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The Forum > Article Comments > The punitive obsession > Comments

The punitive obsession : Comments

By Ken Macnab, published 28/2/2006

In tackling crime and violence the law and order bandwagon unthinkingly fosters a culture of more violence.

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Politicians these days, especially in Australia, are followers not leaders. To look at alternatives to the "tough on crime" approach requires guts and creativity, which are notably lacking in the Coalition and the ALP. All they care about is getting re-elected.

So what we have are politicians pandering to the fears of the community. Nobody ever says, "Stop, let's see if this is really working. If it is, let's continue, if it's not, let's try something different". Clearly it is not working. The Emperor has no clothes, but none of our politicians are willing to point this out. And if they did, they'd be ridiculed by their opponents and the shock jocks and the right wing attack dogs.
Posted by AMSADL, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 9:51:49 AM
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You hang around with dogs you get fleas, inside Gaol and out.

Dont blame the states or the system on the individual decisions each person made when they reoffended.

Gaol provides many opportunities for those genuinely wanting to change their life. There are scum there, but ultimately that individual has responsibility for their own actions.

Reoffending can be a result of being placed back in the same environment which the person offended in the first place, and this is the most common reason. Dont blame a system, just like at school some kids do well, others dont. Its just that inside, most dont want to improve, just like in their own lives outside of Gaol.

People can be harsh when they are on the outside of the situation, and make assumptions. We cant make these people rhode scholars, many are missing something in the head and is the reason they are inside in the first place. Every society has these people in them, no matter what we did to help them, they could not improve themselves.

I think they have it easy inside and if in the 'time out' they have inside they dont get to think about things, set new goals, have regrets and fears and learn valuable lessons, they were not rehabilitation material in the first place.

For the record I know many people who have not re-offended after Gaol, and plenty of morons who do. They are 2 distinct groups and you can pick both of them out a mile away.

It is called 'life nouse' and these people have none. We must deal with it and realise we cant help everyone, it helps us more if we help those who want to help themselves.
Posted by Realist, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 10:12:13 AM
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While an effort must be made to rehabilitate prisoners, it is absolutely essential that those offenders who pose a threat to others should be imprisoned. This is not only a matter of practical necessity, it also represents justice to society and to the offender.

Where the current system fails in the most absurd and unnecessary way is in the imprisoning of people, sometimes for long periods, who pose no threat whatsoever. Prominent victims of this policy in recent years have included Brian Burke, Pauline Hanson (who was not even guilty), Andrew Theophanous and Rene Rivkin. The offences in these cases involved an abuse of position for personal gain; the punishment should include a ban from holding a responsible position (so the offence cannot be repeated), heavy fines and community service (to provide restitution to society)
Posted by GeorgeT, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 10:13:02 AM
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“His death sentence was mandatory, illustrating the inherent injustice of all mandatory sentencing.”

How does mandatory sentencing illustrate its own ‘injustice’? And what has Phillip Ruddock’s description of capital punishment as barbaric have to do with his stand on David Hicks, who is still alive?

The fact that an Australian feels the need lecture other Australians on capital punishment when Australia does not have capital punishment is bad enough, but this character doesn’t want people jailed either.

What does he want? People to be allowed to do anything they want to? How about the victims of these creeps, Mr. McNab? And, the best way for aborigines to stay out of jail is the same as it is for others: stop committing crimes.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 10:21:53 AM
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Dr Ken Macnab's 'Time Machine' made the obligatory visit to December 2005 but ran out of petrol, as is the case with most of our clerisy who undertake that journey. Dr Macnab, the alleged 'racial' violence at Cronulla owes its genesis to what? You seem keen on dissecting issues so please inform the debate.

Dr Macnab's piece does throw up some interesting figures. He says that in NSW the prison population has increased by 7%. Traditional Australians are dying out and we are replacing them with migrants. So, our prisons are filling up with blue-rinsed 70-year-old criminals or we are importing criminals.

Dr Macnab correctly sounds a tocsin with regard to the high rate of recidivism. We must find better ways to manage our prisons and prisoners. One solution might be to build the next prison 100k north of Broken Hill and offer the inmates very little in the way of amenities with the message "If you don't like it, don't come back". A massive effort should be put into rehabilitation with skills and education replacing weight lifting and the Foxtel Gold package.

A more drastic method might be to send our prisoners to Manus Island and release them.
Posted by Sage, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 11:07:29 AM
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Hi all

To: Dr Ken MACNAB

Hi Ken. Well written & 'balanced'.

I am "a victim of crime" - my mother was murdered in 1990 by a then 17-year old drug addict whose tragic background gives reason as to why he did what he did, but doesn't excuse his actions.

Whilst you have covered a wide range of elements to your posting, there are obviously some aspects which included in the limited space allowed. Whatsmore they would have 'opened' a Pandora's Box. Some of those subjects may include former NSW Attorney General, Frank WALKER's tampering with the Summary Offences Act. The 'system' also changed its treatment of juveniles. 'Liberal' thinking saw Police relegated to virtual status of "armed Security Officers" over-burdened "paper-shufflers". Taking the 'powers' away from parents, & parents seeking to be their children's "best friend" rather than being parents only exacerbates an already tenuous scenario. The issues are complex.

I have never been pro-capital punishment - though I believe in "truth in sentencing". Poor bench-marking by judiciary saw murder as a lesser crime than pack-rape for instance - I am not diminishing the seriousness of rape here either.

