Prefer more expansive and inclusive Human Values, such as those espoused by International Foundation of Human Values.

“A few key principles compose the foundation of human values upon which societies have been established.

• The innate dignity of human life

• Respect and consideration for the "other"

• The interconnection between humankind and the environment and thus the need to care for and preserve the earth

• The importance of integrity and service

• An attitude of non-violence

• The individual and collective quest for peace and happiness”

Simple and succinct: there is room for all races, creeds and genders here – and respect for our planet (environment).

I thought I’d find that modern Christian values would have more in common with human rights. Apparently not so, if the above mentioned is what Peter Costello means by Christian values, all I can say is his values relate only marginally to all Australians.

I’d be interested to hear from those Christian posters who regularly flout values 3, 4, 5, & 6 to explain why. Wouldn’t mind betting that 1 & 2 have been conveniently ignored on occasion when circumstances ‘arise’.

You hit the nail right on the head Scout, you only have to read a few posts by the zealots to see they change like the wind. Its hard when you are dealing with such infantile minds, that dwell within antiquity. You realise their incapable of seeing beyond the mirror in their heads.

As for 3,4,5,6, they don't count. Jesus died for all their sins, so their blameless. Theres two values they uphold vigorously, lying and irresponsibility for their actions.

Its no good showing these fools truth, they avoid it like the plague. The values of this country were forged on the battle fields of the world during the last century and in the paddocks and bush of this land. It started at eureka, there the churches stayed with the authorities as they always do, against the people. What was fought for wasn't any form of religious values or concepts, it was to keep this country free from the suppression of sick ideologies, the sickest being monotheism.

The only religious value that monotheists stand for are, we're right, your wrong and we'll kill you to prove it. The religious are so lacking in veracity, they try to take credit for anything good in the world, then go about destroying it. Thats why religion continues to respond to the world with suppression. They have no basis of fact, so have to resort to violence to enforce their lies.

Today my values are with relatives and friends that died whilst protecting this country. The mates injured and psychologically lost from the effects of their unselfish actions. Not the insipid religious cowards of the world who sit in judgement on all, yet don't have the courage to grow up and be real.

Today I think of the people killed at Port Arthur 20 years ago, and the dear veteran cobber that left us recently. Today our little community also grieves for the loss of our 3 friends drowned on Sunday. We won't pray, we will remember and salute the values they displayed during their lives.

The alchemist/Scout: How lucky we all are to have, not one, but two such fine, noble, self-effacing, humble thoroughly decent scribes. We can all learn so much from you paragons of utter perfection. Don't you both just instinctively know just what kind of people we are who dare think different from you. No good hiding our imperfections as they are on show to two clever clogs, as you both are.
Funny that I have seen and noted in my long life that those who condemn others for varied faults and imperfections invariably have the same faults and imperfections. Of course not either of you two magnificence's - I repent in ashes and sackcloth for even thinking such total blasphemy. May you both go on to greater heights and continue to lead and educate us slobs and degenerates. Oh! so cringely humbly, numbat

Numbat it is pointless getting involved with such ignorant drivel. They have never been involved in the life of any Church or community, so they don't have a clue.
Scout says; "As for the 21st Century addition – it’s ALL about sex; nothing about equality, compassion or respect."

I wonder who runs these welfare stores: Salvation Army, St Vincents DePaul, AngliCare, Wesley Mission, Compassion Australia etc? There are thousands of them; those atheists certainly got the community needs covered.

Who runs Life counselling, family relationship counselling, grief counselling, divorce recovery, drug rehabiliation, youth off the streets settlements, prostitution exodus, job search, nursing homes etc obviously the churches lack any capacity of compassion so they must be run by atheists. I've visited and worked in a few, too good to be run by Christians. No the atheists have the new religion that is showing the way in compassion, and respect for hurting people. You see their institutions in every town park, with the sign "Male" "Female". Scout and Alchemist they have got all the truth.

Scout,

Judging from the impulsive responses you got so far, you have hit a nerve.

At a human base level we are all the same, we share the same needs, desires, passions, etc. A Christian is not necessarily a “good person" by worldly standards. We all break the 10 commandments regularly.

3. renunciation of worldly goods: Paraphrasing Jesus: “you cannot serve two masters (God and money or…)” “where your mind is so is your heart also” “Do not waste time on the perishable but focus on the eternal things from above”.
The problem is not the accumulation of goods but the “preoccupation”with them.

4. renunciation of violence: "If a man strike you on one cheek, turn the other cheek." – Agree this is hard.

5. forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I am a ‘forgive and forget’ person but I will stand for what is right, defend my family, country, etc…

6. unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" – I do a lot of that (e.g. muslim friends) but unconditional love is also any 'giving' without expecting anything in return.

Christians do not behave as the “world” would anticipate. To model Christ is our goal but it’s humanly impossibility and thank God not a prerequisite for salvation.

Jesus told his disciples: “love one another like I have loved you, by this people will know that you are my disciples”.

I implore you to judge Christianity not based on “us” but on the perfect person of Jesus himself.

Christians are sinners like other unsaved humans. However our moral values come directly from God, and not through other people – BIG difference.

Take marriage for example. To us believers it is a divine institution between a man and a woman ordained by God our creator.

All the ensuing implications like adultery, bigamy, pre-marital sex, pornography; same gender relations (and marriage ) is out, not because we are repulsed by it all, but because it was never God’s plan for his creation.

Philo
The main thrust of my post was to show that many Christians believe they hold the moral high ground – just for being Christian!

A secondary jab was aimed squarely at many of the Christian posters to OLO who do not ‘turn the other cheek’, are clearly more interested in their own wealth than paying employees a decent living wage, who continually judge others and so on. See very little evidence of Christian values exhibited on OLO by self-professed Christians. If your religion is so wonderful - where are the examples? Ever heard of leading by example? Every time these 'lapses' are pointed out, the Christian posters say "we're only human, but following Christ is the way". Hmmmmm, here on OLO you have an opportunity to 'light the way' (sermons,lectures and biblical quotes don't cut it) and yet you never do.

On social welfare issues, I acknowledge there are many Christian organisations that help many people –

However, “Life counselling, family relationship counselling, grief counselling, divorce recovery, drug rehabilitation (sic), youth off the streets settlements, prostitution exodus, job search, nursing homes etc” are not the exclusive preserve of Christians.

Many of these and similar organisations are run and staffed by non-christians. I have both worked in a few and had call to access some of the services.

Christians do not hold the monopoly on social welfare, charity and moral values.

That you become so defensive when this fact is pointed out to you, reveals a great deal about you and your insecurities.

There are good and bad in all of humanity. Respect, decency, compassion are HUMAN values and apply to all of us, regardless of race, religion or gender.

Peter Costello thought he was speaking for all Australians based on his religious beliefs – therefore he wasn’t speaking for all of us – only the people (good and bad) who believe in Christianity.

This type of exclusionary talk and belief is a value Australia and the world can do without.