Numbat-I can't work out what you are talking about. Did I say something that offended you? Can you point me to the post?

Aziliz,

Sorry, I did meant to be humorous with that dog's breakfast comment etc... I guess I was too fired up to articulate that.
Still I don't think BD is interested to be bogged down in that manner of ranty debate. Neither am I interested to analyse those point-scorings, especially a debate about Paul is a complete turn-off for me. I have noticed people spend (ie. waste) too much time discussing Paul.

To answer your points:
1... I initiated the challenge so FH can argue Islam spirituality. (I don't have to reveal my 'definition'. This is purely tactical.)
2... I am targeting Islam alone. Not comparing religions. Christianity ( or any other religion) is irrelevant.
3... It is for FH (or anyone) to argue the spiritual dimension of those physical activities. I will then refute them with reasons. I don't play a match and be a referee at the same time.
4... This is irrelevant (same as point 2). I didn't even define spirituality and hence have no reason to reference Christian spiritual practices.

U wrote: "And the christian guarantee of going to heaven no matter how awful you are..."

I am aware you have some misconceptions. But I'm not your typical christian and I'm not here to preach.

Actually your point is most accurate about Islam in its carnality. In Islam, no matter how awful one is, presumably one goes to paradise when one died for Islam. A very attractive motivation for suicide bombers. Precisely the point I was making.

I have noticed many people are not here on weekends. So they do have a life, unlike you and I :(

Perhaps FH tries to convert people to Islam during his weekend socials. I hope he always encounters a GZ Tan in his crowds and hence fails abysmally always.

aziliz: You or another said that I was full of hate and possibly mental. What others may think of me is their problem not mine. If you did not make the above comments then I tender my humble apologies - fair dinkum! If you did make those comments then my answering remarks remain. numbat

Philo,

“Because of this attitude Muslims have toward women breeds in Muslim males that any females swimming in public places are sexually and morally loose”.
For once I agree its a problem among Arab Lebanese community I have seen in Australia. It is not ‘Muslims’ related because I never witnessed it in Turkish, Indonesian, Indian or Anglo Muslims but rather bad manners and parenting.
Islam teaches good manners for men starts from not staring at a female. The staring & eye feasting is a true anti-Islamic behaviour.
If you want to talk about “Muslims’ then in Muslim countries staring and spitting on a female is a sexual harassment and the punishment is anything from shaving heads to 6 months lock up. Gang raping in Muslim countries is penalised by death or 25 years prison sentence. Child rapists never survive in jails in any Muslim countries because other inmates ‘terminate them’.

Hi Scout,

I was mainly giving you examples on applicability of Shariah laws. I don’t hold it against you in fact I believe its safer option than death penalty in today’s legal environment. I do support the death penalty with obvious cases where there is no doubt like repetitive drug smuggling, gang rape, child rape, etc..
Many Mystic Muslims (Sufis) like my father would be scared of supporting a death penalty because of the ‘what if he is innocent’ scenario. I take your position to be against the death penalty as kindness of heart. You are a better human being than I am I guess.

GZ Tan,

Islamic pillars are all spiritual and physical. Interesting that you attack my faith and even with blatant arrogance explaining it to others but then when a Muslim explains his faith ‘he is trying to convert people’.
Read my posting to coach today it might be relevant to your ‘challenge’.

Fide Mae,

My point is there are many ways you can build wealth with borrowing being one of them. My assets are from investing my own savings, share trading and IT & business consulting. I never borrowed and I don’t feel disadvantaged.

FH,

"Islamic pillars are all spiritual and physical..."

NOT TRUE. Let's look at those pillars again:

Pillar_1 .. Faith ...Oneness of God...Muhammad..-> Blind faith
Pillar_2 .. daily prayers ..-> Physical activity
Pillar_3 .. almsgiving .. -> Physical activity
Pillar_4 .. fasting ..-> Physical activity
Pillar_5 .. pilgrimage ..-> Physical activity

Leave aside Pillar_1 for a moment, the physical aspect of pillars 2-5 is antecedent and is in fact a pre-condition for the 'spiritual' aspect.

For example: Pillar_3 (almsgiving)- Two physical (non-spiritual) things are needed before almsgiving is possible- 'wealth' of the giver and a 'recipient'. Without these physical pre-conditions, the final 'spiritual' aspect cannot be fullfilled.

Consider this statement: "FH gives to XX because YY told him to do so".

The action of giving to XX has a spiritual dimension only if YY is a spiritual entity. Otherwise this is purely an earthly extortion.

What's the implication?

On their own, Islam pillars 2-5 do not have ANY spiritual dimension.
They depend on Pillar_1 (BLIND FAITH) for spiritualism.

In other words, 4 out of 5 Islam pillars are actually NOTHING more than earthly pillars, put togther in Islam by the con-man (Mohammed) as a semblance of a credible 'spiritual package'.

Mohammed could easily have added a couple more pillars to Islam and Muslims won't know the difference.

So, how about my proposal of a new pillar for Islam, the SIXTH pillar of Islam:-

PILLAR 6 of Islam: All Muslims must sweep the floor 10 times a day.

Oh ya !! Now you have it, the new SIXTH pillar of Islam, which represents the daily cleansing of Muslim's inner soul by chasing away the devil ten times a day. Sounds very spiritual, doesn't it?

Some radical Muslims are suggesting a Jihadist sixth pillar. Won't you think sweeping the floor makes for a more-humanely acceptable sixth pillar?

Boy oh boy... If not for the fact that Islam is so vile, one can always have a good laugh at such a stupid carnal religion...

chuckle...chuckle... :D

(Go find out why u should leave Islam - http://www.faithfreedom.org )

Hey Fellow Human

Thanks for your thoughts. The primary reason for my questions to you and Dawood - was not so much for my personal edification (although your posts are very helpful) but because I was trying to open the thread up a little more.

My discussions with Muslim friends and acquaintances have revealed similar variation of views as you and Dawood. I really appreciate your observations regarding issues such as the death penalty where we may differ but at least we can talk in a civilised manner.

No doubt, from the following description you will recognise some of the posters to OLO.

An excerpt from an article on John Mark ministries.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/864.htm

The extract is as follows:

"When God becomes a drug

Uncompromising judgmental attitudes.

The need to control, to be perfect, and to feel superior often lead to religious addiction. Religion offers a new sense of identity and feelings of control and self-worth. Yet it is a false sense of self-worth based on putting down, humiliating, or even persecuting others who do not share your beliefs or follow rules as rigidly. .....

So much of religious addiction is built on fantasy ..... that being religious makes you a better person. ......... religious addicts must create the fantasy that others are somehow bad, inferior, or evil in order to maintain a sense of superiority. So they fear anything that poses a threat to this fantasy- driven sense of self-respect. They preach bigotry and hatred based on race, religion, or political persuasion, unable to recognize the abusiveness and hypocrisy. .......... Projecting all of your self-hatred onto others, you judge them as harshly as you judge yourself -- always pronouncing on others the same guilty verdict you secretly impose on yourself...................When you feel compelled to force your family and friends to follow your beliefs -- and become angry and hostile when they choose not to accept them -- you are not practicing healthy religion."

We must pity them they are just addicts.