The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Racism is not simply black and white > Comments

Racism is not simply black and white : Comments

By Ghassan Hage, published 16/6/2006

Discrimination and bias can exist among minority groups too.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 14
  7. 15
  8. 16
  9. All
“Along with the division of people as good and bad lies a common anti-racist conception of racism as always white. This is also far from the truth: everybody can be racist. White people of a European background do not have a monopoly on racist beliefs and attitudes; it is a feature of all cultures.”

Some of us have always known this, but are howled down – mainly by lily-white, left ratbags who love to hate themselves and their own kind.

We whites have certainly had the upper hand and have, of course, looked bad to people who have felt oppressed and powerless. But, thanks to the lily-whites mentioned above, who feel guilt and have over-reacted by shrieking for multiculturalism and the introduction of just about every culture on earth to Australia, the tide will turn, and they, along with people they call ‘racist’, will suffer. The boot will be on the other foot, and the shrinking Anglo/Saxon/Celtic community will feel what it is like to be subjected to racism.

An excellent article which will probably be ignored by most. For my part, I am very glad that I’ll be long dead and cremated before the demographic and social structure of Australia changes. Good luck to you young lefties and your offspring (if you are around long enough to have any.) You are going to need it!
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 16 June 2006 11:33:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
AT LAST.....but we want MORE...

The most blatant example of racism during the Cronulla events was:

a) The loony white supremacists who made blanket condemnation of all 'wogs and lebs'
b) The attitude explained by a Muslim counsellor on National TV that the Lebanese Muslims regarded themselves as 'Superior' to Australians of anglo background and that they 'hated' western values in general.

What irritates me no end is the taking up of JUST the loony white supremacist mantra by the media and their generalization of its applicability to ALL Anglo Aussies who were present on the day of Cronulla.

I hope the author will seek to further express his disgust at such things as the London protests against Denmark. He should condemn these outrages as straight from the pit of hell.

"We will kill you and take your wives as war booty"

Just like the Lebanese youth who screamed "We are going to F**K your mothers" during Cronulla.

and numerous other statements yelled out by MANY 1000s of Muslims in chants where they all echoed the call of the leader.
The "Emporer" of Britain should take all these people out to a remote place and execute them forthwith !...

LOOK and LEARN from this video.. then ask yourselves, "Are any like these in Australia" ? of COURSE there are... many many of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axgxyrBB31Y

and just to refresh everyones memory of how THOSE people will act if let run free .. here is the attack on Steve at Maroubra...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3NJNQ67CWA

The police KNOW that one Ahmed jajia was with them, he is the one who 'protected' Steve AFTER he had his arm broken by an iron bar from the 30+ who attacked him.

Jajieh KNOWS those people. WHY would they stop when HE told them ? if not him having some 'status' among the group ?
Does he not know the 'driver' of the car he came in ? or HIS passengers if he drove ?

HOW MANY of these people have been arrested and charged ?
UNTIL THEY ARE CHARGED and CONVICTED... there will be no peace...ever.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 16 June 2006 12:26:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Gassan, good article.

I did find myself cringing at "But the idea of equalising between the Cronulla riots and Lebanese racism is equally ridiculous, when it is not simply mischievous.", and the apparent suggestion that the actions of a crowd on one day is somehow far worse than what appears to be a systematic campaign of extreme racist behaviour by a group of thugs over a number of years (let alone the retailiation against people who were no where near Cronulla that day).

The protest turned racist but I do believe that for most what was at it's heart was not a hatred of people who look different but a rejection of a particular community based on the actions of members of that community (and the apparent indifference by the leaders of that community to those actions).

From what I've understood of the issue the crowd at Cronulla that day consisted of a large number of people fed up with systematic abuse dished out at the hands of thugs who the authorities and community leaders appeared to be unwilling to deal with and a small number of dead set racists. There is a lesson for us all in how such a protest can be turned into something really ugly but nothing I've see of the issue gives me reason to believe that it got anywhere near as ugly as the racist behaviour of the gangs that led up to the protest/riot and followed it. Nor of the racist behaviour of those community leaders who have continued to whitewash the gangs actions since that event.

Cronulla was a sad moment in this nations history but may well be repeated while some continue to believe that it was a greater offence than the events that lead up to and followed it.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 16 June 2006 12:29:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Leigh, I don't know what article you've just read, but Ghassan Hage is the biggest anti-racist lefty I know:

But if you liked this article Leigh, you'll love his other work. Take the time to read it, seriously:

http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/pnp/free/pnpv7n1/v7n1_4hage.pdf

http://www-personal.arts.usyd.edu.au/ghahagea/Ghassan_files/APN_9_small.jpg

http://www-personal.arts.usyd.edu.au/ghahagea/Ghassan_files/White%20Nation%20cover%20jpeg
Posted by strayan, Friday, 16 June 2006 2:14:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
BOAZ_David writes... "The most blatant example of racism during the Cronulla events was..."

Why is it some kind of competition?

BOAZ_David writes... "I hope the author will seek to further express his disgust at such things as the London protests against Denmark. He should condemn these outrages as straight from the pit of hell."

Why does he need to condemn it?
Posted by strayan, Friday, 16 June 2006 2:21:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Regarding Mr Jajieh

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/how-one-man-defied-a-cronulla-mob/2006/01/21/1137734189862.html
He was present at the Punchbowl park meeting, decided to follow on independantly due to concern over people getting killed, and arrived in time to see Steve being beaten, whereupon he claims he stepped out of his car, and sought to protect Steve.

My other post gave a suggestion of direct involvement. (based on available information,which has now been added to)

He did try to protect Steve. Well done ! I'd be most happy to return the favor if Ahmed was in trouble by either Anglo's or Lebs.

Now, can we have the same attitude of protection and civic responsibility taken a step further, by naming some of the major perpetrators ?

Which is worse, the shame of seeing members of your community do this; or the shame of knowing who they are and not saying anything ?

If any seek your harm, call the police. That's what they are always telling us to do, "Don't take the law into your own hands" they say....and they wonder why people DO consider alternatives for their own safety.

There are many unanswered questions about all this.

Why doesn't Ahmed join the forum and help us out here ?

My posts in relation to this issue must seem a bit hysterical at times, and surely they are. That's how deep the wound goes and I come from Melbourne.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 16 June 2006 2:31:11 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Reacting to the danger of islam is not racism.
All religions are ridculous but Islam is extremely dangerous.
The notion that most Muslims are wonderful except for a few extremists is nonsense.Islam, they will tell you, is a 'way of life" and most Muslims are just a number of degrees away from fanaticism.
Sooner or later the world must be divided between Muslims and non-Muslims and the war of annihilation begun. The sooner the better while we have the technological advantage.
Fundamentalist christians are a pain in the arse, fundamentalist Jews are lunatics, but the Jihadi Muslims will slaughter all before them. Wake up you fat fools.
Posted by citizen, Friday, 16 June 2006 2:33:58 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ghassan argues that "... the state of anti-Muslim animosity that is being legitimised and routinised is such that it is not far-fetched to imagine ourselves engaging in the racist mass incarceration or even extermination of Muslims on the grounds that they are racists"

Citizen, you did not have to go to such lengths to prove him right.
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 16 June 2006 3:35:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Is there any nation in this world that is NOT racist to some degree.
Most people think their own culture is superior,even cannibals had their pride.
It is when certain cultures immigrate to another totally different culture then try to override the host ,that the sparks fly.
The host country can say,if your home was so damned good why did you leave it? Why don't you get back there ASAP!
In Australia we are gradually throwing off the culture cringe and realising that we have been fed a lot of bull.... about our culture and other cultures.Mainly by the lordly Left.
Is Abu Bashir Bakir racist?Or is he a gentle man who is simply giving advice out of the goodness of his heart?
ALL Australians should swear allegiance to Australia and Australia alone or leave.
Posted by mickijo, Friday, 16 June 2006 3:36:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Figures do not support the perception that Australians are overtly racist. In their book How Australia Compares, authors Tiffen and Gittins present the figures gathered in a 1990s survey on the sorts of people who were not desired as neighbours. Responses and percentages were: drug addicts 74, heavy drinkers 60, people with a criminal record 45, emotionally unstable 38, and immigrants and people from a different race 5. Fancy that! Only 5 per cent of Australians objected to living next door to people of another race. Some of the countries who express disquiet about having different races as next door neighbours were Austria and Belgium 20 per cent, Japan 17 per cent, France, Italy and Germany 13 per cent.
Posted by Sage, Friday, 16 June 2006 3:40:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I was a "white" anti-racist until I read Ghassan Hage's books. I've been trying to understand and appreciate the puzzling thinking of my fellow "white" Australians' ever since. So are a lot of other "lily whites".

It's not easy and it's not made any easier when people assume that an anti-racist is automatically a bad Australian or stupid. That's as bad as anti-racists assuming the same thing of the other side.

The saddest thing about these divisions is that we've come to focus on them and define one another in these terms - left/right, racist/anti-racist, cosmopolitan/parochial. We tend to forget what we have in common. In a roundabout way, when we allow ourselves to be divided over these issues we're more vulnerable to the things people fear, on both sides of the fence.
Posted by chainsmoker, Friday, 16 June 2006 4:42:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It's easy to be against racism. Much harder to recognise it in yourself and deal with it. I call myself a non-racist. In truth, I am sometimes instinctively, involuntarily uncomfortable around people of other races and have to use rational thinking to overcome it. At other times I find myslef adopting a superior, condescending tone towards people of a different skin colour and culture, and have to be vigilant to prevent it. I don't know why - growing up in a white supremacist society in the 1950s with aboriginal squalor and deprivation in full view, probably. I know that no race is superior to any other - it's all about power, who has it, and how it is used.

