Same old same old, edi and numbat. Verbal calisthenics, content-free.

edi provides a mysterious but ultimately impenetrable explication of my post on judgement.

>>We cant just use our limited and flawed logic... to discern what someone intends to do... I [sic] biblical terms we are to judge the fruit and not the heart, because 'only God can know the heart of men'.<<

What exactly does this mean, edi? What *can* we use our "limited and flawed logic" for? Why do we possess it in the first place, if not to puzzle out the secrets of our being and our universe?

And numbat, for crying out loud..

>>pericles: We are to judge but not condemn.<<

..who on earth said anything about condemning anybody? Judgement, as in the phrase "use your judgement", was twisted by Boaz to mean "stand in judgement over", from which he devised a reproach to RObert, who apparently had the temerity to use his brain, and come to his own conclusion. Your interjection is little more than the end result of the semantic self-gratification I spoke to Boaz about.

The use of a careful selection of words and phrases to act as "dog-whistles", simply to generate some form of emotional - as opposed to intellectual - reaction, is one of the major tools of the christian evangelist. It helps them avoid any thought process, as the conflict between what their brain tells them, and their religion teaches them, would confuse beyond endurance.

Personally I blame James and his Authorized Edition. It encourages believers to speak and write a form of sub-Nostradamus dialect, that enables them to phrase statements in a numinous fashion, one that cannot be contradicted by anyone not using the same language.

Tricky, but ultimately fruitless, as they are condemned to live in the same world as the rest of us folk, who choose to think for themselves.

STOP PRESS:

The Australian New Muslim Association has challenged Dr Peter Barnes* to a series of three debates at Bankstown Town Hall (Sydney)

The dates and topics are:

1. Friday 18 Feb - The Word of God: the Bible or the Qur’an?
2. Saturday 19 Feb - God’s man: Jesus or Mohammad?
3. Friday 24 Feb - Salvation: Grace in Christ or the five pillars of Islam?

There will be both Christian and Islamic bookstalls, and we are hoping that there will be supper afterwards. The cost will probably be about $5.

All meetings start at 7.00 p.m. There will be opportunity for questions.

Please pray for this, and support it if you possibly can.

*Dr Peter Barnes, pebarnes@ezylink.net.au is a minister at the Bankstown Presbyterian Church, lecturer in Church history at the Presbyterian Theological Centre and member of the Historical Records and Library Committee of the NSW General Assembly.

Coach,

The ANMA don't know anything about that!
I find it hard to believe for Muslims to initiate 'Mohamed or Jesus' as in our faith we can't differentiate between prophets.

Are you sure it is not one of those 'churchomercials' to lure the faithful? that $5.- thingy with dinner is a bit....hmmm..

Grow up!

numbat, if I've offended you as a non participant in coaches denigration of non christians as I attempt to rebut his comments I apologise for doing so.

I have attempted to make it clear that I prefer not to expose christains to my views. I would strongly prefer that coach, BD and others stop attempting to use the forum to push their religious views, if that occurs I will quite happily keep my own views about the christain God and church to the company of consenting adults.

As mentioned previously I have attempted to limit my responses to points raised by others - no agenda here to try and force others to give up their faith however I am willing to make suggestions/demands of those who make demands of me. So please feel free to believe in your God, enjoy your church but accept that while your co-believers continue to express their condemnation of those of us who do not share that belief a response to those claims is valid.

coach, whilst I now consider it was delusion I formerly believed my self to be a born again evangelical christian. I accept that christain theology gives space for free will but I also believe that it claims that Jesus is the head of the church, that the Holy Spirit indwells believers and that the christain God has previously exercised disciplinary authority on earth - Aron's sons and others in the OT, Ananias and Sapphira, the guy who's body was being turned over to Satan etc. My understanding is that a christain is someone who has amongst otherthings agreed to surrender their life to the authority of the christain God. The christain God has reportedly previously acted using that authority in a fairly direct manner. If the christian gospel is truth the only way the rest of us will know it is if the church reflects the character of it's head.

BD, back to you in another post.

R0bert

Coach et al

If god is real, and is as you say he is, and loves me and wants me to believe in him and do as he says and therefore be saved, why does he not send me a sign? I will accept the mysterious appearance of a nice cold bottle of beer on the table outside. This should be well within his power.

(nervously goes outside and checks table)

Sorry, no beer.

What's going on? I suppose the answer is that god is mighty and moves in mysterious ways and I must just have faith and believe and not question or judge or decide what is right or wrong for myself..Or is it that its all a big fantasy to make some people feel better about themselves..after all "Having no assurance of salvation and no real hope is terrifying stuff". Almost as terrifying as a whole world full of rampant religous fundamentalists!

DFXK: Hitler was born into a Roman Catholic Family, attended a Roman Catholic school and seriously considered becoming a priest. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941. The German people were also Christians - they voted for him and they also carried out his commands.

The persecution of the Jews was not new in Germany or in Europe. The Nazis were simply the ones that raised the level of persecution onto an industrial scale. The Jews were persecuted because they were considered the murderers of Christ. The persecution included the Inquisition of Spain that drove all Jews out of that country and the Albigensian crusade that massacred one third of the people in the south of France for being (among other things) harbourers of the Jews. There is hardly a Christian country that did not massacre, torture or at least adopt measures that marginalised Jews in society. The pope not only condoned this treatment of the Jews - he often ordered it. And Hitler at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926 said: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

Germany's ally, Italy, is a Roman Catholic country. The pope came out in public support of Hitler describing Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture."

Christianity has a bloody history of massacre and torture of pagans and heretics and it is steeped in their blood. The pope's tendency of giving the lands of pagans or heretics to any Christian that would go to war against them meant that there was more than a millenia of opportunists that flocked to the Christian Banner in order to go into peaceful lands where they massacred men, women and children.