Excellent Piece. However as the saying goes "Satan can quote scripture to suit his needs". The rednecks simply ignore the bit's in the bible that they don't like. It's rather funny that in a vote buying bid Costello talks about "Christian values" seeing as his bother believes the Gov of not displaying them much.

Well done Donna! There are, of course no such thing as Christian values, there is only the faithful living out their lives in hope and trust.

Donna: Watching 'our?' peter in Parliament, noting how he speaks,[ didn't he drive one member to attempt to take his own life in the past by the use of his foul tongue?] the language he uses and the obvious deceitful lies he spouts. Peter would not recognise Christianity if it reared up and bit him in his bottom.
His attitude to the poor, needy and life's unfortunates one only has to note the church he attended [some have said that he was a blatant hypocrite just chasing votes] it was a wealth and health religion. It's taught here that their god [small 'g' for their god]helps those who help themselves, especially the rich.
Donna there is Christianity, that's composed of those who do try to do the right thing then there's religion which is normally anti-Bible. Peter is of the later and should he make it to Heaven [just a term not a description] he in his "humility?" would probably allow God to sit at his right hand. numbat

Christian values, Costello certainly exhibits those, even Numbat sees that. As for them being our values, I think you should look at our history to see the truth.

More than 95% of those that came to this country 200 years ago weren't religious at all, they had it forced upon them. During the last 100 years we have spent our time removing the religious values from our statutes. The values we had until the 1990's have since been eroded by the encroaching religious influence within our parliaments. Those values come from the need in this country to help your mates, no matter who they are. They come from the sacrifices made when this country has been forced to war under religious and colonial pretexts and they've been developed from the people of this country striving to created a useful responsible and progressive society, not reliant on others.

Now we have the religious trying to turn the tide, by forcing multicultural values down our throat, just as they did in the past with their enforced religious education and enforcing god in our constitution and laws.

As Sells says, “there are, of course no such thing as Christian values, there is only the faithful living out their lives in hope and trust. “

After all, thats all they've got from their god, hope an trust. Some hope considering the expression and veracity of monotheistic and the blind trust they have in delusion. So they do have values, hope and trust, they value hope, but you can't trust them as can be seen by their history and application.

Heh The alchemist: HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE! except for Christian values I agree with your post. What do you think of that Eh!
There are religious values which are superior to pagan beliefs then there are Christian values superior to both the former. Yes, reading your mind, there are not very many real Christians. numbat

The "Christian values" that Peter Costello talks of are nothing to do with Christianity. (I accept that Costello is personally a committed Christian.)

But the values he speaks of are a direct steal from the US Republican Party's manipulation of religious congregations to maximise their votes. The strategy is spelt out by three Harvard economists in a 2004 paper, "Strategic Extremism: Why Republicans and Democrats Divide on Religious Values", http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/barro/bw/bw05_08_22.pdf

The full paper is at http://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2004papers/HIER2044.pdf

The strategy refines the "dogwhistling" that JHo has been accused of - talking in code to a sectional audience without being obvious to the rest. ("Homeland security" and "we decide who comes here..." mean one thing to xenophobes who want to see no more boat people arriving, but - initially - another to those who think security and immigration are normal responsibilities of nations.)

The strategy works where Christian churchgoers constitute roughly half the population. Thus, it is widely applicable in the US where 44% of adults regularly attend church, but is only selectively effective in Australia.

The Sydney Hills District where Hillsong Church is anchored is an electorate where this strategy worked. Liberal candidate Louise Markus, elected in the last federal election, is associated with Hillsong.

The Chaser has the story, http://www.chaser.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2988&Itemid=127

What sort of Christianity IS Hillsong?

The Age reported last July, http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/17/1089694610240.html?from=storyrhs

QUOTE
... Treasurer Peter Costello was given a rapturous response when he addressed the 20,000-plus delegates [at Hillsong last week]...

[Reverend Tim Costello's] criticism in the past led to Pastor Houston dropping plans to republish one of his books. "I was a critic of Brian Houston's book You Need More Money - God's Financial Plan For Your Life. It was a 'Jesus Gets You Rich Book'," said Mr Costello...
END QUOTE

And when Jesus makes you rich, what then?

QUOTE
"I do have a Harley-Davidson, I don't apologise for that. It is my outlet in life," Mr Houston said.
END QUOTE

Oh, THAT kind of Christian values...

