they use it. To the casual observer, Israel's attack seems to be a bit of overkill. But if the purpose of the army is to defend the interests of the state, then it makes sense to do it as well as you can. And Israel is doing that.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 4 August 2006 12:17:53 AM
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Innocent people are being killed, because two Israel soldiers were taken by Hezbollah. Israel soldiers take two Hezbollah soldiers.
What has this got to do with those innocent people, who are dying, maimed and homeless .
Israel move back to the original borders of Israel 1946, then accept what you have. Communicate, talk to each other. Idealistic? too true! enough is enough.
Posted by Kipp, Friday, 4 August 2006 5:54:31 PM
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To those who have jumped on the 'poor people' beaten up by Israel bandwagon, please understand something.

This is not, in any way, an entirely one sided war, this is a fight to the death.

Hizbollah has been provided, as a proxy of both Iran and Syria, with the latest, third generation, Soviet ATGM's, included the monstruous AT-14 Kornet ATGM, which has a dual action warhead, top attack, and has taken out M1A2 Abrams in the past. This is a nasty, dirty little war that Israel has no choice but to win, it is not easy, it is not enjoyable, and it will not be completed quickly (contrary to media expectations). However, it must be done, and given the attitude of the IDF in the past, it will be done, but there will be casualties, and there will be quite a few of them.

Now, Mr Braun, zionist-nazi collaboration? Please go back to the secure facility from whence you came.

Some zionists worked feverishly to try to secure the release of some jews from Germany before and even during the second world war, however this was in no way collaboration. The majority of jews involved in the second world war were in the Commonwealth army, and served predominantly in the middle east and Italy. (some even served in the 1st World War - eg. Zionist Mule Corps (Gallipoli), others assisted the Desert Mounted Corps (inc. Australian Light Horse)).

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Friday, 4 August 2006 8:01:22 PM
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The funny thing about Islam & murderous islamic rulers is:

When they win a war, they claim Allah has given the land and they are the sole owner of that.

But when they lose, they cry and do 'jihad' -- sick blowing up people in other countries.

They aren't brave nor they assimilate - but they are sick cowards
Posted by Websters, Friday, 4 August 2006 8:26:23 PM
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fdixit

If you are going to discuss the Bible at least have a good look at it first.

Love thy neighbour as thyself comes from the OT. Stop trying to present the OT as savage and the NT as enlightened therefore by implication the Jews are savage. This trick was invented by the Christian Church during its infamous period when it was ready to burn non Christians alive to purify them.

The OT is very cryptic and the Jewish faith only interprets it through several milenia of Rabbinical deliberation.

Most of Jesus' statements come from either the OT or these interpretations by Rabbis.
Posted by logic, Friday, 4 August 2006 10:50:08 PM
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Did CNN sanitize its coverage of the Qana massacre for American consumption?

"CNN anchor pointed out, these were guided missiles. The freaking codes have been found! It's not an accident and, as Robert Fisk points out, no matter what laws Hezbollah is violating by using civilians as cover, does this excuse the deliberate killing of children?....According to Fisk, this wouldn't be the first time the Israelis have lied about where rockets were fired from:
Great rebuttal by CNN anchor against a Israel Spokeswomen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6fn5NZ6LBk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ealternet%2Eorg%2Fblogs%2Fpeek%2F39828%2F

watch the first interview - then watch what Americans watched

I have said it before on another forum and I will say it here again:-

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have never had a homeland ......

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have never been honest, nor trusted........

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have lied, connived and falsified documentation for aggressive attacks ......

And now .... well no difference whatever, for the so called Jews now in Israel have no connection whatever to the land they have usurped from the long term residents .... and you want terrorists, try starting with the Jews themselves, from the Jew Kapos who decided who was to live and who was to die in the concentration camps - to the Jews controlling the NKVD who killed and murdered more than 20 million Russians ...... BUT wait – they were not real people – they were not Jews were they? …. Or were they different Jews?

View these photos

http://www.assafir.com/iso/israeli-aggression/regions/teir-harfa/pages/image/imagepage1.html
http://www.assafir.com/iso/israeli-aggression/regions/teir-harfa/pages/image/imagepage5.html

Then, come cry on my shoulder - you miserable little minded people.
Posted by Kekenidika, Friday, 4 August 2006 11:48:14 PM
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Logic
I discussed the Old Testament because I see it as the root cause of the present war. Now not only did I look at the OT I also read it and that is why I reject it as immoral.It is full of atrocities and genocides urged and rewarded by God.
As for needing millenia to interptet the OT correctly, could not God who is all-wise and omniscient have written something plain and unambiguous so that all could understand his words without the need of Rabbinical interpreters?
Posted by fdixit, Saturday, 5 August 2006 12:38:28 PM
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fdixit

I don't believe any more than you do that a God produced the OT. But if you are discussing Judaism you can only do it through the Rabbinical interpretations. That is the religion, take it or leave it. This conflict is not about the OT. The Israelis religious or otherwise have not interpreted it the way you have.

