Philo, given your previous comments in this thread, I hesitate to become involved in discussion with you. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt – that you have accepted some burden of error in those comments and feel remorse for the ill-worded statements – and on that basis, am willing to have a civilised and open-minded discussion

So, lets dialogue.

As to the existence of God:
- I agree that God is not one to be located physically.
- Can you explain the meaning of a Spirit revealed in character and attitude?
- I understand the concept of creative action and accept that with a belief in ‘The Creation’, this is seen.
- However, I am stuck on the revealed wisdom. I take it you refer to the wisdom imparted by God to humanity. Can you explain the revelation of this wisdom? How, who was involved and the veracity of the claims by these people?

You state that all life has principles leading to a best purpose and practise. I assume this comes from the revealed wisdom, so will leave this until we cover that. I won’t go into questions regarding the living within as this also relies upon the revealed wisdom.

As to the correct religion:
If I am to summarise – it is not following any particular dogma (of any of the various religions) but to live according to the principals and codes accorded to the revealed wisdom of God. Further that it is important to be aware of and honour the relationship between us (the creation) and our God (the creator).

Please accept that I do not ask these questions to be difficult or at any time derogatory. I was raised Christian and believe I have a good understanding of Christianity (and even admire some of it).

I simply wish to delve into certain aspects of belief and faith that are relevant to the issues in this thread and broaden my views to better place my moral and ethical compass.

Philo “God is Spirit revealed in character, attitudes, revealed wisdom, and his creative actions. These aspects are expressed in persons who seek God in this way.”

“It is a matter of living conscious of the manifest character of idealism found in God”

I would not disagree with those statements.

What you are saying is we all have God within us. Since we all have varying degrees of “character”, “attitude”, assuming we have access to “revealed wisdom” (like Reason, I have a bit of an issue with definition here) and are all capable of “creative action”.

Accepting a direct involvement of God within each of us.

So why are Catholics intent on making the rest of us bend to their religious edicts and dogma?

Why can’t Catholics accept that, since we all possess a direct relationship with God, the role of Church is, at best, superficial and when not at best, a lot more corrupting and malevolent with a hierarchy of priest pretending to be the interlocutors between our individual “character”, “attitudes” “wisdom” and “creative actions” and the “Spirit of God”, which you have described as being within each of us?

None of that has anything to do with denying women the right to exercise the freewill in respect to their own body, which God also gave them.

“Organised religions” were social structures designed to maintain order within society. The difference between when the Roman Catholic Church was founded and today is the that “society” has changed.

No longer does the Pope hold sway over Kings.

Kings no longer exist in the manner they existed 300 years ago.

The social revolution has not altered the nature of God but it has altered, absolutely the role and authority of Kings and with them, the role of Organised Religions.

Religious denominations, Roman Catholic in particular, seek to cling to the authority they possessed pre the social revolution, nowadays inappropriate in this post revolutionary age.

As the saying goes “Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely”,
All that is missing is are pictures of different Popes to illustrate that statement.


Reason – well reasoned.

How absolutely weird it is to see people spouting gibberish about God in a debate over abortion. I always thought that was an American thing. The cognitive dissonace of the true believer is so strong that they fail to see they have sucessfully reduced the supreme being to nothing more than a kid with an ant farm. What place does a religious dogma have in the politics of a democracy? Should decisions that have the ability to impact greatly on the lives of individuals be decided on circular reasoning and religious dogma? Sadly, a lot of people out there think so, and why are we usually so careful to examine things we are told with a healthy dose of skepticism, but when put to us in a religious contex will blindly believe it without question? If the government is to consult anyone on the issue besides the people who elected them, it should be the medical profession, not the church and it's followers. Religion isn't morality and even the government doesn't try to make it's rewards posthumous.

Reason,
Question: Can you explain the meaning of a Spirit revealed in character and attitude?

Jesus taught the kingdom of God (where God dwells) is within the passions, emotions and intellect of man. Jesus, "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength"; this identifies our disposition toward the values of perfect Character. Jesus also taught only few who find it. Meaning the general attitudes and character of most persons do not reflect the true nature and purity of God. God is understood in the absolutes of purity, that is why we must practise confession, repentance and forgiveness. We constantly violate boundaries of good attitude and behaviour in relationships. God is revealed in good and pure relationships it's this we focus upon in true worship. Those that believe God's some distant being in the sky fail to relate to and express the Character of God. Most character in man is at enmity with God, and one cannot say that person reflects the spirit of God.

Question: Can you explain the revelation of this wisdom? How, who was involved and the veracity of the claims by these people?

Wisdom is the application of principles found to work for the blessing and best enjoyment of life. They're natural in creation - created by the God of all wisdom. Our attitudes and behaviour is demonstrated by our lives and reveals who we are. Wisdom comes from recognising how God designed Creation to best function. Violation of the best principles known to man leads to greater sickness injury and death. Hence wars are fought because of greed or injustice. Avoidance of greed, lust, dominance and selfishness is drawing closer to God

Example: indulgence in anal sex increases the possibility of infection and tissue damage not normally found in vaginal sex with one exclusive partner. Those that think they know better have cross contamination statistics of such behaviour to prove it. AIDS and other STD's indicate it is an abnormal practise. However the long exposure to such diseases because of promiscuous practises has spread these diseases across innocent people

Philo, promiscuous sexual behaviour may not be socially desirable but it certainly is not abnormal. Its estimated by the doctors that invented the heel test that 1 in 8 children are not the offspring of the man listed on the birth certificate.

Why would nature allow such perfidous behaviour to evolve. Well not all male female combinations will produce healthy children. Some blokes throw wrong 'uns. Then of course there is the theory that women may be promiscuous to increase the chance of getting pregnant. Some sperm are there to fertilise and "soldier" sperm kill off a competitors sperm.

Then of course if you listen to vets talking about good conformance in livestock you soon realise that good conformance extends to all mammals including humans and not all humans are prize specimens and thus probably less fertile.

I am away for week. No time now but will come back to this if anyone is interested on my return.

Peace...