Dear Donna
first a technical point.. there is no 'Matthew 31' I think you mean Mat 25:31 etc...
but you would have done well to quote the 31st verse..and remind us of the context of our Lords words

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory... he will separate the sheep from the goats" etc...

After this, he asks them the questions you quoted.

We need to be very clear on our Lords intent, and the appropriate application of his Words. The 'hungry' he is referring to, (if one takes the Old Testament background into consideration) are those who are disadvantaged through no fault of their own, "The alien and the fatherless". Sure.. but NOT those who come to the land of Israel to intermarry with Israelites, NOR those who sought to lead Israelites astray to idolatry..

in other words.. there was a FRAMEWORK and limits to the allowable behavior of non Israelites in Israel.

Just so, it is futile to refer to those, who were one weekend laughing it up in Macca's in Jakarta.. having EVERYTHING that assylum 'is', as those deserving of compassion the week following simply because they made a dangerous boat voyage as economic opportunists deliberately and maliciously flouting Australias laws on Immigration, and claiming to qualify as 'The alien and the fatherless' as mentioned in the Old Testament.

Far from being 'The hungry who needed food' they were the 'criminal who is deserving of incarceration'

Far from being the 'naked who needed clothes' they were the opportunists seeking to que jump others'.

The values which are 'Christian' and thus "Judao" also, are 2 fold

1/ Love God with all your heart
2/ Love your neighbour as yourself.

Having lived in Malaysia for around 8 yrs, I know for a fact, that if I as an Australian tried to flout their immigration regulations, I would be deserving of the full force of their laws. In just the same way, we treat those seeking to enter Australia illegally as we ourselves would and should be treated by others.

Donna, just love reading your stories ....... dunno why? Provocative perhaps. But "Christian values" coming from the Smirk Costello along with his dillsong appearances is about as mad as it gets.

Most people can develop values ( ethos, morals and ethics) such as goodness, love, curiosity, inquiry, justice, peace, joy, humour, generosity, understanding, empathy, excellence, etc and maintain a paradigm considerably higher than that presented by the Christian hierarchy.

e.g.
The Christian hierarchy will come out promoting grace, faith, love and hope as the message supposedly coming from teddy (god) and expecting to deliver joy and peace. However these amount to fake values when one sees unashamed discrimination, unashamed belief stamping, unashamed indoctrination of superstition, mythology, miracles, magic and bad science, unashamed subsidies from governments, unashamed ingenious psychological efforts to control minds and bodies, unashamed promotion of a life of self-deception, unashamed physical and emotional dependence, unashamed rote learning in wrong order, unashamed chanting and talking in tongues, , , , , etc.

Pete was there for the votes. No religious 'wonderment' about that!

Keiran: Please you are getting man-made religion mixed up with Christianity.
Religion is the bells, smells, pretty frocks? for the preachers and funny hats with elaborate ceremonies taken from paganism and total hypocrisy this is far from what Jesus taught very far indeed. numbat

Numbat, this is a cop-out, and you know it.

>>you are getting man-made religion mixed up with Christianity<<

This is the argument that you, Boaz and the rest use to excuse all the crimes perpetrated in the name of Christianity over the ages. It goes like this: crimes against humanity (e.g. the crusades, the inquisition, burning witches etc.) by definition cannot have been perpetrated by Christians, because real Christians don't do that stuff.

The logical fallacy of your statement is in the fact that Christianity, like every religion, is “man-made”. Think for a moment: how exactly would you, in the twentyfirst century, be aware of Christianity if its foundations hadn't been created, and its associated rituals perpetuated, by men? Even Jesus left no personal records behind – everything is in reported speech, written and interpreted by others.

As far as I can tell, the only direct communication between the “Christian God” and his people was when he wrote on Moses' tablets. But there again, this was a message to the Jewish people, since Christianity didn't exist at the time.

All religions, bar none, are created by men, for men.

There is a subtext to this thread that fascinates me – let's call it Hillsong-envy.

The amount of money these guys raise from their congregation that goes straight into direct-help projects in needy corners of the world is prodigious. Yet other, supposedly Christian, congregations who cannot raise a hundredth of this amount (and then use it to re-roof their church building) exhibit a most un-Christian amount of envy.

I am not a religious person, but I have a great deal of admiration for their charitable works. This position is possibly coloured by the fact that every member of Hillsong I have met (and they are very clannish, almost masonic) exhibits the kind of love-thy-neighbour characteristics that would send Boaz into ecstasy.

