Mr Boaz,

Points taken.

I knew that if there was anyone on The Right who had the intelligence to see my point it would be you.

BrokenSword,

Yes, isn’t it sad when we have to resort to civil disobedience in order to fight our own government’s extremism. Oops, I could be done for sedition now.

The Alchemist,

You hit the nail on the head!

Plantagenet,

Conspiracy that doesn’t exist?

Probably doesn’t now but the problem with trusting governments the way people like you do is that you’re setting a dangerous precedence for them to take it further and further…and they will! To deny that is dangerously ignorant.

I think it’s cute that you trust the governments enough to be certain that the concerns of The Left are purely conspiratorial; without having any proof at all…and mounting proof for the contrary. But your gut instincts aren’t enough to comfort me sorry.

We’re lucky it hasn’t gone too far in Australia yet but I suggest you take a look into the silencing the Bush Administration is doing of the American public and see what’s in store for us.

Plerdsus,

Everyone knows we’re at war. To state the obvious is only demonstrating that you miss the point entirely. And besides, I don’t particularly care about a phoney war designed only to make the richest 1% even richer than they already are…other than the fact that it’s killing and maiming soldiers and innocent civilians of course.

We live in different times now. Gone are the days where wars were fought for freedom and security (i.e. WWI & WWII).

jkenno,

"I prefer liberty with danger than peace with slavery"

That’s the exact point I’m trying to make but some will never get it. It seems there are some here that would prefer to be safe and secure slaves than free men in danger.

I personally would rather die young as a free man than live the rest of my life in an oppressive country.

BTW - Thanks Narcissist for the original transcript of my "quote".

I think that's the fundamental point here, no matter how loud the Conservatives cry.

Imagine how disgusted the wise men who founded the United States would be if they saw what conservatives thought today. They’d hardly call them conservatives. They’d more likely shake their heads in shame and think: “Gee, that didn’t last long did it? And who does this G W Bush moron think he is anyway?”

They must be turning in their graves.

Mr Man
"I prefer liberty with danger than peace with slavery"
Sounds good!
But there's one variable.
Not everyone lives with/is exposed to, the same amount of danger/risk.
Someone safely cloistered on a University campus or the like, is likely to be less endangered than someone working at the airport or Central Railway station, and such a person MAY opt for a little less liberty in exchange for a little more security.

Carl -again... I accept your view as valuable. I do sympathize, and to be honest, share many of your concerns about intrusive government.. (don’t get me started :) but on this issue, I don’t have too many worries because election time gives me the opportunity to change things.

Hadz.. there is more ‘War” going on than most people realize.

Lets examine a few things. War is between ‘enemies’ and usually a result of one party embarking on a course of action which is quite likely to utterly destroy the other.

VARIOUS TYPES of ENEMY.

MILITARY. Nazi Germany and Alexander the Great, Napoleon etc. British toward Indigenous Australia

ECONOMIC. Genghis Khans military escapades by and large began over economic/trade issues.
There is an ugly but probably fairly true rumor that the USA actually went into Iraq because Sadaam Hussein was planning to sell Oil in Euros rather than US dollars. The story goes that this would so disrupt the US economy, that it was tantamount to a declaration of War.

It is one thing to be a sovereign state and make independent decisions concerning ones own self interest. But if those decisions destroy the economy of another state needlessly, then you had better watch out if they have some firepower. Most business runs on these lines from what I can see. It’s dog eat dog. This issue raises interesting questions of ethics in relation to international relations. Is it ‘do for’ others as you would have them do for you or..’do TO’ others......what they are already doing to you.

CULTURAL. It is just as much a declaration of war when one group ‘invades’ another surrupticiously by migrating and then using the existing legal and political freedoms to seek changes in the law which specifically benefit them, and diminish the rest.
The conflict with Islam is particularly noteworthy in this regard.
Claiming there is no ‘Australian’ culture and promoting ‘MultiCulturalism’ on those grounds is an outright declaration of cultural genocide on 70% of the inhabitants.

RACIALandRELIGIOUS_TOLERANCE_ACT 2001 in Victoria is one battle ground in that war..

“You see the argument with Islam is that there is no difference between State and Religion.”

Coach, the argument with Christianity, is theres no difference between the state and religion. Whats the difference between one who wears a rag on their head and one who wears a noose around their neck (collar and tie). Both represent repressive regimes, intent on full control. Name the Australian politicians that don't believe in god.

Hadz, we are at war in Australia, we're threatened with suppression of freedoms, unilateral control over our lives by christian politicians. Subversive control by other god factions through economic and social suppression and politically correct manipulation.

The only winners when you reduce freedoms, are the elite and religion. We are heading back to the days before the WW1, when there was little freedom, and the populace was enslaved in industrial and rural servitude. Again it was the churches who supported and provided the workhouses and labour camp orphanages that reduced people to slaves of the elite believers in god.

Sadly those able to see the insidious aims of religion and pushed a secular lifestyle upon the churches, have now passed away. Now we're in the control of those who've known nothing but being provided for. So they don't realise nor care, about what its like to be suppressed and forced into economic servitude, or mortal combat to support a fictitious violent beliefs grab for total power.

Personally, I think the whole threat of militant Islam is completely unnecessary. I'm no fan of Islam (as I'm no fan of any organised religion), but why do we let these clowns have such importance in the world? Let's get right off the whole oil trip as soon as we can and just let the Muslim world and ideology generally crawl back under the rock from whence it came or go back to what it used to do -- squabbling amongst itself. I don't know how true this is, but I've heard that minus oil, the entire GDP of the middle east is less than the turnover of the Nokia phone company. So, who would take any of these tools seriously if we didn't need oil? It's not like they've contributed anything significant to the world for centuries so it's not like anyone would miss their contributions to the world forum.

Likewise, as someone else pointed out, the number of deaths from terrorism in the west is miniscule when compared to the amount of money poured into anti-terrorism. If we're really out to save lives, why don't we actually put all that money into areas that would bear significant results (eg. cancer research, programmes to reduce obesity, safer cars/roads, etc.)? The War on Terror is such a waste of our resources.

As to the whole ideology of all this, I can't help but notice a great irony. Supposedly, we in the west are supposed to be trying to set an irresistible example, rather than demand or threat, to the world as to why our way is the best way, yet we betray what supposedly sets us apart from the others: our very core of classical liberal beliefs. That's why even people such as Francis Fukuyama, perhaps the arch-granddaddy of the right wing, have departed this neo-con. nonsense. When that starts to happen you really do have to wonder if any of the current crop of politicians have lost the plot (if indeed they ever had it). As mentioned by others, the American Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves.