'The simplest thing really is to release the soldier, stop the rocket fire and then things will return to normal' Justice Minister Haim Ramon, a confidant of Olmert, told Israel Radio.

Who'd've thought it?

Tell you what, whoever (amongst the Palestinian leadership (oxymoronic I know)) thought of this current fiasco should be shot (appears rather likely). The UN is trotting out its standard response, 'the evil occupying power should stop'?!! UN must realise semi-autonomous regions are no longer occupied (Well, they may be at the moment - you know what I mean). Therefore, without being an occupying power Israel is not restrained by International Law norms when dealing with cross-border attacks & artillery/rocket strikes. Proportionality is rather irrelevant in war.

How come if I saw this as the only possible outcome of Palestinian self determination that they did not? terrorists are a protected species in an occupied area, however, once no longer occupied they are legitimate targets, whether they are armed or not. The rules of armed conflict provide much greater protection to invading forces than they do to occupiers!

Inshallah

2 bob

Talk about as silly as a 2 bob watch. If the soldier were released & the rocket fire stopped "then things will be returned to normal." What's "normal" for Gaza? Total siege. No access to sea or air. Crossings under Israeli control and closed most of the time. Economic siege. Israel to decide IF workers get paid, IF people eat, get medicines etc. Periodic air strikes killing fighters & civilians alike to provoke a response which can be used to justify the fake mantra of no peace partner whenever it's required. No, the occupation of Gaza never ended. The Imperial Israeli bully is addicted to beating up the powerless. Truth is, Israel is doing its level best to ensure that no Palestinian government is ever in any shape to stand up to it so that it can go on annexing more and more of the West Bank. Its biggest fear is a strong, principled Palestinian government that it might actually have to sit down and negotiate with. Ah 2 bob watch, you & your fellow cheer leaders must be very proud of yourselves as your ubermenschen pound this little Warsaw Ghetto by the sea to rubble.

strewth,

I agree with your assessment as to the cause of the incessant internicine strife in Gaza, but, I think you oversimplify it way too far when you try to blame it all on Israel. Why should a neighbouring country - which is sooo hated by teh inhabitant's of Gaza, provide them with jobs & livelihoods & be required to allow people that profess to hate Israel into Israel in order to do so?

Perhaps if the money that is spent on luxury vehicles & parisian villas for the leaders was used to build viable industry (even farms) more Palestinians would have steady work. Unfortunately, it does not happen, it suits the leaders to keep everyone pissed at Israel, while they tickle the till. Corruption is endemic, and because of the lack of opportunity, the poor (the majority) will continue to live in a hell hole. Unfortunately, they are then told their life is the fault of the Zionists, heres a bomb - go blow yourself up, or heres a mortar/rocket, go shoot at them.

Israel will only be able to cop so much, as a democracy once the people get pissed off at the incessant shelling / bombing, the government must act. How about people try to understand the cause of the problem, not whinge and moan about the outcomes.

Inshallah

2 bob

Boaz_david, Arafat didn’t ask for anything at Camp David/Taba. He put forward no peace plans, and just said no to everything.

Strewth,

-The limitations here don't allow for in-depth discussion. I encourage people here to join the Jewish Palestinian Encounter (http://www.salam-shalom.net/salam-shalom/salamforum1.html ), a forum of Jews, Palestinians, and others discussing issues of common concern. The site is temporarily down, but should be online soon.

-I am not talking about "shooting collaborators". You mentioned land that Arabs supposedly cannot buy. All land under Palestinian rule cannot be sold to Jews, and this is enforced with summary execution. What do you think about Palestinian Apartheid?

-I agree with much of what Shlomo Ben-Ami says, for example here http://www.mec.utah.edu/Lectures/2004%20lecture%20pages/Lecture%20pdf/Minister%20Shlomo%20Ben.pdf and in his recent book. In this debate http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml Ben-Ami confirms that Arafat turned down an offer of 100% of Gaza and 97% of the West Bank. American negotiator Dennis Ross's book also sheds much light on what happened in the negotiations.

-You could hardly be more wrong in your assumptions about my views. I didn't say Palestine isn't theirs to concede; I said Israel isn't.

-I didn't say Israelis have a right to colonize occupied territories, and like Ben-Ami, I believe that peace cannot result from the two sides exercising what they view as their full rights.

