"I wouldn’t underestimate the potential damage Islam can bring upon modern civilization if we stand back and look the other way"

Probably akin to the damage that Christianity did to 1000s of indigenous populations when it: "believe[d] it ha[d] discovered the divine truth and solution for our world and [felt] compelled to spread it and apply [God's] ruling on the rest of us."

All religious expansionism and intollerance is dangerous (which is why the "relgious right wing" is dangerous IMHO), now that "Christian" countries are on the other end of the stick we don't like it. (I was a Christian but gave it up years ago when I saw how hypocritical it was. The case in point being a good example.) Christianity hasn't needed force of arms to spread its thinking for years now, but when it had to...IT DID!

The west has been interfering in the Middle East for too long, and it is most certainly in reaction to this that "leaders" from there are encouraging retaliation. If we STOPPED interfering, relations would almost certainly improve! Truly Democratic nations have nothing to fear from any sort of "infiltration" of ideas, as TRUE democracy won't allow laws or governments to be adopted that are not in the interests of the people as a whole...OH HANG ON...that's exactly what just happened...Australia is NO LONGER a TRUE democracy, ok...now we are in danger.

Dear Hadz
I think you made the right move believe it or not..giving up on what was clearly a nominal or cultural Christianity, and opting for something else I presume.

Can I encourage you to re-visit not the 'Christian religion' as you knew it... but Jesus the Messiah Himself. Forget the ugly manifestations and corrupt examples which you have allowed to sway you to (in Pauls words) a 'different gospel' (perhaps the secular one ?) and discover for the first time what it means to know Christ as your own Lord, Savior and Friend.

There is one person who can make a bigggg difference to how Christianity is perceived in the world..and its you. By grappling with the life in Christ as He himself showed by his teaching and parables and death for your and my sin, and His glorious resurrection, confirming our unfading hope of glory, giving us peace of heart, mind and spirit, you can join us who know Him, and be a part of the Way, and share in the only solution to the condition of man available.

Please spend some time in The Word mate... Let me conclude this post with Pauls prayer for the Ephesian Christians..please read it for your edification and consider it my own prayer for you.

[I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.] Ephesians 3.16-21

Actually, BoazDavid, it wasn't a nominal Christianity. I have in the past, accepted Jesus as my saviour (not that I felt any real difference in the long run, more a temporary euphoria), attended Church regularly (as well as numerous study groups), and was about as deeply into my "faith" as you probably are.

I also started to read the Bible, to try to build my faith, unfortunately (some would say, but not me) that was where it broke down. The Bible can be argued so many different ways, nothing is concrete, a lot of main doctrines have direct contradictions in other parts of the Bible (like the faith/works dichotomy) and it is just generally unreliable. To base a faith around it is ludicrous, therefore I've settled into a VERY pleasing agnosticism, where I don't judge other peoples' beliefs and hope they won't judge mine, as there's so little REAL evidence to back those beliefs up with.

The problems come when "the faithful" try to force these unsubstantiated beliefs down other peoples' throats; whether it's the Middle Ages Christian way (which compares, some have said, to the modern Islamic way), or the modern Christian way through door-knocking, forums (wink), or TV evangelism. The later being far more palatable and commendable by western standards, of course.

Dear Hadz
faith and works are not a dichotomy, they are the 2 sides to the same coin.
Clearly, if u say you have faith, but it is not demonstrated in works then the faith is suspect, but that doesn't change the fundamental truth of 'faith' in Christ being the saving issue. 'Repent' (turn away) and 'believe' -they go together mate.

I've certainly found challenging things in scripture, but definitely not what you describe, these 'contradictions'.... though the harshest most challenging words are probably in Hebrews.. I won't say which ones.

I wonder what you make of Pauls conversion ? Lukes writings ?

I hope and pray that you manage to overcome your agnosticism, -always remember one thing, its between you and the Lord, and if you have genuine struggles, then bring them to Him, and patiently wait His word to your heart.
Cheers

'afternoon to you all...
I came across this thread purely by chance.
I found BOAZ's comments interesting. To this uneducated misanthropic 'dullard', I do believe that a state of war does exist, between 'the west' and certain elements of the islamic community. I also believe that these radicals will ultimately win this war. My reasoning is as follows - They (the radicals) are not bound by ANY law, morality, human convention, or by any other means that may seek to regulate or curtail their violent activities. We,(the west) on the other hand, are substantially bound by all manner of regulatory processes. Including, those folk who hold the sincere view that an olive branch and the preservation of civil rights are far more important, then to wage a really EFFECTIVE response, to the evil crimes of these terrorists groups. The difficulty is, the military, the police, and the intelligence agencies MUST conduct their business with one arm behind their back (and it must be SEEN, to be behind the back!), for fear that they may inadvertently irritate or breach, a law, or regulation of some type. Or worse, impinge on the sensitivity and earn the wrath of some civil or auditory group, such as the media, civil libertarians, or the ombudsman, et al. Make no mistake, they'll win...absolutely! We must take the 'gloves off'. Enact the necessary tough legislation, and do ALL those things that are necessary, in order to defeat this evil. Put simply...Australia and its people, either have the will, or they don't! The latter will ensure the TOTAL extirpation of our culture and way of life, as we know it. We must meet this evil with BOTH hands.

Dear Sung Wu

I'd be tempted to agree with you about the radicals actually winning but for a few points.

1/ A huge hinderance to effective terrorism management is the concept of 'human rights' as outlined in the UN Convention. Increasingly I see Western governments realizing that the charter was composed in fantsyland and is unworkable in the real world of 9/11s and the such like. So, I feel there will be increasing departure from this as time goes by and as terrorists ramp up the anty.

2/ We humans, even those of the warm fuzzy bleeding heart West, do have a remarkable sense of survival. I believe that if things became truly tenuous, layer after layer of our 'civilness' would be peeled off, as stronger and more brtual measures are required to deal with this threat.

To see a classic example of just how this transformation takes place, have a read of Josephus account of the destruction of Jerusalem and see how the factions degraded themselves into inhumanity.

http://members.aol.com/FlJosephus2/warChronology6Factions.htm

In this scenario, we represent the Romans (big government-the State) and the terrorists are the Idumeans,Zealots and others.

The greatest danger we face is not that from 'without' but from 'within'. Those who would use higher fertility, the law, political intrigue to persue their goals.

Just ONE political seat can change the course of a countries history.
If a close election, one deliberately targeted seat can mean deals of all description. Migrants are very politically savvy. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that trading off 'looser immigration policy' for 'political support in a key seat' is something most parties are willing to do for the sake of winning. But it's low profile of course.
Looser immigration policy, translates to more migrants, perhaps of a particular ethnicity or religion, which translates to greater political clout depending on where they settle, which translates to even looser immig policy which translates to a bloodless coup.
Now before you ask me 'did you take your medication' :) I only say this because I have "lived" it in an Asian country.