At least my daughter, growing up in a racially mixed school, is demonstrably free of these attitudes.
Posted by PK, Friday, 16 June 2006 5:00:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is easy enough to find racism if you look for it. An Iranian friend is barred from the house of his father-in-law (a Lebanese Maronite) because he is a Muslim, despite being an agnostic. The father-in-law has disowned his own daughter and grandson as well. A Malay acquaintance, wandering through Redfern with a blonde blue-eyed friend, was told by an Aboriginal man (who presumed she was Aboriginal) that she shouldn't be hanging about with "white trash". An elderly Russian lady, apropos of nothing, told me that my suburb was going to the dogs because of "all the asians". Further afield, recent comments on Condoleea Rice in China http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1461208,00.html demonstrate a deep well of racism in China.

Some prejudices (anti-Semitism comes to mind) are deeply ingrained. Others are merely the product of fear of the unknown. Still others are a way of blaming life's disappointments on someone else.

Fads in prejudice come and go. I'm the product of a "mixed marriage" (Catholic and Protestant) and amazingly enough there are still Micks and Proddies holding onto their hatreds.

The best cure for prejudice is mixing with people from other cultures on an equal footing. Some of the problems at Cronulla can be explained by the fact that the Sutherland Shire is a monoculture, where you can live without meeting anyone who challenges your prejudices.

What we saw on display in both the riots and the revenge attacks were tribalism, machismo and misogynism. Combined with alcohol it makes a pretty ugly picture.
Posted by Johnj, Friday, 16 June 2006 7:37:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The benefits of multiculturalism is highly questionable. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm
for more details.

Multiculturalism is as excessive as the capitalist society that creates it - with origins from 18th century slavery in the United States to boot!

Some seem to suggest on this forum mukky culti would cure all our problems rather than create it. What do we do? Import migrants into any white monocultural place to suit some ideological objective?

In reality, racism is only a moral issue when the discriminated is helpless and unable to fend for themselves. For example, a wealthy indian is unlikely to take offense to racial diascrimination the SAME way an impoverished afro-american would. Anti-racism is a patronising acknowledgement of our supposed 'privilege'.
Posted by davo, Friday, 16 June 2006 8:26:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Racism is natural and normal.

It is a cultural universal that people prefer to live around other people they feel safe with. They wish to live with people that they who they consider are their kith and kin, who have the same standard of behaviour that they have based upon the same cultural values that they have. The primary purpose of racism is defence of territory by a group as a survival imperative. Prosperous communities can afford to be tolerant but cummunities under stress can be very intolerant.

A couple of hundred years ago, the evangelical social crusaders of the time identified "the seven deadly sins" as the root of all evil. Todays evangelical social crusaders have added "racism" to that list. The thinking seems to be that when racism is destroyed, everybody in the world will sit around the campfire singing "Kumbaya" and the world will live happily ever after.

That this worldview might be considered somewhat potty can be illustrated by the Jewish experience. It would be hard to find any people who have suffered more from racism than the Jews. So it should be obvious that they of all people should be against it. But in Israel it is either the Jews or the Arabs that march into oblivion, and the Jews have decided that it is not going to be them. It goes without saying that the Jews are very racist towards the Arabs and vice versa. Such behaviour is not only normal, it can even be considered admirable, in wartime.

But even within the Jews there is racism. When the Jewish diaspora came together in Israel it became a meeting place for Western and Eastern (Orthodox)jews who's cultural values were so divergent that they decided that they did not like each other. Both groups routinely sneer at each other with the terms "Frankum" and "Goyem".

Sounds like racism to me.
Posted by redneck, Friday, 16 June 2006 9:20:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi y'all
Is what is natural always good?

I can understand a father seeing his daughter in an abusive marriage being willing to kill her husband, it is certainly natural. But would it be good for the father to do so?

It is natural, because of ignorance, prejudice (and I do not use these words pejoratively), or bigotry, to worry about who is living nearby. Sometimes it is also warranted.

The question transforms itself into something along the lines of:
"Is it always good to act in accordance with how we feel or think at some particular time in some particular circumstance?"

While the answer on some occasions, in some circumstances, might be that it is good to act in accordance with how we feel or think at that time in those circumstances, this is not the case at all times, in all circumstances.

Recognising that fate and the future may be capricious (our daughter may nmarry a muslim), we need to think coolly and carefully about some things, at some times, in order to make good decisions about our future, our country's future, and about what we do that influences these things.

Dr. Hage's article can be read as a call to this kind of awareness.

I thank him for it.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Friday, 16 June 2006 10:46:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
'Racism' is a fairly new word used to cry down something that has always existed.
It is deeper that a clash between cultures , it is a survival instinct that we have all carried since the beginning of time. It is a defensive instinct that probably has been our savior.
But it has become the watchword for trendoids to control our instincts and for a long period ,it has worked.
We do feel more comfortable with those who share our culture, our traditions. We can relax among those with whom we feel at ease and those who have shared our common heritage .
There is nothing wrong with that. It simply being human.
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 17 June 2006 3:29:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"....extermination of Muslims on the grounds that they are racists."I thought there were quite a few Muslims like Abu Bakar Basheer who wouldn't mind exterminating "the infidels",but we cannot critise them since they are a minority group who must be understood and tolerated.

It is about time all language of intolerance and hate was removed from so called Holy Books and then some logic may enlighten us all.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 17 June 2006 3:58:09 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Racism is natural; we all view our world through our own values and beliefs. Racism is definitely not limited to black or white but “universal”.

And then we have Islam that views all non-muslems as kuffar scum not worthy of co-existence with their superior cultic breed.

The only three ways a non-muslim can co-exist in an islamic country is:

1. Revert back (convert) to Islam
2. Become a second-class citizen
3. Be killed in the name of Allah

As many posts indicate here - when dealing with islam, we are dealing with a total different beast.

In racism there is the "I don't like you" remark/ feeling; to the "we don't mix with “xyz” race” type of discrimination; and the "go back to where you came from” variety of racism.

But Islam is one group of races the likes of which most Australians have not known before. A blood thirsty death loving "Our Way or Die" sort that will stop at nothing to rule the world.

Unless our politicians unite, wake up and legislate against this rampant carcinogen there will be no future in politics for their own children under an Islamic regime…

Islam is beyond racism – we are being invaded by a political movement disguised as a religion from god (Allah). This is a war we must win or forever submit to their heroes the likes of the Abubakars, Zarqawis, and Bin Ladens, and present our future generation with centuries of oppression and slavery as our legacy. Not to mention violence
Posted by coach, Saturday, 17 June 2006 5:41:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yay coach
History repeats itself. What's new?
Now what was the last religion that disguised a political movement?
Sauce for the goose, coach, sauce for the goose.
I believe your comments are just gonna make them (whoever them is, in your case of delusional psychosis, Islamists) back down and cry and want to hug us all. Everyone knows that fanatics respond to hatred with love, don't they?

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Saturday, 17 June 2006 8:20:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thank you Strayan for your expose’ on Ghassan Hage.

Internationalist humanitarians love to stereotype racists as stupid, ignorant, cretins whose poor level of intellect is unable to encompass the “superior” thinking of the humanitarians. It is amusing to realize that humanitarians who claim that “all men are equal”, most definitely do not believe in their own ideology.

My own stereotype of trendies is that most of them are young people who have been programmed by their preacher teachers to think on rigid lines, in the same way that the Nazi Party in Germany programmed the Hitler Youth to do the same. Fortunately, the difference is that the “social progressives” in democracies do not have full control over the media as they did in Germany, so most young people will grow out of their youthful idealism and one track thinking, sooner or later.

Those humanitarians who never appear to grow out of their evangelical, finger wagging mindset are an interesting bunch. I divide them into two groups also. The first appear group appear to be motivated by a compelling need to display their social and moral superiority over the rest of society. This is the reason why so many “humanitarian” posters on this site are so notably hostile to their opponents.

So many of them come onto this debate site with the apparent idea of “I will show these stupid oafs who are the smart ones around here” and they can get very angry and emotional when their ideological thinking is effectively countered by informed opponents. It can be hilarious to watch their posts become more disjointed and their language more insulting when they realize that their ego boosting exercise is not going to plan.

In the final group I would put people like Ghassan-Hage. These people have a vested interest in promoting the welfare of their own group, in Mr Hassan’s case that would be Muslims. So he wraps his self interest in the language of altruism in order to appeal to the useful fools who would happily destroy their own culture to promote their own feelings of self worth.
Posted by redneck, Sunday, 18 June 2006 6:39:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck,

I think you are a bit confused about what thinking men are all equal actually means. To believe that all "men are equal" simply means that you respect the humanity in each of us in equal measure, not that you repsct their opinions, attitutes and actions equally.

One of the ways in which you show equal respect to people is by avoiding acting towards them in a prejudiced manner. Prejudiced means "prior to judgement", this refers to the application of certain categories to people just on the basis of their group membership or identity rather then on characteristics they actually possess.

So for example, you would assume that all blacks are dishonest rather than judging each individual's honesty on their individual merit. This is what is offensive about racism, the fact that people are not judged for what they actually do, but simply for who they are.

So if you understand what "respecting everybody as an equal" actually means you would know there is no incoherence in believing all men (and women) deserve equal respect as human beings and at the same time deplore racist attitutes, what you are condemning there is an unfair attitude and you are perfectly entitled to condemn that. You have exercised your judgement fairly and found you disapprove of a certain attitude and actions, precisely because they fail to repsct others equally.

