The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Acknowledging differences > Comments

Acknowledging differences : Comments

By Abe Ata, published 16/1/2006

Abe Ata: Can the grievances of Anglo Australian and Australian Muslim communities be reconciled?

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 9
  7. 10
  8. 11
  9. All
Nice try Abe, but you just don't get it do you. Australians accept and acknowledge difference. But as long as religion is involved, we will have dissension, fear violence and destruction. On one side you have those with primitive minds, who have just recently started to come out of the dark,(christians). On the other, those that not only have primitive minds, but primitive behavior as well, (muslims).

Just look at the muslim Hajj, each year hundreds get killed, trying to throw stones at a man made wall. Now thats really intelligent. They come in their millions just to throw a few stones. Can't you understand why the intelligent people of the world, are becoming increasingly disgusted with religion and the religious.

Then we have the Irish orange and the green conflicts, plus the mighty christians right, destroying everything in their path to gain the oil riches of the world so that they can control it. Destroying cultures and people in their rush to convert, hasn't got them the power they want, now its oil.

Its not cultures Abe, its religion. Because all religions are fictitious, the followers can only resort to violence in the end. They have no scientific, or historical fact to support their delusions. So they resort to threats of damnation, then abuse, then [physical violence.

I would actually feel sorry for the religious, if they weren't so destructive and ridiculous.

I prefer to see them as they are, the despotic and dangerous clowns of the world.
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 16 January 2006 10:44:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I hear you achelmist.

350 dead at Mecca. That was an act of god wasnt it. if god was protecting us, he would not have let 350 of his followers die just completing a ritual. If anything, and looking at the current world, this Muslim god must be a bloodthirsty one.

When will people stopped being fooled? Take religion away and you are free. I promise. Know their is a ruler out there, but dont waste what little time you have on earth worshipping. God would much rather see you a successful, fruitful person who benefits the world than an avid follower of the man made religious entities.

Australians have had the luxury thus far of being somewhat classless, free from tight religious identity and restriction. We like everyone, we give everyone a fair go, and it is biting us back.

There does not need to be 2 sides, but there is. It is created due to segregation and spending your free time in your own religous bubble.

Go down to the pub, even if you dont drink, we have italians, PNGs, Serbs, croats, Aussies, poms, lebanese and arab, some who are religious, some not. But walk in there at 7pm each night, people are united in having fun, and everyone is friends.

Put people on a level playing field and let them experience all kinds, and eventually they adopt what we hope they do. Racism can leave us if we adopt the paul hogan 'crocodile dundee' mentality. Everyone is different, but everyone is a legend
Posted by Realist, Monday, 16 January 2006 11:44:13 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“This new identity will come to see Muslim Australians to be like Catholic Australians, Italian Australians, Irish Australians … that is, both Muslim and Australian.”

I hope not. Why would do we insist on Italians Australians, Irish Australians etc but think Muslim Australians is OK. Muslims come from many different countries and represent many different races. Many were born in Australia.

And who calls anyone Catholic Australians? I haven’t heard of atheist-Australians either.

We should not identify most people as whatever racial/nationality-Australians, but at the same time further isolate Australians who happen to be Muslim by calling them Muslim-Australians. Muslims themselves tend to describe themselves as such too, but they also need to start thinking differently. We do not have any other religion-Australians. Why should Arabs, Malaysians, Africans who happen to adhere to Islam be any different?

Secular countries are not interested other people’s religions. Religion is a private, individual matter, and tacking it onto your identity is nonsense.

Muslims, like any other religionists or atheists, are perfectly entitled to think and live the kind of personal life they wish to. But we should all interact with each other only as fellow human beings and Australians
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 16 January 2006 12:19:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Abe,

I am an Australian Muslim and came to Australia in 1996.
In all honesty, I have seen acceptance from all Australians. I have seen some ugly behaviour from youth of Arabic background (to be specific Lebanese) which I have not seen neither in the Middle East nor in Australia from, say, Australians of Indonesian, Turkish or Egyptian origin for example.

Asking the average Australian to 'accept' wrongful behaviour is very unfair. I agree there are always youth problems but we have a specific one which we need to deal with.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 16 January 2006 12:25:15 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Alchemist, Realist,
I think it's a little too simplistic to blame it all on religion. Given that there have been many people, religious and non-religious, inclined to evil and likewise many people, religious and non-religious, inclined to goodness, and given that there have been many religious people who have committed destructive acts and likewise many non-religious people who have committed destructive acts, the common denominator of evil and destructive acts is clearly not religion or religious beliefs. It does not follow that removing religion from the equation would remove evil and destruction, so the abolishment of religion is unlikely to bring about the utopian society that you may envisage.
Posted by Donnie, Monday, 16 January 2006 12:37:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Fellow Human
Good for you and thankyou for being so honest and fair. Our kids are growing to be spolit little brats with less feeling for the elderly and others each day. The thing is what to do about it. In all honesty i think the center link money must stop. We are a nation living off one third of its people. The workers. The lebs ARE difficult and aggresive as a whole.I would be interested to hear any ideas at all from u as to how best to handle this problem
We need people like you to help everyone. Personally i feel we must be more selective of whom we bring here. We shoul give a 1 year stay or 2 year or 5 year depending on their behavour. What say u.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 16 January 2006 1:13:25 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Abe,The Alchemist, Realist, Leigh, Fellow_Human & Donnie

Apparently we have a Catholic (Christian), possibly 3 Humanists, a Muslim, another Christian, & now myself to begin the debate. Our commonality? We live in a secular Christian-based democracy where views are able to be expressed - & were once encouraged.

There are in excess of 9000 'religions' on the face of this earth - even atheism, agnosticism & humanism are religions. Wherever more than one person exists there will be divergences of opinion. Fortunately in Australia - certainly until recently - we were free to express those differences. Suddenly, in several states, consistent with "international law" - under that great bastion of hypocricy, the UN - we aren't allowed to say anything which might 'offend' someone else. As per Eastern European legislation, the responsibility lays with the Accused to prove that they aren't guilty. How does one prove that one hasn't vilified? Thus there is no "presumption of innocence" - only guilt. Tribunals abound. Judicial decision-making often shows a lack of maturity, & inconsistency in logic. Rarely does morality or ethics embellish the legal decision.

Porngraphy, prostitution & immorality abound. Few object - except if their wife or daughter is the 'victim'. Graffiti appears in every suburb. We condone adultery, lying under oath etc - we have become self-centred. Is it any wonder that there is objection to dissociative behaviour?

However, until we accurately define differences, & until we stop mislabelling them there can be no chance of countering them. Society will remain in a constant limbo of "tolerance to the intolerable".

With respect to Abe (& Fellow_Human), I believe that you have initially missed the appreciation of the word "dawah" in your summation. I am astounded at how much more I know about the Qur'an than does my Muslim hairdresser. He is ashamed of some of its inclusions.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 16 January 2006 1:58:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry but Muslims will never fit into Australia. People who do everything by one book, who are forbidden to think for themselves,who live,marry,procreate according to rules handed down fifteen hundred years ago have no place in a free modern society.
There are plenty of Muslim countries, it would be best for you all to migrate to them and we can get on with our peaceful lives without all the interference, complaints and claims of a people we never wanted in the first place.
Posted by mickijo, Monday, 16 January 2006 3:28:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Abe Ata opens with this statement

>>Clear-thinking Australians point out that whatever wall exists between the Australian Muslim and Anglo-Australian communities, … is founded on the values and ideals which two different groups of people hold in their heads.<<

Then follows up with:

>>Significant differences in the lifestyle and attitudes between the two religions are not to be side-stepped.<<

So he distinctly sees the problem as a two-sided disharmony where the line between social and religious is blurred by his own prejudices. Integration is a non-issue. It’s “us” against “them”. i.e. Muslims against the rest (world at large).