-The land allocated to a Jewish state in the partition plan had a 55% Jewish majority. 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem would vote in Israel, raising the majority to 60%. Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were waiting to immigrate (almost 700,000 arrived by 1951), so Israel would have had a 76% Jewish majority with no "ethnic cleansing" necessary.

-I don't defend crimes against humanity or war crimes, regardless of who perpetrated them. The selective defense of megacrimes based on the nationality of the perpetrator is your thing. And this "infinitely greater" business shows your infinite bias against Israel.

Albion and Sunisle support ethnic cleansing against Israel; Boaz_David wants it for Muslims. Luckily, even the terrible actions of us Palestinians and Israelis have been generally more moderate and peaceful than what some of you seem to prescribe!

2 bob: Blessed are they who have nothing to say and cannot be persuaded to say it.
sganot:
1)I take your failure to challenge Uri Davis' alleged "fabrications" as an indication that you accept his description of Israel as an apartheid state.
2)As to your bizarre concoction, "Palestinian apartheid", why would your Israeli colonist buy Palestinian land in the Occupied Territories when he can just take it in defiance of the 4th Geneva Convention which prohibits colonization by occupying powers? BTW do you reserve the expression "summary execution" for Palestinians & 'targeted assassination' for Israelis?
3)As for Arafat turning down an offer for 100% Gaza/97% West Bank: a)it was not an offer-it was Clinton's 'parameters' & b)both sides had reservations about these & c)it was the Israelis who pulled out of the Taba talks making the business academic from then on.
4)"Israel isn't theirs to concede": why all the bulldust then about the Palestinians recognising Israel's 'right to exist'?
5)By the beard of Herzl, you are confused about the Partition plan: a)the Jewish state had a minority of Jews (499 thousand to 510 thousand Palestinians-UN figures); b)Jerusalem was not to be part of the proposed Jewish state; c)1951? We're talking 47-48 in case you hadn't noticed. And how convenient of you to ignore that in 1951 some 750,000 Palestinian refugees expelled in 48, to enable a Jewish majority, were waiting to return!
6)Until you own up to the simple moral fact that by imposing Jewish sovereignty on the Palestinians without their consent, Israel bears the prime responsibility for the violence that ensued, nothing you say can be taken seriously. As the Mayor of Jerusalem wrote to France's chief rabbi in 1899: "In the name of God, leave Palestine in peace." The Zionist project in Palestine was a GUARENTEE of war. It's now up to the supporters of that project to make amends, not its victims, and your defence of the indefensible makes a mockery of both salam & shalom.

Sganot...
I think I'm finally 'getting' it about the Camp David events.
Your constant reference to 'Arafat asked for nothing etc' is noteworthy. STREWN.. do you have any comment about that ?

I'm just recalling the discussion Dennis Ross had on a TV interview about that time, and he did indeed suggest as you have, but my memory was a bit blurred on this. I assume that if Arafat was going to 'ask' or put forward anything, it would be the removal of Israel.

Sunisle

Your speaking from an idealistic and naive viewpoint (so is Sganot to a degree) in that you believe concepts such as worrying about being seen as 'racist' are going to significantly alter world events of such magnititude as the status of Israel.

Albion....

says it all "No Israel" You cannot negotiate with that, and I hope Sganot gets to the point where he realizes that THAT idea is what is really driving the agenda in Muslim Palestinians.
Suggestion. Fight 100% for it, and either win or lose and shutup.

I have suggested 2 possible solutions to the ME crisis.

1/ Ethno/Religious cleansing of all Muslim Arabs except those who will pledge loyalty and abiding submission to Israel (This is a very 'Islamic' concept u know, except that the "Dhimmi's" in this case are the Muslims) (This would fail at the point of the Temple Mount and new temple being built.)

2/ Muslims and Jews accept Christ as Messiah and embrace each other in Him, thus totally diffusing the situation and bringing in a time of unparalleled peace and prosperity.

The Irish experienced this as genuine Christ loving Protestants and Catholics met in sweet fellowship across the sectarian lines. It IS possible.

Sganot persists with his 'legal/diplomatic' approach and Stewn seeks to tear all he says to shreds, then beat him and others over the head with various verbal tools, which is how it works 'on the ground' over there.

Sganot, please get back in touch with your wonderful rich heritage in the Old Testament. Think about where you came from.

Strewn, find "Struth" :)