The source of the conflict is because large sections of Christians and Muslims have been nasty to Jews (and equally to each other). Many Jews (about one third of the total) moved to Israel to avoid persecution by one or the other. They did not come with armies but bought land. Terrible conflicts started in which the Jews successfully defended themselves. Perhaps with far less sensitivity than they could have shown. There was movement of Arabs out of Israel and Jews out of Arab lands. ( approximately the same numbers). The conflict for the Israelis is for continued existence. At least they have treated their own Muslims with equality which is something in their favour.

The only part the Bible plays is in the emotional historic attraction of the ancient homeland.
Posted by logic, Saturday, 5 August 2006 8:27:42 PM
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Kekenidika,

I find your anti-"Jews" statements as abhorent as inaccurate. For a start, I have yet to meet a person belonging to the constructed category of a particular race - in your case "Jews". Race is a convenient colonial device created to assign negative characteristics to those that may look different or those living in far away places in order to take away their land and to subjugate them through malice, greed and envy and, when all else fails by killing them. Colonial pursuits such as those undertaken by Zionists since 1896 - which are again different from people practicing Judaism - are not interested in the subtle differences that distinguish one culture from another. Colonials are mostly made up of economic or military warriors who look upon difference as inconvenience rather than enrichement: warriors so devoid of refinement that they are unable to see the value of differences within themselves.

Mireille
Posted by Mireille, Saturday, 5 August 2006 8:51:29 PM
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Now that is a real strange comment you have made now Mireille...

You say my anti-"Jews" statement to be abhorrent and inaccurate, but unfortunately they have a fairly historical accuracy which is really fairly difficult to ignore, but maybe I am wrong perhaps....?

As for the colonialist (I presume here you mean modern day colonialists?) or perhaps you would go back as far as antiquity, let us say the days of the Egyptians, or even come forward to the Greeks and Romans.... Surely they are not in what is now the excised land now called Israel, hiding amongst those innocent pacifist people practising "Judaism"

Of course you then switch across to the good old "Zionists....." Now just who are these Zionists ... exactly where have they sprung from and where are they now? What are they doing right now? And why only from 1896? Why this particular year ... and where did they start to expand their empire?

I would of course be interested in your response to this - I am always open to enlightenment.
Posted by Kekenidika, Saturday, 5 August 2006 9:54:26 PM
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@MIRIELLE
I see there is yet much work to be done, to clarify the fuzzy head with which you appear to have written your article.

Quote:
“As such, non-Jewish Arabs have no rights to the protection of the state that all citizens of the world enjoy in their capacity as citizens of states.”

That is either an outright lie and misrepresentation at worst or a sloppy and shabby statement based on ‘opinion’ rather than fact at best. In either case it deserves a rebuke !

Did you have your brain turned on when you wrote that ? “no rights” is rather sweeping. I suggest you research this more b4 providing fuel for those who would like to suggest to your employer that they are more worthy of your job than you.

You might have ‘just’ got away with ‘less rights’ or.. ‘differing rights’ but.. NO rights ? * frown *

Then there is this:

Quote:

“Israel’s legal system makes it perfectly legitimate to take away the small plots of land that Palestinian families have owned for generations”

COMMENT yes.. JUST as Australia’s and most other Western countries legal system provides for ‘compulsory acquisition’ of land for state purposes.

and

“These plots of lands are then levelled and given to the Israel Land Administration who then decides to whom to give them.”

COMMENT Yep.. just like yours and mine would be levelled in order for the Freeway or other state purpose to be carried out.

and

“It's needless to point out here that these lands and houses would not be given back to an Arab family. And the world is silent about these injustices.”

COMMENT Yep..just as land acquired by the Australian government would not be given back to its owners, or any other person, which conflicted with the “state purpose”

and the reason ‘The World’ remains silent is because its a fact of life for all of us.

CONCLUSION:
You are using a lot of ‘programmed’ terminology “collective punishment” and the such like which suggests you have more of a skewed political agenda than a ‘truth’ agenda.
Balance....not “BS” please.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 6 August 2006 2:24:01 PM
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Logic
There is a rejoinder to your last post which readers can make for themselves.
I am exiting this debate as I have said all I want to say.
Before I go I assure you that my philosophy is one of non-violence and goodwill to all.
Cheers,
Posted by fdixit, Sunday, 6 August 2006 4:23:41 PM
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History has clearly shown that the innocent suffer from war, governments achieve financialy and religious groups/sects become alot more extreme. Whats changed or any different now?
Posted by Youssef, Monday, 7 August 2006 11:41:36 PM
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