But you still hold that all persons are equal, even the racist. This is shown by the fact that you still repsect the racists' rights, which they hold in virtue of their humanity. You show equal respect of them as persons, but condemn their attitude as unfair and unreasonable. To think that all persons are equal doesn't mean you have to like everything that they do and think or consider "it" of equal value.
Posted by Schmuck, Sunday, 18 June 2006 8:41:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
One thing I find interesting, people supporting racist attitudes as "natural" tend to think of how they personally feel, that is, more confortable with people similar to themselves (and there is nothing wrong with that in itself) and then extend this to everybody else and suppose they must all feel the same.

Now, I have always found that one of the greatest pleasures in life for me has been to be around people who are different from me, different culture, religion, language or whatever. I really enjoy this experience very much, I find it stimulating and fun and interesting and I learn so much. I don't feel uncorfortable, quite the opposite.

I enjoy the company of people who share my same culture, too, of course, but I would find a fairly homogenous country quite boring frankly. And I know that many people share this same feeling.

So how do we reconcile this?
Posted by Schmuck, Sunday, 18 June 2006 8:56:11 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Shmucky

Racism has a number of faces. According to the dictionary it is

a) Treating people differently (usually negatively) on the basis of their race
b) The belief that your own race is superior and others are inferior.

Clearly 'b' is something all fair minded and educated people should take issue with.

"a" is not so straightforward. Some recent examples of "a" were during the Cronulla events.
1/ Muslim youth were said to feel they are superior to Anglo Aussies and they hated western values.
2/ Fringe but loud groups such as the Patriotic Youth Movement on the Anglo side expressed similar sentiments.

Sadly, most accusations of 'racist'in the media world wide were aimed at the Anglo Aussies with little reference to the causes/background to that particular event.

In Australia we are fortunate to have a blending of English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh among our founding fathers and mothers, along with many Northern Europeans many of whom were able to leave behind the historical 'bruises' enough to intermarry.

The intermarraige is the best thing to remove 'racist' ideas.

But at the same time, we should be encouraging new migrants to intermarry and allow themselves to become absorbed into the new 'Australian' identity, leaving behind tribal, ethnic,religious and historical animosity.

DEATH TO MULTICULTURALISM and all emphasis on 'DIFFERENCE' and 'POLARIZATION'!

At my gym, the owner is Anglo, his wife is Turkish, the manager is Armenian. The Turks committed genocide against Armenians, but here..... we can be a new people.

Staunch and rigid separatist/tribal/ethnic mentalities are doomed to repeat the mistakes and prejudices of 'the old country'.

Shaping a truly homogenous Australian identity should involve ACTIVELY teaching that marraige outside one's community is a good thing. The Lebanese community in particular could learn from this. (refer statistics)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 June 2006 9:38:42 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Schmuky..more.

Having said all that......

I don't mean to suggest we don't have "Italian" or'Chinese' or 'Vietnamese' resturants etc.

I just noticed your comment about a homogonous society being 'boring'.

In contrast to 'boring homogeneity' would you prefer war in the streets ? We had 'your' way in Cronulla.

But you don't have to be a 'full on Chinese Nationalist' to run a good resturant and know how to prepare Chinese food. You can do all that and have a homogenous Australian cultural identity /linkage also.

Why do you have to retain 'ethnically and culturally pure' Chineseness or Greekness or Italianness unless you regard 'Chineseness,Greekness,Italianness' as superior to 'Australian-ness' ?

On balance, I think a homogenous national identity is far more important than competing ethno/cultural groups. Make no mistake, the more we allow emphasis on 'difference' and sub cultures, the more we will see competition for control of resources of every kind BY those communities. (political/employment/welfare) We don't need to look further than the legal, financial and medical areas to see who figure most prominently in them.

I would worry terribly about potential bias, if 6 out of 12 Federal courts judges were Aboriginal and an issue of 'land rights' came before the court......

So, I totally reject the idea that a Greek comes to Australia to remain 'Greek'. As my Texas Instruments applications engineer who is Christian Lebanese, born in Lebanon says "I'm Aussie and my kids are Aussie". Amen and Amen to that !
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 June 2006 9:55:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I worry when I see immigrants arrive here from troubled spots. Watching the news, one sees mostly young men from countries where every quarrel is settled by the gun. I think these youth cut their teeth on a gun and that culture is totally embedded in them. It has taken thousands of years to have bred them to be so aggressive and militant.
Then they come here and are expected to act as we do.
Looking at Palestine where people rioted against their own government, they are a lawless lot. In Timor the same lawlessness, In Indonesia a rabid assasin let out of prison to a red hot welcome.
Yet our politicians allow these raving young men into this country and we are called 'racist' because we know they will make lousy immigrants. We should be able to sue our government for their dumb stupidity.
Posted by mickijo, Sunday, 18 June 2006 2:11:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck wrote "So many of them come onto this debate site with the apparent idea of “I will show these stupid oafs who are the smart ones around here” and they can get very angry and emotional when their ideological thinking is effectively countered by informed opponents."

Redneck, I've yet to read a succinct case from you rationalising and justifying racism. You spend lots of time writing about what you don't like about us anti-racists but nought from you on why you think racism is such a virtuous human condition. This is hardly being ‘informed’,

If anything, you are the emotional reactionary on these pages who feels compelled to defend yourself every time you see yourself reflected in the words and ideas of anti -racists who are busily describing racism and its banalities, its ordinariness, its everyday manifestations.

Indeed I feel you are so overwhelmed that we anti-racists have got such a good handle on you and your thinking. You should not confuse your own implosion with 'us' exploding. But this is what you do over and over again.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 18 June 2006 3:29:42 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
BD, i see you havn't yet realised you're own projections and desires for wanting everyone to be "Ausssie" as code for wanting everyone to be white and christian- just to keep you comfortable with who you think you are. Yawn or what
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 18 June 2006 3:41:51 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Mr-Schmuck.

That is the beauty of high sounding moral declarations, they can mean just about anything that an entrepreneurial, ambulance chasing lawyer can want it to mean.

I see that you have cut and pasted the old “prejudice” argument. Have you ever bothered to think about the reasoning behind your own argument? “Prejudice” literally means “to pre judge”. Everybody, my dear Schmuck, does that all of the time. There is nothing wrong with pre judging people. Are you going to invite the Hells Angels motorcycle gang around to your daughter’s birthday party? No? Well, mate, you just prejudged. It is easy to prejudge groups of people and it is usually very accurate. Most groups make no secret about what cultural values they expect their adherents to uphold, so it usually child’s play to prejudge groups of people on their known cultural values.

I suppose you are going to say that people should not stereotype also, but I got you there too. People think by stereotyping. Think “duck”. What came to mind? A bird with a bill and webbed feet? You just stereotyped. To say “don’t stereotype” or “don’t prejudge” actually means, “don’t think.”

It is interesting, Schmucky, that social regressives like yourself have hit upon a new tactic that works just fine on some people. They tell the public that thinking is evil. Unfortunately, it does not work on me.

I think that black people in general are lazy and not real bright. I base my conclusion on observable reality, and the fact that the apologists for black failure just can’t think up an excuse for black behaviour with a reasoned argument that I can’t drive a bus through.

But I like you. You don’t think that us racists are nasty people, but I would point out that your opinion is in the minority with people who share your humanitarian views. They prejudge and stereotype us rednecks all the time. Not that I mind, of course, provided that the stereotype is accurate, and that the people who say “don’t stereotype” and “don’t prejudge” admit that they do it themselves
Posted by redneck, Sunday, 18 June 2006 5:12:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear mr redneck
You dont seem to be the sort of person who feels they can learn much from people with a different opinion, so I certainly don't want to waste yout time with useless argumentation. But I just wanted to ask you a simple question: who told you I was a Muslim? I am actually a born and raised Catholic.I mean you go and construct this grand classification of all anti-racists and make them neatly fit into your categories without having the slightest idea of who you are actually classifying. I know we all think in stereotypes but its good sometimes to think with facts as well. I am sure that this little fact will not stand in the way of your humble scheme of classifying people in a way that makes you feel you've got them all worked out but I hope you try and be a little more rigorous next time. ghassan
Posted by ghassan, Monday, 19 June 2006 1:00:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck... Mr Ghassan 'gotcha' :)

Dear Ranier,
what you say is partly true. "I want to feel better about who I think I am" yes.. I won't argue with that. But we need to look deeper.

In the sense of Australian Identity, yes, I'd LOVE for all of us to be Christian, but 'white' ? nope... ur quite wrong there. (off-white is nice :)
On the Christian aspect, you have 'projected' there, your own understanding of my understanding of a 'Christian country'.
There is only one kind of true Christian, he or she who has responded with a heartfelt YES to the message of 'Repentance' and 'Belief' in Christ Jesus, Son of God, Messiah, Redeemer. There is no other kind.

So, the most I can hope for and pray for on that level is for the hand of God to work in many hearts. It cannot be legislated, or socialized or enculturated, because it is of the heart, internal which then translates to the external behavior.
If sufficient people are saved, renewed, born again, then their vote will have more impact on the type of laws and spiritual flavor of our culture. No one who believes in democracy can argue with this.

The fact that I am:
a) White
b) Christian
c) Of Anglo/Scottish Heritage

is simply a biological and demographic fact. Demography always must be taken into account in the shaping of a culture and values.

