Well said Nahum, but I fear the US/Israel Juggernaut has taken fanatacism to new heights and they are more likely to extend the conflict to Syria and Iran.......As the American simpleton President said, Syria has got to stop Hezbollah doing this sh*t.
I feel frustrated with our own governments one sided alignment with US policies and feel powerless to do more than wring my hands and grieve for the innocents slaughtered while our leaders utter useless platitudes. I will again express my anger in another letter to our Prime Minister.

Nahum

Exactly. This conflict should not be viewed in terms of 'moral high ground' it should be viewed in terms of solutions.

The 'solution' is, as far as possible to provide just outcomes for all stake holders.

Lets look at who they are and what they have lost/gained.

The main protagonists would be the Arab Muslims and possibly some Arab Christians who have lost land in the formation of the State of Israel.

Lost Arab land ? there is as much chance of the Arab Muslims regaining it as there is of John Howard handing the keys of Kirribilli to Gary Foley.

Acquisition of land for the State of Israel is similar to compulsory acquisition of OUR land by our government. The ISSUE is....... "lost land/Compensation"

The most anyone can expect in this situation is:

Compensation/Alternative land.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of land available for this purpose, and it would NEVER be provided within the state of Israel.

I've proposed solutions in other threads invovling re-settling Arab Muslims in other Muslim countries. Perhaps readers might refer to my other posts for details, but in summary.

1/ Move Hezbollah and its supporters to Syria and Iran. i.e. ALL of them. There is no distinction between Hezbollah 'soldiers' and civillians.

2/ Move ALL Arab Muslims from refugee camps in Gaza/Westbank to South Lebanon north of a buffer zone.

3/ Create housing, land packages, and employment opportunities in regions of Tyre and Sidon which would meet the needs of the displaced Palestinian Muslims. (International community and Israel and the likes of George Soros to pool resources for this) If this means buying land from local lebanese, then so be it. The displaced Hezbollah land will be available to Palestinian Muslims.

Hezbollah has disqualified itself from anything other than exile and dispersion by its unending warlike attitude

Problem solved.

For those who passionately disagree with my take on things, please provide WORKABLE ALTERNATIVE solutions.
By all means disagree with me, but give reasons please.
Reasons such as 'Your are an armchair Nazi/Your crazy/You stink' will not be accepted :)

I agree, well said. But your suggestion that citizens stand up against their stupid governments is devoid of content. How? Which citizens? Should the women, following Greek drama, refuse to provide sex to the men until it all stops? I respect your anger and frustration, but you offer no way forward. And note that more than 300 years later (not just another 60) the opposed groups in Northern Ireland still haven't found a way forward.

Very interesting. We all want solutions to intractable problems. But sometimes there are no solutions. For Israel it is a matter of survial, and they will do what they have to do for as long as necessary. For the Palestinians and Hezbollah, how long do they want to keep going on like this? Lebanon was not threatened by Israel and the Israelis had vacated Gaza.

This conflict began before we were born and will still be going long after we are dead. Perhaps we, accustomed to seeking solutions and consensus in a post-modernist world where everything can be resolved if only we are reasonable and communicate, are the ones who cannot recognise the reality confronting us.

Nahum: You need to do your homework first before you write about this subject:-
1)The Arab-Israeli war was 48-9, not 47.
2)There is no state of "Palestine"...yet. There are Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories, and their inhabitants have been living for decades under a brutal military occupation. The fact that the word 'occupation' is missing from your polemic renders what you've written pretty much useless.
3)"Territory (sic) concessions from both sides" misconstrues the history. Israel was ordered out of Egypt by Eisenhower in 56; the only thing Israel has conceded from its 67 aggression has been Sinai, and Egypt had to go to war in 73 to achieve that; Israel was forced out of Lebanon in the 90's by Hizbollah and out of Gaza last year by Hamas. The Jewish state was not built on concessions but on forcibly acquiring territory and hanging on to it until forced out.
4) Your 'understanding' of the issue is predicated on a false equivalence: (eg "two petulant propagandists"). Since when do we place occupier & occupied, abuser & abused on the same level?
5) "Subversive [Pal] militia": Since when is resisting occupation 'subversion'?
6) "The victims are the citizens of both Israel and Palestine [!]": Haven't you noticed a colossal asymmetry in victims - consistent with the dynamics of occupier/occupied?
7) Palestine, poorer because it lacks the stream of finance from diaspora cousins, still manages to starve its citizens..." This is woeful: What you call Palestine is under an ever-tightening Israeli military and economic siege for God's sake and has been since 2000.
8) "Unintended victims of Israeli aggression": This is probably the stupidest comment of the lot. Since the Zionist project got under way in Palestine in earnest it's been abundantly clear that Israel wants Palestine, renamed Israel, WITHOUT the Palestinians. How therefore they can be described as "unintended victims" is beyond me. They are and always have been THE target.
9) The issue is one of decolonization - impeded by decades of US support for a colonial-settler state with imperial pretensions.

For a person who claims he is studying theology, isnt it a bit strange to write an epistle on the Israeli/Palestinian et al, problem and NOT mention the role of Islam.

This murderous death cult with its view of the world being them and everyone else, is probably the single most identifiable cause of all.

What about the role of the idiot madman in Iraq,Ahmadninejad and his view about the imminence of the 12th Mahdi etc, and the repeated claims of the various mad mullahs in the region that Israel should be wiped off the map.

But, bigmal, isn't it the POINT that all sides need to try and stop and let go of their old predjudices? Whatever their religion? This eye-for-an-eye stuff has been going on so long that probably no-one even remembers a time when peace was the dominant situation.

Even where both sides are using religion as part of their justification, at a personal level, the justification is the effect of the actions of each side on indivduals.
"Your side took our land."
"Your side threw stones."
"Your side car-bombed."
"Your side launched rockets."
"My family's future was destroyed."
"My children were killed"
"My parents were captured and tortured"
"You bombed our water supply"
"You bombed our hospital"

Who is who? Who are the Israelis? Who are the Palestinians? Who are the Syrians, Lebanese, etc?

All sides have suffered massive losses, pain, injustices of various types over the years. But an eye-for-an-eye is NEVER going to let anyone win. Not when each person has had so much individual pain, and feels someone else should pay for that suffering.

Bigmal and Strewth...

Thanks for providing example of the ingrained attitudes and arguments for each side that has fed the conflict for the past 60-odd years.
If I was ever at all unclear on the point Ayliffe was making, it is now cleared up.

Cheers.

Onya Laurie :) you finally 'get' it... 'eye for an eye' will solve nothing.

Hooray....

Now maybe you and others would get an inkling of why I advocate compensation for lost land and disersion to areas removed from Israel.
Oh.. you might want to check if there is a FREEWAY plan going through your block :) it might get 'occupied'.

I would also advocate that Israel assume full control of the West Bank but Arab inhabitants would be barred from ever 'voting' Israel out of its position. This would be entrenched in a constitutional change. Loyalty to the Israeli State or.....OUTski

Vladimer Putin has the right idea "We dont WANT US style democracy"...hmm...why would that be ? perhaps he sees the weakness of all this muddling around we do with the left and right always at each others throats. Perhaps he sees how the 'free press' (which is never 'free' from the prejudices of its owners and editors) undermines according to political whim.

Democracy can be defined at the constitutional level according to the direction founding fathers want for a country.

West Bank and indeed ALL Palestinians were ruled by the Ottomans. Did they have a democratic choice about that ? err...nope.
Only the Palestinians who have been internally displaced through lost land and agriculture have a genuine gripe and if just 'land' is the issue, its fixable. But if 'Islamic land' is the issue, only deportation and absorption will fix it.

I've emailed my proposed solution to every Zionist person in Australia who I can find on their website and to the Jerusalem Post.

Strewn is the classic example of why there can be no such thing as anything other than an "Islamic/Arab dominance or nothing" approach by him and his pro-Islamic Ilk. He is irrelevant to serious discussion. He is in denial about the movement of history and the current chapter being written.

Laurie, Jeremy29 had some honest thoughts, what are urs ? how do you actually 'solve' the problem ?

I'm most interested in peoples alternative strategies.

Less BLAME, Less SHAME.. and more SOLUTIONS. (Workable ones only)

I understand Nahum's frustration and how other posters see it, but the problem goes back thousands of years and hasn't changed, they just move it around a bit. It's caused by self-righteous indignation, because another god faction is claiming ownership to the origins of their violent myths.

Sadly for Nahum and Boaz the solution is right in front of them. Rid the world of god and we rid the world of a belief system causing more death and destruction than nature. That won't happen as they're all intent on destroying everything, to be most like their god.

The tactics used by monotheists, are as violent as their technology and power will allow. It sickens me to hear people like Boaz trying to make out he's compassionate, yet quick to justify the barbaric actions of those he supports.

When you have so many people from all sides, refusing to take responsibility for what their belief system is doing. Don't you wonder about the veracity of their claims and the state of their mental condition, after all no sane person would wish harm to another.

I would've thought an evolved, truly compassionate and ethical person would do all they could to ensure the survival of those less fortunate than them and the maintenance of their psychological state. However with all the evidence before us, it appears ethics have no place in the minds of monotheists, just illusionary self-righteous morals representing suppression and injury of peoples physical and psychological lives.

Why do those who desire a spiritual life bereft of material wealth as preached by their lord, destroy or support destruction against the wishes of their chosen one. Why do they need a jewish state, except for power and control. But it shows the true expression and approach of god's followers, they can't even accept each other.

Anyone with sense and true compassion would never be involved with this despotic god and the results it provides for the world.

I dont hear the Israelis saying we want to wipe anyone off the map.
I do hear them saying we want a right to exist.

I dont hear anyone from any other religion saying that all infidels should be done away with, particularly if they wont sign up to our idea of religion, or pay the Jizjah tax and be dhimmies.

