Religion;
Maybe it is time that religious organisations started to pay their fair share of tax, ie, rates, etc, instead of getting a free ride to preach disharmony at the expense of the majority.

Just as OBL doesn't speak for Islam these white trash don't speak for Australians let alone Anglo's.

Irfan is nothing but a racist.

Once again, defending the thugs, the redneck racists in his community which have caused this extraordinary, out of character behaviour by white Australians.

Has anyone ever seen whites doing this? Even though the middle-eastern communities are our violent crime capitals?

Irfan, ANGLOPHOBIA is a BIG BIG Problem in your community. Just a few hours ago yet another night of rioting by Mid East Thugs.

It happens in France, UK, Denmark, Belgium, every single place your community settles. Yet it is we who are racists? That image of the Lebo, as they call themselves, being bashed on the train is an image Aussies have learnt to live with. Canterbury Bankstown jersey wearing thugs.

WHAT HAPPENED ON SUNDAY WAS A REACTION TO YEARS OF RACISM, INTIMIDATION, SEXUAL ASSAULTS ON OUR WOMEN.

Until we start to acknowledge that non-whites have agency, we'll get nowhere. Sadly, the leftist academic types don't think you have any!

This is why the white man has to be the adult and cop the years of racial abuse we've put up with. Admit the problem? Muslim leaders deny it even exists, even though some are serving 55year prison terms for this RACIST BEHAVIOUR.

I disagree with the method those at Cronulla used, although I can certainly understand their frustration. How long does a community have to put up with Lebanese Muslims sexually harrassing their daughters?

It's scary because nothing will be done. Lebanese thugs smash up areas each night now, yet this is retaliation? Sunday was retaliation.

Get serious Irfan. Muslims cause trouble everywhere. What has Islam got to do with it you ask? Firstly, they all came out cheering Alla Akbar from Lakemba mosque, after bashing a TV crew because they were Anglo's (a common event, and which those at Cronulla were sick of)
and it all comes down to how Muslims view non-Muslims. As second class people. Sharia Law admits this is how we dhimmis are to be treated the second your community gets the chance to vote it in, so why don't you? Mabye you practise Islam-Lite.

he does have a couple of good points regarding the less than convincing comments by muslim leaders to their own community and stupid comments by polies and media which only inflame the situation and troubles.
People need to take a chill pill, the police need to be more visible within the communities and make more person to person contact, Leaders on both sides need to control and direct their communities into understanding each other and make them think "Would I do this to my Mother, brother, sister, father, cousins" etc.
As has been said many times in the past an ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure.

EXTREMIST groups accused of links to neo-Nazis have admitted mobilising more than 100 people to attend the riots in Cronulla.

Jim Saleam, the NSW secretary of ultra-nationalist group Australia First, said his members had recruited up to 120 people for the rally but denied they were involved in violence.

"We do have some local supporters and these guys mobilised their family friends, mates, work-mates, associates, every Jack and Harry, to come," Dr Saleam said.

NSW Police Minister Carl Scully confirmed that extremists had taken part in the riots.

"There appears to be an element of white supremacists and they really have no place in mainstream Australian society," Mr Scully said.

"Those sort of characters belong in 1930s Berlin."

Skinheads wearing boots, braces and neo-Nazi emblems were among the mob of 5000.

Three far-right organisations -- Australia First, The Patriotic Youth League and the Newcastle-based Blood and Honour -- handed out racist pamphlets.

All three are considered to have neo-Nazi links.

Anti-race hate campaigner Matt Henderson-Hau, who runs the Fightdemback.org website, said he had information that only one of the skinheads at the rally came from within the Sutherland Shire.

"The rest came from the Central Coast, Newcastle and other parts of Sydney," he said.

Dr Saleam, who was jailed for 3 1/2 years in 1991 for possessing a firearm and organising a shotgun attack on the home of the African National Congress's Australian representative, Eddie Funde, refused to condemn the racial violence.

"Rather than say that one supports what people did, all I'd say to you is: I wouldn't condone it, but I wouldn't condemn it," Dr Saleam said.

do any of the posters who seem to be reveling in these events have the guts to admit membership to any of these groups? or are we just dealing with armchair neonazis?

I found this an excellent article, and an accurate account of the dilemma that leaves this Anglo-Celt origin Australian desperately trying to find words appropriate for an apology to every recent immigrant to this country.

John Howard is wrong. There is racism here, as anyone who listens to locals in small country towns and various other areas (obviously including Cronulla) knows quite well. What is more, John Howard's electoral strategies, described by his campaign architects and colleagues as "dog-whistling", have been built on a knowledge of this tendency, and have worked to exploit it . They even attempted to export it to the UK in the recent elections there.
Racism is not as extreme as it is elsewhere, perhaps. But it exists and can be played upon.

And if you whistle up hatred, you reap the whirlwind.

And pretend, once again, that you owe no-one an apology for doing nothing to prevent the consequences of public policy... ("No, it didn't happen -- and if it did, it wasn't me, sir !")

The last three months will go down in history as being the lowest point in Australian history since the Battle of Lambing Flat:

1. Citizens deported without cause.
2. Citizens gaoled prior to deportation because of illness.
3. 5 years of detention without trial for a citizen overseas without a murmur of complaint from our government.
4. Laws on sedition enhanced ridiculously.
5. Imprisonment without trial in secret authorised on the word of people like those responsible for 1. and 2. above.
6. Unfair dismissal assumed as right of business employers, to deploy without fear wherever convenient.

And now all this....

Meanwhile, Kim Beazley waits around playing "Follow the Johnny leader". (Again.)

Leaving the rest of us of good intent to try to clean up the pieces.

But where the hell do we start ?

Good to see all the apologists out again. PeterGM asks where do we start? Well apart from wringing your hands, gnashing your teeth and blaming the victims how about you look at the problem with a bit of honesty.

Sydney has some pretty serious racial problems. It also has a police force that's pretty quick to break out the batons when it comes to yobbos but sits back and does next to nothing when Muslim youth smash cars, assault people and pack rape girls.

The real crime here is a police force who are more concerned with pandering to "intellectual" nitwits whose main priority seems to be showing everyone how sensitive and compassionate they are, then actually protecting the community from the predations of the Muslim criminal element.

In our nation's history, those who have helped to build the same culture are not necessarily of one race, and those of the same race have not all participated in one culture. Solutions will only come from understanding this fundamental component in our racial and cultural abilities. Irfan, as usual, simply calls on those community leaders who have long understood this to be the case - to come together for the greater good. Solutions will not come from those who preach hate and intollerance.

Irfan

Your response really is very disappointing.

Of course the violence and display in Cronulla was disgraceful and cowardly. It is not the way we do things.

Your response in refering to but not condemning the violence in the other parts of Sydney, on the same Sunday, was disgraceful. Contrary to your inference that violence was perpretrated by Lebanese Muslim men.