The Australia I long to see, is one where we are more blended, less emphasis on ethnicity, yet upholding the best from the cultural roots of our founding fathers and mothers, which are unquestionably 'English' in language, but 'Australian' in outlook, and including as far as possible the indigenous inhabitants.
I would rather see assimilation than separation. Just as it happened to the Vikings/Celts/Angles/Saxons/Scotts/Jutes who made up Britain. Good for us, good for u. Why r u more special ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 19 June 2006 2:41:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I appreciated this article.
To Coach:
As a non Muslim living in an Islamic country I've been welcomed by local people. I don't fear less here that I will be murdered or raped. I certainly don't feel a pressure to convert to Islam or be killed if I don't. In fact the suggestion sounds very Hollywoodish. Qatar, Dubai, Oman, vast areas of Asia and India are at least as safe as parts of the US and UK and Australia.
Generalisations can cause great harm. Irrationality - the road to insanity - characterises extreme forms of racism and is a companion to more common dinner table racial banter.
We need to check ourselves whenever we say 'all' or 'those'. Stating that all moslems or followers of Islam are terrorists is as irrational as stating that all christians are members of the klu klux klan or soldiers who perform sexual torture.

People have many different roles in life and the good kindly grandfather/mother may be a torturer. Equally they may be the person who claims not to 'see' the trains carrying the shoes and hair of murdered children.
I think the former should be accountable for their crimes. Also, one cognitive technique to prevent insanity is to challenge irrational statements and they need to be countered in every conversaton. Those of us who sit by and let it go because the person seems nice and friendly are contributing to a dangerous continuum.
People who are willing to be immersed in other cultures - who face the fear and take the risks - often have extremely valuable experiences. The divides are not usually as great as we imagine and we may experience some understanding. When we do merge we often find we have the same problems with extremists and the same daily difficulties with intolerance. Our needs are similar. We wash our clothes and our bodies, we pray or not, we weep, we laugh, we win/lose, we grieve, we breed or share in the love of children. Such common ground could bear the fruit of harmony.
Posted by dinkum, Monday, 19 June 2006 3:12:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"the cultural roots of our founding fathers and mothers, which are unquestionably 'English' in language"

BD, you advocate white supremacy without even knowing that this is exactly what you are advocating.

Question: who invented white people?
Answer: white people
Why? This is what Ghassan in part, is asking you all to consider.
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 19 June 2006 4:13:57 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Rainier

Since when were you ever an “anti racist”, Rainier? You are just as big a racist as I am.

Your oft stated primary goal on this site is to defend and expand the interests of “my people”. When you say “my people” you do not mean the Australian people, or for that matter the Afghan, Iraqi or Chinese people, you mean the aboriginal people.

You see your identity totally in terms of race, yet you have the effrontery to get all pious and superior when you opponents do exactly the same thing. “My people”, Rainier, are the Australian people. By that I mean the North European Protestant people and the aboriginal people. And, because I am less racist than you Rainier, I will also accept as “my people” those people from unrelated foreign cultures who have assimilated into my culture and who know how to behave themselves.

You and I are both racists Rainier, because you and I both believe in racial discrimination. You see nothing wrong with aboriginal people getting special privileges denied other races purely on the basis of their race. And because I understand the reason for this blatant racism, I largely agree with you and condone it myself.

You promote the interests of “your people” Rainier, and I promote the interests of mine.

So, what is the big difference between you and me, Rainier, other than your hypocrisy?

To Ghassan.

I deduced you were a Muslim from your Arab name. Such a deduction is a reasonable assumption. If your name had been O'Flannery, I would not have considered you a Chinese.

I had a few more stereotypes for anti racists, Ghassan, but I only get 350 words. One of them is for those who are the adherents of a multinational religious organisation who's absolute monarch resides in Rome, and who has for centuries attempted to forment rebellion and dissention in those countries ruled by the English Protestant sovereign.

Still at it, I see?
Posted by redneck, Monday, 19 June 2006 4:55:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck wrote : "My people”, Rainier, are the Australia people."

Sounds a touch emotional that! You're not getting angy are you?

Do you mean all Australian citizens or just those you choose to recognise?

Hangon - Are you saying that you know every real Australian there is? Wow!

Tell me, what do these real Australians look like, wear, eat? What is his/her profession, vocation, likes and dislikes?

Or do these people look and think just like you?
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 19 June 2006 5:41:52 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
dinkum,

You seem to be a reasonable person with commendable humanising principles. Ultimately, we all want to live in harmony, safety, and peace. But unfortunately this is possible. As long as there are elements in our world who consider religious ideologies above any other human values; we will continue to witness atrocities in the name of “xyz” religion, god or phylosophy.

Statements like: “Qatar, Dubai, Oman, vast areas of Asia and India are at least as safe as parts of the US and UK and Australia” tell me that

1. you too are conveniently generalising to make your point
2. you are not aware of the real threat caused by global Islam
3. you could well be living in an insulated “hollywoodish” environment
4. you mistake relative “safety” for absence of potential violence
5. you confuse nice people with their true beliefs

Past mistakes should not be an outlet to point the finger (and generalise); instead we must learn from the past and become wiser and more prudent than our fore-parents.

You are absolutely right in saying we have more in common than what divides us. True but soooo dangerous when the small bits that divide us can ultimately wipe us all out too.

Generalisation is deemed “irrational only if it’s not true. I don’t know how much you know about Islamic historical colonialism and actual world Islamisation; but I can assure you it is both dangerous and very “rational” in the islamic psyche. One has only have to read their Qur’an/ Hadith, visit European capitals, or just watch the evening news, … to realise how distorted their views of humanity is and their determination to conquer in the name of Allah.

The multitude of adherents of such a political religion are the victims and captives of this evil phenomenon. They are the nice people you and I interact with daily in the market place and over the backyard fence. The majority of migrants have escaped their oppressive religious countries – but are still umbilically connected to their destructive religion.

I would like to discuss this further – please comment
Posted by coach, Monday, 19 June 2006 6:31:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is a sad reality that rascial prejudice is a a quality we all possess, but sadder still is the fact that Australian politicians utilise this for there own electoral advantage.
Posted by Tieran, Monday, 19 June 2006 9:34:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
No Rainier, I am not angry at all. Just a bit indignant at your self evident hypocrisy, which I see you did not respond to, or seek to justify.

The people I consider are “Australians” are the ones I choose to recognize. So, how many white people do you recognize as “aboriginal”, Rainier? Tell me, if you claim that the instant an Afghan sticks his big toe on Australian soil, he is just as much an Australian as I am, then since you selectively oppose racism, I would point out that the same logic means that the Afghan is just as much an “aboriginal” as you are.

To be “anti racist”, my dear Rainier, you have to be race blind. Since your position is to only promote the interests of aboriginals, that hardly applies to you.

Your position is a contradiction, Rainier, and I like to amuse myself finding novel ways to point that out.
Posted by redneck, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 4:50:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ranier :) this is precious.... you telling me I'm a 'white supremacist'.... and then referring to 'your people' ..... Hi5 to Redneck for pointing that out.

Rainer..*shake shake shake*....I'm not 'supremacist' in the QUALITATIVE sense ok, we are no better or worse inherrantly than indigenous people... have u got that message once and for all ?

I'm supremacist in the 'practical' sense.. looking at England, and just about any place you care to name, invaders have come, and the invaded accomodated, intermarried, mixed, were absorbed.
My forefathers on mums side came from KENT,
Here is a brief historical outline of what went on there
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsBritain/EnglandKent.htm

The same thing has happened to indigenous Australia mate.. sad...but true. Just as it was sad for all the various people overwhelmed by superior force in times gone by in Kent and other places in England.

To be honest, the vibes coming from the indigenous 'industry' of which you seem a vital part, are that there is something exceptionally holy and 'above all else' in Aboriginal culture, somehow more special than every other culture which has been overcome by greater forces and numbers.

It's not racism its REALITY.

Is it more special to be 100% Aboriginal Australian as opposed to a 5% Aboriginal ? How do you value the white or non Aboriginal part of mixed race people ? do you look down on those of mixed race ? Do you have some 'purity criteria' where you assess the worth of a person on the basis of their percentage of Aboriginality ? I'd guess that you yourself are mixed, but of course, I could be wrong.

I've argued in the past for the preservation of as much Indigenous culture and land as possible, but you BITE me everytime I do, so I'm now exploring the alternative. ABSORPTION and ASSIMILATION.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 5:25:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
coach, "Ultimately, we all want to live in harmony, safety, and peace. But unfortunately this is possible."

Sad that you consider it is unfortunate that it is possible to live in harmony, safety and peace. Also sad that you are doing your bit to try and stop that happening by your continual biased commentary on another faith (and if Islam was not there it would be something else - humanism, new age, buddism etc).

Yes it is possible to live for the most part in harmony, safety and peace but while we have extremism such as yours present it seems unlikely.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 7:44:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
R0bert,

Sorry misspelling: I meant IMPOSSIBLE and not ‘possible’. So I hope that clarifies my meaning there:

"Ultimately, we all want to live in harmony, safety, and peace. But unfortunately this is IMpossible."

My continual “bias” on Islam is not just a hobby of mine to attack another faith. I made plenty clear that other faiths (and non-faiths) are benign when it comes to political colonialism.

My obsession with Islam is the result of first hand experience, critical observation and study of this one-minded (false) religion with the sole objective to conquer the world for Allah.

I have but pity and compassion for its followers. If my tone is harsh and critical sometimes it’s because I really care for these lost souls. They need to be shaken into reality.

But more importantly I care for Australia in particular. I think we still have a chance to slow down, or contain this malaise before it’s too late
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 8:38:58 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks for a great article Ghassen.