It is after all Islamic terrorism, not Happy Clappy, or Baptist Ladies Guild terrorism we are dealing with, it is pure and simple Islamic Terrorism. The jihadists are by definition Islamic.

At least the world leaders are now calling it for what it is, root and branch Islamic in origin.

The only differences are whether it is Shia or Sunni, but they all using the same Hymn sheet to source their violent purposes and role in life.

Oh of course Syria is using it it prop up a corrupt and non democratic regime, and Iran is using it to spread smoke screen over their development of nuclear weapons but behind it all,it comes back to Islam.

Bismal you are brainwashed,

Terror! islam! jihad! terrorist! terrorist! muslim! radical!jihadists! extremist! threaten! war on terror! terror! terror! TERROR!

Scared yet? I'll bet you are because you sound like Fox news with the volume up

Guess what mate, terrorism was around long belong Islam even existed, and will still be around long after were dead so you should just wake and realise this is all geopolitics, we are being programmed to believe we are under threat so that we can lay down and accept indefinte war. The sooner you realise this the sooner you can focus your attention on the real threats to our way of life.

Nahum,

The Middle-East is a far more complex place than just Israel vs Palestinians. For centuries, waves of Islamic and other invaders from from the east have shapped the politics of the region. Internal factional fighting has destabalised the region since Mohammad.

The Middle-East has always been a cross-roads for trade. Asia lies to the east, Europe to the west and Africa to the south. It's geographic location has historically been critical for overland and sea trade between these three continents, and those that controlled the trade routes taxed them handsomely. And there is religion.

The biggest problem with just waving the magic wand and wishing peace will not happen with unilateral Israeli disarming. In the last year or two, Israel had abondoned Gaza and Trans-Jordan (West Bank), they had previously withdrawn from the 20-mile buffer zone in Southern Lebanon, only to find that the justification for military occupation has been realised - that these areas are being used by Terrorist (Hamas and Hezbollah) to lauch attacks against Israeli men, women and children.

In some ways GWB was correct, if Syria and Iran stopped urging the Terrorist on then Israel wouldn't need to defend itself. What would you have Israel do, just sit back and take it? As far as I can see, Israel conceeded much and has been rewarded with rocket attacks against them. Someone earlier in the week said "if Hezbollah disarms there will be peace, if Israel disarms there will be a blood bath".

Israel and Palestine have been fighting for 60 years, and barring a major catastrophe will continue for another 60.

Neither side senses the suffering of the other bigmal, and while Israel has never said publicly it wants to wipe Palestine off the map its actions tell us otherwise.

The point of my piece was to express frustration with a system which does not allow for adaptation of humankind. In fact, it procludes it because of vested interests. I'm interested in alternatives, in evolution.

Alchemist has some interesting perspectives. God IS the problem. Abolish God and our problems will be solved. But which God? The perpetually militant Israelis have long since left behind the God of Israel and constructed a new God of the unrestrained power accessible through possession of the sacred bricks and mortar in Jerusalem. The radical Muslims have cast aside Allah preferring to construct a violent God of homicidal martyrdom. The Christians of the Crusades, and of Hitler's Reich left behind the revolutionary Jesus for a Machiavellian God of harmful homogeneity, a God that gave legitimacy to their insanity. At the root, it's about power. God is the only logic that can be readily applied to ridiculous ideologies.

Both sides would claim to have God on their side in this conflict. In truth, God isn't on either side. Perhaps this is what we need to realize. God isn't in dichotomies. In all of the monotheistic faiths, God is about equality and justice. (The Bible mentions justice over 2100 times.) In embracing this God, we must divest ourselves of power.

Perpetual violence is a function of persistent inequality. In capitalism, someone always prospers at the expense of another. The very notion of equilibrium implies that for me to enjoy luxuries, others must go without.

This isn't a tiresome tirade against capitalism. It's about peace, justice and equality. For there to be peace, something must be willingly sacrificed by one side. One party must make an unthinkable concession. But if power is our God, then this will never happen and the unwilling sacrifices will continue to mount up.

Shakespeare had it in Hamlet when he spoke of armies who would go to their graves over a patch of land not continent enough to bury the dead. This conflict is a deadly game of chicken, a juvenile pissing contest. Nobody is winning.

If you wanted to be cynical, you could suggest that the only way for the arabs and the jews to resolve their differences would be to follow the one proposed in 1947 by Sir Stafford Cripps; that is, they should settle their differences in a true christian spirit.

Joking aside, it is clear to me that there is no solution except the destruction of Israel that will be acceptable to the arabs. They believe that time is on their side, and look back to the period of the crusades when it took them 200 years to expel the invaders. The important thing for us to discuss is where Australia's interests lie.
The overwhelming factor here is that the forces Israel is fighting are the same that have been killing Australians since 2001; islamic facism.
I would therefore suggest that as far as the middle east is concerned, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, Iran, etc., are our enemy, and Israel is our ally.

Nahum,
A thoughtful article. Pride forbids them forgiving the other.

Carl,
I am interested to know what you see as the real threats to our way of life if Islamic terrorists are not more than pacifists in comparison.
"The sooner you realise this the sooner you can focus your attention on the real threats to our way of life"

Why is it that guys like Alchemist constantly refer to how belief in God has caused so much death, yet ignore the number of deaths from atheistic societies which are an order of magnitude higher.

Nahum is frustrated, and I completely understand. The conflict has been one long botch job by the international community as much as anything. I don't think however, simply telling people to get over their current mindset is going to help the issue. The arab world has been trying to destroy Israel for years, that aint going to stop with wishful thinking.

So what is the solution? Given our world's current proclivity for trying to hold status quo with nations, there is no solution. Lebanon's government is obviously impotent to rule their own country. Israel, in spite of giving back Gaza is now rewarded with a thousand rocket attacks, so they are not really going to listen to the international community about the peace process for a long time. Palestine is ruled by terrorists. Iran and Syria are supporting Hezbollah.

What most people seem to forget is that ultimately statehood comes down to force. You need to be able to exercise enough force to control and run your country (cf lebanon), and you need to be able to exercise enough force to protect your country. Words are all well and good, but ultimately, push always comes to shove.

My solution is harsher than most. It deals with motivations. Palestine continues to use terrorist attacks to try and force israel to give them land. That is their motivation (short-term a state, long term no israel). Israel can either positively or negatively reinforce these actions. Since the motivation is land, Israel simply needs to turn it on its head. For every terrorist attack, they need to acquire land from the Palestinians. Make this clear to the Palestinians.

Philo,

More than happy to explain that for you.

I see the increasing militarism and lack of respect for democratic values on which our nation was founded as the real threat to our way of life. Governments in the west are increasingly seeing civil liberties as nothing more than obstacle to their military goals. This is a threat to our way of life.

The government here, and especially in the US have drastically undermined the integrity of our electoral systems, allowing larger corporate donations, and is the US, dodgy as voting machines. This is a threat to our way of life.

Our federal Government has just announced new media laws that will allow greater consolidation for large corporate media outlets, thus limiting the flow of information to citizens. This is a threat to our way of life.

And finally, our govt. is increasingly ruling the population through fear. We live in one of the wealthiest, safest, and most prosperous nations on earth, we are the envy of billions of people all over the world, yet we are constantly told that we are under threat, that we have something to fear, something called terrorism, even though far more people die driving to work than they do from terrorism. Governance by fear is a threat to our way of life.

And the founding fathers of the US and Australia would agree with me.

Carl

So would some of the fathers of today!

Nahum, its irrelevant which god, they all have the same expression from their followers. When people fight to the death supporting what they can't see, feel or know, other than through death, is it any wonder violence and death are a very visible and prominent part of their expression towards others.

Sadly, both sides have god on their side, like all monotheists they have to violently prove their god is with them. As their gods do nothing to change this approach, it surely must support it, considering the amount of power attributed to it by its followers and the lengths they go to suppress any opposition, even non violent intellectual opposition, how can we beleive otherwise.

As love is the implied expression of god, yet violence is the actual expression, where is the veracity in what's implied.

Your statement, “For there to be peace, something must be willingly sacrificed by one side.”

That's only true for those locked in fantasy. The only sacrifice needed for peace, is acceptance of other non destructive and non controlling ethics and values. Acceptance is peace, sacrifice is submission.

The brain-dead have no other answer than destroy the dispossessed of the middle east, disrupting many countries. As Israel was established by a war against the local populace and is financially supported by all Jewish enclaves throughout the world, it would be simpler to move the jews to other countries and allow the middle east to return to some semblance of sanity.

Alan Grey, hiding behind lies is typical of monotheistic veracity, place before the world verifiable facts, regarding monotheisms positive contribution to the world. The verifiable evidence shows monotheism has destroyed more of the worlds people and cultures than anything else, or remain unbelievable as does your god.

Two thousand years of constant cultural genocide and war throughout every place monotheism invades, is surely more significant that 50 years of localised communism, supported by local monotheists.

Carl points out eminently how suppressive the followers of god are, forcing us to sacrifice our freedoms to give them more control over our lives, typical monotheists..

Perhaps I'm being trite here, but what the hell...

Gods don't kill people. People do..

What you say is correct Alchemist, but my point is that it's a gross misrepresentation of God that people use when backing up their violent idealism. And it's an abrogation of personal moral responsibility. I'm doing this in God's name. To do it in my own name would be unthinkably immoral.

So God is misappropriated, time and time again. But there is a greater and far more moral mythicism which God is. And it's an existential conundrum. For our lives to have any meaning, there must be a point at which our narrative exists as part of a bigger story.

If there is no underlying mythic God of love, justice, equality and peace, then is there any point to non-violence? It's dog eat dog, rat eat rat, as Mark Knopfler once wrote.

