illogic: Love thy neighbour. Only problem is, Israel is not the Palestinian's neighbour, but their occupier, oppressor & jailer.

Strewth

One last question. Do you deny that the Palestinians did not try on several occasions to remove all Jews from Israel regardless of how long they had lived there or where they had come from and that Hamas still considers that there stated aim?

Logic

You and David are on the wrong side of this debate. Slowly, very slowly the Palestinians grievencies, since the departure of that criminal arafat, are begining to reach the concsiousness of westerners.

Not five years ago I shared similar views to both you and David. I like both you and David am a sensitive and logical sort of chap. After much reading, listenig and plain old fashioned 'making up my own mind' I've changed my views. There is noting wrong or anything hateful about that. I think strewth would gain much seeing both you and David or either of you, because of the very forceful arguments
presented in this forum, start the process of sdjusting your stances. There would be great respect gained for both of you. No I don't think I'm lecturing either of you, I'm just expressing sentiments I've found suit me in my ways of dealing with very complex issues. I did notice throughout the debate that both you and David have displayed a grudging respect for Strewth and myself even though our current views are diametrically opposed. It's great no real anomisity has arisen on all sides.

REGARDS KEITH

To Mr Strewth.

Your attitude is plainly anti Jewish. But in order to appeal to the deluded pseudo intellectuals in the west who have embraced anti Israel sentiments as a fashionable cause, you need to pretend that you are not racist. OK, that will work just fine on Sneakypeter, Keith and Arjay, but please don’t try it on me.

As to why I support Israel, because Israelis don’t put bombs on my aeroplanes, they don’t blow themselves up on my trains and buses, they don’t blow my people up in Bali, and they don’t attack my allies. I feel more kinship with Jews who are little threat to my people, than I do with Arabs and Muslims who are quite plainly a very serious threat to my people. And on the principle that “the enemy of your enemy is your friend”, then I am 100% for Israel. And if I consider Arabs and Muslims as my people’s enemies, then this is entirely due to their murderous and hostile behaviour by Arabs towards my own people, most of whom could not give a rat’s arse about the Arab Israeli conflict.

As for me being “ignorant” of Arab intention in 1948, well I was around in 1967 when the Arabs made it absolutely clear that they were going to exterminate Israel and get rid of all the Jews. Had the Arab armies succeeded in beating Israel, they would have massacred most of the Jews, and whatever raped survivors remained, they would have made life so miserable for them that all of them would have asked for asylum in other nations. In other words, the Arabs would have done a lot worse to the Jews than what the Jews are doing to the Arabs right now. So don’t try submitting arguments to me based on some sort of humanitarian logic. Because the only beef that the Palestinians have with the Jews, is that the Jews beat them at their own game.

Logic
I understand your point about the_Rabbi. Jesus summarized the Law for the sake of those who were at the top of the 'religious' pecking order yet who used the "Law" as a kind of social sledge hammer and unbearable burden. I mean.. "you cannot eat an egg laid on the sabbath" or-"You cannot walk in sandals which have a metal buckle" (because that is 'work' :).... the thing Jesus attacked was that they put their 'traditions' before Justice and compassion. "You cleanse he outside of the cup, but inside you are ravenous wolves".

Keith,
I tend to be very compassionate on a human and a Christian level toward genuine Palestinians hard done by in the loss of land. I do understand their loss. But.. (there is always the old 'but' eh :)
Looking at the big picture, I see insoluble problems as follows:

1/ The Palestinians have had ample time to rid themselves of the terrorists and that mentality, yet by and large they have not done so.

2/ No matter which way the cake is cut, pls believe me when I say it will ALways ultimately come down to the issue of the Temple Mount and East Jerusalem. You may as well ask the Israelis to castrate themselves as ask them to forgo this aspect of their history and corporate identity.

3/ The Palestinians have made their choice of Hamas, who's charter they are familiar with "No Israel".

4/ Islam.... the religious/theological concept of 'Islamic' lands (as opposed to 'Land') and the 'Al Aksa Mosque' are not taken into account by many in trying to fathom why the fighting continues. Please dig deeper into this.

CONCLUSION. Due to the deep rooted and unsolvable factors listed above, the truly compassionate approach is to remove all Palestinians, and disperse them to Arab/Muslim countries in small groups so they can be absorbed and embrace new and prosperous lifestyles. The international community should assist with land grants and resettlement assistance.

If Indigenous Aussies took up arms, my thoughts would be similar.

Stewn, Israel occupies the land promised to the descendants of Abraham.

“Israel occupies the land promised to the descendants of Abraham.” States the indefatigable Boaz_david, revealing himself as a fundamental Christian Zionist.

Christian Zionists interpret the Bible literally, many work closely with the Israeli government, religious and secular Jewish Zionist organizations.

Christian Zionism has its roots in Jewish apocalyptic thought and generally holds that Jesus will return to earth before he establishes, literally, a millennial kingdom under his sovereignty.

The fulfillment of prophetic signs have become the central task of Christian interpretation. As Boaz , Coach et al regularly espouse.

They support the maximalist claims of Jewish political Zionism, including Israel’s sovereignty over all of historic Palestine, including Jerusalem. The modern state of Israel, as a fulfillment of prophetic scriptures, is regarded as a necessary stage prior to the second coming of Jesus.

They also have a pessimistic view of history and wait in eager anticipation for the unfolding of a series of wars and tragedies pointing to the return of Jesus.

Christian Zionists believe that the 1948 creation of the state of Israel marked the first event in 'Armageddon' and they are committed to making that doomsday clock tick faster, speeding Christ's return.

This interpretation of the N.T. is as dangerous as any Muslim fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. The difference is that Fundy Christians hold more power than the average Muslim nutter and can use more ‘acceptable’ means for gaining dominion.

All this pain and suffering just because of a particular interpretation of an old book.