May lightning strike me dead if I am a conspiracy theorist, but-

My mind keeps wandering back the the Great Scourge of the Siev boats, when we were saved from that armada by the plucky little Drake.

What of all those left behind in Indonesia? What deals were done, with whom. How was it done?

Being seen as hypocrites is not normally a problem. Our government has a hide like an elephant when it suits them.

- so I am left with the feeling that there may be a ticking time-bomb of complicity in something unsavoury left over from those days. Maybe something we would rather not hear about. Maybe something that binds us in a way that goes beyond (or below) normal overt diplomacy.

*

BANG! Crickey, what was that?

*

Over the past few years, I have repeatedly argued that the immigration department should be relieved of its responsibility for the administration of Australia’s refugee and asylum seeker policies. I did not mean to call for a return to the days when refugee and asylum seeker issues were considered to be a foreign policy matter.”

What a blow! The Government hasn’t listened to what poor Klaus has had to say over the years about refugee policy. Apart from never having heard of him, governments are interested in one thing only – being elected. A tougher (it’s not really tough in its own right) border protection than the Opposition’s has helped them stay in power for over 10 years because they, rightly, went along with what the majority of people wanted. Now, when they want to process all illegals offshore, a group of irresponsible backbench malcontents threatens to cross the floor and, knowing that that action would affect the reputation of the PM and be the beginning of the end for the Coalition, the “tough” John Howard and his incompetent immigration Minister have slipped into reverse. We will have an even more shaky and bewildering policy or, if the backbenchers choose to bring more pressure, a complete about face on the whole business of border protection.

Whatever it takes to keep the Coalition in government. So, let’s forget all the nonsense about Refugee Conventions, international and Australian law and other niceties, and come to grips with the fact that everything hinges on the Government’s re-election prospects. The true opposition now is not Labor, but wet Coalition backbenchers; they have more chance of ousting the Government than does the ALP, and John Howard is obviously very scared of them at the moment.

Don’t be at all surprised if the roll-up-uninvited-and-get-a-visa charade continues.

By far the most disgusting public spectacle of late has been that of watching as a bunch of Indonesian Parliamentarians are briefed on how Australia will trash international conventions to please a neighbour at the very same time that Indonesia trashes the most fundamental legal convention of all. The leader of a true terrorist cell was let free to calls from those very same Indonesians for us to respect the "integrity of their legal system" while people seeking to escape state sponsored terror are denied the protection of our legal system (indeed, the world's legal system) at the behest of the same scum.

And for what? If you want to discourage economic migrants then put them to work with pick and shovel, on Indonesian wages plus medicare levy, fixing the road to Cape York. And who would care if 10,000 showed up, there's a lot more roads still to be fixed.

It was John Howard, himself, who said that "we will determine who comes ..etc" but right now it is the Indonesians who are exercising veto over who will come as refugees. No West Papuans need apply.

Leigh you didn't read the post. Refugees do not need a visa, an invitation or anything else to arrive and ask for protection. it is a legal right we have afforded refugees from all over the world if they can get to our territory. What is the point of acceding to the laws if we then say a particular group cannot come.

Were we invited to blow up Iraq, did our soldiers and politicians get visas first? I don't think so but the journalists had to.

The law as it stands says "to be granted a protection visa an applicant must be in Australia", if the same group of people could get to an embassy and ask for a visa to fly here they would be refused on the known basis they would be applying for refugee status.

Just imagine if Africa took our lead and decided to off load their pathetic load of 8 million refugees (compared to our mammoth amount of 42) and looked at the empty land and said "I know let's send to them to Australia in a Pacific solution."

Talk about ridiculous and short sighted rabbiting on with John Howard and his off shore processing. Unless people are Australian they are all off shore.

Chris, are you saying that those who missed the daily Ashmore Reef ferry service and were left behind in Indonesia were refugees or asylum shoppers? What if they have returned to their countries? If they did wouldn’t that undermine the desperation of their plight?

And to test your prescience may I have next week’s powerball numbers PLEASE.

Johnny and Phil want their own Guantanamo, George has got one.

Just substitute Haiti for West Papua and Cuba for Nauru.

No recourse to those pesky courts. Great place for David Hicks. Oh yes I forgot, keep Kevin happy all those union leaders can go there, keep Peter happy we can park our overseas debt there, keep Tony happy we can move all the sick people there, keep Brendan happy we can hide the $2Bn worth of helicopters and $2Bn worth of dud ammo there.