As humans, our spirits are lifted by the hope we find in God. Think of the great and mythic speeches; "All men (and women) are created equal", stories of passive resistance like those of Ghandi, Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King. These are the stories of God for me. This inspires me to a greater personal responsibility, and a moral mindfulness.

To advocate that God is responsible by inaction is a little unfair. We are all guilty by our inaction. To point the finger at a particular religious group because of their hypocrisy is to forget our own hypocrisy. Our very existence in the west is a manifestation of hypocrisy at the expense of the poor in the world.

There is much good that has been done in the name of God, as well as some misappropriation, Alchemist. To focus only on the one is possibly a little unfair on God.

Alchemist, the only one lying here is you. It is a verifiable fact that Atheistic societies were responsible for somewhere around 200 million deaths in the 20th century. 100 years. Religious civilisations may have been around for thousands of years, but even in all that time, they have barely touched the murder count of atheism in 20 times the duration.

RJ Rummel's decades of research has plenty of data to make this clear. Check out the table http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF (look at the bottom) or even
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
There are ample resources if you want to bother with knowing the truth instead of regurgitating the pitiful anti-religous bigotry that you errornously seem to think is remotely related to reality.

Perhaps you should also check out the black book of communism.

The numbers don't like Alchemist. You do.

Stop with the lies and embrace reality.

Carl,

Your points are not unreasonable, and to a some extent I agree with them. However.

The issue of Terrorism was more in the context of the current war going on between the Israelis and Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a listed terrorist organisation, that is supported by both Syria and Iran, neither of which are known for the enlightened approach to world affairs.

Iran in particular has repeatedly said that it wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Rest assurred if they win that round, it won't be long before we are in their sights precisely because that is their religious belief.There will be no peace until the whole world is part of their Ummah, and it doesnt matter if it is Shia or Sunni, they both are persuing the same end.

In terms of constancy of threat, I rate terrorism Islam and its underlying moronic religious platform a far greater threat to western society, than some internal difficulties with way democracy is being distorted by coteries of various elites. At least we can do something about the latter, but Islamicism as yet another totalarian system, is another matter.

I am not brain washed at all, just a realist who has bothered to do my homework,and been involved up close with the Islamic ways.

Carl,

Sorry to tell you this but despite the romanticized history to the contrary, the US founding fathers actually did not intend a Government elected by the people.

They wanted their Government to be directly appointed by the wealthy and influential members of society.

For various reasons, this model could not be implemented and eventually everybody (including women) won the right to vote.

Likewise, Australia was federalised mainly to keep out Chinese immigrants, although this aspect has been modified and forgotten over the years.

History is replete with constant revisionism.

I do agree wholeheartedly with your observation that we are ruled by fear.

It goes beyond Government as well. Watch any tabloid "current affairs" programme and you will see what the next everyday thing to fear is. (Fast Food, escalators, microwave ovens, medications...)

When Fear doesn't work, Greed and Ignorance are fighting for second place.

In all cases they use our own self-interest and prejudices to control us.

I suspect that some of it even spills over into Forums like this from time to time.

You have hit on a tough one, Nanum. But you should be commended for your point of view, especially as the over-eager Israelis are following the Old Testament rule of any means to an end, rather than more the Sermon on the Mount perspective of love your enemy, which actually means place yourself in the position of your enemy to find out whether your hatred is justified.

Certainly any means to an end is glaringly seen in bombing apartment buildings where Hizbollah might be only using one floor, etc, the total destruction of an airport which could have been used to get holiday makers out quickly especially as Lebanon was relying so much on tourism as the main means of national income.

Certainly the Jews as a people have been immorally persecuted over the centuries more than any race under the sun. Further, we must admit that Jewish intellectual skill, even though mixed with an obvious shrewdness, has always worried leaders of countries not only concerning business, but also many Jews are skilled in activism, as Karl Marx, a born Jew, was also typical. Henry Kissinger is also an example, as certainly are the many neo-cons who now frequent the White House, gaining appointments like Paul Wolfowitz, who is now head of the World Bank.

Yet again, it must be admitted that if a race of people has exceptional skill regarding the human thought process, we must not condemn them for it, as we do not condemn, without mentioning names, Jewish persons who have only recently become billionaires here in Australia.

But as Jewish persons are also mentally equipped with a certain romanticism coupled with a special friendliness, they should worry that their means to an end tactics in Lebanon might split Jewish opinions, even as regards the pestering by Hizbollah, which compared to the martial sting that Israel has along with American backing, Hizbollah will never get much beyond heavy pestering unless Iran comes into the picture, maybe with borrowed atomic warheads from North Korea, or even from Russia or China

Bigmal,

I take your point, I object wholeheartedly to the Iranian rhetoric also, it does their image and the image of Muslims a lot of harm (although I believe that the comment about wiping Israel off the map has been distorted and exagerated and I do beleive Iran is within its rights to feel bullied and threatened)

But I must disagree about our domestic issues being second to the issue of terrorism. I think they are related. What right do we have to lecture other countries on democracy and liberty when they are clearly being eroded here? How are we going to rid the world of ammoral fundamentalist groups like Hezbollah when we are on our own ammoral military quest for resources in the middle east?

Its called leading by example, and while it may seem like airy-fairy, unrealistic tripe I beleive it is our best hope of long term peace.

Bushbred Part Two

We could go on here about the balance of power philosophy, strongly pursued by the US and the Soviets during the Cold War, and which no doubt did prevent either side having a big city virtually destroyed by just one nuclear missile, especially with fallout. Vladimir Putin should know all about it. An Iran with martial nuclear capacity, secretly arranged from both sides, might be just the thing to quieten down Israel’s atomic enterprising, as well as making Iranian leaders realise how a couple of nuclear rockets from both sides, could possibly pollute the whole Middle East.

Finally in regard to the whole Middle East problem, a contributour to the Letter Page in our West Australian points out how Islamic nations never complain about how Western nations run their own affairs but Islamists do rightfully complain about Western nations talking about bringing in democracy, when ever since WW1 from the West it’s been mostly graft and grab.

However can Middle East peoples trust us for their future, especially when Israel is backed so much by America, virtually having a US license to extend her Promised Land

WAR on TERROR

or..

WAR on ENEMIES ?

It is rediculous to declare a 'war on terror' suggesting that 'we' have some inherant moral high ground, and 'they' do not.

Its all a matter of perspective. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Just depends on what your passport says.

Dig deep enough and you will find morally repugnant aspects to ALL our histories. Dig a bit more close to home and we might find some unpalatable truths about ourselves on an individual basis.

So, this leads to.....'what is in our interests'. Of course, if we can seek to maintain moral high ground in the persuit of our legitimate interests, this is a good thing.

But again, an Israeli's "Forced acquisition of Strategically crucial territory" (e.g. Golan Heights) is a Syrians "greedy land grab".
Given the fact that the Syrians used the Golan Heights to shell Israel, it gives some justification to the acquisition of the territory by Israel.

Israel must re-shape the middle east to rid itself of the perenial squabbles and random rocket attacks, suicide bombers etc.

It must also re-shape the area for the long term benefit of the displaced Palestinians. (send them to Southern Lebanon as per my 'Final Solution')

Palestinians are descendants of Arab invaders. No moral high ground there.

WAR CRIMES ?

Attacking 'non combatant civilians' such as the emotive pictures linked to us by Keith, and today news 'analysts' suggesting this might be a War Crime... well, I also saw an interview with a fleeing Shia/Hizbollah family, a mother saying "I'm not escaping, I'm moving and will send my children back to fight Israel".....

"Innocent" civilians ? "Innocent" women and children ?

Blown up by a child or blown up by an adult....You are still dead.

Children who will be moulded into suicide bombers are legitimate targets and their PARENTS are responsible for their deaths !

It is interesting that with all the rhetoric from our leaders like Howard and Bush, they refuse to be responsible in protecting our own citizens.

The European nations evacuated their citizens quick-smart. So did every other responsible country on earth. They actually care about their citizens. Howard couldn't care less about Australian citizens in other countries. Howard lets our citizens on Australian Passports down: time and time again. Howard just wants trade trade trade.

What do we hear from Howard and Bush? Dribble, dribble, dribble! Australia abandoned our own citizens in Lebannon for too long, just like Bush abandoned the People of New Orleans after Hurrican Katrina. Did they evacuate fast? NO! Dribble, dribble, dribble, and people were left to starve to death. War in Iraq is more important than our own citizens.

We have been betrayed by our own leaders. I take no position on Israel or Lebannon. Our interest is to look after Australia. Sticking our nose into their business leads to more abandoned people, less cooperation from Europe since Australia is so "on-the-nose" internationally with the US. Of course we are the last ones on the wharf waiting while bombs surround the families.

We are now at danger of terrorism, not because Islamics hate Australia, but because Australia stuck its nose into something that is none of our business. Not only that, but our Government jumps up and down drawing attention to us, trying to convince terrorists that Australia is somehow important in world security. Our land is then on the hit list, just as Howard wanted.

I summise: get Australians out of Lebannon fast! Get our troops out of Iraq fast! Get out of this stupid coalition with the US. It is time to think of Australia first. No matter what side you are on, you must be on Australia's side. Let us think for our own citizens rather than for the interests of the US and Israel. They can look after themselves. They should let us look after our own people.

It is wise to stay out and get on with running our own country.

Alan grey, desperate to support illusion eh. I'll leave it to others to determine your veracity regarding the links. Demographic deaths caused by governments has no relation to deaths caused by monotheistic invasion throughout the world, nor the number of people destroyed by any ideology.

Hitler was actively supported by the catholic and Jewish Church, Marx supported by the orthodox and Jewish church, virtually every other
war actively supported by the resident monotheists faction.