Interesting juxtaposition, charity on one side and envy on the other.

pericles: You are getting man-made - What would you know about Christianity?
This is an arguement - Again what would an unbeliever know about true Christianity?
As far as you can tell - that says it all!
All religion bar none - Again your anti-religious bias is showing as well as your total ignorance.
Hillsong envy - You must be joking! By the way didn't they get into some strife recently for alleged wrongful use of Government, tax payers, money, after all they are man-made religion.
How do you know what other groups raise or what individual Christians do with their money - ignorance once again, have you no shame at all?
I am not a religious - We can readily see that, more the pity. But one day you will be and be so thankful.
Interesting jux. - Your views from utter ignorance only.
By the way I would much sooner live in a not perfect Christian nation than live in an islamic or other pagan nation and if you were truthful SO WOULD YOU! numbat

Donna, very nice, thanks.

Every city deserves watchmen to its gates, who determine if entrants are friends or foes. This is an act of charity toward the occupants of the city because it secures their safety and wellbeing. Charity is not allowing theives to steal the food and resourses of the city, and burn the city down. Compassion has a mutual response. We feed the illegals entering our doors even if they are our enemies, but we do not let them live within our walls.

Values that bless all men as equal are universal and come from the God who gave life to all persons. Equality is a universal value also identified as a Christian value. [Demonstrated by the apostle Paul's words and in his mission to the Gentiles, 'there is neither Jew or Greek'; 'slave or free'; 'circumcised or uncircumcised'; 'male or female' but all are one in Christ'; see Galatians and Ephesians].

Even Jewish men thank God they were not born a woman; as if they believe women are lesser persons or lesser desireable beings. [I have orthodox Jewish relatives and Rabbi as members of my family and have attended synagogue and heard them pray such]. Islam also does not maintain the principle of equality for every person.

jewish men thank God for not making them women becuase in the Jewish tradition women asre considered to have an essentially more spiritual nature, rendering them free from the 'obligation' to fulfill certain religious duties ( for them it is a choice, not an obligation). Men say that prayer, because they are grateful to fulfill the requirements of worship. If Christian equality is demonstrated by Paul, in the quote that Philo used, then the implication of being 'one in Christ' could well suggest that if you are not 'with Christ', you are not included...... certainly the 'who gets into heaven' theory of Christianity suggests as much. Finally I have been to Villawood regularly for the passed three years, and I can assure you there is perhaps a feeding of the body, but an utter torturing of the soul. We have a right to decide who comes to live in our country perhaps, but not to act inhumanly. I suspect Jesus would be outraged by the inhuman treatment of asylum seekers. Try as you might, Philo, pitting one religion against another and claiming its superiority is bound to not only cause trouble, but reveal the cultish nature of its writer.

lyrebird,
I also have visited friends in Villawood being deported for overstaynig their visas. These three boys were here from West Papua on student visas but were offered some work by their friend. One had overstayed his visa by a year so he could earn enough money to buy a home when he returned. Another so he could put his brother through university. Another so he could establish a business on his return. All intended to return and I was concerned they return before the expiry of their visa conditions otherwise they would loose all opportunity to return at some later stage. They were all economic opportunists. Yes. They were close friends and two at one stage had lived with me while students.

However we have laws that must be respected and they were arrested and held in Villawood for several weeks before their deportation. They did not even have time to pack up their flat or their personal belongings. Villawood might have some old buildings but the conditions are acceptable for the requirement of detention. When one is in violation of the law one has to expect some disadvantages.

Donna,

What are the Christian values you expect Christians to have?

First you misquote the scriptures (some research) then you introduce Peter Costello as exhibit "A" for christiantity and Hillsong as a model Church?

Give us a break - just think for a moment where would the world be today if not for Christian Charitable Organisations? (And I am not just talking about money here)

If not for Christian Charity you wouldn't be able to walk in down town Anycity for the bodies will be covering the sidewalks. our social security system (n Oz) will instantly collapse.

Governments better continue to do what they do worst and stay out of Christ's Church. Jesus' Kingdom is above all earthly nations and principalities. So don't confuse the two. I don't know of any Government that is truly Christian - do you?

Jesus did not come to make us healthier or wealthier - but to give us real life - real food, real water, real hope,...

Compassion or charity are just the bi-products (James) of our faith in Him. He said the poor will always be among you...let the dead bury their dead, etc...