Lucky we mined all the bird poo, we have a place to put our own.

Because our Commonwealth occupies nearly 90% of the Australian continental land area, we have a moral obligation to speak up for the civil and human rights of our fellow Australians. Especially the West Papuans who help save Americans and us from WW-II Japanese and Javanese colonial ambitions of the Pacific war.

Sage. No, not at all.

I am asking, was there some other quiet arrangement between our two governments (to which we were not privy) - which is now being breached by our team?

If there was such an arrangement, wouldn't the threat of it's existence be tantamount to leverage (blackmail). I am trying to figure out why everyone is being so coy.

Or maybe I am just turning into a suspicious old fart.

*

Indeed Australia has an obligation to West Papua: to prevent the use of Australia by barbaric separatist terrorists to launch their campaign of intimidation, murder and human rights violations upon West Papuan people. Only by cooperating with the Indonesian government to crush the violent and barbaric separatism, can eternal peace, justice, law, and order can be guaranteed in West Papua. Long live peace and justice in West Papua! Crush barbaric and lawless separatist murderers!

West Papuan is not a viable independent political entity (even PNG is a at great risk as a nation state). When things fall apart, historically there has always been one option for flight (to PNG). If there is a real blow up in West Papua, Indonesia would happily encourage mass flight to Australia. That is not in the long-term interests of Australia, an Australian Government of any tilt knows that. The responsibility of the Australian Govenment is to look after Australian long-term interests. We can see from East Timor that to take adventures is a high wire act. Iraq is a pretty simple by comparison.

I think we should actively encourage Indonesia to produce a flood of West Papuan refugees to Australia. That way we can train them up as first rate soldiers, equip them well, and send them back to teach these tin pot Javanese racist thugs some respect for human rights.

I had every reason to respect the Indonesian people but if Proud tb Indonesian is any measure of ordinary Indonesians then this bunch of scum are a problem that we should deal with sooner rather than later.

The appeasers of Djakarta's abuses of power are deluding themselves if they think that injustice, piled on injustice, will eventually produce peace, good order and liberty for all. All it will do is fester into a bigger and more costly boil that will need to be lanced anyway.

We saw what an indigenous leader with basic Australian Army Officer training did in Bouganville. So lets give these Indonesian clowns a few hundred like him with a well drilled platoon of his own people each, and a dozen more trained to staff level, and let them do what should have been done in 1969.

West Papua is not PNG, East Timor, nor any other state.
West Papua had been absorbing western physical and social sciences since 1860s which is why there were West Papuan mechanics and a skilled workforce from the 1930s. It is also the reason that college graduates in the 1930s started talking with coastal and highland communities about a need to form a unified national identity and government to protect their cultural interests.

During the Pacific war the Japanese and MacArthur landed across the northern coast of New Guinea, for the people in the Eastern half the Japanese were a supprise. But in Western Papua the arrival of an aggressive colonial power with automatic weapons was what they'd been concerned about for the pass decade, almost fullfillment of prophecy. The only supprise for the West Papuans was how savage and brutal the Asian invaders were. Macarthur choice for headquarters was easy, in the west the people said he was welcome to build twenty US bases to help free neighboring islands from the Japanese, and there was a workforce able to help with construction and malaria control, and most important were quickly able to provide food for a half million Americans from their network of foodgardens spread across the island.

That is also why West Papua was able to elect a national Parliament in 1961.

West Papua has the social skills, history, and resources to help itself and the region. That is also why Jakarta has been unable to defeat the West Papuans for forty years, and why Jakarta is so disparate to hold onto Papua's resources so that Indonesia could double its size and power.

@Perseus:

I completely approve of our government's decision to take a hardline attitude with the Australians. I had every reason to respect Australians, but if Perseus is a measure of regular Aussies, then these people are moronic scums with hilariously overinflated sense of self-importance, whose illogical anti-Indonesian hatred makes them a problem that need to be fixed sooner rather than later.

It is good that Indonesia are now dictating the internal affairs of Australia as acknowledged by Amanda Vanstone. Indonesia was too nice with these loonie Aussies, to the extent they took our kindness as weakness. Now, under SBY, Indonesia knows that these brainless pot-smoking Aussies need to be spanked hard regularly to keep them from misbehaving. By treating Australia with contempt, we show this weakling "country" their place at the bottom of regional food chain, far below Indonesia.

