Dear Abe,The Alchemist, Realist, Leigh, Fellow_Human & Donnie

Apparently we have a Catholic (Christian), possibly 3 Humanists, a Muslim, another Christian, & now myself to begin the debate. Our commonality? We live in a secular Christian-based democracy where views are able to be expressed - & were once encouraged.

There are in excess of 9000 'religions' on the face of this earth - even atheism, agnosticism & humanism are religions. Wherever more than one person exists there will be divergences of opinion. Fortunately in Australia - certainly until recently - we were free to express those differences. Suddenly, in several states, consistent with "international law" - under that great bastion of hypocricy, the UN - we aren't allowed to say anything which might 'offend' someone else. As per Eastern European legislation, the responsibility lays with the Accused to prove that they aren't guilty. How does one prove that one hasn't vilified? Thus there is no "presumption of innocence" - only guilt. Tribunals abound. Judicial decision-making often shows a lack of maturity, & inconsistency in logic. Rarely does morality or ethics embellish the legal decision.

Porngraphy, prostitution & immorality abound. Few object - except if their wife or daughter is the 'victim'. Graffiti appears in every suburb. We condone adultery, lying under oath etc - we have become self-centred. Is it any wonder that there is objection to dissociative behaviour?

However, until we accurately define differences, & until we stop mislabelling them there can be no chance of countering them. Society will remain in a constant limbo of "tolerance to the intolerable".

With respect to Abe (& Fellow_Human), I believe that you have initially missed the appreciation of the word "dawah" in your summation. I am astounded at how much more I know about the Qur'an than does my Muslim hairdresser. He is ashamed of some of its inclusions.

Cheers all

Sorry but Muslims will never fit into Australia. People who do everything by one book, who are forbidden to think for themselves,who live,marry,procreate according to rules handed down fifteen hundred years ago have no place in a free modern society.
There are plenty of Muslim countries, it would be best for you all to migrate to them and we can get on with our peaceful lives without all the interference, complaints and claims of a people we never wanted in the first place.

Abe Ata opens with this statement

>>Clear-thinking Australians point out that whatever wall exists between the Australian Muslim and Anglo-Australian communities, … is founded on the values and ideals which two different groups of people hold in their heads.<<

Then follows up with:

>>Significant differences in the lifestyle and attitudes between the two religions are not to be side-stepped.<<

So he distinctly sees the problem as a two-sided disharmony where the line between social and religious is blurred by his own prejudices. Integration is a non-issue. It’s “us” against “them”. i.e. Muslims against the rest (world at large).

For the muslim ethos anything not muslim is (pick one): immoral, western, pagan, anti-allah, wicked, Christian, Jewish, American, Zionist, fair-go-target, imperialistic, corrupt, dirty, capitalistic, catholic, idolatry, haram, etc, etc,…

The muslims mission therefore is to cleanse and liberate humanity by islamising the world. Any hope of dialogue is but futile and a waste of time.

People wake up - and before making idiotic comments like “rid the world of religions” or “let’s all be one Australia”… avail yourself with a copy of the Qur’an and read for yourselves. I promise you will find it very enlightening.

"Can the grievances of Anglo Australian and Australian Muslim communities be reconciled?"

Well, it depends on exactly what those 'grievances' are.

Interesting that on one case "Anglo Australians" has no religious connotation, whereas Australian "Muslim" communities does. Presumably from the question, the Muslim grievances are religious and the Anglo grievances are not.

I don't know enough about specific Muslim grievances, but I sure do about Anglo Australians. Its all been said so won't repeat. F.H. said it very clearly.

Within the scope of 'Muslim Grievances' there will be shades of difference depending on their ethnicity and history, but also on their understanding of Islam today. (also related to the ethnohistory)

If a grievance is 'Islamic State' for Australia, well, no deal.
If it is "We don't like Pork being sold in markets we go to" well sorry no deal.
If its "Dont treat us like others when we have a domestic violence problem" sorry..no deal

If its "Don't point out things about Mohammed you find distasteful" sorry no deal :) History is history.

If its "Why do you not want us to use a 1kw PA system to amplify our call to prayer 5 times a day to the community" sorry.. no deal.

If its "Let me stop work at least 3 times a day during work hours for Islamic prayer" sorry, no deal.
If its "Dont swim near our women at public beaches" sorry, no deal.

If its "Be friendly to us when you meet us in the picnic area" -deal.
If its "just talk and relate to me as you would to anyone" -deal.
If its "why don't you socialise with us more" -deal, just bring your own food :)or eat mine. (I've been eating it for years and haven't grown 2 heads)

Little Buddy, Mickjo, BD and Coach, (the usual ‘Mosque-teers),

The ‘passion’ for Islam bashing is inescapable in your case. No where in my comment did I use the word Islam or Muslims!
Lebanese gangs is a: a) youth and b) Lebanese issue only. If it is Islam related, where is the Turksih gang, Afghani gang, Pakistani gang and Indonesian gangs?

Why there is also Lebanese Christians gangs (Bexley and St George areas). In november 2001 I was robbed by a gang with knives (one was wearing an XXL cross).

Little Buddy,

What you are saying about many Australians Muslims who understand little about the Quran is a sad fact. I get the same impression from the comments by Muslims on my blogspot. Maybe you should educate them as well.

Wendy,

I think one key issue is parenting/ home where these guys grew up. It may sound strange but I find youth from the very same Middle Eastern countries have better upbringing there than those who were brought up in Australia and claim to be of middle eastern origin. I think its three elements:
1. Home / parenting: parents should discipline their kids ( I have seen many cases where they discipline girls only and leave the boys loose on the streets).
2. School/ discipline: unfortunately Australian schools seem to care too much about the academic achievement. I will get a lot of heat on this but teachers should have the good old right to discipline kids the way we were. My generation still look down rather than feasting their eyes at beautiful girls and still stand up for disabled and pregnant ladies on the train.
3. Law enforcement.

Just an opinion,

Peace,

Human beings are human beings, the similarities outweigh the differences. On an individual level, leading a moral life and treating people as people irrespective of background etc dissolves many of the apparent problems between people of different origins, religion etc.