NSW Chief Justice Jim Spigelman had an inkling into the 'problem'. But, like most people within society, he appears to have failed to realise that the criminal commits a crime against a victim - not against the State. We often hear the expression: "The criminal owes a debt to the State." The loser in all this is the person against whom the crime has been committed. I don't benefit from my mum's killer spending 20-years in gaol without changing his attitudes & prospects. Nor can he bring my mum back to life - unlike if he stole my car. My only recompense is in knowing that the killer won't kill again, & if possible, I can have an input into changing his life to the better. Vengeance doesn't serve much purpose. ... (t.b.c)
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 4:16:23 PM
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Hi all

continued to: Dr Ken MACNAB

Mum's killer is involved in a Restorative Justice process - there is high hope for his recovery. As to people like Ivan MILAT, John GLOVER & the like: what do we do with them? What about Lindy CHAMBERLAIN?

I knew John GLOVER quite well during the late-80s & early-90s as a Four'n'Twenty Pie rep. We also went to the same dentist in Mosman. There was no warning there. Guilt? I trust the Police investigators. With Ivan MILAT: I used to shoot target pistol with members of his family at Bowral Pistol Club. He was definitely weird. Guilty? Little doubt about that one. Lindy CHAMBERLAIN was a tragic miscarriage of justice. I don't know Lindy, but I do know Michael.

You might deduce that I communicate with both the Executive Management of the NSW Police Force - not "service" - & also 'senior people' within the Department of Corrective Services. Some politicians are also very helpful. But organisations such as Ken MARSLEW's Enough Is Enough & Chuck COLSON's Prisons' Fellowship International are doing an outstanding job in trying to focus & remould practical changes that will reduce criminality & minimise recidivism.

Thanks again Ken. I wish you well. Maybe we could meet each other at an appropriate time & place? You are welcome to make direct contact with me.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 4:18:57 PM
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The author claims the punative regime is totally ineffective for marginalized groups, as exemplified by the Cronulla violence. It just provides launching pads for scurrelous polies and shock jocks he suggests.

Lets look at one incident and then apply his 3 step program for world peace and a secular utopian Millenium from his previous article found here: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=642

The incident:

25 or so Lebanese youths, with baseball bats terrorize patrons of a MacDonalds in the Cronulla region in 1998.
Ok... step one

“Balanced Media Coverage” (err.. we don’t call them ‘of middle eastern’ appearance ?)

Now Step 2

We call the United Nations.. yep..thats gotta help.

We rang them but they said it would probably all be over by the time they got there, and besides Lebanon is the swinging vote for Russia to be selected for a particular committee of interest to them, so we don’t want to annoy the Russians by annoying the Lebanese by reporting their ethnicity in this attack

Step 3 Open up a dialog...

NOWwwwww we are “tallking”.. this HAS to be the solution !

They stomp on us, wield bats on our backs and heads if we tell them to get lost, yep..DIALOGUE.. aah.. we need more of that.

THE REALITY
The police come, they brought the dog squad, they arrested numerous perpetrators, some were bitten (maybe they were RUNNING ?)

Then, the Magistrates berate the police
The Perpetrators sue the police.
The Police morale reaches an all time low
The Lebanese males are now empowered. (and richer)

Can someone tell me how ‘dialogue’ would have prevented this attack ?

Perhaps we should have expressed sympathy for their marginalized condition ? Hmmmm...*whack/OUCH *.... nope..that didnt work.

Is it just POSSIBLE that humans are sinful creatures.. lustful for resources and power, are tribal, and advance the interests of them and theirs at the expense of others ?

Dr Ken, I’m providing you a reading list..

-Genesis -Exodus -Numbers -Joshua -1 and 2 Samuel, -1 and 2 Kings.

You will learn a lot about human nature and its unchanging character and need for Divine Grace.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 8:41:22 PM
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Ken McNab is opposed to capitol punishment, mandatory sentences and incarcerating minorities. Uh huh. His rationale appears to be, that since criminal behaviour is increasing, these punishments do not work. Therefore they are social problems that can be alleviated through social policies. I can partly agree with him there.

Naturally, Ken dodges the two primary reasons for why serious criminal behaviour in affluent Western societies is increasing when it should be falling. Opposing both of these social policies is PC verboten.

The first, is the importation of crime prone ethnic groups. That poor choice of immigrant groups is directly responsible for much of our present crime wave can be judged from the fact that in 1991, ethnic lobby groups successfully lobbied the Federal government to prevent Australian statisticians at the ABS from keeping records on ethnic related crime. Seems that these ethnic groups were embarrassed at what the statisticians were finding. Ken’s own figures about aboriginal incarceration rates validates the notion that some groups are either culturally or genetically more prone to serious criminal behaviour.

The second, is that we are teaching children to admire criminal behaviour through our culture. Past Australian generation simply took for granted that the media had the power to influence the minds of children and Australian censorship laws were strict. Today we see nothing wrong with the entertainment industry targeting our children with movies, songs and computer games which endorse violence, criminality and illegal drug abuse
Posted by redneck, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 4:13:14 AM
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Perhaps exchange the academic words ‘punitive obsession’ with ‘revenge’ - sometimes also called ‘payback’.

It’s a crude equaliser. You do the wrong thing, okay we will fix things by hurting you. Really dumb, social science.

Revenge got locked into our legal system partly by a Christian belief that human beings act out their lives under the influence of ‘free will’. Thereby people are labelled as intrinsically ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Bad people have to be punished. That will make them good. Or just be done with it and send them straight to hell. Dumb social science.

I invite anybody to go into a prison and discover who is actually in there. You find that every inmate has a sorry history. Not hard to find out why they acted in the way they did. Being sympathetic does not mean we absolve the wrong doer. But it does show that ‘revenge’ is a stupid, primitive remedy for wrongdoing.