@Daeron:

LOL, I know a Dutch person who lived in West Papuan Catholic dormitory during Dutch colonial period, turned out the boys need to arm themselves every night because at dark, the native Papuans loved to break into the dorm to rape the white girl students. Only after some of the boys killed several of the Papuan intruders, do these nightly rape raids cease.

Indeed an independent West Papua under the rule of barbaric separatists would be a terrible bloody mess, much worse than failed states PNG or East Timor. Even today, the barbaric separatists hiding in PNG spend their days killing enemies from different clans or fighting PNG authorities. Only Indonesian subsidies and supervision from the transmigrants that now made-up 50% of the population help native Papuans advanced from their barbarian state of origin to relatively developed stage today. The only road barbaric separatism would lead is back to Stone Age barbarism where villages launch headhunthing wars to solve dispute over a hog.

Proud to be Indonesian, your posts are like speed bumps. Maybe that's no bad thing.

You have very strong opinions, like a shock-jock (did you ever think of applying - it's a noble calling in this country). I suffer from the need to be a contrarian - put it down to ego.

A few months ago, many of us revealed details of ourselves so that we might get to know and understand each other better. It was a most satisfying exercise - theraputic not only for ourselves, but also for Online Opinion. As you might expect, we discovered that despite our extreme points of view, we had much in common.

That made me think, what is a typical Australian?

If you are Indonesian as you say, what are the circumstances that shaped you? Please allow us to know you better.

This is me:

58 years old.
3 marriages.
3 natural children.
2 stepchildren.
5 grandchildren.

Born C of E, but an aetheist.
A boat person from the UK in childhood.
Experience in electronics and mining.
Now retired to care for disabled wife.

Somewhere in all that is the secret to understanding me.

Your turn. Go ahead please.

It must be the easiest thing in the world to emphasise the difference between people, when those people are separated by culture and language.

Read this well and go figure:

http://www.focusongroup4securicor.org/

Note that we are not so different after all.

This is a hard one for me...usually I go for any option that pokes the Javanese Imperialist Entity (Indonesia) in the face - the more misfortune Indonesia suffers the better I feel. It's called Schadenfreude. So therefore I might be expected to support Papuan independence. In theory I would like the Christian/Animist Papuans to be free of domination by brutish Javanese overlords - it is the same sort of colonial enterprise as the English dominating and enslaving the neighbouring island of Ireland for all those centuries. Just because Papua is near Indonesia doesn't make it fair game for expansionists, any more than England had a right to help itself to Ireland.

However, having said all this, I am concerned that an independent Papua will end up Australia's financial burden, like PNG or Timor or even Indonesia whenever the latest calamity has them thrusting out the begging bowl. Looking at the hopeless state of Timor and PNG I actually favour Indonesia keeping Papua as a perpetual running sore and money pit. So I feel an inner glow when I see Indonesia spending loads of cash trying to keep Aceh and Papua within their glorious unitary state. Anything that is bad for Indonesia is good for me. Ha ha!

I still can't understand that many Australians see West Papua as our propery by birthright.

What is our obligation to West Papua? Australia is a member of ASEAN. That does not give us a unilateral responsibility over land that is not sovereign to Australia.

We are signatories to the UN legal system. We were in breach of the UN laws the minute we invaded Iraq. Australia is signatory to international law that forbids all signatories to invade countries that pose no threat to Australia.

What is our historical involvement? We were at war with the Japanese in WWII, and the "fuzzy wuzzies" helped the Aussie diggers on the Kakoda Track.There is comradery with the Aussie diggers. The UN, however, agrees that the obligation to protect West Papua in incumbent on Indonesia.

I don't think all West Papuans are that barbaric at all. I think that if Australia protected some refugees without any fuss, without drawing attention to the problem, Indonesia would not be so offended.

We have as much responsibility over Indonesian West Papua as Spain, Portugal, Holland, Germany, and maybe the US and the UK, but no more than any of these. We really ought to sought our problems with the UN, for breaching UN conventions in an illegal and illegitimate war against Iraq, a country that posed no threat to Australia other than buying our grain. Australia was stupid enough to offer "kick backs", or bribes in trade, while illegally invading their country.