It is NOT the giving that makes us better Christ followers (brownie points). But because we follow Him that we want to give and are compelled to tell the best love (compassion) story human kind will ever hear.

We live in a fallen and imperfect world. God is well aware of that. Furthermore He doesn’t expect us to fix it. We are making a real mess of things but he is patient and watchful…

For the Christians this is a rehearsal for the real life eternal in God’s presence. And this is what Jesus was implying in the Matthew text:

Ignore Jesus and he will ignore you when you come to His door and beg Him for entry…

So don’t judge perfection by referring to imperfections.

PS- To Pericles - this is not a cope out mate. There are true Christians and religious people of all sorts. Big distinctio

Pericles... well observed.. (the HillSong charitable activities) which is one reason I continue to enjoy your participation on OLO.. you do seem to have a fair minded approach to most issues.

Our own congregation is sending some of our members to Uganda to build a home in a couple of weeks for some orphans.. They will go at their own expense, offset by any fundraising we can manage in the mean time.

The problem with determining 'Christian' values in relation to assylum seekers is that the easy path is usually taken, and they are all lumped into one basket for convenient promotion of 'Socialist Alliance' or.. "Migration Agent" vested interests.

As Philo pointed out, some he personally knew were in flagrant violation of our known laws, and were subsequently arrested, interned and deported. Nothing wrong with that at all. Were they denied food ? shelter ? were they beaten, bullied and taunted ? I doubt it.
No..they were 'detained' and prevented from conTINuing their illegal stay.

For some reason, those who have 'country shopped' seem to become the most 'promotable' possibly because they have gone the furthest against our laws, and are likely to generate the most publicity as their cases are handled. (i.e. publicity for the Socialist Alliance/Migration Agent/Naive hangers on industry)

Pericles, the words of Jesus may have been passed on by men, but they were passed on very faithfully. Jesus mostly spoke in parables and easy to remember short sayings. No doubt he repeated them many times in his 3 yr ministry, to the point where they became internalized firmly in the disciples memories.

Donna: Israels calling. Isaiah49:6

"I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Have you, as a Jew been doing this ? if not, why not :)

For the Record.

At last count 81% of views said "Easter has religious significance for them" on a foxtel survey.

Lets go the next step, and make Jesus-The Christ the significant One in all our hearts and minds

Good for you, Donna, and good for many of the Posters supporting you. How much today's people controlling our world need so much of your reasoning Donna. We might call it reasoning for today's world needs so much of it to cure the hatred that is consumimg us. It might be said that it is a hatred that is being practised from both sides consumed by a misguidance of true faith. And we might add the sound reasoning from which comes wisdom and understanding.

Islam is said by some thinkers to be in a Dark Ages similar to what Christianity was before Peter Abelard and St Thomas Aquinas saw the light in the 10 to 11 centuries AD.

Should we be ashamed that Abelard and Aquinas had to be shown the light of true understanding through Golden Greek reasoning that sadly both modern Islam and much of modern Christianity have now thrown out. How tragic it is that many Lutheran and Roman Catholic bishops remained quiet during the more recent horrors of Nazism and Hitlerism.

Donna, it is so wonderful that you have brought forth expressions from many of our Posters not so much about Christianity, but more the teachings of the young Jesus, the Sermon on the Mount being so typical and so much needed in our world today. Helping to bring thoughts about sharing the blame with our neighbours, and even the famous saying of Socrates, "Out with the Gods and in with the Good", because surely a Good God would not like what many of us are up to these days. Both sides of this rotten world conflict, at that

Well written, Ms. Jacobs. I call myself a Satanic Feminist. I'm sure that moniker speaks differently to all. I grew up in the deep south of the United States. The home to Southern Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Pentecostal, all labeled Fundamental Christian sects. What I observed about the Christian religion made me turn away as I saw more hypocrisy that compassion, more bigotry than forgiveness, more fear than trust.

My values came from living life and having a desire to be a better human being. No religion or god can do that for an individual. When I look at the world and the conflicts caused by the battle over religious ideology, I want to cry. The waste of time and resources is a crime against humanity.

Dear Brushy
your posts are always warmhearted, which is relfective of your age. As my own years advance, I tend to 'feel' similarly, but I believe we must distinguish between this, and other realities which are not so willing to submit themselves to our aging generosity of spirit.

One such reality is Islam.

