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The Forum > Article Comments > The Bali two: deserving of a fair trial and punishment > Comments

The Bali two: deserving of a fair trial and punishment : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 12/4/2006

It is a simplistic mindset that justifies the death sentence for Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan.

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Have a look at what the same so-called professor says about aspects of the Cole Enquiry.

What does he teach his students? Don't worry about ethics, you guys. Don't worry about honesty. Don't worry about justice. Don't worry about competence. Don't worry about political integrity. Just concern yourselves with your own bottom line and that of your clients, just as long as they are prepared to pay you enough.

What do we say about lawyers? 99% of them give all the others a bad name!
Posted by Rex, Thursday, 13 April 2006 12:26:56 PM
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All you rednecks consider this. You obviously want us to execute drug-dealers, but do you also want us to effectively reverse the burden of proof like they do in Indonesia, so it's the defendants who have the burden of proving innocence rather than the prosecution having to prove guilt. Does it matter then if we jail innocent people for 20 years or hang them because they couldn't find who put the drugs in their luggage? Would you prefer we adopt the standard of proof used in Schapelle's case?
Posted by rogindon, Thursday, 13 April 2006 2:32:20 PM
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Injustices leading to severe penalties can happen in Australian courts too.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1251

And in case you hadn't noticed, this thread is about the two men convicted of being organisers in the so-called Bali Nine case and not about Schapelle Corby. If the topic of Schapelle did come up for discussion, various people may have different opinions. But does anyone seriously doubt the guilt of the Bali Nine?
Posted by Rex, Thursday, 13 April 2006 5:31:00 PM
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To Mr Rogindon.

Yep, I wish that my country had the intestinal fortidude to kill the people who are mass murdering Australian teenagers and adolescents. As a former soldier, I do not se any difference between killing the external enemies of my people and killing the internal ones, except that I might have a lot more respect for the front line soldiers of my people’s external enemies.

Whether reversing the burden of proof is appropriate is approprite is up to the Indonesian legal system. I do not see where it is inferior to ours. Here in Sydney, the standard way for Muslim race hate rape artists to get off scot free, is simply to appeal and appeal their verdicts, until their distressed victims can not take it any more and refuse to give evidence again. I don't see how this fact makes the Australian legal system superior to the Indonesian one.

Andrew Chan and that Sukumaran character are as guilty as hell. You know it and I know it. People like this, who are not even Australians to my way of thinking, are doing incalculable harm to OUR society and murdering over a thousand young Australians every year. I find it incredible that you have more sympathy for imported mass murderers and serious criminals than concern over the protection of your own people. I sincerely hope that your house gets burgled in the near future by some desperate junkie, and maybe then you might wake up.

As for Chapelle Corby, with the arrest of her brother for cannabis cultivation and drug pushing, I would have thought that everybody by now knows that she is guilty too. If you want to believe in the fairy tale of her innocence, then dream on.
Posted by redneck, Friday, 14 April 2006 5:53:10 AM
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Ozbib,

Bit of an anarchist are we? Don't believe that anyone should conform with any rules, eh? Sheesh.

I'm a big believer in civil rights, particularly as expressed by the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html). Apply the first few to Camp X-Ray.

But let's look at a particular example of human rights.The United States has a Bill of Rights. These 'inalienable' rights include the right to "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Let's look at the second - Liberty. If all Americans have the right to 'Liberty' then why do they need gaols? Simple, under certain circumstances, human rights may be suspended. In 14 (I think) US States, even the right to 'Life' can be suspended.

The Bali Nine knew without any doubt, that the penalty for drug trafficing in Indonesia could include the suspension of the "Right to Life", as allowed for in the UN's Convention of Civil an Political Rights.

They gambled with their lives and lost.
Posted by Narcissist, Friday, 14 April 2006 11:45:36 AM
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I wonder how many Australian lives have already been saved by the fate of these two?

How many similar plans by small-time would-be drug-runners have been nipped in the bud, or delayed for a while? As an example of what does happen, as opposed to a hypothetical worst-case scenario, it surely has to have had some impact on even the feeblest of criminal minds.

And if the importation of dangerous drugs has been interrupted even for a short while, how many impressionable and weak-willed youths have been prevented, through lack of opportunity, from taking that first step.

I don't know the answer any more than you do. But I believe that the statistics tell us that when supplies are impacted, the street price rises. So it may not stop the addict, who simply needs to nick a few more DVD players, or whatever is today's druggie currency, to keep going. But the rise in the threshold price might just act as an additional deterrent.

My response to the article itself is simple: we need to be very careful about criticising another country for its laws, simply because some members of our society disagree with them. It is cultural arrogance of the highest order, and will continue to make enemies of our neighbours until we learn to respect their sovereignty in all its manifestations.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 14 April 2006 2:40:42 PM
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