Yep. Looks like we will have to disagree. I'm unlikely to change your mind, you're unlikely to change mine. It is fair to say that topics like this are generally emotion-driven rather than logic-driven, which is pretty barren turf for mind-changing anyway.

One parting shot for you though Celivia. Do you not see the similarity of your statements:

>>Take cats- there are HUGE problems concerning feral cats. <<

and

>>Huge numbers of healthy cats (dogs too) are being killed since the RSPCA has a kitten overload <<

Both problems, feral and domestic, appear to be "huge".

You and I can do little as individuals to solve the feral problem, but we can take a stand against adding to the problem of domestic pets.

Just in case either you or Scout still think I am being frivolous, or simply being contentious for the sake of it, please understand that I am completely serious. To me, the fact that we consider it blameless to keep pet animals is a permanent blot on the escutcheon of our humanity. One that, I am convinced, will one day be seen to be an aberration.

Hey Pericles

Just a quick note - you HAVE convinced me of one thing - that you are sincere in your beliefs regarding domestic pets. I did think for a while, maybe you were being flippant.

Also, I can understand your feelings. I'm not keen on caged birds and my personal jury is still out on aquariums. However, I love being around animals (which is why I try my best with volunteer work, I wish I could become vegetarian) - I long for the day I can afford to fence my property and share my life with a dog or two. I don't believe for second that my cat feels in anyway enslaved - rather the reverse. So we'll agree to disagree, Pericles - I would still like to know what action you are taking with regard to your POV on animals - I showed you mine....

Regards

Dianne

Ah, Pericles, I believe that we don’t disagree all that much, basically.
The main problem highlighted in the article is that animals are being legally abused, and we agreed that this is true.
We also agreed that we want things for animals to improve.

That’s the most important thing- “to improve conditions for animals”. That’s why I would like to see suggestions explored in a practical way. (An impractical way will do nothing for animals.)

While you are waiting for the rest of us (primitives) to evolve so that pets can, hopefully soon, be saved from slavery, I wonder if you, in the meantime, are willing to discuss or have suggestions to improve life for factory-farm animals.

Because you seem to be genuinely concerned about the suffering of animals, I, like Scout, would like to see your ideas and suggestions.
What do you think that can be done in a practical way to help improving conditions for farm animals without just saying that all people should be vegetarians? What can we do for the animals while waiting for meat eaters and farmers to evolve?

Thanks Scout and Celivia for an interesting exchange.

My solutions – as with many other perceived ills of the world – tend to fall into the realm of restricting or eliminating demand, rather than legislating for or against particular actions or activities.

There are very few historical models of government-managed behaviour that have worked, where the object has been to legislate the supply, rather than the demand. Prohibition in the US is a classic example, where attention to the supply-side created an entire criminal class. Early closing of pubs here had the same destructive power on family life, when it created the six o'clock swill.

Interestingly, the “war” on smoking has been waged on both fronts. On one hand, the constant stream of health warnings designed to lower demand, and on the other an increasing number of no-go zones, where smoking is forbidden. Yet if you were to take a poll on the number of ex-smokers who have quit recently, I believe you will find there is a preponderance of responses in the “I quit for health reasons” category over the “I quit because I couldn't smoke in the building” category.

Which is a long way round to saying that I'm sorry, I don't have a clue how to address issues of conditions for animals-for-food that would have a major impact. From a business point of view, if I were told to run my business a particular (presumably more expensive) way by the government, then I would expect some protection from other suppliers who did not have the same laws. And before you know it, we have a massive economic protection problem, funded by the taxpayer.

So the only real, lasting answer is to educate the public. Unfortunately, there will only ever be a few who will listen, even fewer who will understand, and a tiny proportion who will do anything about it.

And I hate to say it, but the likelihood is that they already are.

Pericles

I appreciate your candor on this topic.

Well, we the very few, will just have to keep on keeping on, both by how we behave as individuals (activism, volunteer work etc), continuing discussion on internet sites and supporting education (even the rather twee pet programs on TV help get the message across that we must treat animals with empathy and respect).

You would be aware that progress has been made even in the past 20 years, you would not be aware that I have progressed from being a believer in vivisection as a young (very scientific) child to an opponent of experimentation on animals today.

You have made me reflect on my attitude to animals and I believe I am making progress, although I am not ready to give up on my animal companions - I am far more aware of consequences than I used to be.

The human race has a long way to go in many areas (religion, racism, sexism, true democracy) before it can call itself humane.

Thanks for the discussion.

Pericles, you said: “So the only real, lasting answer is to educate the public. Unfortunately, there will only ever be a few who will listen, even fewer who will understand, and a tiny proportion who will do anything about it.”

I agree. Education about Animal Rights is of uttermost importance; education about these issues should start at a young age- introduced by parents and preschool teachers and carefully elaborated upon throughout the education system and through to communities.

As you mention, Scout, we have a long way to go in many areas. I notice, as my kids go through the education system, that issues like racism and sexism are being given some attention, but that the issue of Animal Rights has not come up – apart from one debating topic at primary school, which was “Animals should be caged” when my daughter was taking part in debating competitions.
Correct me if I’m wrong, perhaps there are schools (other than agricultural schools or schools in farming communities) that do discuss ‘Animal Rights’ in detail?

Practically, I am thinking: If parents discuss this issue at parents’ meetings, parents might induce some interest from teachers and other parents, who then could form an interest group.
E.g. when my kids were in primary school, I set up a small discussion group(me, myself, I, and a couple of other multiple personalities ;) -you wouldn’t believe the lack of interest) about Sexism in Children’s books as I took part in reading groups. Even though this didn’t have much influence, some interested and kind teachers let us check out and have a say in obtaining new books for the school library.

I am thinking that there are an incredible amount of children’s books 'staging' animals- it would make an interesting interest group to check and discuss how authors and illustrators ‘treat’ animals in their stories.
Perhaps there could be done something in the fundraising department as well? You never know what suggestions people come up with until you discuss it.
Thanks for the enjoyable discussion!