While you refer to the transformation you claim took place in Acquinas re Christianity, it is crucial to point out that this alleged transformation did not change the impact of the fundamental truths of the faith, or their correctly interpreted shaping of behavior.

I see nothing in Aquinas alleged change which will alter "Love your neighbour" or..the teaching or example of Christ. When Jesus said to the disciples... (Luke24:44ff)

["This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."]

He showed the specific focus of this in the next verse:

[45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things"]

In the same way, no 'enlightenment' in Islam will change "Fight them wherever you find them" "Slay the idolaters" etc...

The reason is, both are tied intimately to Jesus and Mohammed. You see, 'fight them' in Islam is not 'contextual' it is abiding. It would not be an 'enlightenment' to depart from this, it would be apostasy.

Jesus gave us "Love God, Love your neighbour, through a relationship with the Father through me"

Mohammed gave us "Worship Allah, Accept me as his messenger, and here is the RULE BOOK of Law, on which your society must be based and militarily defended and extended" (The 'extension' is more from his 'Sunnah/example')

Can you (and others) see the difference here and how this would impact on followers of each faith today ?

Great article.. compassion is what we need, and I guess if some religions encourage that, then that's good, but no one religion owns the concept. Indeed, fundamentalists often seem to be remarkably short on it. Also interesting to see how our religous posters here stack up on our immigration policy.

hellothere,
I am not sure what you mean by your comment: "Also interesting to see how our religous posters here stack up on our immigration policy."

I support the legal immigration of skilled migrants and our refugee intake from compatable countries. In fact I live in an area of a large Sudanese intake and we have several churches supporting them.

Also in the congreations I attend we have a large intake of Koreans and Asians. One of my closest friends is a Papuan family who lives nearby. Our Church supports a local man now working in the Refugee camps in Austria teaching language and distributing supplies to newcomers. We support families teaching farming in Indonesia, and nursing in the remote areas of the Philippines. Generally speaking I support the principle that Australia must retain its culture otherwise it will become a third world culture as unskilled people become the majority. We must be exporting skills and expertise to developing countries to assist them to push back the desert. Rather than us merely becoming a 100 years hense another poor desert country.

Thanks for the compliments, Boaz, but it is so interesting that I have been complimented much more since trying to finishg schooling in my old age. Looks like in that time I have changed from a possibly ignorant smart-ares bushie into a bleeding heart - almost a greenie, I guess.

But though a few years of study in retirement got me a post-grad in the general social sciences, including honours in International Relations dealing with Third World problems, I must say that I might have become thoughtful enough to believe that as our society advances - hoping by means of the good not the greed, there is the urgent need to mix faith with reason as both Peter Abelard and Thomas Aquinas attempted to do, really pointing the West towards the liberal democracy we are trying possibly too hard to over capitalise right now. As the 18th century German social philosopher Max Weber quotes in his "Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism", though capitalism needs freedom for success, it also needs lawful guidance to control the greed that is the natural impetus for that success. Meaning, of course, in capitalised ompetition.

Adam Smith later said almost exactly the same thing.

So there again we see the need for reason, Boaz, as the young Jesus surely used it in the insight that helped him produce the Sermon on the Mount. Possibly we might say that strong insight comes from Above, but surely a bit of nose to the grindstone helps besides.

Anyway, cobber, thanks again for the welcoming remarks. Always helps.

George C, WA - Busbred

What I meant Philo is that some religious posters seem to espouse compassion towards refugees (presumably an extension of compassion towards humanity generally) while others are more inclined to a hard-line approach.

I find this interesting in the context of recent media articles about how some strands of christian fundamentalism (prosperity gospel etc) are not actually in tune with the most important teachings of jesus about loving thy neigbour and caring for the weak etc. It seems to me that although I am entirely unreligous that I can co-exist with and respect people who regard compassion as a core value. If there is good in religion, this is where it comes from. On the other hand, I have difficulty getting along with those who lach compassion and use religion as justification for imposing rigid, unreasoned bigotries on others. This is where the bad aspects of religion become uppermost.

"Peter Costello is fond of speaking about Christian values. It has puzzled me."
Why, he is a money changer.

haha! sorry, it just made me laugh.. probably cos' it's completely true..

Donna
You are referring to the New Testament.
Peter Costello and co. are referring to the Old Testament - you know the eye for an eye stuff.
By selecting pieces of the old testament any action or inaction can be jsutified.