What you have written is very simple, even naive, and it's a pity such simple points need to be made - but they do.
Posted by Nicholas Gruen, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 1:31:18 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
coach, I thought that was the case but it was to good to pass up. Freudian slip maybe :)

I do believe though that the approach taken by yourself and others decreases the likelyhood of peace. You might check your version of the "Sermon on the Mount" (Matthew 5:9 in the New Testament), my copy says "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God". I think that is a fairly generally accepted translation. Sometimes peacemaking requires fighting but we are a long way from that yet on this forum.

As for Islam being a special case I remember times when spiritualism was the big threat and another period when it was New Age teaching. Older heads remember times when it was Catholics or Protestants (depending on which you were). If you do have a special case with Islam it is hidden by those who have gone before you crying wolf and by your own contributions to the conflict. Time for a different approach, at the moment only those who already agree with you are likely to pay attention to your warnings.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 7:24:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
do you guys HAVE to convert every OLO discussion into yet another nauseating discussion about Islam? We’ve read it all this dribble from you before…please! I can truly understand if Allah strikes you down for simply being boring old incontinent old farts.
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 10:50:46 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ranier,
I challenged you to re-think the issues .... all you do is whine about some anti Islam crusade... the topic is.....

RACISM...

So, can you not waste posts on peripherals... if u don't say anything maybe the crusade will go away by itself ?

I'm advocating assimilation currently, you might have some thoughts in response to my last post ? After all, it was directed towards you.

cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 4:36:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yoo Hoo, Rainier. You picked a fight with me and now you have gone walkabout. I take it that I have landed a few punches that have rocked you?

Damn, your a slippery character.

I fing it funny that you challenged me to a formal OLO debate on another related topic, but you only lasted two rounds with me on this one.

I've got you, haven't I? You are beginning to understand that your position is a contradiction. You can't pretend to be anti racist while overtly promoting the interests of one race and defending racial discrimination that benefits that race.

I learned a long time ago, Rainier, that when people use high moral ideals to base their arguments upon, it is usually a cover for their own self interest. My advice to you is to drop this whole "anti racism" approach. Since you are probably more racist than I am, you probably wish that Hassan Gage would jump on the next plane home, and that David Boaz and I would accompany him.

Your arguments might impress high school level debaters like RObert, SneakyPeter and Coach, or they might work with university students who ability to think straight has been corroded by the debilitating effects of studying for an Artz degree, but they don't work on people who have not lived cloistered lives.
Posted by redneck, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 4:56:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck,

I have looked up and pasted in definitions of "prejudice" and "stereotype" on the oxford english dictionary. If you check the exact meanings you may want to reconsider your affirmation that we "think" by stereotyping and prejudging, unless you also mean to say we necessarely think by oversimplification, preconception and without reference to reason or experience...

I mean, I am sure you are right we often do do that, after all we are only human, but hopefully we may want to try and do a bit better especially when considering things as important as how to relate to other human beings. I tend yo think we owe it to them.

We think through "concepts", mate, not prejudice and stereotypes, although I admit they may be useful shortcuts when we need to make quick judgemnts without much infortmation, but surely when you are judging your fellow humans, especially when you judge them negatively as you do blacks in your post, you owe it to them to apply considered and informed judgement not lazy thinking such as prejudice and stereotype.

prejudice

• noun 1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience. 2 unjust behaviour formed on such a basis. 3 chiefly Law harm that may result from some action or judgement.

stereotype

• noun 1 a preconceived and over-simplified idea of the characteristics which typify a person or thing
Posted by Schmuck, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 7:43:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck boasted of " landed a few punches that have rocked you"

wow redneck, you’re most definitely OLO's 45 kilogram self professed heavy weight champion of the world of racism. You’re so fast I didn't even see you move in those punches! - (perhaps its because you actually didn't move a millimetre)Keep shadow boxing your own xenophobic fears mate, one day you'll score a big knockout - on yourself.

By the way Champ, my Arts students (all 100+ of them) have all read your posts (I put them in a powerpoint show) and [besides rolling around on the lecture room floor laughing at your ridiculous ideas] all agreed that you were your own worst enemy. The big message they have for you is simple but poignant “Grow up and learn to love yourself and others".

Boaz D, As arduous as it is for me, you'll be happy to know that I am putting together a response to your last post. Conducting deprogramming psychotherapy online for ex-missionaries still looking for a lost tribe to save in the name Jesus is not my thang but I’ll give it a shot.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 10:32:24 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ghassan you write, “In terms of world history it is the racism of the majority, not that of the minorities, that has led to the most evil racist situations known to us: slavery, apartheid and the Holocaust.”, but wasn’t apartheid the racism of the white minority – albeit an extremely powerful minority?
Posted by Pedant, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 1:37:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“Just because a dog is born in a stable doesn’t make it a horse”.

I think that’s what most of you are trying to say.

I heard all this sort of stuff from Enoch Powell back in the sixties.

I think some of you would be more at home at Stormfront.org or browsing through Yggdrasil’s Library.

You will find lots of interesting resources and like-minded people there to reinforce your beliefs.

You may have to substitute other racial groups as required but the sentiment is always the same. Whenever compassion, humanity or self-doubt rear their ugly heads, rush to those sites for a quick top-up of your own personal reality.

It will be like looking into a mirror.

I hope you like what you see.
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 3:07:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Mr Schmuck.

Human beings think by categorising concepts. Stereotyping is a form of categorisation. To say “don’t stereotype” means exactly the same as “don’t think. “

Human beings do not think by prejudging, its just that everybody does it. For example, please note that Mr Ghassam Hage has written an article denouncing prejudging, then he posted a reply to me in which he said “You don’t seem to be the sort of person who feels they can learn much from people with a different opinion,”

That is a prejudgement. Checkmate.

Look mate, George Orwell once wrote that intellectuals espouse through mindless slogans which they do not have a clue what they really mean. Some anti racist celebrity just says “stereotyping and prejudging is absolutely awful and verboten”, then people like you say, “It is? Oh, OK. I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds authoritative, so I will use it myself.” But you never think about what the slogan actually means.

I have been bashing lefties for a few years on these debate sites and I earnestly assure you that I have come across some pretty radical ones. They all try this “stereotyping and prejudging is evil” crap on me, and I always get them in the end. Because sooner or later, they do it themselves. They have to, because they are human. You see, Mr Schmuck, that is the biggest problem with you trendy lefty approach to human relations, it depends entirely upon the entire human race acting like programmable logic robots instead of human beings.

But if you don’t believe me, then please keep it up. I absolutely guarantee you that I will get you too eventually. Because everybody stereotypes in order to think, and everybody prejudges.

My final example is the recent post submitted by Mr Rache. I guarantee you that if I did not point out that his post too is a prejudgement of "racists", it would never have entered your head that it is.
Posted by redneck, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 6:39:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
RObert,

>>I do believe though that the approach taken by yourself and others decreases the likelyhood of peace.<<

1. Can you describe what you mean by "peace"?

2. Is that an admittance on your part that there is actually a war?

3. How can you have “peace” with an enemy that sole desire is to eradicate anything that is not equivalent to their cultural way?

4. What aspect of islam are you not clear upon?

5. How much more proof do you need to start doubting your instincts?

6. Are you just happy to play the terrorist ..err… islamic advocate on OLO?
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 8:37:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ranier
I'm feeling left out mate.... you didn't say you posted 'my' posts for your arts students to view. Please do so and then invite them to respond HERE, and we can make a genuine contribution to human understanding of important issues together.

Lost Tribe ? My Bible says "All" have sinned..... including me and including you. All are in need of forgiveness and Grace.

Please take the time to address the questions in my last post if you don't mind, because that would help in understanding you.

If 'your' Arts students are all of one mind, and viewing Redneck as his own worst enemy, then urge them to engage on the issue. If we didn't have Rednecks rather firm views on such things, how would be contrast our own position with clarity ?

Regarding your Arts Students again.. I CHALLENGE THEM to engage here and to actually submit their own views (or are they 'your' views ?) to the scrutiny of the market place of ideas.

I suspect most of them have about as much clue of reality where they have to depend on themselves as Paris Hilton does about money. (Now there...that should wrankle a few :)

Is it possible your arts students are just happy wallowing in the mire of having their own unchallenged ideas simply re-inforced by the chirpings and mutterings of those who share those views ?

So.. you students.. come on now.. open up those thinking caps and see how you all go with thinking adults who have been around.

In our cases, we have 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt' in your case, is it just 'We read/are told about it' ?

Ranier.. don't forget to indicate how you view the 'white' portion of mixed race Indigenous/white Australians. Superior, Inferior or equal.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 22 June 2006 6:40:42 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
coach, clearly there is a war between extremist muslims and the rest of us (including moderate muslims). Most of the terrorist victims are muslim.

You appear to be determined to create a situation where moderates feel they can never have a place with us in opposing the extremists. If you and like minded individuals are sucessfull then we end up with more extremist muslims, if anything the terrorist advocate here is more likely to be yourself by result rather than intent.

I don't particularly like any religious extremism including your own. It represents something that is far from the teachings of the one you claim to follow. Your approach is focussed on creating division where none need exist and spreading your message of hate. Thankfully most christains are not like that.

I'm away for a couple of weeks so I'm unlikely to be able to respond to any further posts on these threads.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 22 June 2006 8:54:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
RObert,

please comment:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1121wmv&ak=null
Posted by coach, Thursday, 22 June 2006 9:11:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Rainier.

I was absolutely fascinated by your last post, my dear Rainier.

My last two posts directed at your good self, simply pointed out the fundamental contradiction in your stated position. To whit, that you claim to be anti racist, while at the same time openly being an advocate for “my people”, and also promoting aboriginal self interest through racial discrimination.