This sleaze lowered our credibility with a huge section of the world. It is no longer fashionable to be Australian internationally, and we can no longer be respected as an innocent member of the UN. If Australia called the world to action over this as a problem, we will be the laughing stock of the world. Not only is Australia seen as insignificant, it is now seen as devious and suspicious in motive. If you voted for John Howard, get used to it. He took away our thunder.

I like saints comment that " Australia (should have) protected some refugees without any fuss, without drawing attention to the problem, Indonesia would not be so offended”.I can just imagine that happening. Our press & the various political parties would have had a field day exposing it all.

And the incredible naive statement "Australia was stupid enough to offer 'kick backs', or bribes in trade...This sleaze lowered our credibility with a huge section of the world. It is no longer fashionable to be Australian internationally, and we can no longer be respected as an innocent member of the UN" Shows a very limited knowledge of the world -a lot of world business in involves bribes etc and more than half of the UN membership consists of corrupt regimes

On the surface making it easier for West Iran to flee seems compassionate.
But ultimately helps Indonesia’s policy of swamping the West Irian population & culture.
Perhaps we should consider scrapping our programs of training for the Indonesian military & offer to train & arm the West Irian separatists instead.

@Kvasir:

LOL, one of Indonesia's biggest source of revenue came from West Papua and Aceh. PT Freeport Indonesia who ran the largest gold and copper mine in Papua, paid $ 1 billion per year in taxes only, making it the biggest taxpayer in Indonesia. Meanwhile, transmigration to the low-populated West Papua greatly help relieve overpopulation in some islands such as Java and Sulawesi. The farmlands established by these transmigrants now serve as rice-bowl for Eastern Indonesia. Indonesia never see West Papua or Aceh as burden, but as gift from God that we'll take care very well like a baby.

@saintfletcher:

Indeed, your wisdom is unlimited. It is true West Papua belongs to Indonesia as determined by UN, and there is nothing foreign Australia can do about that. Indeed, Australia's involvement in Iraq only reinforces its image as insignificant stooge of USA. Asian countries like Indonesia generally never bothers with Australia because they know if they have good relation with USA, Australia the US stooge will quickly follow suit.

@Kvasir:

LOL, the only people enjoying a "schadenfraude" are Indonesians, we are enjoying the spectacle of East Timor falling into abyss, while seeing incompetent Australia hopelessly burdened financially and militarily by this failed state without any exit.

PTBI - Mmmm...pillaging Papua of gold and other resources, using it as Indonesia's ricebowl, providing lebensraum for Javanese from their overpopulated slums - sounds to me like nothing other than OLD-FASHIONED COLONIALISM. You've really put your foot in your mouth now...to modern Western ears your words are just shocking. Your country ought to be ashamed of itself. Just like England bleeding Ireland dry, just like Japan "advancing" into China or Hitler subjugating Slavs to make room for the German master-race. You really have a very thin grasp on history. Obviously the effects of too much propaganda from the Indonesian Ministry of Truth...

Saintfletcher, if you knew that your neighbour was brutalising his wife and kids would you keep silent? Would you turn her away and tell her to sob miserably somewhere else? Would you reinforce her lack of confidence by telling her that this is the best she can get out of life? Would you send her back outside because the brute was yelling for her return?

The fact is that a neighbours brutality diminishes everyone. The most fearful wound of all is an amputated spirit.

@Kvasir:

LOL, the only colony left in Asia-Pacific area is Australia, where white squatters have barbarically committed genocide against Aborigines and have stolen their land without permission. There is indeed one solution to forever crush old-style COLONIALISM from the region: for whites to RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!

@Perseus:

Indeed Indonesia cannot stay quiet while the brute whites barbarically torture and abuse its Aboriginal population. Indonesia as member of UN Human Rights Council will watch and scrutinise the white Australians to protect Aboriginals from further human rights violations in the hands of genocidal white Australians.

PTBI - We look forward to the day when Papuans expel the Indonesian colonial invader from the island of New Guinea. Indonesia is an illegitimate state and an artificial construct that has no right to exist. Island by island, your country will unravel, having already started with East Timor. I must say it will give me great pleasure to watch it go down. History has never been kind to multi-ethnic empires. Although I must say I have zero sympathy for the Acehnese...you may keep them.