If you had bothered to read Peter Costello's speach the values he refers to is respect for our laws and way of life, not some driven on an eye for an eye.

Thought I’d check what Wiki had to say about these “Christian values”.

The biblical teachings of Christ include

1. worship of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."

2. fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder."

3. renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also."

4. renunciation of violence: "If a man strike you on one cheek, turn the other cheek."

5. forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

6. unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

In the 21st Century, the phrase "Christian values" was used by many conservative groups to describe the following values,

• censorship of sexual content, especially in movies and on television

• the desirability of laws against induced abortion

• the desirability of laws against birth control

• sexual abstinence outside of marriage

• the desirability of laws against same-sex marriage

• the desirability of reinstituting faculty-led prayer in taxpayer-funded schools"

While there is some merit in these ‘values’ they are very proscriptive and discriminatory. Not many Christians to this forum appear to follow many of these values at all.
Especially numbers 3, 4, 5 and 6 – particularly in regard to non-Christians.

As for the 21st Century addition – it’s ALL about sex; nothing about equality, compassion or respect.

Cont.

Prefer more expansive and inclusive Human Values, such as those espoused by International Foundation of Human Values.

“A few key principles compose the foundation of human values upon which societies have been established.

• The innate dignity of human life

• Respect and consideration for the "other"

• The interconnection between humankind and the environment and thus the need to care for and preserve the earth

• The importance of integrity and service

• An attitude of non-violence

• The individual and collective quest for peace and happiness”

Simple and succinct: there is room for all races, creeds and genders here – and respect for our planet (environment).

I thought I’d find that modern Christian values would have more in common with human rights. Apparently not so, if the above mentioned is what Peter Costello means by Christian values, all I can say is his values relate only marginally to all Australians.

I’d be interested to hear from those Christian posters who regularly flout values 3, 4, 5, & 6 to explain why. Wouldn’t mind betting that 1 & 2 have been conveniently ignored on occasion when circumstances ‘arise’.

You hit the nail right on the head Scout, you only have to read a few posts by the zealots to see they change like the wind. Its hard when you are dealing with such infantile minds, that dwell within antiquity. You realise their incapable of seeing beyond the mirror in their heads.

As for 3,4,5,6, they don't count. Jesus died for all their sins, so their blameless. Theres two values they uphold vigorously, lying and irresponsibility for their actions.

Its no good showing these fools truth, they avoid it like the plague. The values of this country were forged on the battle fields of the world during the last century and in the paddocks and bush of this land. It started at eureka, there the churches stayed with the authorities as they always do, against the people. What was fought for wasn't any form of religious values or concepts, it was to keep this country free from the suppression of sick ideologies, the sickest being monotheism.

The only religious value that monotheists stand for are, we're right, your wrong and we'll kill you to prove it. The religious are so lacking in veracity, they try to take credit for anything good in the world, then go about destroying it. Thats why religion continues to respond to the world with suppression. They have no basis of fact, so have to resort to violence to enforce their lies.

Today my values are with relatives and friends that died whilst protecting this country. The mates injured and psychologically lost from the effects of their unselfish actions. Not the insipid religious cowards of the world who sit in judgement on all, yet don't have the courage to grow up and be real.

Today I think of the people killed at Port Arthur 20 years ago, and the dear veteran cobber that left us recently. Today our little community also grieves for the loss of our 3 friends drowned on Sunday. We won't pray, we will remember and salute the values they displayed during their lives.

The alchemist/Scout: How lucky we all are to have, not one, but two such fine, noble, self-effacing, humble thoroughly decent scribes. We can all learn so much from you paragons of utter perfection. Don't you both just instinctively know just what kind of people we are who dare think different from you. No good hiding our imperfections as they are on show to two clever clogs, as you both are.
Funny that I have seen and noted in my long life that those who condemn others for varied faults and imperfections invariably have the same faults and imperfections. Of course not either of you two magnificence's - I repent in ashes and sackcloth for even thinking such total blasphemy. May you both go on to greater heights and continue to lead and educate us slobs and degenerates. Oh! so cringely humbly, numbat

Numbat it is pointless getting involved with such ignorant drivel. They have never been involved in the life of any Church or community, so they don't have a clue.
Scout says; "As for the 21st Century addition – it’s ALL about sex; nothing about equality, compassion or respect."

I wonder who runs these welfare stores: Salvation Army, St Vincents DePaul, AngliCare, Wesley Mission, Compassion Australia etc? There are thousands of them; those atheists certainly got the community needs covered.

