Hi all

Narcissist (post 2:50:19 PM 10/3/06)

I could make many comments about the Code of Law reputedly dating from the era of the Babylonian King HAMMURABI - about 1700BC. But one principle within that law was drastically dissimilar to the British Common Law which is the platform for Australian law. Hammurabi rarely used incarceration - preferring execution or mutilations as punishment. From memory, & strangely, that epoch also saw monogamy as a virtue. That certainly isn't a preferred option for Islamic tradition.
(10/3/06)

mickijo (post 3:15:50 PM 10/3/06)

Surely you realise that a Secular Humanistic sentiment, which usurped all prior religious euphoria, meant, that from about 1975 onwards, Australia began to lose focus on its history & its destiny.

Political correctness stifles our ability to be objective. A democracy is a "sitting target" for those who seek to change the political climate without a civil war.
(10/3/06)

sajo (post 3:41:05 PM 10/3/06)

Hi, you may need to go through a fast learning-curve.

".. most of Shariah law is already covered under Australian law ..". That is not true - examine the countries where Sharia law applies. A loyal Muslim could not possibly, & ultimately, accept laws which differ from those bound into Islamic text & tradition.

Islamic countries (Dar Al-Islam) impose a taxation burden (Dhimma) upon non-Muslim residents.

".. most have come .. to live in a western society with equal rights ..". That may or may not be a true statement. What can be certain is that those who migrated came to escape elements of a life unpleasant to them. That could easily be Muslim brother fighting Muslim brother - they do that all the time.

Law, rules, regulations & decisions can be made without the approval of the majority within a democracy. When did you ever approve a pay-increase for a politician? The majority may not wish to do a certain thing, but the law over-rides their wishes often.
(10/3/06)

Cheers all

Hi all

hoppa (post 4:13:21 PM 10/3/06)

Criticise a philosophy or religio-cultural beliefs if you like. Let's not insult ethnic/racial groups.

I have several multi-racial friends. They're not as you insinuate.

Irfan can't change his ethnicity, & he isn't a law-breaker. He can change religions - & I hope he does.

On behalf of those insulted: I find your post racially offensive. I hope that you apologise - "Pakis", "Lebs". Disgraceful!
(10/3/06)

bigmal (post 4:40:03 PM 10/3/06)

I hope that you aren't racially prejudiced - as I suspect "hoppa" is.

Wherever mosques flourish there will be challenges to Western thinking. Australia is currently a land of Dar Al-Harb.
(10/3/06)

keith (post 5:06:35 PM 10/3/06)

We'll all wait for you
(11/3/06)

Arjay (post 6:02:37 PM 10/3/06)

The 2% makes a big difference. But Islam & Judeo-Christianity 'enjoy' a 50-mile wide schism.

Yep, there are some 'nasties' in the OT. But the Qur'an is briefer than the NT, & it is crammed with many more 'nasties'.
(11/3/06)

MikeM (post 6:34:09 PM 10/3/06)

I have not forgotten how brutal human beings, 'masquerading' as religious zealots, instigated warfare.

But the Judeo-Christian OT talks more about God's (Yahweh's) wrath, whilst the NT predominantly imparts non-violence.

The Qur'an 'instructs' Muslims to kill, mutilate & subjugate non-believers.

As to Timothy McVEIGH: I don't know his religious beliefs prior to, during or post the event. But a logical-thinking, Bible-believing Christian could never condone violence - especially unprovoked violence.
(11/3/06)

BOAZ_David (post 8:01:19 PM 10/3/06)

Good to see your post!
(11/3/06)

kalweb (post 8:45:34 PM 10/3/06)

Islam does teach that charity & mercy (should be extended) ... to disadvasntaged Muslims.

Dhimmitude extended to monotheistic non-Muslims living in a Muslim country isn't mercy. That person is a 2nd-class citizen - relegated below the status of a Muslim woman.

That last paragraph is certainly all-revealing, isn't it? Australia gives Muslims socio-economic & religious freedom. In return, many reject our generosity, steadfastly retaining their religio-cultural constraints suffered previously.

I seek understanding of Islam. But to comprehend what to avoid where/when it is destructive & detrimental to our Australian way-of-life.
(11/306)

Cheers all

Multiculturalism isnt about us embracing religions or laws belonging to people who come here to make a new home.
Its about tolerating their choice of religion & who they are - emplasis on TOLERATING!
BUT
if new arrivers break the laws of the land they will be treated the same as us & sentenced by a court of law.

Any other interpretation seems bizarre to me.

European / Anglo / Asian Australians are unlikely to convert to Muslim or any other new arrivers religion.

It seems bizarre that middle eastern people come here as refugees to escape persecution but then want to impose their religion & laws on the residents.

Maybe this attitude is so for some middle eastern arrivers to our shores but its is surely a strange paradox & will not be well received by 90% of Aussies.

The negativity against Muslim people is unfortunate and mostly ill-informed. Migration brings many religious groups and cultures .Instead of Muslim Middle Eastern people and Africans, Asians should we just bring in the Christian people as migrants? Would they be more like Aussie's ? Native African Christians or Christians from PNG , Asians etc . They may be spiritually aligned with practicing Christians but will they be more likely to be like Aussies? I can assure you there is little difference in the cultures whatever religion people are. Christian and Muslim Arabs are still Arabs and have similiar cultures regardless of religion. Average people from developing countries are generally conservative, women are marginalised because of difficult economic conditions and the societies are generally partriachal - Christian, Jewish and Muslim. Extremist religious people(minorities)won’t want to be in anything except a complete religious existence in any country.

Someone 'please explain' to me exactly what sort of Australian culture is it that Muslim's can't fit into, getting drunk possibly? Many Lebanese go to footy and fishing and families have picnics and parties etc.

Regarding Christianity a friends daughter attended Hillsong Church in Sydney's northwest and was told she should only be friends with other Christians who accept Jesus etc and nobody else. I have also been to a Church of Christ meeting where the faithful where indoctrinated with the advice that women should follow and obey their husbands! So does that mean that Christians are rejecting mainstream Australian values! What are Australian values? I say egalitariansim is the key. A fair go ! I have seen much of the class distinctions of other cultures Middle Eastern, Indian, sub-continent regardless of religion. China is mostly Buddhist but has one of te worst human rights records in the world. Executions, forced abortions etc. But you can’t blame religion for that, that's culture, it's against the religion. Treat other fairly and equally no matter what their background rich, poor, black white etc... That's the values I fight for.

Hey, Irfan.

If almost all of the Muslim's in Australia regard Muslims who wish to impose Sharia Law on the rest of the world as "fringe groups" who are besmirching their good name, how is it that thousands of Muslims can march in Sydney over a French decision to ban headscaves in French schools, yet "Australian" Muslims react with a deafening silence when the Taliban violates your "Sufism" and imposes Sharia Law on Afghanistan by force of arms?

Where was the outcry from "moderate" Muslims when the Taliban blew up the 2,000 year old Babiyan Buddhas? If "Australian" Muslims regard Muslim fundamentalists as loonies, why does there appear to me so much support for these loonies in the Muslim world?

Your views on the compatability of Australian law and Sharia Law are fatuous unles you denounce those aspects of Sharia Law that you know are completely at odds with Australian law. But this you will never do.

I KNEW IT ! Redneck.. whenever I enter the forum at this time and see something like "4 hours ago" for a comment, I can almost certainly predict it will be you ! :) what kind of work do you do mate ? Do you sleep ? your comments are often around 4.00am.. general curiosity....

Irfan's references to 'Sufism' is his attempt to put some 'heart' into Islam but there is one thing about it which is commendable: It seeks to emphasize the love of God, and our relationship with Him.

Sadly, calling people 'armchair nazi's' does not seem to relfect that love for which sufism claims its fame.

I suggest that the problem with sufism is that it bypasses Christ the Son of God, and in fact rejects Him by reducing God manifest, incarnate, to a mere prophet.

True 'sufism' will only ever be found/experienced in our relationship with God through Christ. Seeking to come to God without being reconciled to Him through Christ is like trying to goto Sydney from Melbourne via Adelaide. But that illustration suggests you might arrive, albeit the 'long way'. No, apart from Christ Irf...there is no salvation and thus no true sufism.

We are unlikely to see any great Sufism revival among Muslims simply because of its cult/fringe/heretical status.

So that leaves us with the dry, formal, legal barren desert wasteland of Sharia.

We reject it, and declare it totally irrelevant to Australia. Not even worth wasting time discussing apart from it bring non Muslims of various persuasions (Including Christian and non Christian) closer together and united in their unbending passion to be free of such an evil distortion of life.

The only value of this discussion as I see it, is in our on-going clarification of the nature of 'The Enemy' and the way he thinks.
This will help us to know what we are contending against.

My major concern is that those without faith, may not have the stomach for the coming conflict, because their life framework does not lend itself to being passionate for anything other than themselves.