'oblivion is better than playing your gods games' - I assume by this that you find no joy in life? This is the ultimate proof of the hate involved in athieism, I guess there isn't really much to say once we see that you are antilife, but here goes.

Perhaps a better analogy would be scooba diving in the most beautiful great barrier reef, plus you are not in any direct danger as such, so perhaps rather than drowning a better example is being stranded far from your parents but with plenty of other people.

Suddenly that so called evil god has not pushed you into a dangerous situation, but rather a paradise. When he dropped you of he warned you and all the others to try and live well in community and to look after each other. He said that if anyone is cruel or antisocial or was destructive in the community you would be staying there, rather than coming home.

You decided to look only after yourself and went and lived secretively on the other side of the island, partly to get away from the christians who you are prejudiced against. The christians had no trouble living together, or with the 2% of Muslims there, they might not agree on much, but both cultures are totally imbued with manners and neighbourly love. Since OLO is not available, everyone gets on fine (speaking face to face rather than impersonally).

When the boat comes back you are still of hiding and seeing as you have not lived in community and loved your neighbour no one remembers you to look for you, there is a storm coming so they don't have time anyway.

regarding your points - Ofcourse we can become equipped to deal with the totality, through wisdom and life in the spirit.

fide mae, changing the context of the discussion does not really address the issue. Coach used a specific example which I responded to, if I have to keep following a moving target we will waste a lot of our own time and add further annoyance to others who are already heartily sick of religious arguments. I don't believe that your example bears any real relation to the kind of gospel preached by most of the evangelical church (nor much of the rest of the church). I'm trying to address mainstream christain claims in my responses to coach, BD and others who continue to use this forum to attack everybody elses beliefs while claiming a special place for their own.

I'm most definately not anti-life, I love it with a passion and don't want it to end while quality of life is an option but if I really believed it was a choice between
- a package of some years here followed by an eternity of either worshiping the christain god or torment
- oblivion
then the latter has something to be said for it. We make similar choices daily, whenever we deny ourselves something we like because the consequences of that thing are not worth it. I don't eat every piece of chocolate available to me because the consequences of eating too much chocolate are more than I wish to accept, that does not mean that I don't like chocolate.

I'm convinced enough that what awaits is some years here followed by oblivion. I've got over the reality of my own mortality and intend to make the most of what remains while it I can.

I'm not sure that it is fair to blame OLO for all the conflict between christains and muslims - Graham might be able to tell us how active they were in Serbia/Croatia some time ago or how many of the members are based in the villages in Indonesia. I suspect that OLO has had a fairly low profile in both yet some christains and some muslims have shown ability to have conflict without OLO.

R0bert

"If the test mark is 100% everybody should have a fighting chance at the start...the test is rigged."

The fact that Jesus was a human proves your point wrong, although Jesus was the son of God, he was totally human like you and me, either of us could live a reletively blameless life if we were dedicated as Jesus was. This discussion is also beside the point, Jesus came to heal. All we need recognise is that only God can be totally holy, this world is not a test but a lesson. (your statement assumes it is a test)

"original sin passed on down through the generations. we stand condemed by Adams sin "

we do not stand condemned by original sin, but in need of redemption/salvation/sanctification, if we were condemned these would not be possible. If you think you are a whole person with no need for betterment then I guess you could argue this point.

"Basically the christain gospel seems to boil down to suck up to the christain god or get punished for ever. "

Christians do not suck up to God, but are ok with themselves to such a degree they have no problem recognising the flaws in human nature which are not found in the perfect God. Christianity is the only religion where its God asks its adherents to work with God as partners rather than slaves (islam=submission=slavery).

"I see no reason to be grateful . takes me to sea, pushes me off the boat then offers to rescue me so long as I recognise how great they are .. silly I was for swimming .. out"

I have no problem in thanking God for my life and the life of creation AND for offering to save us and offer us everlasting life as well. Just as I would not want to live with a person such as yourself with no morals, God does not wish to live for ever with people without morals. Big deal, as long as you recognise that heaven is His realm, how can you expect to set the rules?

fida mae

Where do you get the idea that R0bert has no morals?

Really hanging out for your answer.

I have been reading his posts for a very long time now and if anything he strikes the reader as a person with very high moral standards.

Can you point out clearly just where he has been immoral?

Thank you

Scout, I rather suspect that she is just exercising her freedom to insult. It may be that fida mae's "morals" are arbitrary rules handed down by God in which case her comment is true. I prefer the term ethics because morals are too often associated with those arbitrary commands of god rather than an actual values system. Thanks for your support, I take my ethics fairly seriously.

I would also like to know the context fida mae made the comment in. There are certainly plenty of the christain Gods commands that I have not broken in action, the eyes beat me on some but I'm in good company on that one (check with BD). In some cases they have lined up with the combination of my ethical values and situation - no ethical way to commit physical adultery if it involves betraying the vows of marriage or being dishonest with a partner. No personal interest in homosexuality etc. Some sex outside marriage (not while I was a christain) and happy for more but no cheating on partners in doing so or use of people, rather two adults giving and receiving from each other.

It will be interesting to see the explanation of fida mae's comment.

Cheers
R0bert

Robert, the change in analogy was necessary because you took an analogy about salvation, and asked questions regarding the whole of life. I hope you see that this is the case.

Robert, your terminology of ethics vs morals was basically what I had in mind in saying that you have no morals, as these are generally seen as being influenced by God. Whats more I agree with dostoevski (or however it is spelt) regarding the nihilism of atheism, so I do not think it is really possible for a commited (as opposed to ignorant, who can be good) athiest to be a good person.

Scout - I have never found you or Robert to come across as having any morality based reasoning.

Just with the space left I thought I would answer Robert's questions about why one could intrude on a polygomous relationship. For me this is a purely secular/political question and need not be referred to religion (as no Christian would do it). The reason that it is acceptable to interfer in such personal matters is that these relationships involve people you have chosen to ignore, children who have no say in the situation. The role of government has a history of stepping into the private sphere where the life or development of a child is at stake. an example being children with drug addicted parents who need to be taken out of a psychological and behavioural nightmare. Given psychology's (which I only trust to a certain degree, but in this case seems well researched) findings regarding the pros and cons of parenting, there seems little doubt to me that polygamy is bad for children.