Only you know why you didn't take that course, I'm left scratching my head. But that's ok ...as a friend used to say...'Keith it gives your b.... a rest'.

Did you realise on Sunday there were women bashed, attacked with steel bars, (No they didn't merely have headscarfs pulled off) one man was stabbed (not just beaten), other men were bashed, car windows were broken and mobs of Lebanese Muslim men were rampaging down streets chanting slogans in Arabic.

Your article only inflames things. Here's how;

Irfan, I am liberal and I do not condone violence in any way, but your article has bought to the surface, in me, an anger about the uncondemned actions of those Lebanese Muslim men.

I felt, why are you not condemning them in equally if not stronger terms?

It has taken a great deal of effort to exert the self-control needed to stop myself from merely jumping in and ONLY criticising the bashing of Surf Life-savers and then the cowardly rampaging in areas where there was no congregration of people opposing their common and cowardly violence, on Sunday.

But you did exactly that, showed no self-control. Your article inflamed me. I wonder the effect it would have on my rednecked and labor mates, (No, none of them are Lawyers, teachers or government workers, and most wouldn't have been out of place at Cronulla on Sunday}.

But anyway any claim you might have to being a community leader really is now under question.

You are exhibiting exactly the tribal attitudes you seem to criticise in your article.

I agree Peter. Howard's dog-whistling began in '96 when he refused to speak out and officially condemn Pauline Hanson's racist rantings. He's playing the same game now and for the same reasons.

Well said Bozzie.

I was in Sydney over the weekend. On Saturday I chatted with a young vietnamese bloke at Balmoral who was working hard at a cafe to save money to buy his taxi license. On Sunday I had a taxi driver from Ghana who had been in the civil service for twenty years and had three to retirement. Sunday night I had coffee and a Greek shop in Newtown and a laugh with the owner who sold two taxis to buy it.

It seems to me that there are many ethnic people in Australia who face adversity and make the most of it-afterall we are a lucky country. However i don't believe these Lebanese gangs believe in this statement- and I certainly don't believe the Lebanese community is strong enough in condemning their actions.

There is no justification for what happened on Sunday. It was very sad. However I am sadder for the Vietnamese, Greeks, and Ghanans in our community who will undoubtedly suffer. People who blame Howard for this are kidding themselves-the bottom line is that there are people in this country who don't embrace its values and haven't ever done so.

Whether its abusing the ANZACS on 60 minutes or abusing young women for wearing bikinis-it's not on. The wider Lebanese community is too afraid to condemn them and the rest of Australia dare not for fear of being labelled racist.

Community leaders huh, well think about this. Australians are not exsactly the most religious devout sort "generally speaking" but immigrants are usually dovout to their gods.

A variety of Immigrants from day to day in different groups have continiously defiled our rules and justice system and continuously pushed residents and communities into fear.

Australians are starting to get tired of this behavior and are now generalising due to the years of migrant youths attacking public property and are striking back generaliseing on appearance, will they turn their attention to a more religious approach on some sort of crusade or a more ideological revoltuonary one.

Community leaders is not an answer, it is only a delay untill another outbreak occurs and someone has the courage to mobalise a strike force. Change is needed on a fedeal level and if not done correctly it may do more damage than good.

No, Irf, it is NOT up to community leaders to provide real and lasting solutions - only real everyday people (the plain Janes and Average Joe, or Ibrahim if you will) that can resolve these problems. The leaders always act in their best interests or what they think are their best interests.

I don't give a mole on a rat's arse what any leader says - or much less, what he/she tells me what to do.

I am very pessimistic about the future, but it is kind of exciting in a macabre way. History unfolding before our eyes, and in fast motion too (wow!). I have given this whole issue a lot of thought this last year, and I really don't think there is anything that anybody can do to change or "fix" things. The future may not be pretty.

Once again, thanks for that article on Copts at altmuslim.

John

Funny how the Polls on the riots don't have a tick-the-box for overpopulation or lousy State Government services like trains that don't run to schedule.

Time and again you hear Shire people saying that immigration is out of control. We have a State Government run by Italian descendants, shoehorned into office in safe seats, who are hell bent on populating this city with immigrants for their own power and profit.

For example, we don't need a desal plant or massive Botany Vegas developments for the benefit of a few favoured businessmen. We want social services and we want democratic equality.

The free ride PROCESS of developing infrastructure at public cost, at the expense of democratic values and at the expense of badly needed services, just so a million more Sydney homes can be built by rich Labor supporting developers is abhorrent. NO ONE except Morris Iemma and his goodfellas want these homes or the social unrest they will bring to us all.

There is a cost to this PROCESS. That cost is civil unrest and until the Carr/Iemma government is dealt a crushing blow by the NSW electorate John Howard's senile prediction that this is just a law and order issue will be just as lame as his hope for a win at the next election.

If you want to stop Sydney riots, don't build 1,000,000 new homes. Don't pour petrol on a grass fire

Viva Botany Vegas

Bright light Sydney gonna set my soul
Gonna set my soul on fire
Taxed a whole lot of community and it's ready to burn,
So get those stakes up higher

There's a thousand pretty women waitin' out there
And we're all livin', the electorate may care
And I'm just the devil with love to spare

Viva Botany Vegas, Viva Botany Vegas

How I wish that there were more
Than the twenty-four hours in the day
'Cause even if there were forty more
I couldn't make the State's problems go away

Oh, there's black jack and poker and the roulette wheel
A fortune won and lost on ev'ry deal
All you need's a strong heart and a nerve of steal

Viva Botany Vegas, Viva Botany Vegas

Viva Botany Vegas with you neon flashin'
And your one armbandits crashin'
All those hopes go down the drain

Viva Botany Vegas turnin' day into nighttime
Turnin' night into daytime
If you see it once
You'll never be the same again

I'm gonna keep on the desal
I'm gonna have me a new pal
If it costs you your very last dime
If you wind up broke
I'll always remember that I had a swingin' time

I'm gonna give it ev'rything I've got
Next election, please let the dice stay hot
Let me shout a suit with ev'ry shot

Viva Botany Vegas, Viva Botany Vegas,

Viva, Viva Botany Vegas

And remember kiddies, Keep left unless SPEEDING - Nod Nod Wink wink!

Why were the police in numbers to beat up the Aussie boofheads but not around when the Lebanese thugs were smashing everything they came across?
How much of this terrible business do we have to take before the powers that be understand that multiculture does not and never has worked?
When will they ever realise that allowing immigration of people who will never assimilate into the ethos of Australia is so wrong?
Thirty years of tragic immigration mismanagement is now bubbling to the surface. In time we will have to have the military patrolling the streets as happens in [other] Middle Eastern countries.
Irfan and other muslim spokespersons are a big part of the problem because they refuse to see or admit that their people are not adaptable to Western societies, their cultures are far too extreme and different. This is where the whole problem is.