Who runs Life counselling, family relationship counselling, grief counselling, divorce recovery, drug rehabiliation, youth off the streets settlements, prostitution exodus, job search, nursing homes etc obviously the churches lack any capacity of compassion so they must be run by atheists. I've visited and worked in a few, too good to be run by Christians. No the atheists have the new religion that is showing the way in compassion, and respect for hurting people. You see their institutions in every town park, with the sign "Male" "Female". Scout and Alchemist they have got all the truth.

Scout,

Judging from the impulsive responses you got so far, you have hit a nerve.

At a human base level we are all the same, we share the same needs, desires, passions, etc. A Christian is not necessarily a “good person" by worldly standards. We all break the 10 commandments regularly.

3. renunciation of worldly goods: Paraphrasing Jesus: “you cannot serve two masters (God and money or…)” “where your mind is so is your heart also” “Do not waste time on the perishable but focus on the eternal things from above”.
The problem is not the accumulation of goods but the “preoccupation”with them.

4. renunciation of violence: "If a man strike you on one cheek, turn the other cheek." – Agree this is hard.

5. forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I am a ‘forgive and forget’ person but I will stand for what is right, defend my family, country, etc…

6. unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" – I do a lot of that (e.g. muslim friends) but unconditional love is also any 'giving' without expecting anything in return.

Christians do not behave as the “world” would anticipate. To model Christ is our goal but it’s humanly impossibility and thank God not a prerequisite for salvation.

Jesus told his disciples: “love one another like I have loved you, by this people will know that you are my disciples”.

I implore you to judge Christianity not based on “us” but on the perfect person of Jesus himself.

Christians are sinners like other unsaved humans. However our moral values come directly from God, and not through other people – BIG difference.

Take marriage for example. To us believers it is a divine institution between a man and a woman ordained by God our creator.

All the ensuing implications like adultery, bigamy, pre-marital sex, pornography; same gender relations (and marriage ) is out, not because we are repulsed by it all, but because it was never God’s plan for his creation.

Philo
The main thrust of my post was to show that many Christians believe they hold the moral high ground – just for being Christian!

A secondary jab was aimed squarely at many of the Christian posters to OLO who do not ‘turn the other cheek’, are clearly more interested in their own wealth than paying employees a decent living wage, who continually judge others and so on. See very little evidence of Christian values exhibited on OLO by self-professed Christians. If your religion is so wonderful - where are the examples? Ever heard of leading by example? Every time these 'lapses' are pointed out, the Christian posters say "we're only human, but following Christ is the way". Hmmmmm, here on OLO you have an opportunity to 'light the way' (sermons,lectures and biblical quotes don't cut it) and yet you never do.

On social welfare issues, I acknowledge there are many Christian organisations that help many people –

However, “Life counselling, family relationship counselling, grief counselling, divorce recovery, drug rehabilitation (sic), youth off the streets settlements, prostitution exodus, job search, nursing homes etc” are not the exclusive preserve of Christians.

Many of these and similar organisations are run and staffed by non-christians. I have both worked in a few and had call to access some of the services.

Christians do not hold the monopoly on social welfare, charity and moral values.

That you become so defensive when this fact is pointed out to you, reveals a great deal about you and your insecurities.

There are good and bad in all of humanity. Respect, decency, compassion are HUMAN values and apply to all of us, regardless of race, religion or gender.

Peter Costello thought he was speaking for all Australians based on his religious beliefs – therefore he wasn’t speaking for all of us – only the people (good and bad) who believe in Christianity.

This type of exclusionary talk and belief is a value Australia and the world can do without.

Scout,
I do not see how I must report to you for my private life! However here are a few facts. I am a semi retired pensioner who supports orphan children in Rwanda and India every month and have done for the past 30 years.

I with 8 other men from my Church plus Business men, professional drug counsellors, doctors and psychologists from other churches 14 years ago set up a drug rehabiliation farm in NSW where I contributed $64,000 from my superannuation towards its funding, and 4 days each fortnight for seven years until I had an accident. By this time it was established. Where possible I still assist with the care of youth on street with problems.

How about a report from you?

It is a pity you have not read exactly what Peter Costello actually did say rather than presume his intent by your speculative anti-Christian agenda.

Philo

I have not ever questioned your private life, not remotely interested - get over yourself.