For the muslim ethos anything not muslim is (pick one): immoral, western, pagan, anti-allah, wicked, Christian, Jewish, American, Zionist, fair-go-target, imperialistic, corrupt, dirty, capitalistic, catholic, idolatry, haram, etc, etc,…

The muslims mission therefore is to cleanse and liberate humanity by islamising the world. Any hope of dialogue is but futile and a waste of time.

People wake up - and before making idiotic comments like “rid the world of religions” or “let’s all be one Australia”… avail yourself with a copy of the Qur’an and read for yourselves. I promise you will find it very enlightening.
Posted by coach, Monday, 16 January 2006 3:47:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Can the grievances of Anglo Australian and Australian Muslim communities be reconciled?"

Well, it depends on exactly what those 'grievances' are.

Interesting that on one case "Anglo Australians" has no religious connotation, whereas Australian "Muslim" communities does. Presumably from the question, the Muslim grievances are religious and the Anglo grievances are not.

I don't know enough about specific Muslim grievances, but I sure do about Anglo Australians. Its all been said so won't repeat. F.H. said it very clearly.

Within the scope of 'Muslim Grievances' there will be shades of difference depending on their ethnicity and history, but also on their understanding of Islam today. (also related to the ethnohistory)

If a grievance is 'Islamic State' for Australia, well, no deal.
If it is "We don't like Pork being sold in markets we go to" well sorry no deal.
If its "Dont treat us like others when we have a domestic violence problem" sorry..no deal

If its "Don't point out things about Mohammed you find distasteful" sorry no deal :) History is history.

If its "Why do you not want us to use a 1kw PA system to amplify our call to prayer 5 times a day to the community" sorry.. no deal.

If its "Let me stop work at least 3 times a day during work hours for Islamic prayer" sorry, no deal.
If its "Dont swim near our women at public beaches" sorry, no deal.

If its "Be friendly to us when you meet us in the picnic area" -deal.
If its "just talk and relate to me as you would to anyone" -deal.
If its "why don't you socialise with us more" -deal, just bring your own food :)or eat mine. (I've been eating it for years and haven't grown 2 heads)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 16 January 2006 3:53:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Little Buddy, Mickjo, BD and Coach, (the usual ‘Mosque-teers),

The ‘passion’ for Islam bashing is inescapable in your case. No where in my comment did I use the word Islam or Muslims!
Lebanese gangs is a: a) youth and b) Lebanese issue only. If it is Islam related, where is the Turksih gang, Afghani gang, Pakistani gang and Indonesian gangs?

Why there is also Lebanese Christians gangs (Bexley and St George areas). In november 2001 I was robbed by a gang with knives (one was wearing an XXL cross).

Little Buddy,

What you are saying about many Australians Muslims who understand little about the Quran is a sad fact. I get the same impression from the comments by Muslims on my blogspot. Maybe you should educate them as well.

Wendy,

I think one key issue is parenting/ home where these guys grew up. It may sound strange but I find youth from the very same Middle Eastern countries have better upbringing there than those who were brought up in Australia and claim to be of middle eastern origin. I think its three elements:
1. Home / parenting: parents should discipline their kids ( I have seen many cases where they discipline girls only and leave the boys loose on the streets).
2. School/ discipline: unfortunately Australian schools seem to care too much about the academic achievement. I will get a lot of heat on this but teachers should have the good old right to discipline kids the way we were. My generation still look down rather than feasting their eyes at beautiful girls and still stand up for disabled and pregnant ladies on the train.
3. Law enforcement.

Just an opinion,

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 16 January 2006 4:45:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Human beings are human beings, the similarities outweigh the differences. On an individual level, leading a moral life and treating people as people irrespective of background etc dissolves many of the apparent problems between people of different origins, religion etc.
Posted by Faustino, Monday, 16 January 2006 4:48:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Abe, you suggest that a new Australian identity will one day emerge. That day has arrived. You have identified this brave new person as the archetype of a modern day Australian. He or she now has a hyphen inserted in his or her identity which ads an air of distinction. You mention Muslim-Australians and Anglo-Australians and Italian-Australians. Would it be OK if I identified myself as an antiMuslim-Australian or an antiItalian-Australian?

What about we ad more categories? We could have Convict-Australians for those just released from prison. And we have already had the suggested Atheist-Australian. We could have a lot of fun with this. What about someone who is just over a marriage? They could be Divorced-Australian. And what about Virgin-Australian to describe young girls.

Abe, what would happen if I scanned Australian newspapers to track the arrival of Spanish migrants or Estonian migrants or Canadian migrants? Would the same amount of social dislocation be reported? Would we have accounts of the police forced to form up in large numbers to keep Australian and Spanish people apart? Would the papers carry any stories of life savers being assaulted by Estonian youths?

Abe, we've been sold a pup.
Posted by Sage, Monday, 16 January 2006 4:56:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Abe Ata,

I never call myself an Anglo Australian. Wanting to be an Australian Muslim, a Lebanese Australian so forth and so on is the problem.

If "Australian" Muslims have a grievance then go back home. If you don't want "Cronulla" again don't misbehave. Don't worry about the police, they seem to be reluctant to pull you into line.

Riots in Paris. Riots in Sydney. Trouble in Holland and Russia. What's the common thread? Bridgette Bardot would tell you but I don't think she's allowed to thanks to the minorities.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Monday, 16 January 2006 5:48:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Before starting, I acknowledge that there are many peace-loving Muslims living in Australia. Many are what we might call "nominal" or ill-informed. That doesn't mean that they can't recite (portions) of the Qur'an. It means that they don't understand it - Islam is about obedience & conformity; not analysing & understanding.

Like it or not it is a sad fact that once one studies both the Qur'an & the Sunna (Ahadith) there can be little doubt as to what the intent of Islam is as a politico-religious social order. It stands isolated from all other religions that I have studied - & I have studied many.

For the uninitiated Islam is ".. more than an academic abstract; it is a way of life." Dr Ergan Caner (former Turkish Sunni Muslim). But that functioning is based on totally different premises to all other philosophical thought processes.

There are some 126 gods in Hinduism, there is no god in Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism or Jainism etc. There is only one god in Judaism, Christianity & Islam - the Jews & Christians call Him Jehovah; the Muslims call him Allah. But that is where the similarity stops, & the differences begin.

For those interested I can recommend obtaining a copy of the Qur'an to study for yourself. It is less than the size of the New Testament, & you ought to be able to read & study it within 6-months (if you apply yourself). You can access not only the Qur'an but a lot of other material by going to: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Impatient? Or don't want to invest the time in a study of what could possibly change your perspectives on life, then the next site might suffice: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles_print.php?article_id=5158

Notwithstanding, Australia is confronted with a 'problem' which has exposed itself world-wide more recently, but is revealed in the annals of history since approximately 626AD. How we confront that 'problem' will test our resolve & will indicate our maturity. If we ignore the 'problem', then it won't go away. Our children's children will inherit the legacy which we leave them.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 16 January 2006 8:06:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I have no doubt this is going to sound nieve.... and is on a slight tangent from the initial posting but, I do not understand WHY all this disagreement and conflict has to exist. Regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, gender, economic status and religion - WE ARE ALL PEOPLE. We do not have to agree on everything... we can respect each other and our choices, values and beliefs.