Obviously, it is those closest to the problem who understand the problems best. Social workers, lawyers, judges, even some prison workers. These are the professionals who experience at first hand where the offender is coming from, their personal history, why they offended and deterrents and remediation that actually work best.

Politicians and media know little of this. Yet they are the harbinger of punitive laws. Laws that don’t work.

Another major obstacle is that any debate along these lines arouses a public fear that we are asking the legal system to be lenient on those who break the law. This is definitely not a question of lenience. It is a question of what penal system works, what is just and what best remedies negative behaviour.

We already know that primitive notions of ‘revenge’ and ‘payback’ are counterproductive. They simply escalate crime
Posted by gecko, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 8:27:31 AM
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I am fascinated in this debate by the profound anti-democratic sentiments exhibited by many of the participants. There are 13 states in the US without the death penalty; 37 states that have the death penalty. All of this by democratic vote. As far as I know the voters in Australia have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue, doubtless because there is too much concern that they might re-instate capital punishment. Politicians are denigrated as "followers". Isn't that democracy? If a politician does not do what I want, I will vote to throw him out, and put in someone who will.

The main reasons why I think we should have a death penalty are:

1. To make absolutely sure that we never have any problems with this person again. (The recidivism rate for hanged persons is, I believe, zero).

2. To exact revenge on behalf of society for what they have done.

3. To achieve the above aims with the least possible expenditure of public money.

It would not be necessary to have frequent executions, one or two a year would be enough to encourage the rest.

The other reform I would like to see would be to bring back the lash, particularly for wealthy corporate criminals who have defrauded the public of money. If one of these criminals was stripped to the waist, tied to a triangle in Martin Place and given a Botany Bay Dozen (25 lashes), the international TV rights would be considerable, and tickets could be sold to spectators. The moneys raised could then go to the people he had defrauded. We could even make a thing of it and have the flogger and his assistants dressed up in uniforms from the NSW Corps.

Another useful reform would be to get the prison population working again. The enormous cost of prisons at present could be offset by prisoners working on the roads, at telephone switchboards, and many of the other jobs they do in the US.
Posted by plerdsus, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 9:14:51 AM
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Ha Ha, yes it is the last refuge of politicians frightened of losing the next election - they play the "Law & Order" game - never fails - create an outside enemy - outside of the family or home, outside of the state, outside of the country - whatever.

A "common enemy" creates an atmosphere of fear, hatred that can then be exploited to usher in "new laws" and draconian measures against certain, or all citizens of the state. conservatives have long used this strategy, and we, the citizens seem to fall for it everytime. Why?

The War on Terror is a brilliant invention of conservative minds, both hgere and overseas. It has the potential to enslave us to the politics of fear forever. Ugh, certainly hope not!

George Dubya could have demonstrated his "christian" commitment by turing the other cheek to Sep 11th, or just declared the people responsible as Hienous arch-criminals and hunted them down using Interpol, and small military detachments deployed and working in conjunction with other countries.

Instead, the invasion of Iraq has created a power void that every radical terrorist group and hostile natioon is trying to fill. Another Vietnam! To quote Peter, Paul and Mary, "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn....?"

Charles
Posted by Flezzey, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 9:51:02 AM
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Hi all

BOAZ_David (post 8:41:22 PM 28/2/06)

The 'Cronulla' incident was at Menai. 5 good Police Officers lost their careers in 2001 over the 1998 incident - I know/knew several of those officers. A disgrace! The only officer whom I was pleased to see 'sacked' - he resigned - was Snr Sgt Steve WINDER. Snr Const Tony STACKHOUSE (Ret) was a fine officer. He is still traumatised. His wife & friends have been great supporters.

The self-confessing offender? A 'hero' to his ethnic mates once the Appeals Court had castigated the police (2001?). The others? I think that the DPP didn't proceed.

I agree: who would want the UN - even if they did respond.

You should join me in trying to remove 4 x NSW magistrates who show ineptitude & inability to perform their duty.

Victoria has it worse. The recent appointment of Marcia Neave to the Victorian Court of Appeals (part of the Supreme Court) is worrying.

Solid Scriptural text! Cheers.
(28/2/06)

AMSADL (post 9:51:49 AM 28/2/06)

You are right: politicians are (often) followers & most only focus on being re-elected. That's called "keeping your job". Similarly, in a 'corrupt' factory or hospital, for instance, the workers ignore &/or participate in the wrong-doing.

Notwithstanding, creativity & real crime-prevention methodologies are lacking.
(28/2/06)

Realist (post 10:12:13 AM 28/2/06)

Prisons can be, as suggested, hubs for reinforcing recidivicism. That's why the style of gaols must change to suit the criminality - viz, murderers isolated from burglars.

There isn't as much opportunity within gaols as you might think. It will depend on the classification of the gaol & the prisoner.

Harsh treatment within gaols leads to recalcitration & recidivism at 75%+. Meanwhile violent criminals should not have it easy. The Restorative Justice module in the USA has a low re-offence at between 5%-25% - depending on the gaol. There are 5 "star-performers" from out of the hundreds of American prisons.

Those whom you know would affirm that there is a marked difference between say Long Bay, Silverwater, Junee & Goulburn gaols. None are "holiday-houses" as some people think.
(28/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 4:52:40 PM
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Hi all

GeorgeT (post 10:13:02 AM 28/2/06)

You're fundamentally correct. It was a disgrace that some of those whom you mentioned were imprisoned, whilst violent less-know repeat offenders received "community service" sentencing which was not enforced &/or not undertaken.