I was wondering how you were going to squirm out of that one. Well, now I know.

Instead of addressing the topic under discussion, you took off in a different direction. You then chucked a large and very smelly red herring behind you that was calculated to bruise my self esteem. This you hoped would spark an emotional reaction from me, and get the wolf running after you, away from the direction you most earnestly did not want him to go.

But this little wolf can not only smell red herrings, he can smell blood too, and he knows when he has his quarry wounded and cornered.

So, I insist upon you explaining the obvious contradiction of your position.

The second most interesting part of your reply was that you said that you were some sort of Artz teacher.

Hmmmm.

You are not really Steven Hagan, using a non de plume, are you? Steven Hagan promotes himself as some sort of university “lecturer” in a “make work” university sheltered workshop, where the only job prerequisites are presumably “aboriginality”, a talent for verbally bashing whitey, and a bad attitude.

If you are Steven Hagan, could I point out that it could be considered a reasonable assumption that your opinions might be coloured by your pecuniary interests? And that would also be an excellent explanation as to why you are doing mental gymnastics trying to dodge answering a simple, direct question.

I will bet that this is one post that you will not show to your wide eyed and gullible students.

Oops, sorry Mr Schmuck. I am prejudging again.
Posted by redneck, Thursday, 22 June 2006 4:59:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yoo Hooooooooooooooo. Rainierrrrrrrr. Where arrrrrrrrrre youuuuuuuuuu?

Cmon, mate. here's your big chance to show your 100+ students how smart you are and how dumb redneck racists are. If you are too frightened to cross pens with me, how about pushing your star pupil forward as your champion? You reckon that they laugh at my posts, well they should not have too much trouble with me, eh?

Or are you worried that they might still have the vestiges of a thinking brain, despite their brains being inoculated to reasoned thought, which was caused by being the victims of an "outcomes based" education system?

Well, you are right to be worried. You see, Rainier (Stephen?, you are now the Conservative trying to prop up the failed status quo ante. While I am the heretic who questions the prevailing orthodoxy. Artz students are rebels by nature (stereotyping?) and they just might find my anti establishment sermons to be appealing to their anti everything philosophies.

As old Bob used to sing. "The times, they are, a changin"
Posted by redneck, Friday, 23 June 2006 4:48:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well I predicted and knew that paying you more attention that you deserve would have you salivating with childish excitement.

First to defend my students: Most are doing double degrees/cross disciple (science, medicine, etcetera) so they can hardly be stereotyped as Artz student as you have. More importantly they all possess a capacity to reflect, think and learn. One day you too may learn these simple human abilities.

Secondly to defend my mate Stephen Hagan: Steve is imminently qualified to do his job. He is highly qualified academic (and soon to complete Phd. Student) who has published widely and been a community leader of renown. He is also very talented higher education teacher.

Lastly, I just want to say that if attacking me provides you with endless childish amusement then go for you life. It only confirms to me that in real life you are just a cowardly, insecure scared little man. I'd love to see what your reaction would be if you met me in the flesh. But I know that an invitation to meet would be declined.

You just wouldn't have the bottle would you?

It’s far easier to be a tough guy here online isn't it?

But if you want to really like to meet me - let OLO admin know and we can exchange some real life addresses. The ball is in your court.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 23 June 2006 6:26:34 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“In a controversy, the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for truth and have begun striving for ourselves”
Abraham J. Heschel quotes (Jewish theologian and philosopher, 1907-1972)

There is nothing more galling to angry people than the coolness of those on whom they wish to vent their spleen. ~Alexandre Dumas
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 24 June 2006 1:15:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oooooh, look, Schmucky! Rainier is prejudging me. You should now give him a smack for doing PC verboten things. But I doubt if you will. I have noticed that the politically exquisite develop an extreme case of myopia when one of their own violates the moral codes which they demand their opponents abide by.

To-Rainier

You just won’t answer that question, will you? It must be excruciatingly embarrassing to have to pretend that you have forgotten the question that you most earnestly do not want to answer. Because if you did, you know you would be exposed as a hypocrite who uses high sounding moral arguments against racism, to justify your own racism.

I want every little trendoid on this OLO site to see you as you really are. I want them to comprehend that they are being used by people like you, who use their high ideals to con them into fighting for other agendas, that are the exact opposite to that which the young idealists think that they are fighting for. Unless you can give a credible explanation of the obvious contradiction in your stated position, you stand exposed as a black racist who simply hates white people, and who uses “anti racism” as a cover for your true agenda. I would ask Scout, Schmucky, SneakyPeter and all the rest of you naïve young people, given Rainier’s obvious ducking and weaving, do you really trust that people like Rainier, Ghassam Hage or Stephen-Hagan are really promoting the noble causes that you think they are? Or is it beginning to percolate down through those previously impermeable skulls of yours, that you are being used?

Once again, Rainier, you seem to want to know my identity. But that is not going to happen, mate. I have a funny feeling that the reason you want to know who I am is because I am an effective enemy to your cause of promoting black racism. If you knew who I was, I will bet I will get a writ from some taxpayer cashed up “aboriginal” legal aid service to shut me up
Posted by redneck, Saturday, 24 June 2006 5:02:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ranier
hey I'll meet up with you some time.. email me and we can tee it up.
jdrmot@tpg.com.au just give your mobile number and I'll give u a call.

I'm probably coming to Sydney in the not too distant future.

I'd consider a coffee and chat a delight. Bring along a couple of students also :)

Don't worry, I'm more bark than bite, and while I'm passionate about issues, I thoroughly enjoy human interaction with thinking people.

You still haven't responded to my other post that I can see, don't take all the time responding to Reddy, you know his position already.
Just answer his question and move on for crying out loud.

In the mean time, keep up the good work. Your interaction is always appreciated even if not agreed with.
cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 June 2006 6:07:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Boaz D, that would be good, i'll drop you a line.

Oh come come on Redneck, write to OLO admin. They have my name and address ready for you. Don't worry about travel, I'll come and see you, anywhere, anytime. It would be my pleasure.

You're not scared of me are you? I'm a nice bloke, no criminal record, peaceful and non-violent. I just want to meet you and see what you look like, hear what you have to say and move on.

Are you so petrified to meet a black fella? If so that's not very Australian is it?
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 24 June 2006 5:28:32 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Rainier.

You can meet me right here on this site, mate. Your obvious lack of integrity during this particular debate does not inspire trust in your personal ethics.

I'll bet you are glad that you and I did not have that formal debate? I managed to get you ducking and weaving on this topic in only 4 or 5 posts. Were you going to get your Artz class to watch the debate and see Rainier do over a redneck? Well, you sure had a narrow escape if you were going to do that.

I have not bothered to reply to your many interjections during debates on other topics because I do not consider your work up to standard. Most of the time you just do "hit and runs", interjecting with sarcastic remarks and what is called "rhetoric". "Rhetoric" are statements which tell people what to think, instead of telling them why they should think that way.

But in any case, I now have you pretty well where I want you, and if you try to get in my face again on another topic, I will simply ask you to explain the obvious contradiction in your own stated position again. Since you can't do that without exposing your own self interest, I think that you will look for an easier target than me.

That, of course, depends upon how smart you are.
Posted by redneck, Sunday, 25 June 2006 5:51:24 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Reddy
I have to confess I detect a bit of 'ducking and weaving' in your corner now :) why not meet Ranier ? I'm happy to do so.
Neutral ground, safety in numbers at Macca's or something in a Mall,... what's to be afraid of ? (grow a big beard b4 u do for 'identity camoflage' :)

Rainer does not strike me as threatening in any way at all, just pig headed :) sorry R, nothing personal.

This is a worthwhile discussion, and I'm just glad that we are able to have it.
I think you should be more prepared to reach out to your debating opponents beyond OLO.

Hope everyone's weekend is going well, my son (18) scored TWO GOALS at Soccer yesterday "Dat's ma boy" which made up for the travel distance to Heidleberg from the Outer East. His team includes a Jamaican dude, some 'wogs' and his mixed self. Very multi cultural, but mostly 'white scum' like me :)

In fact, the other team had blokes as old as FIFTY TWO on it... though most of them were late teens/early20s. I'm going to sign mySELF up soon :)

I had a sticky beak at a house being built. ARRRRGH.. the bloke who did the slab must be brain damaged. One load bearing wall has the bottom plate sticking out OVER the edge of the slab by 70% of its width...into thin air ! Council will NOT be pleased. The builder's sign said

"Another house by Green*_*s Builders, we go on 'reputation'"

whereupon reading that I almost choked.

Final thought.

Race does not determine intelligence or proclivity to crime.... culture and history do. Oppressed minorities would be less likely to respect the law of 'invaders'. The racial factor is purely coincidental. If their oppression includes less access to education, you might falsely take this to indicate lower intelligence.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 25 June 2006 3:55:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck, you give yourself lots of credit for a debate that really has not happened or been resolved.

WHY IS THIS SO?

Well part of the reason is because you haven’t really challenged me to explain anything other than your own racisms.(ie, the bleeding obvious) They don't belong to me, its your baggage, and so its not my place to provide explanations on why your can't see this to be the case.

I can only say this. You're a confused bitter lonely little man with an ordinary kind of intellect that clearly frustrates you no end. Couple this with being barely literate [and obviously not well read] and you end up with ‘redneck’ online luddite write large, who fails to even comprehend how embarrassing he is to others.

Is OLO your only social interaction?

Do you have any friends at all?

That you can’t understand why you are a blind racist is not my problem. It’s yours. Do the world a favour - grow up, get a real life and deal with it. We are all waiting for you to join us.
Being an anti racist is much more fun and your get to meet all sorts of wonderful people.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 25 June 2006 5:06:40 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To David Boaz.