I do not think that young people need more discipline, they need to be loved, parents need to actually give a damn and try not to be so focused on making a living. Times have changed, stressors are different, both on parents and young people.... Young people should not be automatically dismissed as being inconsiderate etc... give them more respect. Treat them like individuals and hear what they are saying.

People whom are immigrating to Australia have every right to be here - we are after all a 'multicultural' country.... Every non Aboriginal person whom lives here is also an immigrant of some sort, and thus, we have no right to discriminate againts others whom follow in our footsteps... Embrace the diversity and learn from it.

We are all people...
Posted by kristos, Monday, 16 January 2006 9:34:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Fellow_Human, I respect your right to express yourself. I work with four people, who are either of 'Middle Eastern' or Lebanese background.

I like these people. One is a woman who, although of the Islamic faith, has sent her teenage daughter to a Catholic high school because of the shared values and spirit within that school.

My wife has two married friends, the wife being of Turkish background, and leaning towards Islam, her husband being French and lapsed Catholic. They have two wonderful 'children' - young adults - who I could never speak highly enough about.

I have also known a devout Lebanese Islamic family, the father does the Hajj every few years: but who do not want to associate any more than they absolutely have to with the Lebanese community.

I say this because it is almost as if there are two versions of Islam: one which provides spiritual comfort and guidance, a measure of stability in a modern world full of uncertainty.

But there is also another brand of Islam that some believers use to justify abhorrent and violent behaviour, or rejection of democracy and the rights of the individual.

I can accept that devout family, and those who see the values inherent in some parts of Anglo-Celtic society.

Unfortunately I also recognise that there are elements of Islam that appear to be incompatible, as practised by some, to the culture of a modern, democratic, post-enlightenment society.

You question the existence of some 'gangs' of some Islamic cultural background. I would point you towards the activities of the gang comprised of the Pakistani (actually Pushtun) 'K brothers' who justified the sexual assault of underage girls on the basis that good girls in Pakistan didn't act the way that girls acted in Australia.

In many ways the struggle should not be between Islamics and non-Islamics in Australia: it should be between the different groups of 'Islamic believers' as to which group is to represent Islam in Australia.

That we the rest of us may be able to either accept the presence of Islam, or know who our enemies are.
Posted by Hamlet, Monday, 16 January 2006 11:14:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hamlet. The way some Muslims look and the clothes that Muslims are required to wear represents danger/war to alot of people, they see it as a threat and it triggers fear. The biggest problem for Muslims is that when they are dressed in dark attire and the same, you cannot differentiate by looking at them who is an extremist and who isn't so everybody gets painted with the same brush.

Lately I have been seeing Muslims who, whilst dressing to suit their culture including covering their head, they have used bright colours and even jewelry and I have noticed that I dont feel that concern that automatically happens when I see Muslims in dark outfits and scarfs etc. With the brighter colours they look Australian.

Muslims have to understand what their dress has been made to represent and those that are not extreme should start brightening up their outfits and adjusting their style so that there can be easier differentation. Even a change in colour, not style makes a difference.

Might sound silly, but I think that it will help, and every little bit helps. The clothes and colours that some Muslims use change the scenery and landscape in Australia in a way that terrifies Australian's.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 7:51:48 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Abe

I think your heart is in the right place but segmentation according to religon gets too complex.

How do we include the Irish Mickey-doos and Proddies in a movement towards Harmony? What about Athiest Irishmen? When you talk Christian Community you've got more components than the ingrediants of one of my mum's fruit cakes. And some of them want to be left in peace. Their peace. What about me? I'm probably agnostic...should I be left out of this harmony venture?
How are you going to deal with Shi'ite and Sunni differences and harmonise them with those among us who are satanists?

The Solomans wisdom would fail?

Nahhh to hard.

It's easier to say: Let's have our religious differences. And when we share those differences in public, which is the way with most religious belief systems, lets do it without emphasising those differences to greatly. ie don't ram down my throat how good is your religion.

Then let's have a common civil and criminal law. If there are issues groups have with those codes then by all means form pressure groups and work for change. But in the meantime live within the structure of our common society.

We've gotton along fine and become tolerant Australians in the last 50 odd years without compartmentalising by religion. Hell, I was the first member of my clan to ever set foot in a non-catholic church and that was only 40 years ago. We've all adapted to the changing Australian culture. It's worked well.
Why change a successful formular. Especially when we've watched other societies divide on religious lines with absolutely dire consequences. We shouldn't experiment with such a highly emotive mixture. Let's deal with this in our usual Australian way.

There's the rules, they are for us all and they ensure not just protection but also relative harmony. Or laws aren't just obeyed through fear of punishment they are also obeyed because of fear of the unseen consequences that may follow non-adherence, or because commonsense simply dictates adherence. Unfortunately that commonsense is our communities view of commonsense and the commonsense of the immigrants.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 8:39:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David Boaz, i am not worried that you have two heads, i have long feared that you have none. The issue is not as simple as you seek to make out.I suggest that you spend an extended period in a country foreign to your upbringing. Try to learn the lingo, and the customs, and like every Ozzie abroad we will find u in Earls Court (London), 8 Mile Creek Hotel (New York) , or in Raffles (Singapore). You are hanging out in these places for the comfort off being with your own. We are no different to the Lebanese or any other ethnic group.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 10:28:42 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hamlet (&Keith)

I appreciate your thoughts.
Islam, like other religions have those who follow it literally, contextually and/or spiritually.
Here is a good link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Jackson

Dr Jackson wrote few good articles on spirituality in Islam.

Little Buddy,

Your statement “Islam is about obedience and conformity” reflects a poor understanding of Islam and the Quran. In fact, I don’t recall a Holy book pausing every few verse to encourage believers to think and reflect except for the Quran.

The ‘problem’ you keep referring to is because fantasies about Islam is your preferred option. You don’t want to see Islam as Muslims see it and practice it. Have a look at above link or get the Pickthall or Dawood ‘meanings translation’.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 12:30:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
F.H. -not 'Muslim Bashing' this time.. I was pointing out some issues which we would be reluctant to accept in cultural terms. No offense moit :)

HEDGEHOG
I don't think you have read many of my posts, because if u had, u would know that I spent 8 yrs in Borneo, am married to an Asian, have mixed children. I've had good training in anthropology and speak English, Indonesian, Malay, and a Tribal language of Borneo. I hardly think I've been 'sheltered' as ur post suggests. But thanx for the encouragement.

A BEAUTIFUL AUSTRALIAN EXPERIENCE.. TODAY !

Went down to my business associates factory, (He makes electric motors) He is of Greek Cypriot background, and his partner in business was a German. But today, just me an he, and along comes 'Peter' also a Greek Cypriot. I'm sitting there with my friend, and he and Peter speak back and forth in English. Peter has a strong accent. He is from the Cypriot association of Vic, coming to collect a donation from my friend. I deliberately ask him "Pete, if I was not here, would you and *beep* be speaking English" ? he replies "No way, it would be Greek full on". Now.. how beautiful is that ? Just out of respect of the Aussie culture, they both speak English. Its simple good cultural manners. I go, and they revert to Greek. No drama.
While we are chatting, *Beep2* the chinese receptionist brings up some coffee. All within the frame work of the prevailing culture. NOT as some legal taskmaster, but as a binding uniting framework for all of us to share in as free people.

The Cypriot association is planning some wine tasting public event.. all are welcome, they will have some Aussies of Cypriot background in Cultural dress. They are working on a youth drop in centre. All are welcome. No government funding, just good will from the community.