Ken MARSLEW from Enough Is Enough exposed that anomaly in 2004/5.
(1/3/06)

Leigh (post 10:21:53 AM 28/2/06)

I have more reason than most to want to impose "capital punishment" - read my earlier posts 4:16:23 PM & 4:18:57 PM 28/2 - but I am opposed to the "death penalty".

I have studied many of the (potential) capital offences both within Australia & overseas. No one could condone the killings by Charles MANSON or Timothy McVIE, or the rapes by Bilal SKAF. They are "lifers" (near-lifers) for sure. But simple miscarriages of justice such as the 1964 incarceration of Perth-based John BUTTON, who supposedly murdered his girlfriend Rosemary ANDERSON, should be sufficient to cast a shadow over execution. The last man executed in WA, Edgar Alan COOK, killed Rosemary. COOK was executed in 1965 - BUTTON wasn't released until 1969.

John is a "broken man" after his experience. His wife, Helen, said of him: "The thing that got to John, in the end, was that no one would listen to him." Pretty devastating being innocent but judged by everyone as guilty.

We now have DNA. Even it is flawed - about a 10% error-rate.

Whatsmore, I am a pro-lifer. I must be consistent in its application, otherwise I'm a hypocrite.
(1/3/06)

Sage (post 11:07:29 AM 28/2/06)

I'd suggest that we're "importing criminals"! That doesn't exclude the fact that we're also breeding them.

Access to TVs & the gymnasium isn't as prolific as you might think. NSW gaols aren't like the American ones seen on TV. Organised exercise is often only once weekly.

Crime-related segregation may help? That requires building specified gaols. Re-education to the minority (sadly) will help. Preparing them adequately for their release-date is essential.
(1/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 4:56:32 PM
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Dr Ken

Herewith is clearly an emotive response, which probably does not give balance to your article or your respondents.

I will never agree that any person should be killed in the name of the law of any country.

I was bashed and raped by two men back in 1993. One recieved four and a half years - after the DDP tried to assist me. The Victorian Magistrate said that he was sorry - apparently he said: " I used an old law - 20 years ago".

One got 4/12 years to get out in three and the other got 200 hours community service.

I wish they could have lived in gaol for the rest of their lives.

I have been a mental health nurse since 1978.

Thankfully, I have given my life to people with mental health problems - not people who abuse the system.

Sadly
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 10:06:54 PM
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Amsadl wrote:

"Politicians these days, especially in Australia, are followers not leaders."

My reply: In a democracry we have representatives, not leaders: if you want 'leaders' look for some other form of government.
Posted by Hamlet, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 11:12:06 PM
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Plerdsus,
I hope you are never falsely accused of murder in a USA state with the death penality. Reoffending is zero, and so is the chance to continue to fight to clear yourself with new evidence. For example DNA technology has freed some on death row, how do we know what technology will be available in 10 years that may do the same.

I see the death penality as merely blood lust, and vengence, barbaric and primative. In a civilised society only a population whipped up to fear everything from refugees to terrorists would vote to introduce the death penality. I agree "in tackling violence the law and order bandwagon unthinkingly fosters a culture of more violence."
Posted by SHONGA, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:33:10 AM
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LAB

I admire your stance - especially your lack of hypocrisy. I agree with you as regards death penalty for the same reasons. However I do disagree viz a viz abortion, but that is for another debate and I do ask myself the question of when a life is a life. For me when it is independent, such as people convicted of crimes they may or may not have committed. Anyway, LAB, you do present good arguments and refrain of personal insult.

Shonga - again we are sympatico. Violence simply breeds more violence. Death penalty condones violence. We, as human beings are still barbarians while we permit it.

Finally, Kay - understand your mixed feelings regards redemption. The punishment for rape is in no way adequate for the crime. I too have been raped. It is a death for the freedom and spirit of the victim. Should be a minimum sentence of 10 years first offence and life if reoffend.

Cheers
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 2 March 2006 7:28:44 AM
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Excuse me folks,

If the death penalty is a deterrent against crime, then how does it apply to the would-be suicide bomber?

This example exemplifies the fact that violent males are generally immune to life threatening messages.

There is more than enough evidence to show that the death penalty has an insigniificant effect on serious crime. Is the USA more crime free than Australia because it has the death penalty?
Is China? As for that other (former) death penalty state, its use in South Africa (as in China) was motivated by political overtones, rather than justice .
Posted by gecko, Thursday, 2 March 2006 8:56:52 AM
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SHONGA,

You are right, no system is perfect. It is possible that if you have a death penalty, some innocent people will die. Against that, you have to balance the murderers, particularly of young children, who, having served their prison sentence, are released and murder again. The traditional response is to tilt the system in favour of the accused on the basis that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free that for one innocent man to suffer. I would suggest that if you look at the NSW figures over the last 65 years since the last hanging, the number of people who have been murdered by released prisoners greatly exceeds the number of people who have been convicted of murder and subsequently found to be innocent
Posted by plerdsus, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:23:04 PM
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Hi all

Redneck (post 4:13:14 AM 1/3/06)

Political correctness is a major problem!

Multiculturalism combined with relativism is a bi-product of PC. We're too afraid to speak the truth incase we insult or vilify somebody.

Decriminalisation or legalisation of some anti-social behaviours also contributes to a 'real' increase in crime - the wrongful act becomes acceptable. Falsified or manipulated statistics bring about the outcomes which we now have - crimes which "go under the radar".
(1/3/06)

gecko (post 8:27:31 AM 1/3/06)

Actually, revenge ISN'T a Christian philosophy - "Vengeance is Mine saith the L'rd." & "If someone striketh you on the right cheek, turn to him the other." That isn't vengeance.