I have no wish to meet any of the people I debate with on any debate site. That even goes for people who share my views. Subject closed.

You have made a statement “Race does not determine intelligence or proclivity to crime.... culture and history do.”

The first thing I would point out is that your statement is simply rhetoric. It is not supported by any argument which indicates why people should accept your view. For you to make such a statement, you must support it with some sort of evidence, either direct, indirect or circumstantial. The more that people can accept your evidence because they can confirm it from what they know is true, or what they divine is probably true, the more likely they will be to accept your statement. But simply making unsupported declarations is hardly likely to convince anyone, especially somebody who has good reason to think the opposite.

If you accept that breeds of dogs exist with different physical characteristics and different temperaments common to their breeds, how is it you will not accept that the same COULD apply to human beings? Especially when everyday reality clearly displays that some human ethnicities are most definitely far more prone to serious criminal behaviour than others? Is your conviction simply another article of faith?
Posted by redneck, Sunday, 25 June 2006 5:15:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
No Redneck, you provide the evidence (scientific and validated) that white people are the most intelligent humans in this world.

I've asked you to provide this evidence before and you failed to comply.

Now why don't you get to it and do some research at your local university library. Beware that you might have to browse the books with Arts students and lecturers and academic researchers
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 26 June 2006 9:58:40 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rainer, Boaz,Redneck et el,

I am white European and a very naughty boy to boot, and according to the racists, I am a "bloody idiot."

Ye Gods. You lot would drive a person to drink, especially, you Boaz.

I'm sitting in me local now. Come on down and I'll go to water.

Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!

What do mean ya' want me to put me lap top away in da' bar!

Free world, thus pubs is free, stuff ya' ambiance and mood its a f*king pub for Christ's sake.

Can I p-l-e-a-s-e have a Guinness and some crisps and make sure its St. James. Come on Paddy - be fair.

What's that Paddy you say: "Just stop your whining Ranc. The new girl will be wiv' ya in a tick."

Boaz, pray for a couple a Guinness for Rancitas et el. Ya' turned me ta' drink - so, as you got God in your corner, get him to send me two pints and packet. Why is everything so difficult? I jus' wanna a couple of brews. It's me white blood.

Oh God why won't someone listen to me?

Oh God why won't someone serve me?

TWO GUINESS AND SOME CHIPS DOWN HERE P-L-E-A-S-E!

When the barmaid isn't listening and you need a drink and there is a hearse waiting in the drivethrough, you know you died of thirst whilst waiting for a redneck barmaid (Jobsearch client?) to drop a Guinness down your way.

Here she comes. At last. I am positively salivating now. Thank God for me will ya' Boaz.

What did the barmaid say CyberRainer? "Can't you read the sign. No blacks, no Irish and no dogs."

Paddy - the new girl won't serve me.

What you saying to Rancitas: "Put ya' lap top away."

You put ya' stupid sign away and serve me first.

There you go girls we already met.
Posted by rancitas, Monday, 26 June 2006 2:21:13 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I always enjoy amateur comedy; it reminds me of those 'come one, come all' TV talent shows we don't see anymore - where some joker who got a few laughs down at the local takes this to be a sign from GOD that he/she should go for bigger and better things in showbiz, but alas, its not meant to be.

I didn’t laugh once, I tried to, but it just wouldn’t come.
Oh well. :(
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 26 June 2006 5:28:29 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Back again for some more lumps, Rainier?

I was not going to bother wasting another post on you, but since David Boaz is a bit slow in replying to my last post,I guess I am not losing anything.

I sure hope your Artz students are reading this.

The premise is, is the white race superior to all others?

That depends upon how you define "superior", but I think most people would agree that intelligence is most definitely a factor on perceived notions of superiority. The only direct evidence I have is from the book "The Bell Curve" that indicates that, according to IQ tests administered over fifty years in the USA, African Americans have a most common IQ of 85, whites 103, and Asians 106. Since I agree that this is probably right, I must be an "Asian Supremacist."

Now, if you believe that all races are equal in every possible way, then where is YOUR scientific evidence to back up your own claim?

But I know exactly what you will do. You will, once again, ignore any question put to you that you do not want to answer.

Any impartial observer who is reading this debate would conclude that I at least answer questions while you will never answer any question, even questions put to you, over and over again. They would therefore conclude that I am debating honestly while you, Rainier, is simply playing the role of Grand Inquisitor, dishonestly demanding your opponent do all the work while you submit nothing.

But the most laughable part of your position is that once again, you are pretending to be non racist. But you and I both know that you are just as racist as I am am, probably more. That is why you have consistently refused to answer the critical question of how do you reconcile the obvious contradiction in your own stated position?

You can not claim to be non racist if you proudly proclaim that you are an advocate for "my people" and support racial discrimination that aids their self interest.
Posted by redneck, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 5:00:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Reddy
I'll give it a go.

Ok.. 2 points.

1/ My "Statement" could be described as rhetoric I suppose. I didn't think it needed specific evidence for the self evident. Anyway, one problem with your argument is your use of the term 'crime'. Crime is relative to the existing legal framework. You will find that the people groups you desire to cocoon in the 'Higher proclivity to crime' mob are most likely very law abiding among their own group. A notable exception currently is the problems in some Indigenous communities, but I blame not 'genes' but booze,porn and historical issues.(all from we WHITEYS)

I've seen this in Borneo, where one tribe is described as 'militant, arrogant, war like' (Iban/Dayaks) and another 'humble, quiet,docile and friendly' like the Punan nomads. The Kelabits are 'outgoing, generous,hospitable' but their linguistic cousins the Lun Bawang are the same in every respect except 'outgoing', they are more quiet and reserved.

The problem comes when you put a Punan child with an Iban/Dayak family for upbringing. He will manifest the same 'warrior,arrogant' etc personality as his adopted family, and vice versa.

2/ Dog Breeds. Yes, you do have a point there, I won't deny it. Different breeds have different temperements. Pitbulls are rather vicious and Labradors are passive. I wonder what would be the result if a Pitbull pup was raised by a Labrador mummy :) ?

So, was it 'breeding/genes' or was it 'Maternal bonding/imitation/and observation/copying of the child, or pup which produced the personality ?

I honestly don't know.

My main 'evidence' for the problem with your 'genetic' theory is that I've seen Phds from various tribal backgrounds, have been simply humbled, even intimidated at times, at the awe inspiring intelligence of some illiterate people of darker/asian race.

Again.. if you left out the 'crime' aspect your argument would be stronger, but still not acceptable.
I come down on the side of 'culture/upbringing/History' in the human realm as being the determinative factors in behavior.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 11:04:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well, Ghassan, you must be enjoying having your every point so beautifully illustrated in the posts above.
Here are a few of my pre-judgements and stereotypings; we are all racist and sexist and ageist and classist. We go around making judgements about the people we see all the time. trouble is, when we actually get to know the people we've judged we often find out we were completely wrong. Some people, some of the time are able to reflect on that and, as they grow older and more experienced, may become a little more cautious about judging on appearances - which may include, race, gender, age, accent and dress. The wisest and most admirable people I've ever met (some of whom I judged erroneously before I got to know them) are very slow to pass judgement on others, preferring to assume the best about people until they are proved wrong, or, as most usually happens, proved right.
I have always told my daughters that what you give out to the world is what you'll get back. In other words, if you go around with as open and accepting and optimistic frame of mind as you can manage, that is how the world will mostly react to you. If you go around with a narrow, suspicious, anxious, judgemental frame of mind, well, that's just the reaction you'll get back. If you assume others are inferior, they'll think the same of you. If you think others are dangerous or stupid or out for what they can get, that's what they'll think of you.
most people, I've found, are good people, wherever they come from and whatever their background. i couldn't give a rats about their IQ.
Posted by ena, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 3:41:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well, I do take exception to your implication that it is “self evident” that all races are equal. Too many of my opponents think the same way, but the onus is just as much upon them as it is upon me to validate their opinion.

Your premise that those whom I consider prone to criminal behaviour are law abiding within their own group does not really hold water. The largest group of victims of aboriginal violence is aboriginal women and children. People associated with the US KKK kill one or two negroes every year, but tens of thousands of US negroes are murdered by other negroes every year. Here in Oz, some immigrant group criminals (Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean) choose their victims almost entirely within their own ethnic group. The exception would be Arab Muslims, who, according to Detective Sergeant Time Priest, prefer their victims outside of their own cultural and racial group.

You and I both agree that culture is the most important factor in understanding human behaviour. And I would agree that a naturally violent person or a Pit Bull terrier, raised by loving families who instilled passive virtues in either, may indeed influence the development of the personality enough to give the dog or man the emotional maturity and strength to overcome their natural inclinations. But will you not acknowledge that the converse is also true?

If we as a society, expose young men who are not real bright, are naturally violent, impulsive, impatient, with little empathy for others, and who have little self control, to a culture glorifying violence against women, a sneering contempt for all authority, a glamourising of illegal substance abuse,, and the glorification of spectacular criminal, thrill seeking behaviour, then we are sowing the wind. What I am saying is that those young men genetically more prone to criminal behaviour than others, are more likely to engage in this behaviour if exposed to the same culture which smarter young men may consider is simply harmless entertainment.
Posted by redneck, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 5:23:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear redneck
Is the last para of your last post a polemic against US television programs being broadcast on free to air television in Australia? Or, am I misreading the culture being indicated?
odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Thursday, 29 June 2006 12:24:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yes, Mr Odsoc.