@Kvasir:

We look forward to the day when Aborigines expel the white parasites from Australian continent. "Commonwealth of Australia" is an illegitimate state and an artificial colonial construct that has no right to exist. With the rapid growth of Aboriginal population, soon enough whites will receive the proper payback over the barbaric genocide and land-theft they've committed against Aboriginals. What comes around, goes around.

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!

Is there an echo in the room...? Isn't it funny, I have long read Online Opinion and have marvelled at the height of PTBI's racism and arrogant aggressive attitudes to Australians of all races, except of course his ostentatiously feigned sympathy for indigenous Australians. (Of course what he is really sorry about is that Indonesia didn't get a chance to get its grubby mitts on all those resources in northern Australia, like it has with Papua).

So I thought I would it would be fun to give him a dose of his own medicine and dish back his revolting hyperbole in the same way; and doesn't the poor little baby gets SOOOO upset? At first I thought it was so funny prodding him to get all wound up - like setting off a silly toy doll. It was like a game, pressing all the buttons and hearing the swaggering, grandiose Third World rhetoric frothing from his mouth. Of course it is amusing, but look at what lies beneath it...

I think his benighted attitudes had better be a lesson to all Australians. We Westerners have thought that such vile, aggressive, naked nationalism verging on facism perished with Hitler. I think we can draw two possible conclusions from PTBI's ravings: either he is totally deranged and doesn't represent a wide body of opinion in Indonesia, or more horrifyingly he may be very typical - in which case we had better prepare ourselves for war within a generation. I'm sure he believes that latter, and I'm sad to say I think it's true. While we are having the nuclear power debate, I think we'd better also consider nuclear deterrence, just to remove from Indonesia the temptation to mess with Australia.

@Kvasir:

LOL, your futile attempt to twist the truth won't work, boy. Everybody knows I am never in any stretch of imagination an aggressive person, but rather I am justly defending Indonesia from vicious aggressive attacks from certain immature Australian forummers here. We Indonesians know that the arrogant and aggressive "Ozzies" are a menace that must be subdued at the earliest possible moment as deterrance to avoid complications. As you might notice, we always enjoy dispensing this necessary task.

Let this experience be a lesson for yous Australianers: If you are too weak and cannot stomach my defensive punishment, don't commit your criminal assault. Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burnt.

PS: None of my words are rhetorics, all are nothing but the truth. I know the truths I exposed might hurt your pride, but it must be told :-)

And dream-on about having nuclear plant in Australia, your powerful Green and Labour Party will ensure this will never happen, not to mention no Australian neighborhood wants a nuclear plant in their area. Meanwhile, Indonesia is ready to go nuclear in the next five years.

yawn...I'm so sick of PTBI's bad manners. Isn't he gauche? Are all Indonesians as rude as this? Someone send him to a finishing school in Switzerland please.

I am determined to stay afloat in the sea of bull-

Here is a bi-lingual website about Indonesia:

http://www.parasindonesia.com/index.php

Consider adding it to your favourites and subscribing to the newsletter.

Here you will find many attitudes explained and much history unravelled.

I haven't found anything that parallels PTBI's attitudes though. Maybe he's the exception.

Enjoy!

@Kvasir:

LOL, I am "gauche", am I? Hahaha, very funny.. you must be delusional to expect Indonesians to treat you with tender-loving-care after all the vicious attacks and insults Australians had done against us.

Let me teach you a lesson for life, boy: people will treat you the way you treated them.

LOL PTBI, I am only responding to you in the same way you treat Australians.

And listen here boy, I am sick of all your fake sympathy for Aboriginals - I am actually an indigenous Australian myself and if I look at the way you Javanese treat Papua, and also your horrible manners I shudder to think what you would have done to Aboriginals and all the resources lying under northern Australia. If somebody had to do it, I actually prefer it was the English that colonised this continent and not you Indonesians. No doubt, given a chance you would have extended your transmigration program to northern Australia after swallowing Papua - and now Australia would be in squalour like Indonesia. Most indigenous people in this country have some mixed blood and surprise, surprise, not all of us deny our English or Irish ancestry.

Learn to treat all Australians with respect and you might get some back. Fancy having to tell a grown man this simple life lesson...how sad.