I am a local government politician in a western Sydney suburb and I am married to an Arab. We have a population of around 25% Lebanese/Arabs speaking people. We are around a 30/40 min drive from the trouble spots of the recent race riots.


Yes there are some badly behaved Lebanese people and I understand Australian people, of all nationalities and backgrounds, fear a terrorist attack, that does not however justify violence against innocent people or particular ethnic groups. And yes there were some Lebanese young men behaving badly down at Cronulla beach recently and in Bankstown and wherever these boys live and frequent. And of course there will be Lebanese criminals in Bankstown, that's where lots of Lebanese live. Just like the majority of criminals in Anglo areas such as Gosford or Newcastle will be Anglo because lots of Anglo people live in those areas, this is not hard maths to work out.

It seems that if your part of a particular ethnic group there is an expectation of a higher standard of social behaviour. This has been termed as a two-tiered citizenship approach. The height of the bar is lowered for the social behaviour of Anglos in Australia yet seems to be considerably higher for those of an ethnic background particularly those from the Middle East. Anglo's can steal, rape and misdemeanour and be dealt with within the legal system as anyone will be but those of ethnic background (non-Anglo) seem to have to face the 'public media trial' for their crimes, adding an extra dimension of punishment and humiliation for the group as a whole

I don’t remember ever voting for any multicultural Diversity leaders, come to think of it, I can’t remember any body asking me if I wanted to live in a diverse state of Occupation. Let alone surrender what our Aboriginal and our ancestral heritage left us to be guardians of.
The only community leaders need to be consulted are the ones boarding the boat out of here along with the rest of the Human trash that attached it self like a parasite, sucking the life blood and life out of the host Kenny, you ungrateful little critter. Commentary like that will not earn you any friends or perhaps you can try your luck in some pokey little poo hole somewhere else. If it was not for the White Trash, you would be where? Start learning Australian History. Australia Prospered well before diversity destroyed us. And declined after Whitlam, Mere Coincidence hay.

I liked this letter by Christina Ho in the SMH today http://www.smh.com.au/letters/?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

"What's with all the talk of "our women" and "their women"? Women don't belong to anyone, just as the beach doesn't belong to anyone. It's this misplaced sense of ownership which seems to drive the disturbing displays of aggressive masculinity we've seen in Cronulla. Neither the beach nor women need to be "defended" by violent vigilantes. "

I support the right of all women to wear whatever they want to the beach, be it bikinis or headscarves - or even both at the same time ;-) if any item of clothing should be banned at the beach it is DT's / budgie smugglers but again I support the right of men to wear whatever they want to the beach too.... yes even DT's (ugh).

Ms Malaise,

A broad based, community protest regarding the continued failure of NSW police and muslim community leaders to address the continued hatred, intimidation and violence perpetrated by Lebanese gangs, was hijacked by a small proportion of neo-nazi thugs. Yet, according to your logic, ordinary Australians are expected to say a mea culpa, and apologise to these community leaders and the NSW government for the actions of the few.

'It seems that if your part of a particular ethnic group there is an expectation of a higher standard of social behaviour. This has been termed as a two-tiered citizenship approach.'

Yes I agree.

However, the community protest about the continued violence and hatred by the lebanese gangs is to be accepted? Perhaps, they should be counselled about how bad we are, and that we deserve to be attacked because of the actions fo the few?

Ms Malaise, if you seek to attack the use of double standards - please do not advocate using them. The protest happened because ordinary Australians are sick of intimidation and violence by ethnic minorities. Unless these communities address these tactics, and prevent the continued attacks on ordinary Australians, asking the average Australian to apologise for their own criminal element is a red rag to a bull.

Perhaps it is time to stop the political blame game, and seek to address the cause of the problems (although as the majority of the NSW parliament is made up of minorities, out of proportion to the community, I would not hold my breath).

Either politicians address the continued violence by ethnic gangs, by demanding community support to condemn it, or the average Australian will refuse to condemn the actions of our own criminal element.

I consider myself Australian even though I'm first generation Australian. I have served in the Australian army including overseas deployment. My parents are not Australian, nor after 30 years living in this country do they consider themselves anything other than the country they grew up in. We are religious yet haven't stepped in a church since my teenage sister was baptised.

I consider myself no different to anyone caught in the violence from either side respects to ethnicity. Yet I have been labelled by my skin colour by the media, both from australia and across the world, and feel ostracised because of them.

So when John Howard states he doesn't think Australia is rascist, he is lying. I believe he played the race card to win the last election. Why else would the Australian Government flex it's military muscle against a boatload of refugees offshore of christmas island before sep 11.

But this racism is equal on both sides of the violence. In different ways. And the violence has been building because of the inability of the courts to protect everyones rights.

While credit card fraud gets more jail time than paedophilia. While evidence in gang rape trials are suppressed because the teenage females were called names and recieve threatened because of their heritage, nothing will change.

I am Australian, I'm not lebanese australian, not greek australian, not chinese australian, not anglo-australian. I am however male and and until female australians are free from persecution of any sort, sexual and racial, the war we fight in iraq and afghanistan will continue to have a second front in sydney.

Which is scary because that's why people think they are escaping to australia.

By the way, I am white, as the media likes to preach to me. How's that for reducing the racial tension.

All:
Kenny's commentary has won my friendship! who would have predicted that?

I like the twist on the aborigines and the heritage they "left" us as well. Cunning take I must say.

Australia pospered under the influence of diversity; We have tried to stamp it out; race riots in Clunes 1873 (Chinese), Kalgoolie (Southern Europeans)1919, '34 and a few other sporadic attempts.

The cultural diversity was such a problem that both sides of politics were particularly opposed to immigration for decades. Parts of the trade union were staunch supproters of the White Australia policy.

It was post war immigration that kick started the economy in the fiftes. And as for prosperity declining check out the web site of the Departmment of Trade and Foriegn Affairs - I think there is a link on an article I published in OLO a few weeks ago (29th NOvember) - you probably wont like it. But according to this government we have prosperity coming out of our ears!

We are facing a failure of law and order, social policy and in political will. I concede these issues were bubbling away for years. A startling ( to be expected though) lack of leadership has led to this federally and at least in NSW.

This isnt a problem with Islam as much as it is a deficiency in Australia. Like the drovers dog we vomited this mess up, so we'd better eat it.

Kym Durance

Oh, the joy, the rapture, of seeing in others the faults we so rigorously overlook in ourselves. I remember, as a teenage girl in Sydney, being very nervous of walking past packs of boys (Anglo-Celt in those days, with the odd Italian, Greek or Maltese), because of their threatening and disparaging comments. I put it down to my being fat and plain. Then I got thin, and, well, less plain, and the comments, though different, were still threatening. It's just a fact of herd behaviour (a common feature among young people with too many hormones and not enough sense, and something they mostly grow out of. Just as common, though differently expressed, among girls, and worse, if anything). What's said to have been the casus belli in Cronulla is a pita reflection of white bread adolescent behaviour. Adolescent behaviour everywhere. Presumably it's different for the locals because the perpetrators are identifiably ethnically different.