The owner of my gym is Anglo, married to a Turk, the manager is Armenian. They leave their histories behind, and blossom here... as Australians.. because, it is Australia.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 4:44:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
FH,

>>...In fact, I don’t recall a Holy book pausing every few verse to encourage believers to think and reflect except for the Quran<<

Sorry I could not leave this one alone. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is that every fifth sentence or so doesn’t make any sense and the reader goes what the…and starts reading again to find it even more incomprehensible?

This is why you are encouraged to memorise it instead of studying it intelligently (or Allah forbid even start questioning its content).
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 10:44:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hello Fellow Human
Thank you for your'e honesty, I do agree with most of what you said. But unfortunately wherever Islam is there is problems, I guess you try to live by some of the goodness that is printed in the Koren, but I fear that may Muslims don't.
Regards bluerock
Posted by bluerock, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:05:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Boaz,

Thanks for appreciating the humour! No you didn't offend me at all.

Coach,

In previous interactions with you (including many you didn't respond to), your understanding of theology proved to be shallow.

If you 'wanna be Boaz', you have to do the effort of learning and studying. Please take 10 seconds to think before you hit 'post comment'.

Peace my brother in humanity :)
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:11:22 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Fellow Human,

" in fact, I don't recall a Holy book pausing every few verse encouraging believers to think and reflect except for the Quran."

Is a statement like that necessary? What possible benefit could be gained by stating that?

No other religions required?

Paris/Sydney/Russia/Holland. Common thread?
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:09:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi everyone

We'll never solve this dilemma. But errors in thinking ought to be corrected. Love is important - the greatest of the Fruits of the Spirit. So are holiness, righteousness & truth. Often we forget those three.

Kristos (posted 9:34:43 PM 16/1/06) said "I do not think that young people need more discipline, they need to be loved ..". Yes, they need love. But, we try to be their friend rather than their parent. There's the 'problem'. Parents have responsibilities as disciplinarians & mentors. Unset boundaries cause waywardness. Society has become self-centredness - Eastern philosophy. We've ignored our parental responsibilities. Love is only part of caring. Respect for authority is another. Need I continue?

Further you said: "People whom are immigrating to Australia have every right to be here ..". Well, I might say 'Do they?'. Surely they should abide by the laws & the conventions of Australia. Possibly a non-criminal history? Would you want a repetitive rapist living next to yourself? Sadly, checks aren't always possible. Non-conformity? I'm sorry, I don't really want them here - regardless of their poverty or trauma-ridden background. Nor should you if you value the safety of your loved ones.

I am not racially biassed - 50-plus% of my friends are non-Anglo-Saxon (many Middle Eastern). But I am culturally biassed when that culture diametrically opposes mine.

Lebanese ethnicity isn't 'the problem' in Austalia. Worldwide historical facts prove that religio-cultural beliefs are the root cause.

As a Christian I am told to "Test all things. Conform to that which is good. Reject all evil." 1 Thess 5:21. Thus I research - even the Qur'an & the Sunna. Muslims are told that they should obey their scriptures. They are told that unless it is in Arabic, it isn't Allah's word. Approximately 85% of Muslims don't speak or understand Arabic - they rely on their imam for interpretation. That is a dangerous precept!

All: until we can acknowledge that there are differences we can never hope to settle those differences via peaceful dialogue. Risks? Sure! Ignoring their exists though places us in peril.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:09:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Bin Laden and Khomeini are good Muslims.

Christianity however,has no political goals:

Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my Kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

(Christian principles are obligatory of course in a supra political manner. What does that mean? It matters not what form of life pertains as long as moral evil within the individual is recognised and destroyed. This is Christ's teaching. Moral evil in the Christian definition does not exist in social relations but in individuals. Islam is horrifyingly different. Qur'an and Hadith are explicit about the necessity of Islam to dominate the world. For wherever Muslims are not in charge dar-al-harb (territory of war) pertains. And this is againsts God's will. For every peaceful saying in Islamic scripture there are five horrific ones.)

Medieval Europe didn't resist Islam because they were ignorant, they knew what Islam stood for.

"Its all about interpretation" some will reply. For an expert on the interpretation of Revelation and whether Islam can cope with contextualising, read what the Pope believes

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA10Ak01.html

Moderate Muslims what must they do?

What must we all do? Well a start is to read the geo-political journalist 'Spengler' who reports for The Asiatimes

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 1:43:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Fellow Human,

The reason why I didn’t continue our interactions is that I find you very selective in your answers, you only reply to the points you want (or can) leaving many unanswered or distort the issue to suit you, make fun of me and others and disappear.

I have nothing to fear or to gain from you.

I was naïvely trying to make you reason about your religion. But I know that nothing short of a miracle will make you see the truth and break from that bondage. So I am praying for you and all my fellow humans whom I love dearly.

The Qur’anic materials I read are self explanatory; it does not take much study to comprehend its message. It even says:

“And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language (Arabic) only that they may heed”. Q44: 58 (Pickthal)

I find the Qur’an repetitious, historically, geographically and theologically inaccurate, contextually and subjectively contradictory, inconsistent with revealed truth, un-chronological, abrogated, incomplete, etc…

But still it is a miracle from Allah to those who believe it is.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 2:08:21 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
FRIEDRICH,

My statement means that one of the things that stands out when reading the Quran, in comparison with other scriptures, is the encouragement for believers to think & reflect.

No offence intended in my comment (apologies if you were).
I only quoted this comment in response to uninformed comments or obvious misleading comments.

Little A Buddy,

Your comment is correct except in a couple of areas:

1. “Quran and Sunnah are compulsory scriptures”.

Only Quran is divine (Its our belief that its is the word of God). Hadith is ‘sayings of prophet Mohamed’ PBUh who is a mortal. Hadith was left out of collection until the 3rd century of Islamic history and, even though not a corner of Islam, is relied upon for the Islamic legislation knowen as Shariaa law (which also came in effect 3rd century).

2. 85% of Muslims don’t read Arabic therefore rely on Imams:

This is not correct. First there are supported meaning translations of the Quran in English and other languages (ie Pickthall, Dawood). Meaning translation takes you close enough to the intended meaning of the original language.

Second, many Muslims contributing to this forum whom I met recently are of Anglo origin and contribute educational material in their own respective languages. Only one of them is interested in learning the Arabic language.

Coach,

Go through my last comments and responses to you, I never ridiculed your comments. All I did was explained to you how we see our own faith and correct a lot of your uninformed statements (My last 5 posts).
I interact a lot with Boaz and Kaktuz who seem to have a) studied their subject and b) can engage in a dialogue.

I don’t understand how do you claim to have found ‘love and peace’ in your religion and you are still out there bashing another faith
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 3:22:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Abe

Thank your for your article, but I don't want a "new Australia" - prefer the old one, Guess that's an impossibility?

Leigh - thanks for your post

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 6:59:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ive enjoyed reading the article and posts. I am still looking for answers on: How the communities can be reconciled? We do not have problems with other communities as some have already suggested. Perhaps they are non-adaptive to compromise and change. Because if this the case they should not have imigrated here in the first place.

How many people exist in this Muslim community that feel offended by the Australian community? There may be 300,000 Muslims in Australia but are all of them offended or only 1,500?

Perhaps Australia could run programmes like in the 1950-60 of educating new arrivals on understanding Australian ways. They do not have to accept that to be normal is go to the Pub with the workers for a beer, not all drinks served at Pubs are alcoholic, but to socialise with work mates is normal.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 21 January 2006 8:33:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Philo,

"Muslims offended"?

They come here and want Christmas celebrations banned. They come here and take over whole sections of Sydney. My hard earned goes down the centrelink drain.

Who controls the heroin trade?

Who gets 55 years years in gaol for the most perverse acts ever committed in this country?

Who burns Australian flags?

The Spanish, German, Polish, Serbs, Croats, British, French,Italian, Greek etc all assimilate.

Who was involved in the riots in Paris?

Who kills school children?

Who is it that can't get arrested for burning down a church hall? Can't get arrested for bashing Anglos up

"Offend" indeed!!
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 21 January 2006 9:00:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Philo

I doubt there will be reconciliation, as a religious person yourself can you imagine having to suppress xtianity or important aspects of it? Or me being an atheist being forced into religion, these things won’t happen freely. The basic difference is a secular and non-secular society, they just can’t co-exist.

I think we will naturally progress as Europe has and start to deport, make western cultural legislations etc. In time it is obvious muslims will not be welcome to immigrate into any western or non-islamic country.

We need to watch for claims to poly-marriage rights and welfare payments, any hint of sharia legislation such as interest free loans to muslims. Also islamic bodies on government advisory committees.

Can you really believe the majority is happy with the outcomes of Cronulla, 200 new Lebanese lifeguards as a solution to 2 weeks of social terrorism from them and massive slander on Australia as racist?

This is our country, we will make the laws.

What I think will be our saving grace, is islam is trying to hard to push itself. I have heard from European friends there is now even a split in the left, as in many lefties are moving away from supporting irrational islamic rights while still maintaining their left beliefs.

All islam has as support really is the PC, and that’s rapidly dying. Can you imagine a PC free world? Islam would fall with in a year.

Now heres a classic and current example… and a good laugh!

“In Britain, defence attorneys for radical Islamic preacher Abu Hamza have hit on a novel approach. They’re arguing that Hamza’s hate speech and incitement to murder cannot possibly be criminal—because it comes straight from the Koran.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2001006,00.html
Posted by meredith, Saturday, 21 January 2006 10:00:11 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is not about religion in itslef - it is about the clash of Islamic culture with Australian society.

The Main stream Media would have you beleive what happened at Cronulla was a "race riot",... no I don't think so -

In the crowd at Cronulla train station there were a significant number of Pacific Islanders (NZ, Tonga etc). I had been told by a friend that the Pacific Islanders had come down to the beach at Cronulla to "support the Australian way of life" -

that means there were white Anglo-Saxon Australians side by side with black Islanders UNITED against the constant thuggery and intimidation and hatred that young men of middle eastern heritage have for this country and its people. It is CLEAR that the colour of ones skin had nothing to do with it - IT IS ABOUT A CULTURE that comes down to the beach and threatens to rape white girls if they don't 'cover up', and swarms in with car loads of 'cousins' and other SCUM if their numbers are threatened.

LET US NOT FORGET THE PICTURES OF THE CCTV out of Cronulla - TWO HUNDRED plus middle eastern men doing what they have been doing continuously in the Sutherland Shire and South Western Sydney for 10 -15 years - and THIS IS WHY THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA HAVE RISEN UP - both BLACK AND WHITE AUSTRALIANS!!
Posted by Thor, Saturday, 21 January 2006 10:46:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Little Agreeable Birdy,

I understand where you are coming from and agree partially with what you have said... I would like to highlight that I said young people need to be loved... not mollycoddeled and wrapped in cotton wool..... you made an assumption that I meant that love involved parents being soft with their children. That was not at all what I envisaged. You are correct in stating that young people need boundaries.

As a relatively young person myself (25) whom in the past has worked as a counsellor with young people who self harm and have suicidal ideation, I can strongly say, YES young people need boundaries and discipline, but that needs to be combined with respect, flexibility and love. Young people have nothing to model their own actions on, other than what they see around them - if Australias young people are 'wayward' it is only a reflection of their mentors and adults in society. I fully agree with you that Australian society has become self centred, not to mention materialistic, racist, homophobic and so forth.

And as for having a possible rapist live next door to me, I might already and would not know. Regardless of race, religion or culture I do not agree with criminal behaviour, and would not wish to expose anyone to it. You are making as assumption that a higher number of 'criminals' are entering our population than are already here, dont forget Australia was founded with convicts.


I sure hope that we never need to seek refuge in another country, who would accept us after our prev and current behaviour towards immigrants and refugess?
Posted by kristos, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:17:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
kristos,
Please on the use of, "dont forget Australia was founded with convicts." Hardened murderers and criminals, were not the basis of the type of convicts sent to Australia. The convicts were generally nothing more than petty theives, like 'stole a loaf of bread' etc. Australia had equal numbers of free settlers and law enforcement arrive in early settlements.

You may not be interested in the 12,000 legal criminality checked refugees that enter Australia each year, but belive the leftist propaganda that only illegal refugees need fighting for to remain in this country. There appears to be strong elements of left propaganda rather than factual balance occurring in your opinion.

Much of the new criminals are entering Australia on family reunion. Note how many flee to families overseas when in trouble with the law. The proportion per head of some identifiable ethnic groups is far greater than the typical Australian home-grown criminal.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 22 January 2006 12:48:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Most of the immigrants we are getting from the middle east have shall we say colourful backgrounds.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Sunday, 22 January 2006 1:10:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
here we go, the racist slurs against Ausralians once again.

Bunch of racist, xenophobic, materialistic convicts.

Why was I ever allowed in!
Posted by Verdant, Sunday, 22 January 2006 2:11:37 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I mean it gets confusing. I am told by Kristos for eg that as an Australian I have to allow other cultures to change my culture and just accept it. But as I am an immigrant, (as is everyone according to Kristos) shouldn't I also be allowed to say what culture I want here?

Is there some sort of dividng line here I am not aware of? Some migrants get to change the cultural landscape but others are called racist, xenophobic, materialistic if they want a say in how the culture evolves? Does Kristos not tolerate everyones views, just some? But preaches tolerance?

Kristos, I will gladly go if you pay me compensation for migrating to country that sold itself as being free. Seems it isn't. I am always being persecuted for my political views by people such as yourself. What country can I go to where my basic human rights are respected? Where I can speak freely on political and social issues without being treated with no human dignity. You imply every other country on earth is better treating of political asylum seekers than Australia, pray tell me where this utopia exists?
Posted by Verdant, Sunday, 22 January 2006 2:27:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
guys!!
Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinions - which I enjoy being privy to greatly - just as I am entitled to my own. We are driven by own our values, beliefs and experiences, each of which differ with every individual... I BELIEVE that human beings are human beings and everyone deserves a fair go.... For me coming from a family of criminals and cousins who are in and out of jail for various crimes, if someone had of assumed me to be the same as the rest of my family than maybe today I would be. But fortunatly I was given a go and have been able to make positive life choices. Thus, I choose to bestow that opportunity apon others, YES this may not be what is seen as the 'right' choice, but until I see reason to be otherwise - that is who I am....

Philo - I agree with your comment about the convicts... And thankyou for the other info, as I said in my intial posting I know my opinions may be nieve (or as you said - left propaganda), and that is why I am here - to learn more :)

Verdant - my racist etc etc comment was directed at everyone, including myself.... I so strongly think that people make judgements about others without giving them a go first... I do not wish to minimise anyones political view or experiences, I am just stating my own.

I want everyone to be able to speak freely, which was why I was doing so.... and now I am the one needing to justify my political views....

