Scout,
I do not see how I must report to you for my private life! However here are a few facts. I am a semi retired pensioner who supports orphan children in Rwanda and India every month and have done for the past 30 years.

I with 8 other men from my Church plus Business men, professional drug counsellors, doctors and psychologists from other churches 14 years ago set up a drug rehabiliation farm in NSW where I contributed $64,000 from my superannuation towards its funding, and 4 days each fortnight for seven years until I had an accident. By this time it was established. Where possible I still assist with the care of youth on street with problems.

How about a report from you?

It is a pity you have not read exactly what Peter Costello actually did say rather than presume his intent by your speculative anti-Christian agenda.

Philo

I have not ever questioned your private life, not remotely interested - get over yourself.

The fact that you become so defensive and take it so personally when your religion is subjected to criticism speaks volumes about you.

I am questioning what Peter Costellos version of christian values really mean. In case you have forgotten this is what the thread is about.

Humane values have been around a lot longer than christianity, otherwise we would have died out as a species long before the creation of formal religions such as the big three from the Middle East.

Like many people, I too do my fair share of welfare work (both as professional, donor and as volunteer).

Another thing you have forgotten is that we still have freedom of speech in this country. I am quite entitled to express my opinion, that is what this forum is all about.

Fact: people do not have to be christian to hold upstanding human and humane values to do good work.

That is my point.

Coach, “I implore you to judge Christianity not based on “us” but on the perfect person of Jesus himself.”

No problems there, he's dead, how more perfect can you get. Thats god s plan isn't it death by the most violent and confusing manner

“Christians are sinners like other unsaved humans. However our moral values come directly from God, and not through other people – BIG difference.”

They certainly do, death and destruction, the values christians exhibit to those they force to god.

Sadly Philo, the further time goes on the more you exhibit the true nature of monotheists. You try to separate yourself from the works of religion, yet are heavily involved in ritual and the demeaning of people.

Values can be seen in all life, animals have never heard of god, yet they exhibit values and ethics that far out way any espoused by monotheists. The people I know in the work I'm involved with, have rejected religion, as we see every day people rejected by their god and in some cases their church. Dealing with terminal people and their families is fraught with problems religion creates for them. I talk to many who are devastated their god has forsaken them in their hour of need, as they watch their loved one needlessly die with no help from the ideology they bow down to.

Philo, in the years that I have been doing this work, I have yet to see one positive outcome that can be attributed to the belief in god. Those most at peace when the time comes, are those that have no god, just enjoyed their lives and are sad its over. So I stick to values that animals use, they always prove to be the best. I think 30 years within the church, as well as growing up in a religious community gives me an understanding of how it works. Again you clutch at straws when you see reality pushing your delusions away.

Alchemist

Good point about animals. My German Shepherd saved me from being attacked and a cat once woke me in the middle of the night to warn me of an intruder. Amazing stuff. Plus the unconditional love and trust.

These are true values. I wonder if that is what P C meant? Somehow I doubt it. He was very judgemental when he used an analogy about removing his shoes to enter a mosque. Why couldn't he have used another analogy that didn't involve a slur at Islam. It was very clear what he meant - "non-christians not welcome in Australia".

I was born here, I believe in compassion, acceptance, respect and charity towards others. People are free to believe or not in a deity, but when they start to force their beliefs on me, I object. I object to the lectures, sermons and hellfire threats.

Philo thought it was necessary to divulge personal details about himself in an attempt to convince that he does hold some values. I can only form an opinion on self-proclaimed christians by their BEHAVIOUR on OLO. Anyone can claim to be a peach if they want.

However, when they choose to judge me for my beliefs, demean me by personal insults, threaten me with hellfire or in BD's case claim I am greedy for desiring a living income for unskilled workers, and so on, I become cynical to the extreme about these so-called "christian values".

The Alchemist,

Jesus is not dead; I spoke with him this morning. He even asked about you.

I sympathise with the way you and others feel about religions, monotheism, God, gods, or whatever… I would - and probably was once - thinking that way. Humans think that they are all-knowing and self-sufficient, and don’t need some external “deity” to compromise their otherwise perfect life.

You speak of animals and their high “values”. I love animals (some behave horribly too) but I know who created them and enabled them to display their beauty for us humans.

It’s all a matter of perception I guess. You dismiss God from your radar – but you can’t avoid His creation.

Have you contributed to the decision to be born? How can you not see God’s hand upon this miracle of life? Where does life come from? How can two cells blend and develop perfectly into a human form? All coincidence to you? A big cosmic accident - give or take a few billion years? Even if it were evolution – what started it?

Your choice for not believing in God does not change the fact that he exists. There are millions of people - more intelligent than you also - who have that certitude. So your wisdom is sadly robbing you from the full life – because someone or something hurt you in the past and you never got over it.

We know each other enough by now to be more direct. I am not patronising you or anyone else. I fail miserably to express my true love and compassion for people, especially on this limited OLO medium.

But I truly know that to live according to the giver of life is the only true way – as hard and tortuous as it can be – to know beyond any doubt that death is not final, that God spared me the final judgement, and my fear of death is no more, because a better life awaits me.