Pericles “keeping animals as pets is abhorrent. Describing it as slavery is the closest I can get to the concept of a person exercising absolute authority over a defenceless creature”

That is an absolute hoot. I am wheezing in pain with laughter.

Obviously Pericles' assessment of the enslavement of critters was not formulated around owning a cat!

Anyone who has will confirm, no one owns a cat. Cats own their keepers!

I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people.

Those who do seem to me to be deranged simpletons who lack real challenges and issues in their lives, they have lived a pandered existence where some hireling else sorted out all the crap before they awoke and tidied up after the precious wallies went to bed.

Like PETA who seem to believe their precious opinions should be thrown down the throats of Australian pastoralists and graziers. Then the anti-live sheep export mob, to say nothing of the “animal liberationists” who destroyed the fur industry.
Fortunately what I do is unlikely to ever come into contact with such low life scumbags but if they did, I would happily give them a run for their money.
That said, following Abercrombie and Fitch’s acquiescence to PETA I have vowed never to buy a suit from them now or in the future. Anyone can boycott anything and a boycotting the PETA supporter group is what I can and will continue to do.

As for those who lived on farms and can no longer eat meat, good, your withdraw of demand makes the price of cuts cheaper for the rest of us, enjoy your lentils.

You should know by now Col that it is my sole objective in life to amuse you. Sorry about the wheezing, though, you should have someone look at that.

As master of putting words in others' mouths, though, you could do a lot better than this effort.

>>I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people<<

No suggestion has been made that they should have democratic rights, as you well know. Nor should it be necessary to claim democratic rights in order to avoid being oppressed. Poor reasoning - not up to your usual standard of verbal bullying at all.

I take my hat off to your protest against Abercrombie and Fitch though, whose share price is down an impressive ten percent since you withdrew your custom. I presume you have applied the same boycott to product from the entire Australian Wool Growers Association, for the same fatuous reason. Those polyester suits are ok in winter, I'm told, but uncomfortable - and a little smelly - come the warm weather.

But never mind, your cat will still love you.

Yes..I find I'm rather fixated now to this thread, as it contains hitherto unminded gems of philosophical fascination .. and the Gem of most worth is Pericles.

Col...Hi5 about the cat. We have 2, and as u said NO_ONE 'owns' a cat.
They choose where they will reside. When they offer generous affection it is because they want to. My older one snuggles up near my head each night, and last night was my very welcome hot water bottle. (The wife worked very late)

Dogs are pack animals, in the wild or in domestic situations, so the concept of 'slavery' is ludicrous. When in domestic life, they are subject to the 'pack' and alpha male (us) and they guard territory and know their peck order just as in the wild.

As for Horses and Budgies... I am more sympathetic to Pericles argument. A horse must be 'broken' b4 it is useful to humans. When you see horses in full running/kicking exuberance without riders, you can sense that from which they were 'broken'.

Budgies are meant to fly, not be caged. So yes, I can agree on some levels. But cats and dogs ? Never. unless of course their stupid human owners treat them in a manner incompatable with their natural tendencies. Our pus hunts down rats and mice. Dogs bark at strangers.
Very helpful.

In any case. "on what grounds" would you suggest that animals have 'rights' ? i.e. the right not to be enslaved by humans ?
You are of course appealing to something etched in stone ? :) rather than a figment of your European cultural background and that all pervading principle "It seems right to me" ?

Meet you all on the 'cultural identity' thread.

Pericles “I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people”

I should have identified this statement as not pertaining to what you said, uniquely but to other posts whose “deranged panderings etc… “. So accept my apology in drafting. I should have placed that statement further down my post, in different sequence.

Polyester suits? hardly Pericles, certainly not since the very early 1970’s and even then drawing up short of “safari attire”. Recent offerings from Calibre on Collins were found wanting, so I favoured Fletcher Jones just a few days ago, for a suitable grey pinstripe and outrageous tie.

David_B

I dislike the idea of keeping budgies in cages, although my daughter both enjoyed keeping pet cockatiels, for which I built an extravagant aviary.

I am not a dog lover and have never burdened myself with the duty of care for one. Certainly owners of vicious breeds should be hoisted on their own petard and suffer at the teeth of their “pets”, which they use to terrorise neighbourhoods with (or I am sure, in some cases, use to make up for their own anatomical deficiencies).

Cats are wonderful companions, we have an interloper staying, temporarily, who has set his own tyrannous rule upon the entire household.

Gold fish, now who would suggest a bill of rights for goldfish, by the time they have circled the document once, they have forgotten where the beginning was and have to start again.

Whales and Dolphin are much like dogs, certainly in intellectual prowess. I see no huge problem in people making commercial gain from them, the critter does not seem any worse off for a regular feed, veterinary care and housing in exchange for the a few tricks. I do not enjoy circuses personally, but some do and if they are prepared to pay to see such tricks, then let them, I will save my money for my own preferred pursuits.

Rodents, of any sort, should be treated as vermin.

Funny, Col Rouge, re the goldfish with their 3 second memory! But, seriously, fish need space, too!

Even though I do not agree with Pericles that pets like cats and dogs are slaves (what do you think about the point I made in my 2nd post about dogs as pack animals?), I think that conditions of ‘farm animals’ desperately should be improved.

I'd like to concentrate on big issues. ‘People owning pets is abuse’ is a debatable issue- the cruel treatment of farm animals is obvious.
There are animals in more need of help than the pampered pet. Although, pericles, I see what you mean by creating awareness.
I agree with Sharman that “Community education about the lives of animals has a crucial role to play…”

But it should not stop there- World Animal Day (WAD) is not being used to its full potential.

Now that we have said how terrible it is that animals are being legally abused, anyone want to brainstorm?

I am thinking that WAD could be used to select problems that, say, one farm animal faces e.g. factory pigs.
What are the problems and how can these be solved? Anti-factory ads and campaigns need to be shown all year after introducing the problem on WAD, but only awareness is not enough- we need to investigate the options for improvement and decide what specifically can be done to help ‘this’ animal. E.g. do people want to adopt an animal on WAD? Do they want to donate money to this cause? Throughout the year, encourage people to help. How do we help the farmers to improve conditions. We do not want to destroy the lives of farmers, who already have it tough enough. We want to make life easier for them as well as for the animals.

The next year on WAD, celebrate what has been achieved for the pigs and for their farmers, plan what else needs to be done and introduce the problems of another animal. Sometimes people don’t realize that doing something small is important too, like buying free-range eggs instead of caged eggs.

Celivia

Your posts are the most balanced on this thread - good work.

I agree we can each do our part in working towards humane treatment of animals. I buy free range eggs & meat - where I live in the Dandenong Ranges there are many choices for humanely farmed livestock and organic farming.

My current cat was adopted two years ago from an animal shelter after the sudden death from cancer by my 18 year old cat (he is still greatly missed). I also perform voluntary work at the same animal shelter.

I know that our respect for animals have greatly increased over the years - now we have desexing instead of the canvas bag with brick - in the country where I spent my childhood, drowning by this appalling method was the way unwanted litters were disposed of.

The unconditional love I have received from animal friends is humbling indeed.