If we want to be pedantic, the Christian Bible is filled with incredible violence, not least this notorious endorsement of slavery: "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have; You may buy your male and female slaves from among the nations around you..... You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever." Leviticus 25:44-46

I give as much credence to the Koran as I do to the Bible. Not a lot.

These comparisons should inform us that religion per se inclines its followers towards narrow mindendess - and mindless fanaticism in some cases.

Despite the sordid, violent history of both faiths, this history does not reflect on the majority of their devotees, many (perhaps most?) of whom ignore the literal words of the Bible or Koran and manage to live moral, peaceful lives.

Religion is the wedge.

Take off your blinkers and open up to the world, and eachother.

We are Aussies first, second and third, and affiliates of religious, sporting and the like organisations forth.

Get off the soapbox, and step down with the rest of us.

Debate over, but many of you may not have the strength to survive on your own.

I dare you to prove me wrong, get your religion out of the forefront of your mind, and dont look through religious glasses at everything. Worship in private, preach to those who want it, not who you think may need it.

I feel like a schoolteacher when i watch mud being slung over eachothers fence all the time in regards to religion.

I wish i could cane all of you and put you on detention, and ban religion from your arguments.

Act like a mason, keep your beliefs to yourself, and WE as a nation are better off, as are your kids.

Give it a go, a real 'Aussie' would.

Dear Gecko
Your criticisms would have much more impact if they were based on something more solid than a 2006AD world view being imposed on a -1400ish BC period in history.

I've struggled with the same concepts myself (as a Christian) and the biggest challenge has been to actually place myself into that mindset of the period in question and ask myself some very down to earth questions.

Please bear in mind, that the commands/rules given to Israel of this nature were not at all like those of the 10 commandments, which were (to borrow a Howardism) 'core' commandments for all time.

Given that the treatment of slaves was always subject to laws about well being and fair treatment, I think I get a rougher deal from the Commonwealth Bank than those slaves experienced. To 'buy' a slave was similar to buying their mortgage. Or..they would have been already made captive by the surrounding nations, and so, buying their existing status, and enhancing it with treatment subject to God, may not have been the worst thing that could happen to them. It also included some pathways to freedom, specially for the females.

If you give me your email, or.. write to me, jdrmot@tpg.com.au I will show you exactly the kind of relationship that can exist between real world Christian slave owners and Slaves. Actually you can add 'former' to those, because when the tribe concerned embraced Jesus as Lord, it was unthinkable to keep the slaves they had, and they not only freed them but gave them resources and land as well. I'll send you a couple of photos. Former owners, and former slaves, who regard each other as 'family'.

The Quran authorizes the sexual use of unmarried captive girls Surah 23:5-6 whereas the Old Testament does not. It specifies you may marry them, and if the marraige fails, they are to be freed unconditionally.

Sharia Law does include acceptance of 23:5-6

A sensitive subject, requiring humility and honesty in dealing with it.

Another typically defensive article by Salam Zreika.

To state that it's simply a "handful" of extremists should give even the most sceptical leftist an understanding of just how defensive Muslims become whenever they feel under attack.

A type of collective identity, herd mentality.

I'm truly sick of hearing ethnocentric migrants ask the question "what are Australian values?" as though we don't have a culture or something.

Zreika, the reasons your family decided to come here, as opposed to living in unstable nations where corruption is rife (a recent UN study showed that 1/3 of the entire planets bribery takes place in the Arab world) and minority groups are treated like dirt.

Those values, for those of you who don't know either are, the ability to dissent, that there are no disgusting ethnic problems in the sense that, say, people from QLD don't simply hate people from NSW because they are of a different tribe.

It never ceases to amaze me how much division there is in the Islamic world, they are so ethnocentric they can't get along with outsiders. No wonder there are so many young Muslim men in Australia who think Australians are "skippy trash".

They think collectively, and are ethnocentric to the core. This explains how one can see endless Lebanese flags being waved at a Canterbury Bulldogs rubgy league match, even though the only link to the far-away nation is the heritage of one player!

Our values are those of the European enlightenment, and those of Christianity, insofar that the teachings of Christ (although I'm not religious - I see the logic of Christ's message, the universality of his message, as opposed to, say, Mohammed's) are the truth, i.e, consider everybody equal, women included.

Why Muslims themselves aren't disgusted at some of the verses in the Quran, particularly 4:34 and numerous hadiths - where Mohammed likens women to a curse, and evil, is beyond me.

Zreika, it is ethnocentrism that holds many Muslims back from feeling part of Australia. Australians, like all western Europeans, are incredibly welcoming & tolerant, and have successively incorporated countless cultures into our national body. Only those who are ethnocentric have difficulties.

Those who feel superior to, by, say, practices such as turning people away from rockpools at the beach so that Muslim women in burqa's can swim uncontaminated from the "kaffir".

Muslims have to stop seeing themselves as superior entities, and live as equals with the rest of us.

I'm also sick of the derogatory comments like, "well Muslims are like Australians, although we don't get drunk or have sex before marriage".

Australians see your racism in those comments, you should at least try to hide it. Again though, a woman is not a slut for having sex before marriage.

This is a concept Muslims need to be educated about, but I guess I won't be able to educate you since you wear a veil. By default, any woman who wears a veil is saying that any woman who doesn't has lesser morals.

It is the values of western Europe that allow for you to even be in our great nation, as the western world are the only cultures that are truly tolerant of others. This is because we are secure in our identity. We aren't so fragile that we can't accept criticism. Our culture is self-criticism.

Be happy Zreika, for it is only because of western values that you are allowed to write such an impotent article, betraying your racism, but not be harmed. These are the values of what it is to be Australian.

Oh, and volunteers. Do any of you Muslims volunteer in the wider community? I have NEVER seen one working for the S.E.S, fire brigade, and so on. Community spirit type jobs show you value our nation.

I realise this is slightly off topic, but I find it odd, Boaz_David, that you are able to apply a historical reading to the Bible but refuse to allow modern muslims to do the same with the Quran? Why do you assume that Leviticus should be read as 'of the time' but assume that none of the Quran or Sunnah should be read that way also? An odd dichotomy.