You reinforce the growing belief held by many intelligent psychological scholars, that monotheists display classical symptoms of pathological psychopathy, in their desperate and violent desire against all the evidence to be right.

Your can either be right against fact, or have peace, not both. That's why monotheism is so violent, it must enforce and suppress to get its illusions across, it lacks substance, only supported by delusion and suppressive violence.

This in typical psychopathic behaviour, delusion overtakes reality. When the deluded realise they are losing and reality is breaking down their fantasy, they resort to denial, confrontation, threats, blame shifting, then violence and illusionary justification.

Keep up the good work Alan, you and your ilk are certainly not letting the side down.

Nahum, God is never misappropriated, if you support something, you use it, not misappropriate it, another poor excuse.

“stories of passive resistance like those of Ghandi, Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King. “

Again you use violence as a measure for your belief, revelling in death.

Morals are a religious suppression, ethics are universal

“As humans, our spirits are lifted by the hope we find in God “,

The only hope in god is death, there's no other evidence available, except delusion and revolving door fantasy. We're all hypocrites until we find the truth of ourselves. That only comes when your free of dogma and meaningless illusion, take full responsibility and accept the reality of change and difference. Until then you are just a manipulated clone of illusion, a monotheist.

Bushbred, don't forget the hundreds of years of persecution and genocide, suffered by the many millions of non violent Romany, inflicted by all god factions

Ah Alchemist, does your irrationality know any bounds.
I provide links to data gleaned from decades of research and all you provide is rhetoric. If death caused by governments has no relation to deaths caused by monotheistic invasion, then how do you know how many deaths have been caused by said invasions? If deaths caused by the atheistic communist regime's do not have to do with ideology what does?

Your painfully transparent attempt at an ad hominem and appeal to authority by involing 'intelligent psychological scholars' which are never named is just another example of your bankrupt argument.

When you provide the numbers to prove your ridiculous assertion instead of just this nonsensical rant I will listen. Until then, your unhinged rant only serves to demonstrate that you are the one who is deluded and in denial. The death and destruction caused by the religion of Atheism has been the worst in history. If you look into it, many of the guilty atheists spewed the same bigoted antitheistic rubbish that you are regurgitating here.

This is further evidenced by your nonsensical comments to Nahum
"God is never misappropriated, if you support something, you use it, not misappropriate it" You seem unable to even consider the idea of an Objectively real personal God. Such an intellectual failing is obviously part of your lack of rationality.

"Morals are a religious suppression, ethics are universal"
This is even more ridiculous than your claims about monotheistic violence. There is no difference between morality and ethics. If there is no God, there is no such thing and so by your own beliefs you are spouting irrational nonsense.

There is at least one thing we agree on though. Truth is important. It is just a pity you are so close minded and bigoted, otherwise you might turn and realise how little of your beliefs are rational.

Bushbred,

"Certainly the Jews as a people have been immorally persecuted over the centuries more than any race under the sun"

This is a common assumption whenever someone talks about the Jews, but is it really fair?

Some historians say 1.5 million and others say up to 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. There is just no evidence to support the numbers, but lets just accept, say 3 million dead.

In WW2 something like 40-50 million people died. Why are the Jews so special that their dead must be commerated in every city in the world with special days, memorials, museums and so forth. What about the 20 million Russians (moslty civilians) that died? Do they count for nothing? What about the millions upon millions of Chinese who died under the brutal Japanese occupation?

Have you ever heard of black slavery?

Something like 3000 children die every day TODAY due to preventable diseases like diarrhea. But all we ever hear about is 'Jewish suffering'.

The Jews are about the wealthiest, best educated, most organised, politically active and well funded religious/ethnic group in the world.

The world is full of suffering and always has been. But obviously, if you have the money and politcal muscle, it's only your suffering that counts.

Alchemist, are you sure the Jews supported Hitler?

This article was originally about the redundancy of arguments appealing to the high moral ground. Somewhere in this conflict, one side has to take responsibility for their part in this tragedy.

The Israeli army has to take responsibility for a history of disproportionate responses and incursions, the latest of which is happening in Lebanon presently. Instead of justifying their action with the cliched arguments, "Hezbollah are terrorists, and if Lebanon won't take action, then we must take action to protect our citizens and win the return of our soldiers," Israel must take responsibility for the part it has played in this tragedy.

And if Israel is too juvenile, unable to consider its own complicity, then Lebanon must, in calling for peace, appeal to Hezbollah to stop its actions. It must also accept some responsibility for it's failure to stop Hezbollah.

And the Palestinians must talk in terms of their own complicity. People need to stop blaming one another, and accept some responsibility.

Without that, nobody can move on.

I still believe that Israel, along with the more stable countries in the region have the capacity to pursue a diplomatic solution. But first Israel must stop killing and start negotiating.

To which somebody will respond, "How does one negotiate with someone that will only be happy with your anihilation?" This is a giant straw man. Israel has the best defence force in the region, and has the support of the US. If Iran and Syria acted on what some in Israel suggest is their stated aim, the international community would act in support of Israel.

The idea of an Arab design on Israel's anihilation is a furphy, and it's another supporting argument which has been used by generations of Israelis, instead of truly pursuing peace.

I'm not blaming Israel here. In fact, I don't want one side to WIN at the expense of another. But if we want peace, both sides have got to kill the rhetoric, instead of using their rhetoric to support their killing.

Do we actually want peace?

Nahum says: "The victims are the citizens of both Israel and Palestine. Due to the ridiculous amounts of money designated to defence, Israel's government spending is held hostage to its militarism. Schools, universities, hospitals, research, technology are starved to pay for its futile war."

Agreed. The victims are also Lebanese folk, and peoples around the world who suffer because of the expense of "military solutions". Military solutions must be seen for what they are - terrorism. War is terrorism and more civilians die in these conflicts than soldiers. Soldiers often choose war. Innocent civilians usually just want to be left alone.

Boaz your use of the term "Final Solution". This is commonly used to describe the Cambodian Holocaust where millions died and suggests callousness on your part beyond normal sensible behaviour. The real solution is in your Bible, no doubt in one of those parts that doesn't agree with your opinion- or which you will no doubt spin to suit your own daft “policy”.

Boaz: Why don't you quote Ephesians 6:12?

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."


The way to prevent war is for civilians to stop. Stop making bombs, stop joining armies, stop killing other humans, stop racist attitudes, stop, just f*&king stop supporting militarism. Stop supporting hateful right-wing thinkers. Stop supporting terrorism. Stop voting for "petit poulet" leaders, like Howard, who is even too chicken shieet to address the wrongness of Israel's over-zealous behaviour in the Middle East Stop voting for warmongers

Big Mal…

”Iran in particular has repeatedly said that it wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Rest assurred if they win that round, it won't be long before we are in their sights precisely because that is their religious belief.” …Are you for real? Do you really believe Iran is plotting your imminent destruction? Have you stocked up on canned goods?

“In terms of constancy of threat, I rate terrorism Islam and its underlying moronic religious platform a far greater threat to western society…etc”…I see the threat to us from Islam as roughly equivalent to the threat posed to us by your poor spelling and grammar….who’s the moron again?

“I am not brain washed at all, just a realist who has bothered to do my homework,and been involved up close with the Islamic ways.” What…some of your best friends are Moslems? You tried to convert one once? You saw one once at your local shopping centre? (i hope you kept a safe distance because you and I both know that all Moslems are bomb-crazy, bloodthirsty fanatics seeking our immediate destruction and that Islam is a “murderous death cult “)

“What about the role of the idiot madman in Iraq, Ahmadninejad etc …”be honest Bigmal….when you said you’d done your homework that wasn’t really true was it? What country is Ahmadninejad president of again?

To sum up Bigmal…a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and you are one of the most “dangerous” people I’ve laughed at all day. Thanks for the comedy..

People need to stop supporting their own destruction. Media need to stop pretending that a bomb dropped from a fighter jet onto a city is different than one delivered on a person. That is a matter of resource. Both are equally wrong. Stop punishing civilians. Stop listening to the warmongers on either side and create new boundaries in how we treat others. Stop treating others like disposable "collateral" and other societies like pawns on a chess board that can be shifted here then there. Stop disrupting others’ lives. Stop treating others differently than the way you want to be treated.

Leaders need to start setting positive examples. World leaders need to stop treating one as legitimate warfare and the other as terrorism. People need to stop treating one group of terrorists differently from another because they have a better equipped Westernised way of warring.

Yes that is a sweeping statement but that is what is needed - a sweeping out of all the stupid kill-kill solutions of the military-minded and conditioned people. Stop letting the rulers drag us into darkness. Just stop for the humanity's sake.

“Final solution” is the talk of people who don’t understand human relationships and the concept of free choice. It must be imposed and denies self determination it is opposite of democracy. It is fascistic. The solution is a long-term and determined maintenance of a peaceful relationships and solutions. Militaristic thinking and warfare need to be reframed as the stupid wasteful process that it is.

Stop being politically correct and show the warmongers what we think of their nonsense.

Boaz consider the old saying: "another man's hurts are easy to bear" when you play your chess.

And the old argument that we should have "no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" will never be redundant.

We need to aim higher.

Nahum, I accept your intent, being a peaceful conclusion.

How do you get 3 factions of an ideology, hell bent on wiping each other out, because they all believe they are right, to accept peace. You can't be the only one right and have peace with the others. Acceptance of difference is a massive problem for monotheists. No matter how they express their intent, its always the same, I'm right and you must submit, monotheists have no other option. To be otherwise is to deny your illusion is true.

This has been the situation for the last 2000 years, nothings changed, your all in denial. Monotheism uses rhetoric to support killing all the time, its called selective evidence, in support of fiction. An example.

Alan grey wrote “Why is it that guys like Alchemist constantly refer to how belief in God has caused so much death, yet ignore the number of deaths from atheistic societies which are an order of magnitude higher.”