The fact that you become so defensive and take it so personally when your religion is subjected to criticism speaks volumes about you.

I am questioning what Peter Costellos version of christian values really mean. In case you have forgotten this is what the thread is about.

Humane values have been around a lot longer than christianity, otherwise we would have died out as a species long before the creation of formal religions such as the big three from the Middle East.

Like many people, I too do my fair share of welfare work (both as professional, donor and as volunteer).

Another thing you have forgotten is that we still have freedom of speech in this country. I am quite entitled to express my opinion, that is what this forum is all about.

Fact: people do not have to be christian to hold upstanding human and humane values to do good work.

That is my point.

Coach, “I implore you to judge Christianity not based on “us” but on the perfect person of Jesus himself.”

No problems there, he's dead, how more perfect can you get. Thats god s plan isn't it death by the most violent and confusing manner

“Christians are sinners like other unsaved humans. However our moral values come directly from God, and not through other people – BIG difference.”

They certainly do, death and destruction, the values christians exhibit to those they force to god.

Sadly Philo, the further time goes on the more you exhibit the true nature of monotheists. You try to separate yourself from the works of religion, yet are heavily involved in ritual and the demeaning of people.

Values can be seen in all life, animals have never heard of god, yet they exhibit values and ethics that far out way any espoused by monotheists. The people I know in the work I'm involved with, have rejected religion, as we see every day people rejected by their god and in some cases their church. Dealing with terminal people and their families is fraught with problems religion creates for them. I talk to many who are devastated their god has forsaken them in their hour of need, as they watch their loved one needlessly die with no help from the ideology they bow down to.

Philo, in the years that I have been doing this work, I have yet to see one positive outcome that can be attributed to the belief in god. Those most at peace when the time comes, are those that have no god, just enjoyed their lives and are sad its over. So I stick to values that animals use, they always prove to be the best. I think 30 years within the church, as well as growing up in a religious community gives me an understanding of how it works. Again you clutch at straws when you see reality pushing your delusions away.

Alchemist

Good point about animals. My German Shepherd saved me from being attacked and a cat once woke me in the middle of the night to warn me of an intruder. Amazing stuff. Plus the unconditional love and trust.

These are true values. I wonder if that is what P C meant? Somehow I doubt it. He was very judgemental when he used an analogy about removing his shoes to enter a mosque. Why couldn't he have used another analogy that didn't involve a slur at Islam. It was very clear what he meant - "non-christians not welcome in Australia".

I was born here, I believe in compassion, acceptance, respect and charity towards others. People are free to believe or not in a deity, but when they start to force their beliefs on me, I object. I object to the lectures, sermons and hellfire threats.

Philo thought it was necessary to divulge personal details about himself in an attempt to convince that he does hold some values. I can only form an opinion on self-proclaimed christians by their BEHAVIOUR on OLO. Anyone can claim to be a peach if they want.

However, when they choose to judge me for my beliefs, demean me by personal insults, threaten me with hellfire or in BD's case claim I am greedy for desiring a living income for unskilled workers, and so on, I become cynical to the extreme about these so-called "christian values".

The Alchemist,

Jesus is not dead; I spoke with him this morning. He even asked about you.

I sympathise with the way you and others feel about religions, monotheism, God, gods, or whatever… I would - and probably was once - thinking that way. Humans think that they are all-knowing and self-sufficient, and don’t need some external “deity” to compromise their otherwise perfect life.

You speak of animals and their high “values”. I love animals (some behave horribly too) but I know who created them and enabled them to display their beauty for us humans.

It’s all a matter of perception I guess. You dismiss God from your radar – but you can’t avoid His creation.

Have you contributed to the decision to be born? How can you not see God’s hand upon this miracle of life? Where does life come from? How can two cells blend and develop perfectly into a human form? All coincidence to you? A big cosmic accident - give or take a few billion years? Even if it were evolution – what started it?

Your choice for not believing in God does not change the fact that he exists. There are millions of people - more intelligent than you also - who have that certitude. So your wisdom is sadly robbing you from the full life – because someone or something hurt you in the past and you never got over it.

We know each other enough by now to be more direct. I am not patronising you or anyone else. I fail miserably to express my true love and compassion for people, especially on this limited OLO medium.

But I truly know that to live according to the giver of life is the only true way – as hard and tortuous as it can be – to know beyond any doubt that death is not final, that God spared me the final judgement, and my fear of death is no more, because a better life awaits me.