But what it ain't is a problem exclusively confined to Islam. I was appalled a while back, overhearing several conversations among my son's (then) housemate and a number of the housemate's friends, about "Aussie sluts" and pretty much the whole gamut of abuse the Anglo Avenging Angels of Cronulla are quoting as justification for violence. And I assure you I wouldn't have wanted to be a nearby young female when the whole mob of them were in full self-sustaining cry at the beach. This particular group of youths were Jews, predominantly of Russian parentage, and largely Australian born and educated. (Oh, and before you accuse me of anti-Semitism, the background to the housemate's pre-eviction – sometimes it's good to own the house – friendship with my son is that my son's father is a Russian Jew). It's not religion. It's not even culture. It's insularity, herd-mindedness and insecurity. Good old boring, nasty tribalism.

And I doubt even the Skippie-est of us can pretend we're immune to that. Sadly. But we can, should, and must try.

Bozzi, don’t be to hard on the police,
They are the foot soldiers that have become victims in the Elite battle of the Dumbest, not that in our politics at the moment you will find any Intelligence.
If you talk to them, off the record, mate (Metaphor) and if Australians realized exactly what is going on, then you would see a full on Revolution, I kid you not. Same for any western Nation.
Pre the Great Depression and its cause are a starting point, and the events which took place in Ego Socialist realms then and Civilities and economic annihilation or decline. Go back again in UK 1870 same thing Germany, well we know what happened. It is a Mirror image of today. It is only the beginning, and the left are sailing the Ship Destroyer again. We never learn.

In my opinion Harry Quick Labor MP Franklin is a traitor to Australia ! (Interview on Sky News)

Ms Malaise

Have you ever in your life seen the 'notorious bra boys' gang role up to a TV reporter and scream at him/her "WE ARE GOING TO F*CK YOUR MOTHER" as all of us saw a car load of "Lebs" do on National TV yesterday ?

Have you ever known of Bra boys or even HELLS ANGELS shoot up a Police station with automatic weapons for revenge and to intimidate them ?

Have the Commanchero's or Outlaws bikie gangs ever over-run a local police station and threatened to rape their wives, kill them, etc etc ?

Have you ever head of a Lebanese girl being raped by a large gang of "Anglos' JUST' because she was Leb ? Can you point to any trial transcript ?

I have absolutely zero recollection of this kind of thing being done by ANYONE EXCEPT.. "Muslim males" of Bankstown/Punchbowl/Greenacre. I'm quite open to correction here, because I don't want to make an unbalanced post.

Looking at the cumulative picture, it is clear that there is a social cancer in the Lebanese community, which, if not rooted out and dealt with, will probably see a volatile future which will make the last weekend seem like 'childs play'.

It took a LOT to get America into WW2 and it takes A LOT to get Aussies 'going' but once it is started..... we will finish.

You and your Husband, look very closely at the people in the cars on TV and if you or anyone knows them, report them IMMEDIATELY to police and then ostracize them from the community, it will probably save their lives.

My greatest fear about inadequate social/migration/cultural policy is WHAT HAPPENED last weekend, a knee jerk spontaneous reaction of rage.

Dolphin.. almost readable, but unbalanced. Did you see the Lebs in the car shrieking racist anti-anglo hate this morning? why no mention in your post ?

This whole thing is crazy. Both sides are to blame, no matter who supposedly 'started it'. The ramifications of this is very worrying, particularly when a Perth family 'of middle eastern appearance' has been terrorised in their home within the last 24 hours or so. I am particularly concerned about the reports of racist t-shirts, chanting and neo-nazi group members being in attendance at that so-called rally. Indeed the reports of youths from 'middle eastern' backgrounds hassling women, bashing life savers, and retaliating voilently in the last two days is horrifying also. Anglo (male)youth sometimes hassle or rape women, bash life savers and retaliate violently also. There are stories of battles between "surfies and clubbies (surf life savers)" in beach suburb legend. (.. and thats on both sides of the country) What about the stories of "surfies V westies, in the days when "westies" were predominately ' anglo-aussies? My point is , its terrible no matter who does it or who starts it.

Bd, there is a social cancer in religion throughout the world. Wasn't it you that posted a link to the Cronulla surf club to organise support on the beach for last weekend. Its not culture= that is the problem but religious culture. The only way to stop this, is to ban religious expression and support for foreign cultural standards.

I doubt that many actually understand what is happening and what is to come, it has not started yet. The depth of feeling within religious communities together with the cultural hate between different religious and ethnic factions is growing.

We have been manipulated into this situation by the politically correct and the right wing has supported then so that they could bring about this situation. From there, it will be more laws and suppression. This will inflame the religious, particularly those that have ties to other places.

Sadly the only way forward is for the government to suppress freedom of speech, instead they should be suppressing freedom of religious pressure and persecution of the majority, that realise the evil of religions.

Think I've said this a couple of times on this site.
After the genocide used to displace the aborigines hsurely the British can't complain about the odd bit of resistance 200 years later.

By the way notice how people of Northern European origin are called "white", meaning they can be seen as belonging to any country they frequent. The rest are, in general attributed to the country of their racial origin, or at least perceived racial origin.

The word "Australian" continues to be a cultural synonym for white.

The word ethnic continues to be a cultural synonym for those who are not considered to be Australian.

I'm not the least bit surprised by these riots, they happen everyday in a smaller scale somewhere and at sometime in this nation.

And for heavens sake, what is white Australian and what are its inherent values anyway? I’ve asked this a million times with no definitive answer by those who purport to know and practice it and who want to protect it from the so called incursions of non-white peoples.

It is the lack of clarity around 'whiteness' as Australianess in this forum and in media coverage about these riots that go uncontested and unanswered.

Is anyone here willing to define Australian national identity, culture, values in ways that don’t solely depend on trotting out those same tired old arguments that tell us what and who it is not?

Or is this perpetual absence of nquintessentially what it means to be Australian? If yes, then simply admitting it would be a great start to fixing it.

I never thought the race riots would happen for another ten years or so. Thankfully they are here and the Lebanese are getting their own medicine back. To any white who feels ashamed to be Australian I say you need a reality check. I feel nothing but pride to watch the young people retaliate. Then again there aren't many whites left or not as many as I would like.

Testosterone.

Testosterone turns promising young men into thick oafs.

Testosterone is the reason why thick oafs don't understand that programs like Pizza and Double The Fist are actually comedies.

Testosterone is the reason why political, racial and religious extremists have an audience to appeal to.

Testosterone is possessed in equal measure by people of all races and creeds.

Cyril the cat had a bit of a testosterone problem until he went to be spayed. We get along just fine now.

Rainier is the only person I know who thinks the word "Australian" means "white". The reason Rainier has no clue as to the nature of Australian culture or values is that he appears to have a lofty disdain for both.

I don't know how he developed his cultural inferiority complex but some of us are even proud to be Australian. I've even met people of various hues and melanin content and don't have English as their first language who love this country, its culture and values.

Whilst no doubt Rainier has things to be ashamed of, being an Australian isn't one of them.

anomie, sneekepete
I couldn't agree more. I think anomie hit the nail squarely on the head. This rioting on both sides is caused by pure tribalism & hatred & fear of difference. To those of you who think that giving in to the hatred is the answer, you are horribly wrong. Hatred once unleashed is VERY difficult to control. After all if your hatred & fear justifies you beating up muslims or anglos today why not jews or asians or buddhists tomorrow? Everyone has someone else to add to the list of those that it's alright to hate. And the list will just keep growing. Because remember what sparked this riot, hatred of difference; nothing more. So once one group has been dealt with who will be next? Anyone who has studied history will have seen this same cycle time without number. Truely those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Sydney truly is a bizarre place. The bra boys have shaken hands with the comancheros.

& Alan Jones, Jim Saleem & a few selected others should be locked up.

If what happened was a result of years of racism (basically just insults), TNF and OLO are going to result, years from now, in, the, total destruction, of all society (possibly at the hands of only a small duo of criminals.)

I know who I would lock up and that is bleeding heart lefties, the sort who love a multicultural third world dumping ground, lets call it Australia. As for this rubbish about the natives being here first let me remind you that we all come from Africa. Luckily some of us are white. The whites as usual brought culture to Australia. I'm not real sure what other races such as Arabs have brought to Australia. Maybe it's such things as not having the discipline to shave every day, bad haircuts,cedar tree tattoos or Lebanese bread. Wagner, Mozart or even Beethoven have got nothing on those Lebanese. What culture indeed. Let's not forget the rock throwing.

Chris Shaw

Testosterone levels vary significantly between persons of similar and disimilar racial backgrounds.

Testosterone levels also fluctuate within a person in any given timeframe.

It (testosterone quantity) can be increased in the body through exposure to environmental stimulus and vice versa.

Surely you dont think we should neuter every male who displays aggressive behaviour? The feminist movement has been inadvertently trying to do that since its inception.

Maybe you have been spending too much time with poor old Cyril.

Well said Anomie.

Let's all just simmer down a bit and reflect on hormones and history. When I was growing up in Adelaide there were tribes of bodgies and widgies in stovepipe trousers, iridescent socks and leather jackets. They would brawl and roar around on motorbikes. We kids were warned incessantly to shun them.

There were nasty gang battles between "Anglo-Celtic" people who usually called themselves "Aussie" and the "dagos" who were usually from Southern European immigrant families. Adults around me would object angrily to the Federal Government's push to call the immigrants "New Australians"; they would mutter angrily about "dark,greasy Italians" who were scaring "their" (Aussie) women. And my mates would all echo their parents and as they reached their 'teens they'd gang up and get into fights with the "dagos".

Then in the '60s we got into the tribal warfare between surfies and rockers. There were bashings by big mobs and the same sort of mutual blame and endless reciting of individual incidents as justification.

When you go back to the violence against Chinese in 19th Century Australia, or against the Italian immigrants and others in the 1920s, you see the same situation. Go to the Balkans over the last twenty years or so and the picture is similar. Or try Africa.

I don't have any ready-made solutions, but the current situation in Sydney is only about "culture" and "religion" if people keep saying it is. Young people, especially males, easily form tribes. Maybe we have to concentrate on finding better directions for the tribes to take. Yes, Anomie, hormones and history....

There have been a number of posts suggesting that muslims/middle eastern people have contributed nothing to human understanding (not quite the words used). Not a topic I have studied at all but background reading on other stuff has suggested that middle eastern people have played a significant role in developing the ideas and tools which the west built on. Not sure how acurate it is but try http://www.contactpakistan.com/news/news129.htm for a start for a list of reported inventions by muslims. Mathematics is an area they have played a great role in. You could also try http://www.khwarzimic.org/contribution-muslim/facts.html for another list of significant muslim inventions.

Or just log into your favourite search engine and type something like "muslim invention".

Have a think about how much of the western worlds recent advances have been a combination of the base of technology and understanding combined with the brilliance of a small number of individuals. At different times the western world and the eastern world (not just muslims) have moved ahead while the other went backwards or stagnated. It's not inherant superiority, it is a combination of a whole lot of factors.

R0bert

I hear what Bosk and Anomie are saying with agreeance. If we just blanket the cause of the riots as 'hatred of difference' which is true to a large part, might we not understand what has pushed this hatred to breaking point, besides alcohol, sun, testosterone ( a few women were in their punching too). Please feel free to tell me how wrong I am if you have a better understanding than I of how some middle eastern women are treated by men in their culture but it appears with very little respect and a lot of contempt. This was told to me by some fantastic Arabic background women who work in education and said in some areas of western sydney, even female principals are spat on and told, "you should see what we do to our women at home". I deplore racism, and fear the consequences of this for the safety of anyone deemed 'other' from now on. However, if there exists an underlying problem of an element of some middle eastern cultures seeing females as less than human and this spreads effecting women of other cultures then other people will become defensive and prevent this occuring.
Long term education is needed to replace ignorance and fear with knowledge and understanding. It will be a slow and costly process if our leaders don't take their heads out of the sand and see that if this is not racism then what in the hell is?

Alchemy, that was very astute. I have turned into an old fart and Cyril has become a fashion accessory.

Point taken on the ups and downs of testosterone.

Still, I bet that if the youngsters had halfway decent relationships, they might be more kindly disposed to their fellow travellers.

As for the red-necks (who are not so young - and some of them are posting to this thread), well, they are just dud roots.

It shows.

Anomie... please never worry about speaking truth.. they were Jews.. its cool, they could have been Tasmanians..(perish the thought :) this is a place of robust interchange of views and thoughts, and matters of fact are important to be put into the mix.

Historical Lessons of the Lambing Flats massacre for "multi culturalism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambing_Flat_riots

Please read this article, and see the similarities to what is happening now. At that time, it was a battle of cultures. Had the 'whites' lost that battle, we would have almond eyes and speak chinese. Any whites here, would be a huddled minority. The government took specific action to remedy the seeds of hostility, and from this the White Australia Policy emerged. That policy, while discriminatory, and in todays world is untenable and outright wrong in my opinion, did give us the prevailing cultural flavor and cohesian which otherwise we would not have.

We would have had large numbers of ethnic groups of different cultures, which would compete in every way for resources and opportunities, at the expense of the 'competitor' group. Specially so as their populations grew.

THE LESSON is this, Social policy should be tied to human behavior, and social realities not "pie in the sky political correctness". Or idealistic U.N. charters.
Policy of the right kind, will prevent the events of Cronulla and those yet to unfold.

Specially for Ranier.

Yes, the whites disposessed the blacks. IT WAS BAD, but it is also history and no different from every country and race on earth, including MY OWN ancestors and my wifes, so GET OVER IT and start to enjoy a less bitter life.

Shepperton, which now has a large Muslim minority, DISCRIMINATES against non Muslim families who wish to use the swimming pool TWO NIGHTS A WEEK. (Men only night/Ladies only night)
This is illegal, and is just another example of cultural incompatability.

All young people of Anglo and Lebanese persuasions who have participated in this week's barbaric thugery are to be condemned. All who violated another person, a building, a car etc should have been charged and gaoled. There is no excuse for either group.

Predictably, I found the article soft pedal on the non-Anglos and generally unbalanced. I also found it interesting that the writer appropriately uses upper case for Premier and Member of Parliament, but each time the term Prime Minister was used, he used lower case for a proper noun. I doubt that was a Freudian slip! Says heaps.

Benjamin, I loved your notion of "Anglophobia". First time I have heard it. How appropriate.

Ms. Malaise (meaning Ms. Sick I guess). So glad that you are not an MP in my area. I would despair with attitudes such as yours.

I am pleased that the NSW Parliament is reconvening tomorrow to give police people more power. Also think it would be a good idea to bring in the army. Then the Lebanese thugs who bash women, and chase women and children might learn what real manhood is all about. Did you see the young Aussie mother interviewed on ACA? How apalling was her situation. And what about the cowardly Lebs who threw a brick into a unit - just missing a five months old baby.

This afternoon in Qld, 4bc radio and the local TV news reported on a Lebanese SMS that has hit the wires on the Gold Coast - calling on all Lebanese male youth to congregate on the Gold Coast this weekend as a form of relatiation for last Sunday's riot at Cronulla. Really intelligent eh?

BD, I thought you raised some really good points.

Kay

Irfan, the real issue is that its up to the Lebanese-Muslim community to figure out why Lebanese Muslims have such a hard time here, whilst hundreds of thousands of other migrants are thriving. Perhaps the problem is not Australia at all, so time for some navel gazing perhaps.

It sounds to me like Lebanese gangs have been tormenting Sydneysiders for years. Now you are amazed that people respond.. sheesh..

Stop blaming everyone else for your problems and see the reality
of the situation. People will show Lebanese Muslims some respect when Lebanese Muslims show some respect for others. As that has clearly been lacking with all the gang activity, you should not be amazed and try to hide under the racism banner.

We need to re-define "racism." It appears that many cannot manage to hold the concept in mind in reference to non-Anglos, using at best terms like "reverse racism," at worst "terrorism."

Is this why Howard says there is no underlying racism in Australian society?

Is this why the far left do not see Che Guvara in the Chronulla protestor's emotion, let alone in the growing nationalist sentiment (from trade policy identity issues) in the Western world since the 90's, instead classing such phenomena as "far right racism" or "redneck"?

Is this why the Greens sympathise with non-Anglo ultra-nationalist, far far far right-winged bigoted intollerant redneck Palestinian terrorists, indeed true homophobes like Keysar Trad (http://www.stopwarcoalition.org/ ; http://www.zipworld.com.au/~josken/multim~1.htm)?

Is this why we hear a demand that consideration be given to the "underlying cause," i.e. the justified frustration, of jihadi terrorism, the implication being that kafir Westerner's are responsible for it, but reduce the Chronulla aggression to "racism," thereby denying environmental factors by insulating such aggression in a psychological disposition?

Is this why the so-called "educated" hate the less articulate for not adopting the same precision in their expression of concepts, and on those grounds ignoring all expression of genuine and justified frustration?

Is it simply (and this would indicate an intense lack of critical thought) that since the only discourse we have come across in our education system, pop songs, and general media regarding the word "racism" has been associated with Anglos, then the discourse gets taken for the real?

Whenever you’re unsure of when it is racial intolerance manifesting, look to institutional practices: arranged marriages, packs of youth of same ethnicity, a concern only for one ethnic group’s welfare, ethnocentric hysterical victimhood, the correlation between a conception of female sexuality and racial purity, panopticism, police reports of racially motivated attacks, etc., etc.

It is infuriating to hear today various Muslim spokespersons and youth workers say it is their youth who are acting in self-defense, and who the police are attacking more fiercely!

Such irony is the CAUSE of Sunday's protests.

Only time for a quick look at responses and yes to Boaz I have known plenty of bad Aussies my dear. Where I grew up in a typical Aussie working class area of northern Brisbane poeple crowded in the main street chucked rocks and bottles at Police cars that drove by on Friday night meets in the main street, gangs regularly beat each other with chains and spiked sticks and some even burned police bikes and cars ! Sorry maybe you grew up in a nicer part of town and missed all the action. Some of my class mates are probably still in jail for gang rape and that was twenty years ago but yes it was that bad back then with the Aussies too. Take off the rose coulored glasses young man.

I watched the news tonight and was sickened by the way the media portrayed the peace meeting between the Bra Boys & Commancheros. The leader of the commancheros made a particularly thinly disguised reference to having seen 'more armed lebos than when I was in Beirut. and they are all gunnin for these guys'. This is basically threatening the life of the Bra Boys leaders, perhaps this would explain their actions?

Just an aside. As a mortarman (and infantryman) I was amused by the reaction of muslims in Lakemba to minor stimulus (rumour). They congregated at the bottom of a hill, in and around a large petrol station, in order to protect their mosque.

Great situational awareness boys. IF I were involved (and trust me plenty of ex-army people are, or will be), I would open 10-20 44gal drums of deisel and petrol at the top of the hill. Gravity would then provide an effective means of delivery, at which point a match would be applied to the residue of the fuel at the top of the hill. The fuel in the hollow (at the bottom = at the mosque & petrol station) would ignite, and the petrol tanks at the fuel station would probably explode.

VERY EFFECTIVE, PROBLEM SOLVED (at least 1/2 of Lakemba would vanish).

Now my little gangstas, please do not underestimate that proportion of Australians that you have not yet run into. They do exist, and they make you look like boy scouts.

PS The information provided in this post is not intended to be used by any person, and I accept no liability (civil or criminal) arising from any unauthorised use of it. The information is provided simply to demonstrate the danger posed to our society by the current problem, and the hypothetical situation described is not advocated by the author.

Kay, once again well said. The balance was just not there.

Quite frankly much of the article looks like a carefully worded attempt to shift the focus away from the reported lebanese gangs onto the other groups of thugs. What is not stated can often change the readers perception.

The phrasing of comment about the smashing of car windows elsewhere in sydney reads as though it was the big crowd doing that - contrary to any report I've seen on the issue which have all suggested that it was the carloads of young guys of "middle eastern appearance" doing that particular act. Does not quite say it but!!

The incident where the lifeguards were bashed is identified as what sparked the riot, probably true but from what I have read the behaviour of these gangs around sydney over recent years was the fuel and a failure to mention that is again in my view misleading.

Irfan criticises other muslim spokespersons for their failure to address some of the issues which are hurting muslim communities and yet appears to be determined to repeat the mistakes himself.

His response to this issue during the lead up to the riot and in this article has saddened me greatly. I guessing that Irfan is hoping to reduce tension by seeking to mask the ethnic issues which do seem to be a relevant factor in this gang violence. That approach seems to just make the underlying suspicion and resentment worse. Far better to get it out on the table and work towards defusing the problem than to try and sweep part of the problem under the carpet.

R0bert

Irfan Yusuf is in denial like most of the Muslim population.Cronulla was the culmination of years of Govt police and judicial impotence.Cronulla happened because the Skips had finally had enough.

What started out as a peaceful demonstration was hijacked by white supremisists groups and alcoholic stupidity.

No mention has been made of the continued random destruction of private property or knife attacks by Muslim youth on innocent people going about their daily lives.

A talk fest of political correctness and feel good intentions will not solve the problems.

Shame on you Irfan.You offer us no real solutions since you won't face the reality and thus your leaders will not confront the problem.
Is the truth too horrible to confront or bear?

Your failure to confront the problem just creates more resentment and Muslim youth will only be spurred on to more violence by your equivocations.

I think the solution of racially motivated violence lies in confrontative style of education. One that allows people to express their exact concerns related to race, not one which tries to dress it up in the guise of culture, country of ancestral origin, ethnic labelling, etc.

Get it all out.

Now that you mention it, Boaz...

>>Have you ever known of Bra boys or even HELLS ANGELS shoot up a Police station with automatic weapons for revenge and to intimidate them ?<<

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/23/1040511005516.html

Why you persist with the relentless stereotyping, when it is crystal clear that we are dealing with mindless thugs, only you can tell. All I can observe is that it fits very badly with your professed religion of tolerance and pacifism.

This particular bit of bother will blow over. It will be a matter of days, if it is allowed to settle in its own time - the attention span of the average thug is relatively short. It will take longer if there are some external forces, such as the self-styled neo-nazi groups, continuing to foment violence at the grass roots level - i.e. directly stirring up the natives.

It will take longer still with the support of people like yourself, continuing to harp on in the background that this is a clash of biblical proportions, that will only end with the extermination of one group or the other. I only hope that someone isn't killed in the meantime, because it is quite possible that even you have a conscience.

Talk about Australia showing its underbelly. What is with you guys?

Too much testosterone, I agree. And insecurity. That too.

Too little understanding of history and, yes, we do seem set to repeat its mistakes as a result.

And as well, too little real understanding of others' lives and cultures.

And I suspect, too many hours spent in front of violent video screens. Life for some is a game of goodies and baddies with no comprehension that there is equal measure of good and bad in all of us.

It's time the ugly face of Australian racism was exposed for what it really is - a destructive cancer eating away at all that is good in our society.

Like it or not, Australia is not homogeneous and never has been. Multiculturalism, for all its challenges, is here to stay. We are surely big enough to live alongside difference without feeling threatened.

If people from different cultures weren't excluded and marginalised to the fringes, and instead felt truly welcomed and accepted for who they are, they would naturally assimilate and feel less of a need to congregate in gangs.

Wakeup Australia. The problem lies with you, not with the 'other'.

Bronwyn,

Get a reality check.

Pericles,

This will not blow over. Aaron has hit the nail on the head. There are far more frustrated and upset Anglo men than their are Lebs. People are sick of it, and like in all societies when the powers that be fail there is revolt from the population.

This wont die down, this has been building for a long time, the dam wall has cracked and is leaking, but it has not burst yet. When it does there WILL BE DEATH, there will be conflict and the guerilla style of the the Lebo attack will be decimated when people like Aaron (and a heap of ex army, Anglos with guns, farmers and people who have felt the force so far of the attacks)get involved.

This wont stop. Lebos will never be dominated, not while they are still breathing, and white Aussies will not lie down and be taunted and afraid in their own country. They are standing up now for All Australians against smart asses who are law unto themselves. It is all our fault Bronwyn?

Is is not about religion, the Australian spirit like it or not does not allow us to be intimidated continually, we are usually pretty relaxed mob. Just like individuals, when enough is enough we stand up for ourselves.

There seems to be allot of people confusing 'standing up for themselves' with a drunken mob beating up people because of their physical appearance. Cowardly, comes to mind. The second thing that came to mind was that given the tattooed swastikas that can be seen in the crowd, all those evoked grandfathers, the real defenders of this country, would probably have been fighting that mob.

The reason we are critical of the attitude and events on Sunday (and the moronic retaliation) is that we honestly believe that Australia is a civilised country, where the rule of law is respected. If there are problems, as people have suggested, with the rise of gang related crime in mostly Lebanese areas, then the disregard for the law should be punished. What should not happen is that an opposing group of Australians resort to the same uncivilised behaviour. Now im guessing that there will be allsorts of excuses on the basis of 'they started it' 'we were sticking up for ourselves', but this only exposes the primitive and uncivilised minds of the majority of posters. There seems to be amazing similarities between the state of mind of the far right, and the groups they often class as their enemies.

Cowards of Cronulla (my apologies to Kenny Rogers)

Everyone considered them the Cowards of Cronulla
They'd never stood one single time to prove the Leb Gangs wrong
This country called them Aussies, multiculturalism called them rednecks
But something always told me, they were reading Aussies wrong.

Years and years of preaching of Australian black arm history
Education experts telling them, our culture was all wrong
I still recall the the preaching now, three decades on and counting
White Australia is over multicultural has just begun

We promised to be tolerant even of the intolerant
Walked away from trouble when we can
It won't mean your weak, if you turn the other cheek
They hoped we're dumb enough to understand
You're not allowed to fight for your rights or land.

There's somewhere for everyone and Cronulla boys loved surfin
Catching waves and riding tubes and laying in the sand.
But one day while they were swimming, the Leb Gangs came a calling
They bashed up two lifesavers
And there were eight of them.

Years of intimidation, had bottled up inside them.
They were not holding nothing back, they let them have it all
When the surfies left Cronulla, the leb gangs were all long gone
Back to terrorising Bankstown, with knives and bricks and all

We'd promised to be tolerant, even in the face of intolerance,
We walked away from trouble when we could
Please don't think we're weak we didn't turn the other cheek
We now know and hope you understand
Sometimes you have to fight for this great land.

I cannot believe the tenor of many of the posts here.
Bronwyn, I agree with you completely. The usual suspect, if standing up for yourself involves a screeching mob attacking people on the basis that they look Lebanese, then please, please, please stop doing it.
Some young Lebanese men misbehave and this is read as permission to declare open season on all of them? And some of you are trying to justify this? And on the basis that some of them make derogatory remarks to women? And you use examples about gang rapists etc? How many convicted pedophiles are anglos? Vast majority, maybe even all of them? Using your logic, then, all Anglo men should be kept away from children. Bradley John Murdoch, Ivan Milat are white Aussies, I guess that means backpackers and tourists are entitled to bash up white Aussies they see because, you know, some of them have killed and tortured backpackers and tourists.
For heaven's sake, engage your brains!

SAVOIR 68: I will answer your Genocide question:
It did not happen, at least the way some postmodern authors wrote. It was a total postmodern fraud and a massive public fraud, Need I tell you the reason why?

The British, kept impeccable documentation, and ethics of rule of law, anyone –regardless of colour, black –white- green or orange were charged with murder, when proven it had taken place, and HANGED- A large number of White people were hanged for the Murder of Aboriginals.

The actual Genocide of Aboriginals and the atrocities of such were Aboriginals. Tribal wars. So you can easily find out real facts by your self, become a real historian.
Some sick bastard philosopher wrote: One, who controls the History, controls the future, Sound Familiar? Don’t feel guilty.
http://www.sydneyline.com/Killing.htm

This Fellow was a Red Hothead Leftoid too, but this Historian maintained his Academic Discipline, not like a great many others who kept up with the Academic and Intellectual fraud, even to this day. There seems to be more money in Looting for the Fraudsters than to contribute a truthful effort, Money for Looters is why so much Academic fraud is ramped, Like Politicians, the public pay many to lie, and it is your (Was) money some however get persecuted and sacked when they tell the truth: Get the Picture?

You will love this one:
http://www.culturecult.com/index.htm

The Fraudsters will not tell you these Academic exist: read in full and then you will realize why.

Enaj,

I am a trained soldier, and have sworn a solemn oath to protect this country. Up until this trouble I was quite determined to protect the individual rights of all, however if certain sections of the community are intent upon attacking ordinary Australians, innocent victims and property - in response to finally having been stood up to (that was the original reason for the protest in Cronulla, the fact it got hijacked is irrelevent), seeks to attack our society, I will advocate that this si cause for response.

The NSW Premier (and Member for Lakemba) has described the continuing attacks as a 'declaration of war'. That being so, the enemy does not have any residual human rights. That is what war is, not gangs of thugs - but premeditated murder, of the largest possible number of the enemy, carried out by professional killers, in whatever way they deem most effective, and which poses the least risk to themselves, and preferably when they are not expecting it.

Either the communities that condone this violence (by not condemning they do condone) take extreme measures to prevent further escalation, or they will inevitably be decimated (if not massacred). And to answer the question why would the army etc. only trarget the minorities - that is easy, the majority of the country is every governments raison de etre, they cannot attack the majority to protect a minority.

It no longer comes to a question of right or wrong, but rather, when will these communities and our governments realise the danger, and act to head off disaster. As the attacks on ordinary Australian communities continue time IS running out.

Bronwyn,

Now I understand, it's me that's the problem. I don't welcome the Muslim Lebanese with open arms. I never kiss and hug asians when they arrive but I get along fine with them.

You're a very perceptive individual Bronwyn and may I be as bold as to say a true patriot.

Bronwyn you make me feel warm and fuzzy all over. With librarians like you around I'm sure Australia will eventually become the third rate third world sewer you so desire. P.S. keep the hair tied back

Don't you love it how the PC brigade only refer to the single incident of Anglos going on a frenzied rampage fueled by alcohol and ignore two nights of Muslim vandalism,assualts when two more innocent bystanders get stabbed and hundreds get terrorised in their own homes and continue to ignore decades of urban terrorism through intimidation and assaults.

The BBC also only painted the picture of hundreds of racists Anglos attacking coloured people.They are an exact replica of our ABC.The PC thought control police is and international phenominen.Only evil Anglo Saxions can be racists and they must buckle to the PC view of the world.

There is nothing wrong with people of different races coming here,but they must have a good grasp of English,call themselves Australian and be tolerant,committed and respectful of the country that gives them sustenance.

We may be multi-racial and enjoy our own varied cultures,but we are above all else Australian.The devisive ways of the PC left have enabled the breakdown of the rule of law and the racial tensions that exist today.

Bromwyn, I think you are talking nonsense actually. Hundreds of thousands of migrants come here and thrive. Relative to other
countries, Australia is certainly not a racist country. Go and have a look around the world and wake up.

Fact is that things have to work both ways. The Lebanese-Muslim community seem to have a problem adapting to living in Australia,
unlike many other cultures who thrive here. Its time they stopped
blaming everything and everyone but themselves. Reality does not
go when we close our eyes and wish it would.

You seem as badly informed on this topic as you were on the causes of terrorism

Arjay
I really don't understand. Two groups of racists beat each othert to a pulp & it's the fault of the PC left. Two bands of neo-nazis stir up the crowd & it's all the fault of the PC Left. Rado shock jocks contribute to the anger & racism & it's all the fault of the PC Left. Do you detect a little bit of obsession here? When does an incident become someone else's fault? If a right winger shoots a neo-nazi is that the PC Left's fault as well?
Yabbi
you said the Lebanese-muslim community just can't integrate. Really? Every single Lebanese-muslim can't integrate hey? How many thousands are there in Australia & how many of those were actually involved in this rioting? Reality check time I'm afraid.
Freddie old boy
What you're advocating is just a little bit of ethnic clensing. If that's what it takes to keep to your kind of Australia then I for one want none of it.

Bosk... Yes I was generalising, I thought it was bleeding obvious lol, but clearly not obvious enough for some, I forgot you :)

Its a bit like saying men are taller then women. In general yup
they are, but there are always exceptions etc...

Is it clear to you now or are you still confused?

Sounds like something straight out of gender studies Bronwyn.

I remember working with people who share the same ideology as you.

Their beliefs rarely survived close and constant contact with muslim lebanese.

My old dad participated in two world wars. Between the wars, he was involved in a bit of village burning in North Africa and even had a brush with Lawrence of Arabia. Add a bit of enforcement in the poor areas of Northern Ireland.... and there, you have a real man's man. Perhaps the sort of bloke who would appeal to the martial instincts of some of our posters here.

Yet in the end, he told us kids that hatred was only another form of fear.

My advice.... don't be afraid!

Bronwyn, stand up and take a bow.

yabbi
you were not exaggerating you were telling an untruth. Let me explain. When we have a big group of people we call them the majority. When we have a smaller group of those same people we call them a minority. Now when the minority do something bad we say some of the majority are misbehaving. