Strewth: I have no problems admitting my prejudices regarding the Jews and their neighbours. I personally think both sides have a lot of blood on their hands, but whilst I'm not a fan of the Orthodoxy, in the main, Jews are part of our broader western culture (and I'm not talking about religion -- just look at Nobel Laureates), and have contributed greatly to it and wish to continue to do so. Not so for their neighbours. As such, I'll support them. If some other nation in the New World were willing to give them a piece of land and the Jews were willing to move there, I'd urge them to do so. That way, when the oil runs out, we could turn our backs on that entire crappy region and let it return to the Dark Ages where it wants to return (and belongs).

Your points about countries based upon discrimination don't apply just to Israel. We could pick a whole lot more countries in the world, including most in the Middle East. The only reason much of Europe isn't like that is because at various points many such countries have kicked out any minorities (eg. kicking ethnic Germans -- even those who were anti-fascist -- out of Czechoslovakia) or still heavily persecute them (eg. the Roma). Likewise, talking about colonisation of Israel the way you do, we'd have to talk the same nonsense about the entire New World. Like I said though, Israel was originally Jewish back in the day. Again, there have been other nations in the world that were occupied for a very long time until independence, eg. Slovakia.

The alchemist and Philo: I'm wondering how long it will take before "tolerant" Europe shows its real colours and we see the rapid growth of fascist anti-Muslim forces and violence. Because if there's something Europeans do really well, it's a good old-fashioned pogrom.

Shorbe, you wrote: "Jews are part of our western culture...and have contributed greatly to it...Not so their neighbours. As such I'll support them..." That's your criterion, is it? They're westerners - like us - and the others are not. All I see here is tribalism at best, racism at worst. Your second paragraph indicates that you are completely ignorant when it comes to the nature of the Israeli state. My example of Israel's discriminatory Law of Return (just one of a panoply of laws that discriminate between Jews and non-Jews) was obviously lost on you: we are dealing here not with racist individuals who may be found in every society, but laws which discriminate between citizens - in other words with a form of apartheid. But I imagine from your above quoted sentence that you'd have been more than happy with white supremicists ruling the roost in apartheid South Africa because they're "part of our broader western culture".

Strewth: No, you missed my point in my second paragraph that the charges levelled against Israel are rarely levelled at any of the other many states (eg. Japan and Malaysia) that are discriminatory, and that Israel's historical claim to its land is ignored (and it's called an invading force) when plenty of other nations have made historical claims to land occupied by others. Why is Israel so singled out? Could it be because it's white/western, and somewhere in the leftist mindset, whites/westerners have a monopoly on all that is bad? You're also conveniently missing the point that the Palestinian people sponsor terrorism and that many other nations in the region sponsor such terrorism.

Right back at the start of this debate, I said that whilst I'm not happy with Israel a lot of the time, I'm under no illusions that if we don't support Israel it will cease to exist. As I also said, if we could convince a nation such as our own to convince the Jewish population of Israel to abandon that crappy bit of land, I'd be happy because once the oil runs out, the Middle East could be consigned to the trashcan of history where it belongs and the rest of the world could get on with being civilised instead of being hamstrung by world views born in the Dark Ages. However, given that the west sold the Jews out once before, why would they take any of us up on that offer?

We're talking about two groups of people who cannot live together, if only because their neighbours will make sure of that. The Middle East has a vested interest in keeping Palestinians in their present situation because it serves their anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic agenda.

Yes, I will always be a tribalist. It's common sense survival. I don't believe all cultures are equal or that they can live together or even want to. The Middle East doesn't want peace with the Jews, and in a broader sense, with the Christian or secular west either. Why would I shoot myself in the foot then?

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labour; even supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it." Samuel Johnson

This is interesting given the current topic:

“The Palestinians of 1948”
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001137.html

Strewth,
A perfect summary of the above ignorance… Well said.