I replied, “Two thousand years of constant cultural genocide and war throughout every place monotheism invades, is surely more significant that 50 years of localised communism, supported by local monotheists.”

Alan then tries to justify his position using vague figures for the last 100 years, representing less than 5% of the duration of monotheistic expression. He selectively dismisses more than 95%. You don't have to be right, I know I'm not, as no one is. The only thing coming to close to being right is change, the true art of perfection. Evolutionary change is the true nature of the universe, not a violent, unchanging, historically repeating delusion.

“Do we actually want peace? “

No, monotheists want control first. History shows us, once monotheism is in control. Peace disappears, as irrational morals are used to suppress the populace, That's not peace but enslavement.

You may be surprised at the number of elite jews in the Nazi hierarchy, note where most Jews ended up.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/zionmyth2.hhtm

Nahum, peace is in not having to be right.

This link may explain the problem, faced by the followers of god.

http://www.swin.edu.au/victims/resources/assessment/personality/psychopathy_checklist.html

RANCITAS

Amen brother :) actually I agree with pretty much all you said in criticism of me.

1/ You mention 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spritual powers"... YES YES YES.. u get it at last :)

2/ Eph 6.12 Reprove the unfruitful works of Darkness..EXACTLY :)

But if "I" had made such biblical references, I would be condemned as a 'bible basher' :)

Here it is:

BLACK Corner
Muslims=>Islam=> Mohammed=> Satan ! (an imposter who masquerades as an angel of light to deceive humankind, and Mohammed was sucked in HOOK LINE and SINKER)

RED Corner
Israelites=> Abraham=> Gods call to nationhood and land=> God Almighty.

The terms of reference for the ME problem are actually more in Romans 13 than the verses you cite.

"The Emperor holds the sword to deter the evildoer"

While I would urge every Israeli to show compassion even on Hezbollah soldiers captured, I cannot urge this on non Christians, which Israelies mostly are. Or..if I urge it, what basis of hope do I have that they will take any notice ? zip.

To me, the FINAL SOLUTION that I've outlined is the most compassionate. It frees up the sides from perennial conflict on each others doorsteps.

I know the 'connotations' of the words of course, and deliberately used them for that reason. I'm hoping people will see the 'fleshing out' of that term in the points I raise.

I have YET to see an alternative real world solution put foward by any other poster. Your contribution was more a 'warm fuzzy' than a real solution mate...

I am only suggesting what has ALREADY "worked" :)
If you feel that following this method is some kind of cultural genocide, look....at the Jews-after 1900 yrs.. and learn :)

Doom,

I am so glad that the 4000 or so incidents of Islamic murder and mayhem over the last few years has been a figment of my imagination.

But tell me oh DOOMer how would you explain that to the people in the Phillipines, Indonesia, India, Russia, USA, UK, Spain etc, all who have suffered greatly at the hands of Islamic extremists.

How would you explain it to the parents of the two little girls in Indonesia who were walking through a plantation on the way to school but had their heads chopped off, just because they were Christian.Go and do your idiot laughing at them and see how you get on.

I am so glad that the Wahhabis are Not funding the expansion of their radical ideology with the huge sums passed to them by the Saudis.

How do you explain the duplicitous behaviour of Malaysia who tell the world how tolerant they are, but on the last 6 months they have bull dozed 4 Hindu temples on the pretext that they had no permission to build, but were over 100 years old. Come on tell us.

I am so glad that because of my mispelling of Ahmadinejad means that his threats about wiping out Israel never really happened. I am so pleased that I have had so much influence.

Oh by the way how many people in Australia, have been or are up on Terrorism charges in Australia so far. Nine isnt it.?

What an ignorant moron you really are.

Bigmal,
you must be on drugs...what are you raving about this time?

"I am so glad that the 4000 or so incidents of Islamic murder and mayhem over the last few years has been a figment of my imagination.
But tell me oh DOOMer how would you explain that to the people in the Phillipines, Indonesia, India, Russia, USA, UK, Spain etc, all who have suffered greatly at the hands of Islamic extremists." -oh Bigmaler, i could no more explain the workings of your paranoid witless imaginings to the citizens of those countries than i could make sense of them myself.

"I am so glad that because of my mispelling of Ahmadinejad means that his threats about wiping out Israel never really happened. I am so pleased that I have had so much influence." -You still have that troublesome "homework" problem dont you Bigmal? read my last post again,in fact read it a few times so that you can digest what i actually wrote.As to your "influence"...who are you trying to kid?

“I am not brain washed at all, just a realist who has bothered to do my homework,and been involved up close with the Islamic ways".-bigmal,there are three misrepresentations contained in this sentence...can you spot them?

Bigmal...you are a bigoted paranoid clown and a blowhard.Your "facts" are obviously as poorly researched and as unrelated to reality as your spoutings are irrational and ill informed.Your last post is nothing but a noisily regurgitated poorly digested red-herring,which says nothing whatsoever of any relevance,but thats your trademark really isnt it?

"Ra'anan Gissin, former prime minister Ariel Sharon's recently sidelined spokesman, had advice Thursday for how Israel should be waging its public relations campaign: "Emphasize Iran, Iran and Iran." Gissin said that over the past three years Israel has gotten the message across that the Iranian nuclear threat was not only an Israeli problem, but something that should concern the whole world. "Let us not forget that Hizb'Allah's first attack was in 1983, against the US Marine barracks that killed 241 people," he said. "Just as we introduced the idea that the Iranian nuclear threat was not just an Israeli problem, so is the Hizb'Allah-Iranian terrorist axis not just an Israeli problem."

Keith,

Why do you continually spout the Hizbollah position that the ‘Shaba’ (Sheba’a) farms have something to do with Lebanon? I invite you to visit this site, it is owned & maintained by the Canadian Lebanese Community:

http://10452lccc.com/

Remember that this community has lost 8 of its members to an IDF airstrike, remember also that Hizbollah, whilst nominally supported by the largest minority in Lebanon, is in no way the representative of the majority of Lebanese, who abhor its actions, policies and ‘sacred’ cause.

I realize that it is difficult for the majority of the anti-israel lobby to understand, but sometimes force is necessary (please examine the article on the site above for the letter from the Lebanese Army Officer). The current situation is extremely intricate, and the anti-Israel brigade appears to espouse the writings of anybody who resists Israel, at the expense of the other sides to the conflict. If you wish to preach fairness, please demonstrate your open mindedness by reading the articles on this site.

I do not see why Hizbollah should be saved, in order to cause further harm to the majority of peaceful Lebanese, simply because they picked a fight with Israel. The people on this website, including professor’s, activists, political lobbyists, are not unthinking tools of Israel, but they are vehemently opposed to Hizbollah, why is their voice not being heard?

They do not wish for a ceasefire to save Hizbollah, so why do you?

In particular see what some of these commentator’s say about the position you so carefully espouse regarding the farms. However, I do not judge your position, but please read there commentary on the current situation carefully, and make a reasoned decision as to where your support would be best directed?

An open mind is all I ask, that and a reasoned debate, without resort to preconceived notions of right and wrong.

Inshallah

2bob

Bigmal,

Because of paranoia from people like you all governments in Aust. have made counter-terrorism an absolute top priority with no-funding spared. However, even with their draconian powers and wealth of resources those nine arrests have all been people brought in on trumped up charges, the prosecutions evidence has been consistently weak, and after an initial media circus, charges have been downgraded and juries have acquitted most. The conviction of the melbourne man was based on weak evidence and he was not convicted of any violent crime, only of intent, and most involved could see there was no way he had the resources to carry out what he supposedley intended to do.

Wake up Bigmal, please try and see the truth, your govt. wants you to fear these people but THEIR IS NO SERIOUS THREAT OF TERRORISM IN AUSTRALIA, your energy is better spent worrying about something else, global warming perhaps, and don't give me any bulls**t about Bali because that was Indonesia, not Australia.

Carl,

Today Australian Sat 22nd has an extensive editorial,Entitled "Foes Must accept the Jewish State" and subtitled:

"Israel's opportunistic enemies deny peace to an entire region".

Not much in it which one would disgree with. If that still makes me a paranoid bigot, then I am in good company.

BTW I dont believe that I have said that Islamic terrorism its own, and in Australia, is the biggest issue, but the antics of Islamicists in general is the problem, an example of which is terrorism. That is not disimilar to the editorial.

The other point I thought I was making was that at least people are now starting to calling it what it is, and labelling it as being Islamic in origin.

I left unsaid the obvious statement that Muslims are not a homogenous group and like Christians do take many forms, but I do say that their belief system does have homegenity, and many common ideological matters.

I also dont believe that, in Australia, terrorism per se is a major issue, and may not be, as along as the Federal govt maintains its approach. The issue about the number of court cases was a part response to another blog post. I thought I was making a case for the general problem with Islam, based upon its near global propensity for violence.

PS You also might find the piece by David Selbourne on Page 20 interesting. It is subtitled " The Islamists are Winning ".The reasons why, are not incompatible with some of your own points.

2bob

Why do you spout the israeli propaganda re Shaba Faems?

Mate face it; the Israeli's for their own reasons are the aggressors in Lebanon. They started the current conflict in Lebanon for their own reasons. They have a snowballs chance in their own hell of destroying Palecstinian resistance whatever group they are now or in future. And they know that. History shows that. So while the Israelis know that, why are they really attacking and now proposing to re-invade Lebanon.

ANSWER: Land grabbing.

keith,
Stop wild guesing what are Isreal's motives. You are merely stating propaganda - your opinion. Does Israel have a right to exist, and protect its citizens from attack?

Bigmal,

I fundamentally disagree that the problem of terrorism is Islamic in origin. I believe that generally, religion is a weapon, or an accelerant for war, the origins of wars, including this one, is history.

The origins of this war stem from the dispossession of the Palestinian people, western economic and military support for despotic regimes, e.g Egypt and Saudi Arabia and general Western meddling in the region. Western meddling is of course driven by a dependency on Middle Eastern oil.

Your choice of reading material is not at all surprising. No, I haven’t read it, and I don’t really plan to. For me, reading anything published by Rupert and his lackeys is as good as a White House media release. They are just as, if not more complicit in manufacturing the ‘global threat of terrorism’ as are Howard, Bush and the rest of them. Or perhaps you are unaware that Fox News in the US is nothing more than a Republican propaganda channel, whose CEO was in fact a communications strategist for Nixon and Reagan. Or that every single editor of Rupert’s Newspapers, (I think there are nearly 80 of them) supported the war in Iraq, despite the fact the majority of world opinion did not

Carl Carl...... you said:

"The origins of this problem"...... are..... "Dispossession of the Palestinian People".....

You also said.... "The origin of terrorism is HISTORY"....

You might take a moment to respond to 'which' point in history are you referring to ?

You clearly have 1948 in mind re Israel... WHY don't you have AD 70 and 135 in mind when the ROMANS exiled them from their land and destroyed both their temple and Jerusalem ?

1948 was simply a just historic response to a previously unjust act in AD70/135 Why not look up Josephus on those events ?

If it were not for THAT exile and disposession, there would not be millions of Jews dispersed around the world experiencing persecution from the rest of us....

So, if you want to blame someone, please blame the correct source. i.e. Rome/Italy

I find it fascinating also, that you fail to identify the various invasions of the Eqyptian Marmeluks and Ottoman Turks as 'disposessions'... yep..increasingly suspect is your position.

You choice of historical starting point is very dodgy, and demonstrative of an unfair and possibly malevolant anti semitic bias.
You view seems to be:

1/ Jews exiled from Israel..."who cares it was long ago".
2/ Jews (previously exiled) persecuted, slaughtered en masse in Germany.. "who cares -they don't matter"
3/ Jews re-claiming their traditional land using the SAME METHODS AS produced every other border in the world including YOURS.... "they are evil."

DID GOD GIVE THEM the land ? or not. If you say "not" then, you are still faced with the dual problem of the evil in the nations dispossessed..cult prostitution and child sacrifice was rife, etc.
and whether you support such evil or a community based on the Law of Moses.

So... denying Israels historical claim to the land means

Supporting barbaric child killers or..denying the Word of God or both and/or denying the bigger historical picture. In each case your position is in bigggg trouble, coming across as increasingly irrational with each post.

Ah Alchemist. You continue to mislead. Have you bothered to provide any actual numbers or evidence of that 'Two thousand years of constant cultural genocide and war throughout every place monotheism invades, is surely more significant that 50 years of localised communism, supported by local monotheists'

The answer of course is no. You have said nothing. In addition you make the dubious assertion that local monotheists supported the communists as if this somehow makes them responsible for the atheist death toll.

In addition, you ignore the fact that when atheists did have power, they caused death at a rate that was worse than any monotheistic culture. So when you try and say that we need to get rid of monotheism, this ignorance is, well, moronic or dishonest. Considering your pattern of discourse, I'd say the later is more likely.

You said 'You don't have to be right, I know I'm not, as no one is. The only thing coming to close to being right is change, the true art of perfection. Evolutionary change is the true nature of the universe, not a violent, unchanging, historically repeating delusion.'
Is that right? Obviously your statement is self-refuting nonsense. If you aren't right, why should I or anyone else bother to listen to you or change our ideas based on what you say?

No. You think you are right, you are just being intellectually dishonest. Otherwise, why do you argue with others? You obviously think you are right in thinking they are wrong to think they are right.

David,

I do suspect that most people on this forum would agree that your posts are more irrational than anyone else’s, but I’m not here to trade petty insults with you.

You accuse me of malevolent anti-Semitism, pretty rich coming from an overtly racist person like you Boaz, but I am not anti-Semitic, I think all you religious wacko’s are as counter productive to human progress as each other, I don’t think this of religion in general, just of fundamentalists like yourself.

I am not going to get in a debate about the history of Judaism and Islam with you David, I have never claimed to be an expert on Middle Eastern history. I was merely making the point to Bigmal that I do not believe terrorism is ‘Islamic in origin’. Their Religious beliefs may motivate them, but they are not responsible for them. Are you to argue that terrorism in Ireland is ‘Catholic in Origin?, of course not, I don’t recall Jesus telling people to put bombs in London bins, its about land and power and self-determination.

For the record I do believe that the Israelis have a right to their own State, but while Israel has become a well developed nation, its neighbours have not, and this is due in part because Western nations have supported despotic regimes during the post-colonial period.

Finally David, I think you will find the Israeli army has killed many children in this conflict also, as well as leaving 800,000 people homeless in 14 days, disgraceful figures regardless of history

Well Boaz, it kind of surprised me, but by and large I agree with you.
Labelling your enemies terrorists is basically the same exercise that has been conducted throughout history.
It used to be that the enemies were heathens. Then they were nazis, then communists, now terrorists.

Never people. It's easier to shoot terrorists.

That being said, terrorists attack civilian targets. Women and children. Reprehensible in any language.

The problem is, we haven't defined terrorism. And the western governments are killing far more civilians through their bombing campaigns.

They may target the military, but the fact is, civilians are dying. If you're going to define terrorism, you need to throw intent out the window. There's too much perspective there, and too much potential for abuse. We're seeing this in guantanamo now.

Problem there, is if killing civilians is terrorism, then the US is a chief perpetrator, so that's not going to happen.

Boaz, your repatriation idea is reasonable, but ignores the religous element. The palestinians don't necessarily want to be moved.

Israel is the holy land for pretty much all the big world religions. (Okay, not hindus, buddhists or shinto, but hey, they're not the ones making problems now are they?).

Christians, Muslims and Jews represent the three most aggressive world religions. I know many of you won't want to hear that, but it's true. Yeah, of course, they all have their moderate majority. But again, they ain't the ones making problems.

As long as these groups are willing to sacrifice everything for Israel, they're going to argue over it.

Though repatriation may at least be the better option, but not without more concessions from the Israelis.

Dear Carl
I totally agree that "Terrorism is not Islamic in origin".
But I was hasten to add, that "most" world conflicts today have Islam somewhere in the mix. Feel free to disagree.

TERRORISM- The term is (as I've mentioned in other places) a politically loaded word of convenience for the Bush/Blair coalition, and is a pseudonym for "Islamists/Jihadists". They don't use the real term for domestic political reasons.

Most of what you said is quite true in that last post. Its all about resources/land etc..no argument there.

Regarding a debate with me on history, well you have access to the same sources I do, and it's quite a worthwhile study. I would be quite happy if my major points were challenged :)

IRA violence was purely historical. When Cromwell invaded Ireland (under English rule at that time) he was an unwitting participant with the Machievellians in the historical process, in the sense that he did not realize how cruel the vested English interests could be, in that they took control of pretty much ALL Irish land (Anglican protestants) making the Irish serfs on their own territory. Speaking from a Scottish/English brackground, I have to come down on the Irish side in all that.

I appreciate your posts even though I don't think some of the things you say stand up to historical scrutiny, an ongoing debate :)

Me irrational ? :) no way.. 'harsh, brutal, ruthless' yes x3 but all in the cause of a greater good. Not irrational though. Irrational is 2+2=5

My theories have been well tested in life and I refer to empires who have the runs on the board to back me up.

My references to issues of faith are not at all irrational. I base my views on the resurrection of Christ, an event for which there is ample evidence. But as with all contentious things, one mans good evidence is another's 'irrationality' :)

BOAZ You don't agree with anything Rancitas’ said and you know it. Just one of your tactics.

You dishonestly misrepresented the passage I used from the Bible. All you’ve done is draw out the hypocrisy of a Bible basher, like you Boaz, by supporting attacks on civilians, including Australians, and the infrastructure of Lebanon.

The passage I presented read.:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (from King James version)

I remind you that in the context of my post there is no way one could think Rancitas agreed with Boaz position. It is your spin.

Boaz misrepresentation of a Biblical passage to further his own view follows:.

"1/ You mention 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spritual powers"... YES YES YES.. u get it at last :)

My reading was very different to Boaz.’s.

Boaz you left out half the passage. It clearly states what Christians must rile against: “…against PRINCIPALIITIES, against POWERS, against RULERS OF DARKNESS, against spiritual WICKEDNESS”? Now Boaz you left all this out. There was no ellipsis inside your quote to indicate an omission from the passage. Moreover, you have left so much out that it changed the meaning of the passage. That was blatantly dishonest. And to boot, it was perfectly clear from my post that I regard the powers, principalities, rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness to be the main enemy – NOT this “corner’ or that “corner”. We must stop thinking this way. I am more concerned with the innocent victims, with justice than the positions of warmongers.

Put simply and in the context of Rancitas’ post one could see that Ranc was saying that supposed Christians, like Boaz, who condone Israel’s violence against the “flesh and blood”, which means people like the ordinary people of Lebanon who Israel is attackng, are hypocrites because using that passage as a guide in relation to Israel’s attack on a democratic state like Lebanon one could come to only one honest conclusion., in my opinion, and that is that an honest Christian country that Australia claims to be can only condemn the” rulers of darkness” who bomb the Christ out of civilians or “flesh and blood”. The Bible is telling us not to kill women, children, non-combatants but look to the rulers and powers who perpetrate all the killing for solutions.

2/ Eph 6.12 Reprove the unfruitful works of Darkness..EXACTLY :)

It is very clear that for Rancitas and anyone with heart that war and preparing for war is darkness. It is terrorism. Apparently for Boaz it is light. That human life of innocent folk is more important than Israel’s quest to get Hizbollah, more important than anything, the value of all life is something that must be engendered into the psychology of people and we must make world rulers bend to our “warm and fuzzy” ways. How? people need to stop participating. Just stop. Yes it is warm and fuzzy and killing, and big-cool-looking-fighter jets, and uniforms are so hardcore and macho to the warmongers. Your attitude Boaz is part of the problem.

Boaz complains:

But if "I" had made such biblical references, I would be condemned as a 'bible basher' :)"
You are seen as a bona-fide Bible basher partly because of your hypocrisy. You are always attacking other religion with your version of the Bible. Your manipulation of the text is far removed from the true message. The Bible cannot be used to condone warfare; unless you are prepared to admit that it is no different to the other texts that you are always misrepresenting.

David,

You are firm in your convictions, I’ll give you that. I appreciate your posts also, even though your views on religion represent most of what I stand against, but that’s why I like this forum, because preaching to the converted is just not fun (i.e Michael Moore).

My challenge to you David is, if you are into rationality and scrutiny, I think you should take a hard look at the most defining event of our age, 9/11. I think you should look very closely at the official story, and ask yourself, will this story stand up to historical scrutiny?

Will the 911 commission stand up to historical scrutiny David? When considering it took over a year to establish, it was stacked with Republicans, it didn't interview the President or the VP in public, and it completely ignored some very strange occurrences, such as WTC7 being professionally demolished seven hours later, even though any engineer will tell you that professional demolitions take months to plan.

This issue isn’t going away, I mention it now because I have noticed it is becoming a very big issue in the US, and I think we should all start thinking about what the implications may be if it really hits the fan. So use that rational brain of yours David and do a bit of research, I have, and I didn’t really like what I found. (Just stay away from any websites that mention the ‘Illuminati’, those guys are wack jobs).

turnright turnleft

The Nazis were the enermy and the world didnt act to stop Hitler.

There is a connection still between them and the eztream arabs.

You should know most even moderate muslims actually really beleive they are on higher ground.

There aim is as it always was and that is to wipe out the western world.

Blind freddy can see that the way the UN sat back and did nothing they have spead like a disease through the world taking over.

Did anybody see the guy who wrote that burkas in Australia was just another form of Ausies.
Bull
Our women do not cover their faces for men.

Howard had better act NOW to Ban burkas along with a few more laws.

Plenty of people want to come here lets take some others.[or none]
We have no water

Alan, I believe the observable world evidence supports the effect monotheism has on indigenous cultures. Name one culture, surviving monotheistic invasion of their lands, in the past or currently.

I'm not saying Jews were responsible for communist deaths, just they're accountable as well, for their complicity. As are the catholic's and orthodoxies with the nazi.

We're never right, change is always upon us. We may get to where we understand and can make informed judgements on available evidence, but never can we be right, just learning.

“Is that right? Obviously your statement is self-refuting nonsense. If you aren't right, why should I or anyone else bother to listen to you or change our ideas based on what you say? “

A typical psychopathic statement, demanding that you must be right to have an opinion and any value. What you fail to be able to see, is if your right, there's no other options, so you fail to learn or see difference and change.

So you become more psychopathic trying to force your being right onto others, resulting in despotic expression. Monotheism, which according to you lot, is always right is a classical exhibition of despotic psychopathy. Sensible people exchange views, learning from others as they go.

“No. You think you are right, you are just being intellectually dishonest. Otherwise, why do you argue with others? You obviously think you are right in thinking they are wrong to think they are right.”

This shows how paranoid you are in your desperation to be right, I put forward opinions, to learn and test peoples veracity as they do mine. With the followers of god, its great fun because they have nothing to base their righteousness on, except psychopathic delusional outbursts. As true psychopaths, you all deny your history even when its repeating itself in front of your face in the ME, excellent rational. Who needs any more evidence other than your example.

@Carl
Hi mate..yep..I’ve looked at the 9/11 stuff, and have no real problems with the accepted version of what happened. But, if there was enough evidence to show to the contrary, trust me, it would stick. My old mates the Illuminati ? :) aaah yes...Adam Weishaupt, Rothschilds and company.. been there, read about that, like most things, a bit of truth and a lot of speculation.

@RANCITAS.

We are actually on the same_wavelength, but the tuner is just a tad off frequency and we are getting interference :) you know..that donald duck sound.

We (referring to Christians) should expose the works of darkness..yes. A righteous war can have ‘dark’ moments (e.g. Rape and murder of Iraqi woman and children by Marines) so yes, we DO condemn that.

When it says ‘we’ fight not against....etc it means that in the spiritual realm there are combatants, and behind many earlthy figures -powers of darkness influence them. I feel many of the Mullahs like Masrallah and Khomeini are driven by demonic influences. (Just look at Khomeini’s face and his writings) So, I rant against them, exposing their darkness of seeking to destroy Israel.
Ranc, u must distinguish between 'Christian' action and Secular. War is secular.

Israel is driven by the desire to survive. and are now doing what needs to be done to avoid a much BIGGER crisis in future. Do you doubt this ?

All war is darkness ? Lets test that.

Romans 13

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

Now clearly, it is a judgment call as to who is doing ‘wrong’ and who is doing ‘right’.

PS did anyone notice that the Muslim Speaker of Lebanons Parliament ‘wiped’ his hand after shaking the hand of Condy Rice ? that ‘black’ person. Disgustingly racist.

Wendy:

You say the world didn't act to stop hitler - I'd argue they did, though it was much too late, and it was more due to concern over their expansion than it was the holocaust.

I'd agree that far too many countries were complacent in the case of the holocaust - Many polish for instance, enthusiastically participated.

I still don't quite see your connection between them and the extreme arabs - in my previous post I said that the terrorist label was a useful way of dehumanising the enemy, and that this was a necessary exercise in any war in order to induce your soldiers to fight... is this the connection you're highlighting? Or is it that Nazis and moderate muslims both want to wipe out the western world?

That's not quite right... the nazis didn't want to destroy the western way of life, in fact their aryan dystopia was a product of exaggerated western ideals.

Muslim extremists do want to get rid of the jews, and I'd argue a large proportion of muslim moderates aren't fond of them either, but that's largely due to a long standing conflict.

I would strongly disagree that most muslim moderates want to wipe out western society. Go and talk to some. They're not going to bite.

And as for 'howard better ban the burka...'... No.

Nope, sorry. Banning it is exactly the same as forcing people to wear it. Both are wrong. May as well ban rosaries while you're at it.

Boaz you don’t get it. For Rancitas, the preparation for war and warmongering talk only leads to war/terrorism which is “Darkness”. The “flesh and blood” of this world are infinitely more important than the goals of rulers, the pettiness of bellicose spindoctors or the idiocy of war.

In the latest events in Israel the attacks are on Lebanese homes and civilians to get at Hezbollah. Complete disregard for the “flesh and blood”. This is terrorism which has already led to darkness for those involved. More non-combatants are being killed than soldiers and that is because the rulers of Israel are using force and methods that are just plain cruel and inhumane. It is terrorism.

Boaz it is not valid, nor fair, to compare WW11 with the current situation in Lebanon. The current bombing is in response to Hezbollah taking two Israel soldiers prisoner – much like the USA has imprisoned David Hicks.

Nazi Germany were in the process of murdering six million Jews, unionists, communists, dissidents, homosexuals etc - not to mention blatantly invading most of Europe. Germany expanded its borders because Hitler believed that the Aryan Germans had a right to space that outweighed the rights of others currently occupying that territory (sound familiar). Hence the French resistance could be compared to Hezbollah – if, BD, you insist on your comparison.

BD. Britain handed over land that it had annexed from Palestine to Israel. Soon after settlement Israel started expanding its borders. Every decade since then there has been a war.

Once Israel had established itself it encouraged the repatriation of millions of Jews from around the world - a lot came from the USA. USA citizens have dual citizenship. This influx of people and money from outside Israel puts pressure on Israel to keep expanding its territory. Thus Israel has dishonoured the original intent of the handover of Arab land. Israel’s expansionism is also based on a three-thousand year –old text where God supposedly outlined the “chosen people’s” land.

So, Boaz, in a sense Israel’s resettlement is opposite to your callously-named “final-solution” proposal.

Jewish people have, understandably, over-reacted to the holocaust. In a strange irony they have taken up the attitudes of their oppressors. – a kind of Stockholm syndrome response.

One criticism of Jews was that they let the holocaust happen to them. Their response was very passive. This is because there was no government, no authority, no army to turn to as they were a people without a home - state.

The unimaginable cruelty they endured left a vacuum in their hearts and a conviction “never again”.

So with nationhood, a central government, and annexed land granted to them mostly because of their war experience, Israel now has 168,000 troop, 408,000 reservist, 3630 tasks, 470 warplanes, 15 warships, three submarines, 200 nuclear warheads and Patriot missiles. And of course, with its old -money power and influence it has a lot of influence over the US corporations and government.

But it has forgotten how to empathise with others. The vacuum in their hearts has been filled with the same attitudes and behaviours of the Nazi’s that nearly destroyed the Jewish people in the first place and dragged Germany into darkness.

Israel knows it is using terrorism. It is a method given “legitimacy “by the USA when it invaded Iraq on a flawed pretext. This invasion undermined the authority of national sovereignty. It turned the idea of “fighting in defence only” to that of “pre-emptive strike as defence” which in turn has led to Israel’s callous bombing of infrastructure, homes and people as “defence.” This is ends-justifies- the -means thinking undermines the authority of your and Judaism's Biblical Law and, from this pagan’s corner, ultimately undermines the immeasurable value of “flesh and blood”. This is wrong and must stop.

I agree wholeheartedly rancitas, and yes, it needs to stop. But how?

Heading back to the topic of the article, Ayliffe requests practical solutions.