Also, it's interesting to read some of the Levitical laws regarding theft & the fact that the victim NOT the State is recompensed. That's part of the 'problem' with the current judicial code - the criminal rarely gets to 'reimburse' the victim, & there's no/little contrition.
(1/3/06)

plerdsus (post 9:14:51 AM 1/3/06)

I'm a believer in democracy, but sometimes a democratic vote on an issue doesn't give a just & equitable decision.

Immediately after a major crime, voters would most certainly support "capital punishment". If the vote were to be taken at the time say Shapelle CORBY's 'execution' people would be less-inclined to support such a proposition.

As to your reasons: they are very logical, but they give no room for error - courts do get it wrong. No certified & accurate statistics give validity to assurance that execution minimalises murders. Criminals don't think that they will be caught.

There may be some merit in reintroducing the birch? Though Human Rights advocates & 'liberal' judiciary would probably be opposed to it. Public floggings have never statistically minimalised crime.

I agree that non-violent prisoners ought to be involved in ex-prison work-gangs. The only obstacles would probably be budget constraints, union objection (job losses) & an adequate system of monitoring. [Refer my prior comment to GeorgeT - Ken MARSLEW's exposing of Probation & Parole's inadequacies.]
(1/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 2 March 2006 5:04:22 PM
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Hi all

Flezzey (post 9:51:02 AM 1/3/06)

I'm a conservative & still think that GWB's decision will prove to be wrong - but not necessarily for the same reasons.

On a wider front, 'liberals' often try to negotiate - believing that the other person is of similar integrity. However, just like a criminal, who will lie to get whatever he/she wants, so diplomats & political leaders lie also.

Strangely, given 'new' powers - to replace what the NSW Police Force lost in 1986 - & with a degree of applying a cautious approach to the Cronulla Riots, police were subsequently criticised for "taking too long", "not arresting enough people" etc.

Federally, our Welfare Budget is greater than the combined totals of Defence, Education & Health. If we look at those who are incarcerated, the greatest proportion of them are from a "social security" background. Sadly, that says something.

Peter, Paul & Mary were right. But they only echoed the words of their forefathers into antiquity.
(1/3/06)

SHONGA (post 1:33:10 AM 1/3/06)

Spot on!
(2/3/06)

Scout (post 7:28:44 AM 2/3/06)

Thank you for your kind comments. I try not to insult people - it is counter-productive & doesn't lead to any resolution. Whatsmore, I find that it's far easier to convince my opponents of the validity of my thinking be simply presenting facts & opinions based on sound logic.

You would be most welcome to join the debate on "abortion", viz: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4145

Such issues as the age of culpability & the determinations about the sanctity of life are fundamental to society's survival.

Comment to Kay:
I am saddened by your experiences as a rape victim (Scout). My former-wife was 'allegedly' an incest victim. I discovered the truth through her dying sister. Our marriage didn't survive (obviously), but my former-wife doesn't know that I know. I will always love her, but I just don't trust her, or respect her - for the things she did to hurt me. Now at least I know why she did them.
(2/3/06)

gecko (post 8:56:52 AM 2/3/06)

Well deduced & stated.
(2/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 2 March 2006 5:12:24 PM
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LittleAgreeableBuddy

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I always find your posts interesting, thoughtful, and sometimes entertaining.

I am saddened that you love your ex wife, but that you have lost her through lack of trust. That must feel terrible.

Funny isn't it? Up until now I had thought that you were female (no offence intended).

Thanks Scout - best wishes to you too.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Thursday, 2 March 2006 6:09:11 PM
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The biggest load of drivel I've read for a long time, courtesy of Ken Mcnab.
Those marvelous statistics regarding the number of countries that have abolished capital punishment lack one obvious qualification - in how many of those countries was the issue ever put to a referendum, or even raised during an election? This is a question I asked of Amnesty International who naturally enough didn't deign to reply. Perhaps Ken could give us the facts, or one of his supporters on this forum. I'm aware of one country where the issue was put to the people, namely Switzerland, and even there the issue was not specific but as part of a referendum on constitutional amendment.

The usual bleeding-heart suspects lined up to support Ken, with their vacuous arguments about lack of deterrence and execution of the innocent, etc,.etc. These are not even worth commenting on. There are some crimes that are so sickening so beyond comprehension, that to talk of remorse or rehabilitation on the part of the perpetrators is an obscenity almost on a par with the original crime. Remember Virginia Morse, Anita Cobby?

The principle on which the justice inherent in capital punishment is based relies on a very simple precept - the value you put on your life is the same as that which you put on another’s life.

The tolerance of misfits in our society is one that is not supported by the majority of Australians, and is foisted upon us by the morally enlightened minority, the ‘memocrats’ that effectively rule this country. The results are there for all to see
Posted by ZORRO, Monday, 6 March 2006 3:24:57 PM
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Hi all

plerdsus (post 1:23:04 PM 2/3/06)

Good commentary.

I don't know how we overcome injustice & recidivism in the short-term. I'd guess that there are only about 100 annual Restorative Justice cases being handled within NSW. [If anyone wants to know the actual figure I'll ask.] But where RJ is instituted the rate of repeat offence is markedly reduced. RJ isn't appropriate in all instances - whatsmore the offender must admit his/her guilt beforehand.

Our system is "presumption of innocence" - thankfully. Realistically, police certainly prosecute far more guilty defendents than innocent. However, every wrong prosecution is one too many - just asked the aggrieved. Notwithstanding, society deserves protection.