My premise is that the spiralling rates of violent crimnal behaviour in this country is primarily caused by the fact that we are changing our culture. We are changing it through immigration, and we are changing it through the inappropriate liberalisation of our censorship laws.

If we as a society allow the entertainment industries to sell a product to our most vulnerable young people which tells them that criminal beahviour is cool and fun, then we should not be surprised if these people do exactly what we are allowing the entertainment industries to promote to them.

If we as a people can understand that allowing tobacco companies the right to use media images to sell their dangerous products to immature young kids will result in thousands of kids taking up a dangerous and dirty habit, how is it we can not make the same connection when another bunch of corporate low lifes make staggaring profits by using media images to promote anti social attitudes to kids?

If you came home and found a man in your house telling your kids that criminal behaviour was fun, taking drugs is cool, and women are just meat for sex, you'd chuck him right out of your house.

But you come home, the TV or the radio is on, and you don't think twice about it.
Posted by redneck, Thursday, 29 June 2006 6:38:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear redneck,
the trouble with your post is that criminal behaviour is not spiralling.
In fact the opposite has occurred.I'm working from memory here, but I believe the murder rate in Australia has actually halved in the last 5 years.
Maybe people from all sorts of backgrounds, when treated with generosity and respect, are mostly good people, after all.
Why do you want to think the worst of them? How do you feel when you see a newborn of a different background -one you are sure is "inferior" - does it bother you that by your reasoning they have limited hopes? Wouldn't you prefer to give them, at least, the benefit of the doubt? It might make you happier and more content if you did, you know.
Posted by ena, Thursday, 29 June 2006 8:41:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Redneck, I love you.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 30 June 2006 7:16:07 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Racism and religious intolerance are twins mirroring each other.

Let's be optimistic:

Jews and Muslims Seek to Bridge the Gap at Moscow Forum
Created: 20.06.2006 14:12 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 14:23 MSK

Jews and Muslims pledged to fight religious intolerance at a forum held in Moscow under the aegis of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress (EAJC) this week. Senior clerics, diplomats, scholars and theologians discussed measures to bridge the gap between the two world religions, the Lenta.Ru news website reports.

The forum entitled “Islam and Judaism: the road to dialogue and cooperation”, organized by the EAJC and the Council of Mufits of Russia received backing of Patokh Chodiev, chairman of the global foundation “For Democracy”, and entrepreneur Alijan Ibragimov.

......
Full story:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/06/20/newcontact.shtml
http://lenta.ru/news/2006/06/16/forum/
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 1 July 2006 4:01:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
coach, I had a look at the link you provided. Assuming that the translation is accurate the views given seem similar to those of most other fundamentalist extremists - "Our way is the only true way and everybody better follow it". One of the biggest threats facing mankind in the coming years seems to be the rise of religious fundamentilism.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 8 July 2006 8:44:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
R0bert,

Thanks for watching that clip and welcome back – BTW the translation was quite accurate even if some sarcasm is lost...

We seem to agree about the threat of religious fundamentalism but I think our views and understanding of the situation are somehow construed by our difference in viewpoint.

For me Christianity is my way of understanding life and truth. If I become a fanatic in a secular society – well I’ll be marginalised, criticised, ostracised etc…

But for Islam as you know there is no distinction of state and church. It is all one system.

So when Islam takes hold geographically, it’s the whole system that is at play. Hence their unfitness to tolerate other political and social systems. If it’s not Islamic – well they’ll have to oppose it until it is changed to accommodate their ways...because Islam is unpliable.

Islam is a very public (in your face) faith: public praying, fasting, dress codes, pilgrimage, etc… they are proud to display their religiosity and dare I say impose it on others.

The dilemma is that Islam unlike any other religion cannot co-exist peacefully in secular societies, for the above reasons. Islam can only function within itself and its own set of laws.

Terrorism is just an offshoot of fundamental Islam. Extremism is but an expression of Islamic Jihad – and not an alien behaviour of some - which is a command from their god Allah emulated by their prophet and transcribed in their books.

As you saw in the video clip their leaders truly believe that the world in theirs for the picking.

A far contrast to the teachings of Jesus who said that His kingdom is not from this world…

So when you said: “One of the biggest threats facing mankind in the coming years seems to be the rise of religious fundamentalism”… you should put some distinction on who and what is the threat – not a general “religious” brush over condemnation.

Cheers mate
Posted by coach, Monday, 10 July 2006 12:32:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Coach, So how would you describe the last 700 hundred years or so of christian/colonial occurpation and invasion? Was this not fundamentalism writ large? Or don't you count White Christian modernity as being fundamentalist?
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 10 July 2006 8:03:07 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
rainer, well said.

coach, I deliberately keep the brush broad. Islamic fundamentalism appears to be a more immediate threat to physical safety than a rise in christian fundamentalism. In terms of the basic freedoms we enjoy in western secular/pluraist democracies though I do believe that there is a significant risk of those freedoms being undermined by the persistant efforts of christian fundamentalists. A significant portion of the discussion about the islamic threat seems to be yet more spin by christain fundies pushing their own barrow combined with some real issues.

A reading of posts on these forum pages (even ignoring what is happening in the real world) provides plenty of evidence of the determination of some christains to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us.

By and large the christain church may be taking a softly, softly approach right now - church history is too fresh in our minds for a more direct approach to be viable. Instead some christians focus on distorting every issue they can find to show how the world is going downhill and it is all because we don't follow Jesus (regardless of how the lives of those who do look).

Given a different context I have little doubt that the tone of extremist christian propaganda would be just as militant and aggressive as that from extremist islam.

Christain and islamic fundamentalism. Same disease, different strains. We need to guard against both.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 10 July 2006 8:48:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rainer,

Not Christian.

RObert,

You did not answer my proposed question - how would secular communities react to the threat of Islam?

By attacking both (or all) religions, you are not resolving the threat of Islam itself.

Remember that the wolf ate the boy at the end of that 'cry wolf' story...
Posted by coach, Monday, 10 July 2006 9:30:11 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Quotes:

"Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about my sex life."
[Author Unknown]

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever until the end of time...but he loves you."
[George Carlin]

"I am treated as evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do."
[Author unknown]
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 10 July 2006 10:27:47 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
rainer, again good work.

coach, yes the boy who kept crying wolf did get eaten but my recollection is that the rest of the villagers did not. If only real life was that simple.

As for what we can do. I'm undecided about how far progressed the "islamic threat" really is. The first step would seem to be to stop those within western society who are deliberately provoking muslims for their own interests. As I have said repeatedly there appears to be a group of you who are determined to bring on conflict by continual attacks on all muslims. That in my view marginalises moderate muslims from mainstream society and is likely to lead to an increase in extremism. What I don't know is if the harm from that campaign can be reversed or if we are to late.

My belief in the benefits of secular/pluralist democracy is such that I think that given a chance it will win over most moderates. The rising level of conflict is an artifact of the continued provocation by extremists on all sides rather than a preference of most of us.

One thing I do not want to do is surrender the basic values and freedoms of our society in response to a conflict created by those opposed to those values and freedoms.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 9:14:42 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rainier,

blah, blah, blah,...[author unkmown]

RObert.

Unfortunately in the case of Islam, the whole village did and does get eaten by the wolf... dressed in cheep.

The depth of understanding that you have about Islam is (like most Australians) very shallow. You still view Islam as "moderate' and "extremist" - and that my friend is the biggest lie the islamic propaganda (aided by some politicians) want you to believe.

The best way to describe islam is like a marching army. In the front you have the articulate "moderate" leaders who confuse the issues so average oz. will not see the real damage done by the followers the foot soldiers.

Make no mistake ; Islam is not secular nor is it democratic. It is theocratic. It will remove all your freedoms you now cherish. Islam has no interest in multiculturalism either. It's Islam first and last. All others can go to hell or convert and submit to Allah. Mark my word or even better do some unbiased research.

As for your solution - please try to see the forest from the trees. Attacking people like me is exactly what the islamic movement wants. They are real pros when it comes to cry victim and smoke screening their enemy (you and me). They will NOT stop until Australia is under a predominantly Islamic regime.

We are all at risk - Islam does not discriminate or tolerate "others". Jihad (by terror or ruse) is the only game they must play to change a country from Dar al Harb (house of war or Jihad) into Dar al Islam (house of Islam).

It will be a smooth transition or a bumpy ride...

So, your solution?
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 10:31:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Coach, so when will you be leaving Australia?
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:20:25 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rainier, good question and great quotes on previous post.

What I'd like to know is just where Coach thinks he will be safe from all of us atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddhists, hindus, pagans, blacks, whites, asians, jews, maoris, humanists, any one else and worst of all; other christians who do not take the bible so literally and who do accept people of other faiths and beliefs.

Cheers m'dears :-)
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 11:53:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There is an old saying (for all you outcasts out there): "I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."

Rainer: I am too funny (looking that is). Lighten up.

Boaz: Woof, woof. Chill out.

Redneck: If being white, like you, means I'm superior,
I wanna be blue and inferior.
I see Redneck et el hates the PC crew,
think I'll write a peace song just for you." Redneck is more PC within the Redneck community than the nicest Democrat will ever be. Stop parroting others nonsense.

Gabba, Gabba, Hey. Pouge Mahone to the lot of youse.

Always yours, Rancitas.
Posted by rancitas, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 12:21:29 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
OI!
Oi!
Posted by rancitas, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 12:31:19 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Problem with Islamists is reflection at problem with de-segregating a state from religion while aggressively imposing particular beliefs on minorities.

However, none can be good for everyone.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 13 July 2006 12:52:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 14
  7. 15
  8. 16
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy