Sydney, what's up? Why do you get so many posts? Does Graham know about this?
Secondly, you haven't answered my question about Kepler and co.

And now to the clock. Sorry for not getting to this before I just kept on running out of room.

How about some links-
http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/revol.html
http://www.beaglesoft.com/maintimehistory.htm#Mechanical%20Clocks
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/request/setTemplate:singlecontent/contentTypeA/conWebDoc/contentId/333/viewPage/1
http://www.atimetoremember.net/clockhistory.html

This is a good one-
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa072801a.htm

Alan said” For instance, when you spoke of clocks you made the comment that the escapement mechanism was necessary for accurate timekeeping, yet history also records that there was an accurate timing device in the 7th century. Mentioning this would have made your point weak.”

Yes you are right typical mention is about this is “Su Sung' and his colleagues designed and constructed a highly complex mechanism that incorporated a water-driven escapement, invented about 725 AD.”

Bravo! But wait. Who was this Su Sung? He was Chinese and he made the clock in China. Therefore outside of Christian Europe so your point is irrelevant. Also if you could refer me to who said it was accurate? I can give many examples of why the expansion of water due to heat would make it inaccurate.

And so then what happened? Did everyone get a seven meter high water driven time piece in their home or town square during the Dark Ages?

No they used sundials. This is the typical statement of timekeeping during that period. “During the period of 500-1500 AD, the development of time measuring devices in Europe is known not to have improved in any great way technologically, relying on the use of the sundial and principles of measurement used in ancient Egypt.”

So no clocks there. YngNLuvnit I will get to Kepler and my statement next.

Alan said ”You ignore inventions that still applied in that shorter period and the many innovations made and for some reason, even though it has been shown to be false,…”

Alan where have you shown me that what I have said was false? Please give me a reference other than Stark or your belief in him to analyze. See when you make a statement you need to back it up with some evidence otherwise it’s just blind faith and not historically accurate.

PS Will cover Mechanical Escapements later.

"How easy, how convenient it would be to turn our minds around to this manner of thinking. How many doors to unspeakable hedonistic licence and pleasure it would open up, how free we would be, to follow our carnal impulses, to explore all the sensuality that the human form can experience The hard-drive of our soul is totally re-formatted."

David let me tell you something. The day a person realises, when it finally hits them, that for all those years of religious brainwashing from childhood on, that its a heap of gobbledygook, that people who they trusted have deceived them for so long, that their brain was indeed wrongly formatted, is the most liberating day in their lives.

The guilt goes, the fear goes, reason sets in and finally they can experience being human at its fullest potential.

You behave a certain way as you fear judgement day. You feel guilt about sex because of fear and religion. My morality and ethics are based on far sounder footings, my ability to reason. My ability to have my own philosophies and values, based on my ability to reason.

Your life revolves around addiction to religion. You quote your holy book. Quite frankly, that is as impressive to me as if you quote what the lady down the road at Coles said :)

Perhaps one day it will hit you, perhaps not. If it ever does, before the worms get you, rest assured it will lift an enormous burden off your shoulders, only sadness that you have been hoodwinked for so long and on such a grand scale.

Morality without standards leads to anarchy. The Bible provides standards to live by and when these are rejected for man's relative standards we go down the rapid road to self destruction. Freedom wihtout responsibility is the name of the game and we see the evidence of it in school bullying to riots and terrorism. One can operate under law or under grace. Those who see the Bible as a rule book operate under law and this is the basis of guilt. Those who see the Bible as a book of the grace of God experience true freedom with responsibility and this produces life and that abundant. The rebellious spirit of this age will rebel against anything Godly and thus result in its own destruction.

Jeshua

I'm exhausted. Just ploughed through those many dozens of posts, which contain the outpourings of no more than two or three score people. It all started with a quite unexceptionable article about a plainly most temporal organsiation and its funny money, political influence and backing for creationist propaganda in its new clothing.

About half of the responses are just full of incomprehensible mumbo jumbo, with many seeking to argue or refute simply by reference to the bible. This self-referentialism makes dogmatic Christians seem to end up chasing their tails up their own fundaments trying to sound rational.

The truly striking and ironic thing about 'Intelligent Design', that seems not to have been much remarked upon, is that this 'theory' (which it certainly is NOT, with its a priori premises) has been designed with so little intelligence - or did it just 'evolve', mindlessly but without the benefits of natural selection? As a concept it makes about the same amount of sense as that oxymoronic term, 'reality TV'.

Philo, understanding a persons belief, means putting yourself in their shoes and learning that belief. It's no good discussing flying a plane with a pilot, if all you have done is sit in the back of the plane.

Its the same with religion, 99% have no idea what they are talking about, just cling desperately to an idea they have. Jeshua, coach and others have no understanding what Christianity means, or its history. Their fear has brainwashed them into paranoia, leaving no room for ethical understanding.

I don't discuss the workings of Islam, because I have not studied it enough. However the application of it doesn't require learning, as with other religions, its example is sufficient. When religion applies itself in a way that represents what its follows espouse it to be, things may change. I have the greatest respect for those that truly apply their religion fully to their life in an ethical manner, they are few.

My understanding of what religion really represents, is not for the superstitious or faint of heart. It explains our world situation adequately.

Jeshua, morality is a religious cultural, illusional concept, designed to control its followers. Ethics, are displayed by all living beings, keeping order in the natural world. The religious lack ethical understanding and application, if they did, they would approach life in a vastly different way. Then those that don't believe would have more respect for the religious. True freedom is when you have nothing holding you in check, not something forcing you into narrow fearful repetitive dogma.

Religion is full of guilt, thats why its followers blame everyone else for it's despotic history. The most glaring fault in ID, is if the universe were created in perfection, there would be no progress, as nothing would need to change.

The bible, has less ethical and moral lessons, than Lord of the Rings. Its a pity it's not read in its truth, as there are ethical lessons within it. But that can't happen, it would free everyone from religious bonds, that would mean a loss of control.