Strewth

I was not actually directing my comments to you. It is however not a red herring to bring up the issue of eastern Jews. (They are not by any means mainly Arabs - many arrived in Egypt and the Persion Empire long before the Arabs arrived).

Their presence does pose a problem for those who maintain that Israel was occupied by "Zionist conquest" or who claim that it was purely a solution to a European problem. You must know that they would not be welcome back in their own countries. Some in fact live here in Australia. They were certainly not uprooted by a Zionist campaign but disadvantaged in their own land together with Christians. In Iraq some were actually murdered by the regime.

This certainly illustrates that the problem is not one-sided, the point which I am trying hard to make. Why is it that any arguement is distorted by you by blaming Zionism?

Strewth has little real concern for any refugees, they are merely pieces in a giant chess game he plays in his head.

The worst outcome for him would be for the sensible Israelis & sensible Palestinians to come to agreed settlement and form two independent states.He would support such a solution if he really wanted to end the refugees suffering -but he and many of the Arab states want to keep the pressure cooker boiling to suit their own political ends.

Any one who doesn’t see eye to eye with him is branded a Zionist stooge (his saying so –makes it so).

Don’t waste your time pointing to other refugees & displaced groups, in other regions, now or in the past, it won’t make an iota of difference. If they can’t assist his campaign- he’s not interested.

KEITH

well done ! :)

Ok.. a couple of important points.

My referring you to the Genesis record, was not to derive 'specific commands' but to show the historical origins of the problem.

When I refer to 'historical' events, I should have made myself clearer, apologies. There is a distinction between 'event' such as a war by the Israelites against the Midianites. And clearly specific commands or statements by God "This land will be for you and your descendants forever"

We cannot say 'because Moses kicked Midianite butt, and exterminated them, we can therefore exterminate the Palestinians.'

But when God says 'This is your land....forever' aah.. that is a different story.

Now we come to the confusing part. Sermon on the mount, "Love your enemies" etc.

There is an interesting aspect to the broader teaching on'enemies' where Jesus adds in one place "For by doing so, you heap burning coals on their heads"... meaning of course, that if you treat them with kindness and they STILL attack and harm you, their guilt is more than confirmed.

Jesus would have had in mind a particular Old Testament event when He taught the "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread".
It was when the Arameans were attacking Israel and ran out of supplies. Elijah instructed the Israelites to take bread to them,- in so doing, it diffused the situation, the Arameans went home and peace reigned.....until... younger Arameans decided to come back and wreak more havoc and take territory and slaves.

Keith bear in mind, Jesus also said "If your eye sins, GOUGE IT OUT" :) Perhaps, just perhaps, he was getting a 'point' across in a 'culturally appropriate' manner to the hearers of his day on both issues about enemies and sin eyes ?

You have much to learn young Jedi :) (as do we all)

Red, You wish.
a) Why so coy about my 1st question? You don't like this lot, you don't like that lot, or maybe even your own for all we know. I'm curious as to why Jews get a special dispensation from you. As for me, I defy you to quote ANY racist comment I've allegedly made.
b) "It might": there's progress! Palestinian land was not stolen at "some time in history" but in the post-UN era: 48-49, and is still going on today. Your examples from France to Australia are not cases where the people inhabiting those areas were expelled to make way for an exclusive ethno-religious sovereignty.
c) Pure speciousness. And anyway, wouldn't you be offered compensation at market value?
Your question: Australia, in respect of its indigenous population, is a binational state. Whatever their level of socio-economic disadvantage (and I'm sure you're really concerned with that) they are equal citizens before the law with non-indigenes, none have been expelled to other countries and none are under military occupation. If Israel were a binational state for all its inhabitants (whether Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheists etc, whether returned refugees or currently enfranchised) instead of an ethno-religious ghetto run in the interests of one group, it wouldn't be causing the trouble it now does.
Now, back to Question A.

Strewthy
peeked at that book by Whitless, reminds me of the Nazi ‘re-construction’ of history of the Jews to suit their genocidal agenda.

Partial synopsis:

[... and argues that Biblical scholars, through their traditional view of this area, have contributed to dispossession both of a Palestinian land and a Palestinian past].

COMMENT
Small Problem: Prior to the resurgence of Zionism and the period from WWII to 1948 the Jews as a people were hardly an issue. The idea that Biblical Scholars have ‘invented’ their past to annoy Arabs is a projection BACK from ‘now’ by vested Arab and Islamic interests seeking to re-construct that which is so well documented that it defies the imagination. I won’t bore people with a list of archeological evidence, as the only person seeming to question it is ‘you’ and it won’t matter to you what is presented, you will still find the CIA ran 9/11 :) if you get my drift.
See the works of William F Albright for some insights on History and Archeology.
In my own Church there is an Archeologist of considerable academic clout.

The very suggestion that in the back of the minds of Biblical Scholars of lets say pre WW1 they sought to ‘justify and invent’ a past for Israel is simply ludicrous, not to mention unsupported by indisputable evidence.

The most that can be said, is that there is considerable “debate” about some aspects of Biblical History, coming more from the German Liberal Academics than anywhere else. Yes, the time and nature of the Exodus, the Abraham period are questioned, but a close examination of the debate will show just where such people are coming from and the paucity of their claims.
Funnily enough, the ARABS will tell you that they came from.....guess who ? ISHMAEL :) son of Abraham, the...... ‘invented one’.....’duh’.
If you are gonna push something, puh-lease push something with clout.
* ....wanders off- muttering *

P.S. your last post was at least bordering on the persuasive, but is disconnected from many important factors.
Mention the UN and my eyes just glaze over.

David

You are being very selective in your use of the Old Testament. In one case you say we cannot use God's actions in that source as a guide to ways to behave and in another case you say we must trust some things in that source proported to have been said by God.

Your statements

"We cannot look at what God did then, and say "Ah HAH ! see what God did to the evil Canaanites, clearly these are commands for us to follow...'"

and

"But when God says 'This is your land....forever' aah.. that is a different story."

Since exactly he same source is used in both cases I cannot see how you can use one as an authority and discredit the other. Simply lacks consistancy.

And please can you refer me to the following in Christ's sermon on the Mount. I for the life of me cannot find them in any text of that particular sermon.

'There is an interesting aspect to the broader teaching on'enemies' where Jesus adds in one place "For by doing so, you heap burning coals on their heads".'

and

'Jesus would have had in mind a particular Old Testament event when He taught the "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread".'

Both teachings of course are consistant with the lessons of the Sermon and should confirm to you the Israeli's actions are running counter to your as yet unabandoned and inconsistant awoved desire to 'ethnic cleanse' Gaza and the Holy Lands.

Ahhhhh that sinful eye.

'Mention the UN and my eyes just glaze over...'

Impossible! Since you've not adopted Christ's teaching and show support for exactly the opposite ... well you'd have gouged yours by now... and why wouldn't you? Doesn't Christ demand that? ;-)