Our culture will evolve in a way we have no control over, so rather than fighting against it we could all work together and be a bit more humanistic about it...
Posted by kristos, Sunday, 22 January 2006 3:31:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"our culture will evolve". What culture?
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Sunday, 22 January 2006 3:51:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
BOAZ_David

Thanks for last Tuesday's post. Quite moving. You raised a very pertient point.

kristos

I have enjoyed reading your posts. Don't be disheartened by others' responses. You need a thick skin to remain alive and well on OLO. Nit picking is common in most threads. C'est la vie.

I too have extensive experience in working with suicidal young people, and what an enigma they are.

Cheers mate
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Sunday, 22 January 2006 4:36:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Australians hate an open public display of religion as we do not see it as genuine. It appears merely to be ritual and not spiritual ie involving the inner person. Especially when we hear vile attitudes and see agressive behaviours perpetrated against us in the name of their god.

1. For Australians prayers are in private and reflect the inner desires of our heart.
2. Wearing garments that identify one as religious in the Australian mind is: "I am pious", therefore more religious than you.
3. Australians are care responsive community contributing charity as in the 2004 tsunami appeal.
4. The Christian Australian has no sacred territory, so kissing stones, or stoning the wall of the devil, or sacred trecks these are seen as vain passions.
5 Australians do not see their beliefs being forced upon another against their will and conscience in a political way.
6. Australians do not believe Religion or ritual should set the day with first light calls to prayer from minerets.
7. Australian's lives and minds are not bound by ancient texts. They can read and reflect upon them but do not see them as mind controll authority without question.

Others can add more and clearer points of why this type of public religious culture is offensive to Australians.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 23 January 2006 5:17:15 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
With all these various brands of religion, and especially with the almost demonic conjunction of of Emperor George II of Texas, I had to have a response that treated all citizens in reasonable equity. As a graduate in religious studies it perplexed me. So here's my theology.

I am Australian. I believe that anyone; sixth generation, six-hundredth generation, migrant, refugee or whatever, on the electoral roll (this is an expression of Australian citizenship), can be truly Australian only when they have constructed a trinity of Oz. Being born somewhere is inevitable if you breathe, but that does not ascribe citizenship, its an accident of the geographic location of one's mother. The trinity of Oz does not give a damn about that accident, it simply demands knowledge of the uniqueness of this nation nation in three domains:

1. knowledge of how we are NOT American, European, African, Mongolian, Brazilian or whatever.

2. knowledge of the land and environment that is unique to Australia.

3. knowledge of the unique nations that first inhabited this land for countless generations prior to European occupancy.

From this, anyone can really be Australian, regardless of birthplace, and no one has any a-priori rights outside of an expression of good manners to first occupants.

My response to the; opus dei, muslim extremest, moral majority, right wing christian, and zionist or any religious extremist wanting to evangelise their myth, into my life, is the same for all of them.

"Listen Mate, we live in a democracy NOT a theocracy. If you want one of them and you want their; overseas policy/sociology/way of life/theology inflicted in Oz; sod off to Iran, Israel or Northern Ireland."

"But if you hang around, be mindful of our Constitution:"

116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion...

"So, you want to bash your book, your theology, your religious social mores, and inflict it on me and my fellow Australians? You've got one vote, so have I. Use your democratic vote if you chose, a vote that is no more or less than mine - or, like I said "Shut-up and POQ!"
Posted by Sapper_K9, Monday, 23 January 2006 12:24:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sapper K9,

Excellent comment. Secularism have no religous roots and she remain that way.

Those who want to force religious values on others whether Sharia or Judeo-whatever should consider Saudi, the Vatican and Israel.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:51:57 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Philo

Thanks for your most recent post. Much food for thought!

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:55:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sapper K9

Welcome to the forum!

I second Fellow Human's vote of confidence and agree that politics and religions make for antagonistic partners.

The only way to have religious freedom is to keep the government secular.

I am tired of being told how to live by any religion.

Philo - you post has made a very strong argument in favour of separation of church and state.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 8:14:04 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Fellow-Human (post 3:22:38 PM 18/1)
Point #1 acknowledged; I disagree re #2 - Qur'an is considered non-'divine' & inaccurate in non-Arabic language (I have Dawood version & consult with Islamic scholars). Much of the world is still illiterate - especially amongst backward Africa & Asia.
We've probably met. Philip Ruddock?

Friedrich (posted 9:00:14 AM 21/1), et ali
You seem well-versed on past occurrences.
A Sydney-based religious leader was 'allegedly' stopped in the inner-west several years ago. He was unlicenced, uninsured & unregistered. 'Trouble' for him?. "No!" Not even the 'alleged' loaded firearm on the backseat of the car was sufficient for the DPP to proceed with the charges. The post-1996 'new' Firearm laws were activated. You or I? Gaol!
What about the 1998 Menai McDonalds' riot? 5 good Police Officers (from the 6) weren't 'politically correct'. The resigned or were dismissed. The self-confessed criminal? Became a 'hero'.

Meredith (posted 10:00:11 AM 21/1)
Good one!

Thor (posted 10:46:56 AM 21/1)
Thanks for acknowledgeing what I continually say. It is a religio-cultural clash - only racial by commonality with the aforementioned.

Kristos (posted 11:17:47 PM 21/1)
You sound well-grounded for 25. You serve the less-fortunate? That's great. However, I have lived in Sutherland Shire since 1978. A minority have been spoiling it for the majority for 20-plus years - without intervention. Those individuals have a different ideology which I've only grown to understand since 1999.
Let's hope we don't need to migrate. But if we do the rules for living are those of our host - we'll have over 400 countries to chose from.

Philo (posted 12:48:01 PM 22/1)
How true. Poverty & oppression was rife in Britain in the 18th Century. Convicts often did little more that try to survive. Sentence? Deportation.
Some recent immigrants mirror that image also. Some/many don't. Australia ought to have a choice as to whom we accept.

Friedrich (posted 1:10:29 PM 22/1)
Think that you meant "some" not "most". It is those 'some' whom we don't want because they are non-conformists & disrespectful.

Cheers
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 26 January 2006 4:35:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Scout,
I certainly do not want a Religious State where people indifferent to the Christian Gospel start telling me what to believe and how I should behave in religious ritual. That is the reason Heads of Government cannot also be heads of a State controlled Church.

The sovereign head of the state must always be the individual and the individuals right to personal belief and live by his / her own conscience. Our Sovereign representative is there for the protection of the individual from opressive and unrealistic laws brought down by Governments. An understanding of English History will outline my defense of seperation of the State from the Church. England wanted freedom from Romanism that did not allow freeedom of the individual to his own belief.

Any system even atheism if dictated by the State over the freedom of the individual to choose personal belief must be outlawwed as opressive and retrograde. The Victorian Government is begining to violate that right of expression and belief as they dictate on religious matters before Tribunals and the Courts. This is a retrograde move as they listen to laws on blasphemy from their Muslim advisors and implement them.

Anyone who takes offense at religious denegration by a word spoken or written can under Victorian laws have the person charged with vilification of a religion. Alchemist constant tirade of religion would put him guilty under Vic law if someone decided to lay charges. Dont worry Alchemist we recognise your hot air represents injury in your past psyche and we just ignore your ignorance.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 26 January 2006 8:09:12 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Philo,

Do both you and the Victorian (noun and adjective) government not know that the constitution has it all:

116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Constitutionally, we are, if not an atheisic society, then irreligious.

Sapper_K9
Posted by Sapper_K9, Thursday, 26 January 2006 9:41:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sapper_K9

You have failed to read my early posts stating the very same act.
You are stating a Commonwealth act so I am not sure how Victoria has got around the act. The Case of Dany Scott V ICV is currently before the High Court for hearing so a ruling is awaited against the Vic law as interpreted by Judge Higgins in the State of Victoria.