@Kvasir:

LOL, what a hilarious joke. After I annihilate all your non-sense, you now try to make joke accusing Indonesians have interest in the dry deserts of northern Australia. Yet another hilarious display of exaggerated sense of self-importance.

The fact is, Indonesia is never interested in northern Australia just like we have no interest on Alaska or Burkina Faso. It's remarkable how infantile a person can be to concoct a fantasy indicating otherwise.

@Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464:

That website, Paras Indonesia, is run by some white trash who used to live in Indonesia. Practically no Indonesian ever visit that site and in fact that website was offline for years until recently because nobody ever visit it. In short, it's just another website who just copy-and-paste the contents of other website a.k.a internet trash. Quite useless if you want to understand Indonesia, a better wensite would be the excellent free online journal "Indonesia" published twice a year by Cornell University in New York, USA:

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS/UI/1.0/Journal?authority=seap.indo

Well that shows how stupid Indonesians are doesn't it? Northern Australia has the world's largest supply of uranium, 300 years of high quality black coal, bauxite, the largest iron ore deposits in the world, huge amounts of natural gas...And sorry; learn some geography, northern Australia is savannah - deserts don't have monsoonal wet seasons. Alaska would have been nice to take, all that oil, but how would you ever organise yourselves to get up there?

You know, no matter what you say I will never believe you. Regardless of how many times you repeat your insults they have no effect on us. The reason is that we don't respect Indonesia on any level, therefore your opinions and insults are worthless. Insults only carry meaning if you respect who they are coming from - otherwise they are a laughable joke. So when you say Indonesians don't like Australians, well, what can I say? Who cares? When your GDP per capita reaches a minimum of $20,000 try again then please.

PS. I had a peek at the "excellent" Cornell journal that you recommend on the amazing Indonesia. One of it's fascinating articles is titled: "Playing the Game: Ethnicity and Politics in Indonesian Badminton" how absolutely enthralling, I can't wait to read it...

The United Nations recognises that West Papua is the sovereign land of Indonesia.

After the George W Bush has been found to be guilty of illegally using Guantanamo Bay in Cuba against the Geneva conventions, by his own Supreme Court, and by his own US laws, he has a 10% approval rating in the US. The alliance of the willing is crumbling. Judgement has only just started.

Unfortunately for Australian neo-cons, John Howard and Tony Blair signed the UN treaty binding Australia accountable to international UN law shortly after Howard gained office. Following this contract, Australia illegally invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, as this was against the UN legal contract that they had signed. In breach of this law, the UN international court has the juristiction to prosecute the Australian Government for war crimes.

As judgements go by, the credibility of Australia goes down and the credibility of Indonesia goes up. Like it or not, the world is not listening to Australia any more as it no longer deserves the time. They are now listening to Indonesia, the sovereign owner of West Papua.

Like it or not, that is the way it is, and if you want to interfere, that is in your dreams. Get real. BTW, PTBI is actually a human rights activist who cares for the rights of the oppressed. This is possible, and I know PTBI would be the first to keep them on their toes too. I remember that conversation and I think he is sincere in his passion for human rights.

Australia is in no position to preach tollerance to minority groups, freedom of speach, or fairness. We can talk the talk, but do we walk the walk? The Aboriginal people don't think so. Many immigrants don't think so either.

saintfletcher

I agree totally with your last post. (Sheesh I must be going senile)

With the passage of time the half truths peddled by Politicians will be forgotten and our good neighbours Indonesia will still be there. Hopefully with an increasing quality of life and prosperity.

Saintfletcher says that the UN recognises Indonesia as the sovereign ruler of Indonesia - so what? In Indonesia's vaunted new "democracy" they should be free to lobby for independence like Quebec in Canada or Catalonia in Spain. Quebecois activists have been running a long campaign for independence from Canada, and the province has come very close to it in a referendum - so the campaign continues. I absolutely believe that a civilised country like Canada would let Quebec go without question if it met the legal requirements for separation. Why are Quebecois activists allowed to continually campaign for independence in Canada and Papuans are not in Indonesia? Let them test Indonesia's democratic credentials - it will be interesting to see how "democratic" Indonesia really is. I think I already know the answer...

And Steve Madden, Indonesia will become more prosperous when they put their noses to the grindstone and work hard for at least three generations like admirable Japan, South Korea, Singapore or Taiwan. It doesn't just "happen" by magic. And no excuses, no paranoid conspiracy theories...just do it. Indonesia should just focus on getting this job done instead of showboating around pretending to be the leader of the region. As far as I'm concerned that kind of behaviour just invites contempt. Indonesia has ALOT of work to do to make its country even barely livable. Foreign affairs can come after that huge domestic problem has been squared away.

@Kvasir:

Aww.. what a gauche boy you are. How rude.

PS: USA cruelly militarily crushed Confederate States of America (CSA) separatists in the very bloody American Civil War, killing 25% of Southern white adult male population. Until today, separatism is illegal under US Constitution. Until now, UK put one-third of its army in tiny Northern Ireland to fight and intimidate the popularly-based IRA in order to force unwanted British rule upon unwilling Catholic Irishmen.

I guess you don't consider USA and UK as democratic countries, aight?

@saintfletcher:

Thank you, sir. It is merely my humble human instinct forcing me to speak out. What human being won't feel unconditional sympathy to the plight of the unfortunate Aborigines?

And PTBI, what a rude boy YOU are.

Kvasir: The top end from Cairns to Darwin is hardly savanah. Unless they have jungles and swamps and crocadiles in savanah. The wet seasons are really wet, you can actually grow fungus on your feet if you are not careful.

The savanah is just north of the outback, not the entire top end.

Yes Quebec did have an independence movement and it was really nasty.

They even tried to assassinate Queen Elizabeth II when there were riots at her visit to Quebec in the 1970s. Things got serious as there were so many plots to assassinate the Queen.

Between them and the IRA, it is amazing she is still alive.

It is in the United States constitution to discourage any American country to be dominated by a European power. Yet the US never supported the Quebecan seperatists. They respected Canada and the UK and the Queen: their greatest allies.

The difference is, Australians see domination as the birthright of the "superior Australian people", to be directly involved with a seperatist movement in another country. The Americans never assumed this premise with Quebec. They never supported the seperatist movement in Northern Ireland either. Yet both are in the US spirit of republican independence.

The Gulf War over Kuwait was another issue. This was a travesty that should have never happened in the first place, and that was a mistake for the US to interfere with. Even greater mistake for Bush Jr. to continue the mess, and his father's bankruptcy.

It is not the time to thumb our noses at the United Nations and follow the crumbling Bush to hell.

The only hope we have for peace is to uphold the UN, stop getting so arrogant, grow up, listen to what all parties have to say, be patient, and wait for a better outcome.

Being so reactionary and childish to other countries does them no justice at all, it just inflames the situation. Swap recepies for better food ideas and culture and trade, don't swap bombs. "The spice Islands" can even teach some of you yobbos how to cook a healthy diet.

Yes I am aware that there are swamps in the Top End; the point I was making to PTBI was that it is certainly NOT desert where preindustrial Indonesians would have landed in sailing boats - they would have had to walk hundreds of kilometres overland before they hit any desert.

As far as those independence movements are concerned; I used Quebec and Catalonia as examples as they are fairly nonviolent, compared with the IRA or Basque separatists ETA. The avowedly separatist Bloc Quebecois has been at times the main opposition party in the Canadian federal Parliament and the Parti Quebecois has been in power at a provincial level numerous times, both actively pursuing independence in a constitutional manner. Canada tolerates this long-running campaign openly. Indonesia will also have to learn to tolerate this if it is to be taken seriously as a democracy. Indonesia forgets that democracy is NOT just about holding a gala election day. Also it is well known that massive funding and support for Northern Irish independence comes from individuals and groups in the USA.

Moreover, I find it amusing that our heroic defender of nonwhite rights, PTBI, should find sympathy with the "cruelly crushed" Confederate States of America and shed crocodile tears for all those dead white slaveowners. Doesn't he care that this short-lived country was based on white domination of black slave labour? Or does the principle of national indivisibility trump the suffering of individuals based on their colour? Judging by his posts, I'd say it does. Long live the glorious superior unitary state of Indonesia.

Saintfletcher, just why should the world have acquiesced when Iraq tried to take Kuwait, anyway? Just because a country is small, why does that mean a larger neighbour can annex it? I think it was quite proper for Saddam to have been pushed out of Kuwait. I thought you were against larger countries bullying their neighbours...Or is it OK for big nonwhite countries to bully small nonwhite countries?

@saintfletcher:

Again, you've displayed an awesome expression of wisdom. Indeed Australians tend to behave in a reactionary and childish manner when dealing with Indonesia and other Asian countries. Just look at this clownish Kvasir, after I annihilate all his childish rantings, he hilariously makes desperate accusations, such as calling me a "Confederate sympathiser".

With people like Kvasir, no wonder nobody really takes Australia seriously, even the US took Australia for granted. Indeed Australia should learn to grow up and get over its hillbilly delusions of "superiority".

@Kvasir:

LOL, the naughty boy wants to play the pot calling the kettle black. How gauche.

Don't worry, boy. Indonesia will never tolerate separatism like that pioneer in democracy the USA. Such intolerance toward separatism is in accordance with the iron will of Indonesian people.

PS. Neither Indonesia nor any other country in the world have any interest with your swamps/deserts/jungles of northern Australia. Deal with it :-)

Did that naughty little Indonesian boy, PTBI, go to school in North Korea? His hypernationalistic, abusive ravings sound just like they're straight out of the Korean Central News Agency, only the country is different. He is so childish and aggressive, and his behaviour is the reason why so many Australians look down on uneducated, disorganised, boorish, corrupt Indonesian peasants; whereas we respect civilised Japan, South Korean, Taiwan and Singapore, we have contempt for basket-case Indonesia. It's a country that deserves to fall apart. The trouble with the clown PTBI is that he can dish out abuse, but not take it. It's high time the naughty boy was given a dose of his own medicine.

@Kvasir:

LOL, once again, your futile attempt to twist the truth is useless, boy. As saintfletcher said, everybody knows the only arrogant and aggressive behaviour here is initiated by childish clowns like you and some other contemptuous Aussie forummers. Meanwhile, I am by no means an aggressive person at all, since I am upholding a completely virtuous defensive campaign against Australian aggression, as self-defence is a God-given right and a constitutional obligation for all Indonesians. You must be lunatic to expect Indonesians to take your insults face-down and not retaliate.

Let this be a lesson for you, Kvasir-boy. If you don't wanna get burnt, don't play with fire. If you try to abuse Indonesia, we'll ensure to return the favour upon you, but this time magnified by ten times.

What nonsense has saintfletcher written ? ? ?

The United Nations did NOT recognise "West Papua is the sovereign land of Indonesia" / that is a fantasy which the Jakarta Lobby wants people to accept their word on. The United Nations under pressure from corporate America (specifically Bechtel & the Rockefeller's Freeport company) to allow the world's largest mine, evades giving its opinion or sanction of the Indonesian claim. Instead it merely "Takes note" of the Indonesian claim.

Read UN GA Resolution 2504 at http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/24/ares24.htm

I read your reference Daeren. There does seem to be a rocky road from the New York agreement of 1962, to the Rome agreement of 1969. The 1969 Rome agreement included confusian due to fear in the Vietnam war and the "domino theory" over Indonesia becomming "communist". I can see your concern about the ambiguiuity over the UN official recognition of sovereignty. The agreements did, however, include without opposition:

"Upon the adoption of UN General Assembly Resolution 2504 (XXIV)...the international community recognized, de jure and de facto, that the region of Irian Jaya was an integral part of the Unitary State of Indonesia. This international recognition could not be annulled or revoked, for not one country in the world could challenge the legitimacy of the territory of Irian Jaya as part of the Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia. The principle of integrity and sovereignty of any state is one of the main principles embodied in the United Nations Charter. Consequently, any separatist movement would be rejected by the international community, as it violated the principles and objectives of the United Nations".

The UN had to mediate between the Netherlands and Indonesia. Of all UN delegates, no one voted against this agreement. The agreement also included a statement from the former sovereign of Indonesia: The Netherlands, which never recognised the sovereignty of West Papua.

For the record, I am not a part of any so called "Jakarta Lobby".

I don't wish to lobby for or against Indonesia. For peace, diplomacy must win over conflict. This is consistant with the UN concerns over the war in Iraq.

It is wise for Australia to stay out of this not for Indonesia's sake, but for our own national interests. We were colonies from another Empire. Australia only gained sovereignty in 1986 under the "Australia Act" thanks to Paul Keating. Before then, Australia was sovereign to the Crown based in the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Technically, our own sovereignty is only 20 years old.

Did Indonesia challenge our sovereignty before 1986?