The issue is complex & involves correction of socio-economic inequities as well. Empathy, patience & appropriate education all help. But ignoring criminality - legislated or not - doesn't reduce the suffering of the victim.
(2/3/06)

Kalweb (post 6:09:11 PM 2/3/06)

My pleasure to add enjoyment to your day.

I didn't just lose Sue. Her lies & deceipt turned my children against me too. But that's life. My murdered mum warned me of what lay ahead, but I wouldn't listen. Mum only made peace with Sue about 3-years before mum was killed. I'm thankful that mum didn't survive to see the later anguish.

No, I'm all male. Not even an inkling of 'cross-dress' thought. Think that I might have been LittleAgreeableBuddiette if I'd had the 'snip&tuck'.

You identified yourself as "Kay", so I knew your status. But like you with me, Scout had me fooled. I'm pleased to communicate with both of you - the feminine gentility now shows.

Now, how do we put "justice" back into our "legal system"?

Truth & integrity might help. Consistency & transparency should be there. As must be pragmatic lateral thinking & education. That doesn't diminish the need to be tough on crime either. But it's getting the balance right that counts. We also need to focus away from "punishment" (vengeance), & view incarceration as protecting society, whilst we change the attitudes & skills of the guilty. ...

...(t.b.c.)
(2/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 6 March 2006 9:22:22 PM
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Hi all

Kalweb (cont response) [your post 6:09:11 PM 2/3/06]

Murderers, from my experience, take 10to15-years to become compliant - if they ever do. Without diminishing the seriousness of other crimes, murder must rate as the worst. Sentencing should reflect that.

I also support "a 3-strike & you're out" concept.
(2/3/06)

ZORRO (post 3:24:57 PM 6/3/06)

I don't know anything about you - yet.

I'm amazed that pro-capital punishment advocates usually have never been a "victim of crime".

Zorro, you obviously haven't read my posts. And it's likely that you don't know Garry & "Peg" LYNCH (Anita), Kerri & Bev BALDING (Janine), Peter & Christine SIMPSON (Ebony), Ken & Carol (now Lynette) MARSLEW (Michael), Brian MORSE (Virginia), John BUTTON (Rosemary Anderson), Michael & Lindy CHAMBERLAIN (Azariah), policeman Ian BORLAND (wounded in 1984; partner killed), et alii. [I know many more.] We're all 'victims'. My mum was killed in 1990.

Ironically, I also professionally knew "the Granny Killer", John Glover. I used to shoot at Bowral Pistol Club with Ivan MILAT's brothers. How quirky!

John Glover's recent suicide revealed his weakness. What a nasty individual! He's now selfishly further traumatised his family - I don't know any of his victims' families.

I spent part of last weekend with Snr Sgt Garry RAYMOND (Ret.). He investigated into "the Granny Killings", the KALAJIC (Manly Pacific murder - he killed his wife) murder, & the Anita COBBY killing. A remarkable man.

I remain very 'close' to high-ranking police & members of the judiciary & DCS. I knew Det Chief Supt Ron STEPHENSON & his wife Gloria, too - both killed on Capt Cook Bridge (Sydney). Ron investigated the Milperra Bikie Gang Massacre.

Most people seek justice. But we see it differently. Inadequate sentencing is appalling. Few of the above are "capital punishment" advocates.

Isn't that interesting? The actual aggrieved rarely seek retribution. Self-proclaimed vigilantes are the vengeful.

Thankfully capital punishment isn't approved. If it were, John BUTTON & Lindy CRIGHTON (formerly Chamberlain) would be dead. Additionally, the opportunity to help my mum's killer through the Restorative Justice programme would be lost.
(6/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 9 March 2006 9:40:46 AM
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To LittleAgreeableBuddy:

I haven’t read your previous posts, but if this comment is indicative of your thought processes, then I haven’t missed much.

You give a grab-bag of names, but don’t make clear just what the purpose of doing that is. Personal friends of yours? All ‘victims’, of something or other, as you claim? Few of the above are ‘capital punishment’ advocates”. Why then not name just which ones are, or are not? An asterisk against each name would have sufficed.

“The actual aggrieved rarely seek retribution”? Idiotic bleeding-hearts like you, who live in a delusional Fairyland, may like to think that. Those of us who live in the real world know otherwise.

The bit I really loved was the following statement:“Additionally, the opportunity to help my mum’s killer though the Restorative Justice programme would be lost.” Indeed it would, and what a bloody shame! It’s a pity that we can’t have your mum’s thoughts on the matter, but then, that’s the problem, isn’t it? The victims are voiceless.

I notice you didn’t bother to answer my question on referendums. Neither has Ken Mcnab. So - answer this one instead. What gives you the right to impose your misguided morality on others
Posted by ZORRO, Wednesday, 15 March 2006 8:55:28 AM
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Hi all

ZORRO (post 8:55:28 AM 15/3/06)

I'd already said [Thursday, 9 March 2006 9:40:46 AM] that "Zorro, you obviously haven't read my posts ..".

Only (sorry!) a moron fails to thoroughly research his/her subject-matter, & shows a lack of compassion & understanding (generally).

You recognised none of those names. That shows your ignorance of well-publicised major. You're obviously lazy, & probably wouldn't seek information for yourself, so I'll give you a brief précis. Voila:

1. Garry & "Peg" LYNCH - parents of Anita COBBY: raped, tortured & murdered 2/1986 by Gary TRAVERS, Michael MURDOCK, and Les, Michael & Gary MURPHY.

2. Kerri & Bev BALDING - parents of Janine: accosted at Sutherland & pack-raped & drowned at Mt Druitt 8/9/1988 by Stephen Wayne "Shortie" JAMIESON & Bronte BLESSINGTON.

3. Peter & Christine SIMPSON - parents of then 9-year old Ebony: abducted from her Bargo home, sexually assaulted & murdered in 1992 by Andrew Peter GARFORTH.

4. Ken MARSLEW - father to then 18-year old Michael: shot in botched robbery of Jannali Pizza Hut on 27/2/1994 by four youths - don't remember their names.
Initially, Ken wanted "to get the four bastards who murdered young Michael, kill them, then suicide." - his quote.
Ken now runs "Enough Is Enough" Anti-violence Movement in Sutherland. He's a very close friend.

5. Brian MORSE - husband of Virginia: raped, tortured & murdered 11/1973 by Allan BAKER & Kevin CRUMP.

6. John BUTTON - boyfriend, in 1963, of traffic-accident victim, Perth teenager, Rosemary ANDERSON.
In 1964 John was sentenced to gaol for her manslaughter. It took 5-years to prove his innocence. The crime was actually committed by the last man executed in WA, Eric Edgar COOK.
Cook had admitted to the crime, but self-serving investigators 'buried' the evidence.
Journalist/author, Estelle BLACKBURN, together with an American "car-crash" expert, 'proved' Button's innocence.
It took until 2002 for the WA Government to acknowledge the injustices done to John. ...

...(t.b.c.)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 16 March 2006 4:59:44 AM
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Hi all

post to ZORRO (cont)

7. Michael & Lindy CHAMBERLAIN - internationally-known parents of Azariah. A travesty of injustice.
Michael lives on the Far-North Coast. Lindy lives in the Hunter Valley. Their lives were decimated.

I could continue, but you mightn't understand. None of those individuals desire "capital punishment" - I know them all. [Is that clear enough?]

As to my mum: I knew her intimately. I also know the conversations held between the offender & my mum. I know his tragic background - his crime shouldn't be excused. I also know her wishes - gaol for her killer, but not his death.

Just for your information, it was us (above) who fought for "truth in sentencing" (1989). None are 'soft' on crime - ask Nick GREINER, Bob CARR. Our lobbying resulted in Bob imposing the "never to be released" clause.

Meanwhile, what have you done Zorro? Probably nothing, except mouthing off in ignorance.

You'd benefit from reading "Vigilante Vengeance" in the book, "No Wonder They Called Him the Saviour" by Max LUCADO. It's vigilante, Bernhard Hugo GOETZ's story.

Your comment on referendums? I didn't notice that you specifically asked me to respond?! You said & I'll quote: "Perhaps Ken could give us the facts, or one of ..". I may or may not be one of Ken's 'supporters'? But, if you remain replyless from Amnesty International I can understand. Look at your OLO postings - you'll continue to be ignored.

Your closing comment [post 3:24:57 PM 6/3] that "The results are there for all to see.", places a presumption that you have expertise. I'd conjecture not.

In most of the countries, where "capital punishment" is part of their statutes, serious criminality often escalates. You see, criminals don't conjure captivity. The "death penalty" might be a 'thrill incentive' for the criminal?

In closing, if you're impassioned to improve the "justice system" you might courteously begin lobbying politicians about "inappropriate sentencing". I seek the removal of ineffectual magistrates like NSW Magistrate Pat O'SHANE. For me it's a "work in progress".
(15/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 16 March 2006 6:21:01 AM
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LAB

Loving your work here.

Capital Punishment/Death Penalty - no doubt there are many who deserve death for the heinous nature of their crimes, but apart from issues like effectiveness as deterrent (clearly not) and possibility of innocence (often happens) another issue I have with the implementation of a death penalty is this:

The Executioner.

Who is this person?

How is he/she chosen? What kind of person would choose to be an executioner?

To perform an execution both places the perpetrator into a position above all others and yet simultaneously brings us all down to the same level of the convicted murderer. We are guilty by association if our justice system includes death penalty.

How does the relatively painless death of the convict create justice for the murdered? Another death can't bring people back to life.

Being imprisoned for life, never to walk in a park, go to restaurants, swim at a beach. Many paint prison as a motel - they do not have the imagination to realise how much a loss of freedom is indeed punishment. Life in prison is no holiday. Whereas death only happens once, life in prison is every single day until the killer dies of old age.

People like Ivan Milat should never be released.

Many killers choose to suicide rather than be caught. To me death penalty is the easy solution. It is for people who see everything in black and white. People who don't like to think too much.

LAB

I am sorry to hear about the dreadful circumstances of your mother's demise. Your compassion is commendable - derived from experience and your own self-education.

I am interested in your thoughts on the issues I have raised here.

Kind Regards
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 16 March 2006 7:50:55 AM
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LittleAgreeableBuddy

Thank you for your last two posts. Brilliant stuff - and of course, accurate.

Scout

Agree wholeheartedly with yours. Thank you.

Never to be released is surely much more painful than death.

Regards
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Thursday, 16 March 2006 7:55:13 PM
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Hi all

ZORRO (response continuation to your post 8:55:28 AM 15/3/06)

You said, as a final comment, & I quote exactly: "So - answer this one instead. What gives you the right to impose your misguided morality on others"

My response:
1. I suspect your comment is a question - there's no "question-mark".
2. "Right"? I have the same Common Law right as anyone else in Australia - provided I don't 'negatively' affect fellow-citizens. That's called responsibility.
3. "Impose"? That's your word - not mine.
4. "Misguided"? Most sane, rational, well-educated & well-informed 'experts' dealing in legislative, law-enforcement, judicial procedures & mental health matters recognise the futility of "capital punishment" - I continually communicate with such.
5. "Morality"? I certainly hope so!
6. "Upon others"? You are free to your own opinions & to express them - politely. But opinions are only that opinions. They often have little reality to facts. Facts are deduced from scientific experimentation, or analysed, collated statistics. They are unemotional - unlike the rantings of some emotional individuals who understand not. Those individuals are often called "armchair experts".
(16/3/06)

Scout (post 7:50:55 AM 16.3.06)

I think I understand you a whole lot more since you 'opened up' to everyone. You, too, have suffered - haven't we all. But it's how we respond that matters.

You sound like a great lady!

Sorry that I'd exceeded my 24-hour limitation - my response has been delayed. But here it is ...

1. ".. deserve death for .."
Do they? I know that the OT calls for "an eye for an eye". There are also parts of the NT which may alude to it?! Many non-Christian-thinking people agree with execution.

But what does Christ say in "the Beatitudes"? Moreover, the taking of another life doesn't really satisfy the 2nd-generation aggrieved - in the long-run.

4000-years of history of exesutions hasn't prevented murder. Once it was done in public. That solved nothing.

There are few statistics that suggest the crime rate is reduced by capital punishment - to the contrary, where it's used violence isn't diminished. ...

... (t.b.c.)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Friday, 17 March 2006 1:03:16 PM
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Hi again

(cont)
2. ".. possibility of innocence .."
Some figures suggest that errant judgements are as high as 20% - that's 1:5!

DNA is errant 10%+. Wow!

Read http://abcasiapacific.com/englishbites/stories/s541019.htm

I met his wife Helen. What an amazing man!

3. "The Executioner .."
Pretty 'cold', uncaring individual. Those who use "lethal injection" would be the most blessed of them all.

A dreadful job - unless you're a sadist.

4. "How does the relatively painless death of the convict ..?"
It doesn't! Just read Ken MARSLEW's story - an amazing change of heart.

5. "Being imprisoned for life, never to .."
That's he least of their worries in prison. What a depressing, morbid institution - full of psychotic, drug induced, semi-literate, argumentative, illogical, aggressive co-inhabitants.

Then the inmates have to deal with angry wardens - many of whom are failed police officers. Few like their job. However, some are great people. By visiting gaols I've gotten to know some of them. Some are outstanding human-beings.

6. "People like Ivan Milat should never be released."
He won't be - unless they find unsurmountable evidrence to over-turn the conviction.

I think that police got that one 100% right - I met part of his family - I shot "target pistol" - & know 2 of the investigating Policemen. Tim Priest was one of them.

7. "I am sorry to hear about .."
Thank you, but you don't owe me any apology. Your empathy (not sympathy), & a desire to change our whole "law enforcement" principle will be the best legacy that we can leave in honour of my mother.

In NSW, Police Commissioner Ken MORONEY needs our support; DCS Commissioner Ron WOODHAM needs our encouragement to make the necessary changes that will reduce the recidivism; our politicians need to be made more accountable for their decisions; government bureaucrats need to listen more to the 'employees' & aggrieved rather than "bleeding-hearts" & ill-nformed academics; we need to be willing to embrace change.
(16/3/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Friday, 17 March 2006 1:09:20 PM
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Hi all

kalweb (post 7:55:13 PM 16/3/06)

I try to be objective, factual & informed/informative. It isn't easy - we're humans.

Ironically, I don't see punishment the way most people see it. I don't see it in the context of retribution, instilling hurt or harm. I focus more on the fact that the offender needs to be separated from society for society's safety.

A serious crime demands a long sentence because of its callousness - the individual's belief-systems & life-experiences are in conflict with society's 'norms' & therefore can't be quickly changed.

I may have stated it elsewhere? But I believe that remorseful killers take at least 10-years before they "come to terms" with their crime. Some never do. However, if they are incarcerated, society is protected, &, when/if society ever reaches a true rehabilitation-mentality, there will be an increasing number of remorseful offenders who won't re-offend.

That reversal of repetitive criminality & a genuine reduction in crime may just 'easy the burden' of those who are the real & surviving "victims of crime" - the close relatives. That's called "Restorative Justice" - less recidivism; 'peace' for the aggrieved; safety for society.
(17/3/06)

ALL:
Those interested might like to look up the following:
http://abcasiapacific.com/englishbites/stories/s541019.htm
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/803.asp
http://www.enoughisenough.org.au/about/ from where you can navigate through much of what "Enough Is Enough" does, & the associated links to other cases.

Cheers & good wishes to you all ... always
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Saturday, 18 March 2006 4:42:44 PM
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Hello LAB

I agree wholeheartedly with you about the need to remove an offender from society and the possibility of rehabilitation in some cases.

I find criminals at the level of Hitler and Pol Pot as deserving forfeiture of their lives, but also believe that there is no one among us who has the right to perform the execution. I arrive at this from a philosophical POV - not from any particular religion.

Also agree that the nature of the crime should determine the length of sentence, therefore the likes of mass murderers should never be released, being the maximum sentence.

Down to no sentence at all if one has killed in self defence.

BTW LAB, I am very aware of the day to day difficulties of living in a prison. Not from personal experience, thank goodness, but because I am well read, informed and not at all stupid. In fact I have a cousin who is a prison officer - something I could never countenance for myself, being too much of a softie.

In summary - vengeance in the form of capital punishment does not achieve anything. It does not bring back the victims, nor does it change the crime. It is often a way out for an offender (Hitler suicided). Meeting cruelty with more cruelty will never solve anything.

People can change if they want, often they come from backgrounds where violence is the only way they know of settling problems and they can learn that there are other ways of achieving what they want without harming others.
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 19 March 2006 9:55:44 AM
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