Whilst I tend to disagree with Boaz's extreme arguments, he has put forward a solution of sorts. It may not be ideal, it may not even be practical, but it is something.

We need to face up to two important facts.

1. Neither the arabs nor the jews are just going to capitulate and extend an olive branch on any kind of permanent basis.

2. As long as these peoples are living together in an area so religously charged, there is going to be violence.

There is no pleasant solution to this. Both sides gave up any real claim to the moral high ground many years ago.

I would argue they both now need to be treated on an equal footing. Doesn't matter who bombed who. The fact is, both sides have. You can point to as many nasty deeds by either side as you want, but it won't change things.

The establishment of the jewish state was a mistake, caused by guilt from the holocaust.
The jews needed a country, but that was not the place to put them. They may have wanted it for religious reasons, but religious reasons were also going to feed conflict.

I don't have a solution, and while I may not necessarily agree Boaz's is ideal, I'm not seeing anyone else actually suggest some.

I love the irony - all this talk about Nazis.
In reality, who funded Hitler’s rise to power?
The IG Farben Company.
Who loaned money to IG Farben to make the financing of Hitler possible?
Primarily, the JP Morgan Group.
Who was behind JP Morgan?
A Jewish gentleman named Rothschild.
What else did JP Morgan have interests in?
The Bendix Corporation and Opel.
Who gave secret avionic intelligence to the Nazis?
The Bendix Corporation.
Who manufactured German tanks?
Opel.
Who else maintained financial interests with the Nazis throughout the War?
Another Jew named Rockefeller.
The West continued to channel money to the Nazis during the war and made sure it’s own industrial interests did not suffer much damage during bombing raids in Germany.
Westerners remained on the board of IG Farben but walked away without charge after the War.

What country changed its name to appease the Nazis in the hope they would free them from Western financial oppression and exploitation?
Persia - it became Iran (Aryan).
And on an on it goes.

Much of this dispute is also a facade. Nobody mentions Israel’s critical water situation and the important part that the Gaza area plays in it as well as the effect it has on the Palestinians. The Israelis will soon be pumping much of their water from Turkey if this incident doesn’t pay off the way they expect.

Watch what the magician is doing with his other hand from time-to-time.

TURNRIGHT....
I appreciate your 'almost' support :) at least for the fundamental principle of them not being able to live together for a multitude of reasons.
I believe my approach (which does not involve genocide) is the most compassionate one. The only thing standing between peaceful re-location and compensation of Palestinians to other lands is PRIDE.

@RANCITAS
In regard to the "Israel is attacking 'civilian' targets to get at Hezbollah"
I have YET to see an 'innocent civilian' interviewed on TV who said "Hezbollah is bad, we don't want them, they don't represent us"
On the contrary, I have seen even 'innocent' children pulling out the 'Hezbollah' flags from their stuff while in transit to Syria.
I'm very sorry but.... Hezbollah IS the population and as long as they support the build up of OFFENSIVE long range missiles, with increasingly lethal war heads, including the STRONG possibility of Chemical/biological (from Iraq or Iran via Syria) and as long as Hezbollah maintains 'Islamic Caliphate' in the whole area, meaning the destruction of Israel, then, I'm afraid 'innocence' is not something I would ascribe to the population as a whole (shia/hezbollah)

@ RACHE
well done ! :) you are explaining to us the way the world works. You are describing human nature. You are giving us the keys to pretty much every war and conflict since Cain whacked Abel.
Have a read of Lebanon's history, and see who supported who, (outside countries) and what happened as a result, and if you can find a 'good guy' in all of that, I'll send you a cheque for a million :) (If I had it)

Yet we, from the security of our stolen aboriginal land (The family 1km from me is just 3 generations removed from their great grandparents who were the first to move in and settle..... aboriginals ? where ? Fitzroy I think)
From our wealth and abundance which is also based on that of the British Empire, which is based on the profits of the Opium trade and the exploitation of India and its labor force etc etc etc........

Further to my earlier comment about truth during (and after War),here's another slant on the kidnapped Israeli soldiers, who did what to whom and where it actually happened.

http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/editorials/signs20060724_TheHistoryOfWarIsTheHistoryOfLies.php

For all you conspiratists out there, prior to the 911 attack there were only 7 nations in the world that did not have a Rothschild controlled Central Bank.

Less than a month after Afghanistan was invaded, there were only 6.

After Iraq was invaded, the number suddenly reduced to 5.

The only ones left now are Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Cuba and Libya.

I haven't even mentioned the significant links to "Big Oil".

Now tell me all this is only about making the world a better place by the spread of democracy through the Middle East, considering Lebanon and Palestine both have democratically elected Governments.

Hitler and Goebbles were right when they said people will believe a big lie more easily than several small lies.

Heh Alchemist...your funny in an irrational kind of way

'Alan, I believe the observable world evidence supports the effect monotheism has on indigenous cultures. Name one culture, surviving monotheistic invasion of their lands, in the past or currently."
India.

Next please.

Oh, and it certainly sounds like you think you are right.

And if we are never right, then how can we ever be learning, because learning involves moving from a wrong belief to a right belief.

psychopathic? lol. I'm forcing my being right onto others? Is that right? Are you trying to force that on me? Please Alchemist, you can't even hold a conversation without showing refuting your own position.

The only real denial going on here is your own. You continue to spout irrational nonsense where you pretend that no one is right, except for you apparently.

TurnRightThenLeft you say: "Whilst I tend to disagree with Boaz's extreme arguments, he has put forward a solution of sorts. It may not be ideal, it may not even be practical, but it is something."
TRTL, Boaz's solution is more of the same. Anyone can post a solution. Moreover, his support, not only for Israel but for their unnecessary and inhumane bombing of Lebanon, pretty well discredits his "final solution". His solution is clearly tainted by his ideological position and religious conviction. He has displayed an inability to step back and look at the situation (defamiliarisation) without his ideological and religiosity impeding his view. For instance: BD suggests the Arabs need to be moved on not the Israelis. Bias to be sure.

Just briefly on this point. In 1870 the nation states of Europe embarked on an arms race of sorts. This ultimately led to two world wars. Secular ideologies have proven to be just as murderous as religious bigotry. The Nazi Holocaust and the Soviet Gulag are a direct result of this militaristic thinking. These two wars have not stopped war. The warmongering has to stop or it will happen again.

Now, why stop. Well. Thought precedes action. If we use the old psychologist’s method of just thinking "no more"; and just stop going along with the idea that might is right; that war is an acceptable form of conflict resolution; get back in touch with our humanity, then it is a least a start towards a more sensible global society. War only begets more war.

The way it is now, if people disagree, they work towards destroying you rather than a solution. I am not a naive airy-fairy S.N.A.G., I am well aware of the exigencies of dealing with mentally-wounded and bloody-minded people

TurnRightThenLeft: I didn't present a “solution” because it would be arrogant of me to assume that such a difficult task can be handled in a blogspot. I would like to see what a foreign policy expert has to say. The Camp David Accords haven't worked so Rancitas in blogspot commentary would be of little use.
Nevertheless, I'd hardly call bombing the bejesus out of a nation "practical" or stirring up more conflict with plans like Boaz’s. So I am, indeed, suggesting precisely that we do take a more practical, albiet, seemingly in a militaristic- conditioned mindset, an impractical approach. Instead of relying on rulers - the people need to stop participating in warfare. Who is designing and supplying, for instance, all this weaponry. The consciousness of people, especially, Middle Eastern folk needs to be reshaped. You won't do that by condoning this kind of violence the way Bush and Howard have been.
You see I think the problem with the world in relation to situations like this is that a mass psychology has developed that is dangerous because it has lost contact with the basic principles of humanity
Boaz every time you look at a stop sign think of Rancitas. Also just imagine he has stencilled in war under STOP. STOP war. Under your extreme militaristic thinking where a school girl who has been traumatised by Israeli bombing raids losing her cool is an excuse for mass slaughter - I guess you would be looking at bombing my neighbourhood. Or is just Third-World Muslims that attract the rathe of God (and His fighter jets).



You see I think the problem with the world in relation to situations like this is that a mass psychology has developed that is dangerous because it has lost contact with the basic principles of humanity. Warfare as a means to end is a plain stupid process.

Alan Grey, you right, monotheists are always right, so I shall except the historical evidence of you being right. Your more intelligent than most, so I bow to your superior understanding of life and what it entails.

I hope the joy, peace and satisfaction your currently getting out of your life, is enhanced ten fold, you deserve it in your god inspired knowledge and righteousness dedication.

I know you don't need to provide evidence for your god inspired view of the world, your right, gods always right. We see throughout the world, how righteous your god is in its expression. How well it takes care of its flock, how uplifting its bombardments of innocents is in the name of being right.

Yes Alan your very moral, upstanding full of compassion, filled with the love of god and expressing it in caring understanding. Your knowledge knows no bounds as it come forth in ever increasing intensity from the heart of you lord and master.

Your right, I'm irrational to feel for those being killed by your god, one should rejoice in the spreading of gods word by its loyal subjects, in the method we are all accustomed to. True we can only learn if we're right, as you don't have to look at anything else, no need, your right, everything else is irrelevant.

So enjoy being right and I shall enjoy learning how wrong I am, from the followers of gods superior intelligence, that's guiding them on their peaceful, moral journey in life as they gently educate others in their righteous ways. Yes compassion at the end of a gun, is so righteous and moral. May god heap it's most expressed blessings on your soul, to satisfy your deep desire, to reside by its side.

Lol Alchemist. Once again more rhetoric, no evidence. In fact, in response to hard numbers you have provided none of your own.

If you want to misrepresent my position in your sarcastic post that is fine, but just realise that you are not fooling anyone with your dishonesty.

Have a nice day. I'm praying for you.