116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
_____________________________

Where do you come up with nonsense like this? Quote, "Constitutionally, we are, if not an atheisic society, then irreligious." WRONG! WRONG! 67% of Australians in the last census claimed to be Christian, and 47% of our politicians claim to attend Church ocasionally. We are not an irreligious society nor is our constitution irreligious - it says "We the people humbly relying upon the blessing of Almighty God". This forms part of the preamble to the Australian Constitution hardly atheistic or irreligious wouldn't you say? Try telling Kim Beasley and Kevin Rudd they are irreligious or John Howard, Tony Abbot or Peter Costello they are irreligious when they attend Church regularly. Our criminal laws are based upon the conscience of religious people.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 26 January 2006 10:42:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Almighty God? Aha, that one, the King or Queen of England's god? But if I'm forced to have one, I want an Australian god?

Can I have one of those please? Must be one eh? I mean there are thousands around the world, one of them must be on the dole? How many died in the recent tsunami? Second World War about 36 million? 6000 children a day die? Seems to me she's a vindictive old cow, and very bloodthirsty at that. Nah, second thoughts, don't want one, I'll have a good dog thanks, real unquestioning service, loyalty and demonstrable love that I can unquestioniningly reciprocate.

Who or what is this "Almighty God" anyway? Depends on one's own definition. The point is that you miss the point. What we are personally, or statistically, is not the same as what we are constitutionally. And the preamble is NOT a part of the LAW that is the constitution, its a parliamentary convention. So that's what she is, a parliamentary convention!

Ergo; we are, constitutionally, an irreligious, ie. indifferent to religion, society. QED.

Like I said, want a theocracy? Sod off to Iran, Israel or Northern Ireland, all prime sources of blood for your "Almighty" whatever. Tibet's been fixed by China, so that's no longer on offer.
Posted by Sapper_K9, Thursday, 26 January 2006 11:50:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks for not disappointing me Philo, for awhile I thought you were beginning to think. Veiled threats I am used to from the philosophically blind and paranoid religious. Throughout the ages, those that put forth fact against religion are always crucified, remember that bloke 2000 years ago.

But my hands and feet are prepared for religious vengeance, well bathed in holy anointing oil, so no pain and I already have large scar on the right side of my chest. I told them to be careful where they aimed the spear, but you know the religious, can't see very far ahead.

You answer lots of our questions by pointing out how religious our political leaders are, hence the reason for our growing social dilemma. Our legal system is also controlled by the religious, another reason we have no justice, just religious bigotry.

Vilification laws, just another religious attempt to stifle reason and push the religious ideal of separation and conflict.

“Alchemist we recognise your hot air represents injury in your past psyche and we just ignore your ignorance. “

Philo, my view of religion changed after my experiences on active service and consequent studies. That change was further enhanced by a life threatening physical condition that I over came and have been able to control for many years. Consequently, I spend a great deal of time supporting those in the same situations, lots of time in palliative wards, watching and supporting people dying in confusion. Not once have I seen your god give any help, even after much praying and pleading by patients and their relatives.

I have watched as self righteous representatives of your god, have given false hope and little support. Those that have been able to overcome their problems, have done it without your gods help and in many cases, in spite of the interference by religion.

Philo, like the rest of you, your heads are so big and filled with fear and hate, that they are always bowed with the weight of guilt your beleifs carry.
Posted by The alchemist, Friday, 27 January 2006 6:12:08 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Philo (posted 8:09:12 PM 26/1/06)
Hear, hear! Nor do I wish to live in a theocracy. A secular democracy based on Christian principles is fine. Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims & any of the 9000 worldwide religious views - which includes Atheism & Agnostism - are free to practice their religion alongside mine.
As suggested, it's sad when politicians can't distinguish the semantics & connotations of our English language. Thus the populace is confused. The media add to it interfusing "racial", "religious", "cultural". No one can change their racial or ethnic heritage. If I'm black then I'm black. We can change our beliefs - they are voluntary. Racial intolerance is unacceptible. However, I don't have to accept alternative beliefs. Nor should I enforce others into silence - unless they threaten societal welfare. The law handles treason or assault. There ought not to be any for vilification - I have been insulted many times in my life; I just ignored the other person.
The Racial & Religious Tolerance Act (Vic.) 2001 sets individual against individual with a presumption of guilt. The outcomes would be humourous if they weren't so serious. Why is a judge still practicing after some 106-plus errors at law? He misquotes & attributes comments to wrong persons, et ali.
I must correct your comment (posted 10:42:43 PM) though. It is not the High Court to which the ICV vs CTFM case next goes - it is the Supreme Court. However, the High Court would probably overturn the original decision - even if the Supreme Court doesn't ( & there's high likelihood that it will).

Sapper_K9 (posting 9:41:42 PM & 11:50:38 PM 26/1/06)
Your comment that the Constitution is "irreligious" is abjectly wrong. You need to investigate the writings of its founders & the comments of Quick & Garran, & to embrace the Preamble.
Your comment "the King or Queen of England's god?"? That shows ignorance of the makeup of Christianity - there are far more non-Anglo-Saxon Christians than your appraisal suggests. You also show an ignorance of the content of Christian Scripture.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Saturday, 28 January 2006 3:49:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Aha, "Christian." What is one of them? Bit like a "Muslim" eh? Of which type of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Pty Ltd do you speak?

You see, should you look at the stats for the apostles in thirty-something CE as they relate to the population of Judea, you arrive at the same ratio as that of Avon Ladies to the population of Australia today. And this marketing exercise is conducted by umpteen different "brands" of this Judaic sect of HS BN BRBB (Hesu Ben Barabba) the bastard son of a Bethlehem woman and a Roman soldier.

A knowledge of it eh? All I do know is that a group of Iparu tribespeople cut the front from the Sumerian Creation Epic, I guess because the earth descended goddess Lilith scorned Adam as she refused to submit to him in intercourse.

A misoginistic society such as the Iparu could not have any female being seen to be attributed any power or sexuality, so the Pentateuch disposed of her, and thereafter three distinct polities of Iparu fiddle with the remainder of the epic, the Jehovists, the Elohists, and the Priests. "Christians" (spinoff Romanised Helenic Jews?) some millennia later claim this remnant Sumerian text as their own! Plagiarism, theological theft from the Sumer civilisation and society.

Its all of no consequence, our constitution says so.
Posted by Sapper_K9, Saturday, 28 January 2006 4:52:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Abe Ata asks: "Can the grievances of Anglo Australian and Australian Muslim communities be reconciled?" Statistics affirm the predominance of "Anglo Australian" is non-Christian. Reconciliation? That is unlikely. Islam requires a philosophical shift.

Many Muslims living in Australia are peace-loving - my hairdresser is one. Many might be called "nominal". They can often recite portions of the Qur'an. Some recite it all. Invariably they don't understand it - Islam is about obedience & conformity; not analysis & comprehension. The imam interprets. Therein may be the 'problem'.

Like it or not, once the Qur'an & the Ahadith (plural of 'hadith') are studied, the politico-religious intent of Islam is affirmed. Islam is an isolated religion - & I have studied many.

According to Dr Ergan Caner (former Turkish Sunni Muslim) Islam is ".. more than an academic abstract; it is a way of life.". However, whilst there are some 126 gods in Hinduism, there is no god in Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism or Jainism etc, there is only one god in Judaism, Christianity & Islam - the Jews & Christians call Him, Jehovah, Yahweh or Elohim etc; the Muslims call him Allah (plus 99 other names). But that is where the similarity stops. The differences begin.

I recommend studying the Qur'an for yourself. It is smaller than the New Testament. It can be read & studied within 6-months (with application). A 'free' Qur'an, & lots of other material, is available on: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
But in studying the Qur'an, be aware that it constantly corrects itself in line with Mohammad's pre- & post-flights - the later text contradicts the earlier.

For the impatient, or busy individuals, the next site might suffice: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles_print.php?article_id=5158

Notwithstanding, Australia now has a 'problem' which is recently acknowledged world-wide, but written in history since 624AD - approx 124 wars waged by Muslims between 624AD & 720AD alone. How we confront the 'problem' of hostility will test our resolve & will indicate our maturity. The 'problem' won't go away. Our children's children will inherit what we leave them.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:20:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
LittleAgreeableBuddy,
A good post.
The problems with Islam lies in the fact are Muslims in the West happy to participate in Western society or are they isolationist in their attitudes? That is they do not have to participate in the booze and sexual decadence of the typical western person; but can be even as genuine Christians are not involved in such cultural decadence.

While we have Immams preaching hatred of Western culture and the installation of shari'ah rather than positive messages on personal character and living hospitibably in a foreign culture the cultural isolation will become even more evident. Christians are taught to live in the culture but not adopt the moral decadence of the local culture.

Christianity has its own culture that encourages the individual to be a preserving and enlightening influence in his / her sphere of community.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 29 January 2006 12:48:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Spot on!

and un christian Aussies are comfortable also with christians for this very reason.
Posted by meredith, Sunday, 29 January 2006 1:04:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Friedich -
Everywhere has a culture, ours may not be as old as others but it exists nontheless

Kay -
Thankyou for your encouragement :)

Little Birdy - thankyou also for your comments... On a tangent (yet again) I wonder if the 'minority' you speak of feels in any way part of the community? If they have remained on the outside of the majority they may not see a need to partake in what is deemed to be the norm?? Has there ever been any real attempts (from either side)to build a bridge between the two? Just out of curiosity how exactly do 'they' spoil things for the majority? If people in 'your' community had made an attempt to understand the minority's ideology sooner would that have made a difference?
Posted by kristos, Monday, 30 January 2006 9:53:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Martin ibn Warriq (posted 1:43:10 PM 18/1/06)
I confused by your opening statement that "Bin Laden and Khomeini are good Muslims.". It's inconsistent with the remainder of your posting. Maybe it was the first few words meant I missed you initially?. The 'Spengler' article is revealing, especially the quote:
"It is universally known among scholars that alternative texts of the Qur'an have been discovered in various archaeological sites - something of an embarrassment for the Archangel Jibril .."

Coach (posted 2:08:21 PM 18/1/06)
Keep on saying it like it is!

Fellow_Human (posted 3:22:38 PM 18/1/06)
I responded previously in my post @ 4:35:08 PM 26/1. I acknowledge that the Qur'an & Sunnah are compulsory scriptures & that the Ahadith are the words of Mohammad's associates, relatives & later scholars. My instruction was that the 'inspired' word of Allah only came in Arabic. Do you have a different opinion on that claim?

Sapper_K9 (posted 4:52:43 PM 28/1/06)
Your comments & the tone of your language only exposes who you are - ill-informed & self-righteous.
Being unfamiliar with some of the contents of your posting I sent of some copies to several academics around Australia for their appraisal. Don't be too worried though. Several of them weren't Christian. One was anti-Christian, though a friend. The replies were consistent. One quote might suffice, being:
"Hi xxxx (aka LAB),
This guy does not know what he is talking about. That is why he has put up a facade of academia. Do not answer a fool according to his folly."
The respondent isn't a Christian because he would have known not to call you "a fool" - it's contrary to Matt 5:22.
I didn't take his advice, not to respond, only because I didn't wish you to become more conceited than you apparently already are. [Everyone look at his post.]

Meredith (posted 1:04:49 PM 29/1/06)
Thankfully, in most cases. I just wish that the non-believing mathematicians would read the Scriptures & do a probability study analysis on Christ being who He claimed to be. It is irrefutable once done. Amazing!

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 30 January 2006 10:24:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
kristos,

"what culture"? The point being it is a "multi-culture". That is not culture.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 5:58:08 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The qusetion is: "Can the grievances of Anglo Australian and Australian Muslim communities be reconciled?"

This is dealing with attitude and behaviour not tolerated by each side. There are critical cultural values being expressed in the conflict between the communities.

Example: One wants women to completely cover as Muslim women otherwise they are fair game for prostitution; the other wants the right to expose their bodies on the beach for sun and pleasure withour crude sexual comments and threats. This is one difference in values that confronts the two comunities.

Where is the point of reconciliation if both want these values as a right? One sees reconciliation as surrender of the other to their views.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 5:57:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi all

Kristos (posted 9:53:39 PM 30/1/06)
Just missed your 'new' posting as I responded at 10:24:23PM 30/1/06.
If you mean 'minority' (nominal) Muslims, then I'd possibly say "no". They may feel disenfranchised from all groups. That doesn't mean that they don't socialise. Like anyone else though, they seek people with common interests. But, they avoid discussion about religion - though I've engaged some.
I've attempted some reconciliation & dialogue - "Mornings with Kerri-Anne" was one such event. But it got waylaid by a 'hidden' agenda when George NEGAS & Rev (misnomer) James HAIRE agreed with Kerri-Anne that all religions should "throw away their text & just love each other." Keysar TRAD cunningly made 'no comment'.
The violence by Muslim youths possibly stems from 'factions' &/or teachings from within certain mosques.
Interfaith dialogue amongst 'moderates' unfortunately often attracts Muslims like Farouk ALFRAKHANI who 'allegedly' make death threats - "allegedly" because its sub judice.
Still we try!
But the inherent problem is the “An-Nasekh wa Al-Mansoukh” (abrogating & abrogated text) - making discussion difficult, & confounding those who only have a partial knowledge. The focus of the imam is then the next contention.

Philo (posted 5:57:58 PM 31/1/06)
Pretty clear & simple analogy. Doesn't leave much room for negotiation.
I don't know that I particularly want the Pamplona bulls racing through Mrs Macquarie's Chair (Sydney), a fox hunt through Kurrajong or a Haj to Airs Rock either.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 8:47:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Cronulla riots did not ultimately spring from the attack on the Surf Life Savers. According to Eye witnesses it began with Middle Eastern Muslim males hanging around the toilet block at Cronulla making lewd comments to girls entering the block. When local males challenged them about their lewd comments a fight broke out and others were called resulting in a brawl. Then text messages were sent to residents of the area to meet on the weekend as a show of strength to intimidate these middle Eastern Males.

The problem is these Lebanese Muslim men see girls bathing and sun tanning as low class sluts and fair prey for their sexual gratification. When they are refused they make threats of violence against these girls. Many of these girls are only 12 - 13 years of age and feel really threatened.

This is an attitude problem that mainly exists in the comunity. Many moderate Muslims find no problem in assimilating and sun bathing like the rest of Australians. The problem exists in Muslim communities where women have a total cover up dress code and their virginity is essential as a marriage vow.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 6:00:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Philo,

"12 or 13 years of age". How have decent people put up with that perverted behaviour?

The truth is slowly emerging.

You do realise Philo by saying that you may be seen as racist. Some people don't like the truth. Ask Nick Griffin. Better still ask a soldier that has returned from Iraq. Ask them about the locals. Not the ones you see on television. I could say it here but I would be banned for eternity.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 6:32:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 9
  7. 10
  8. 11
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy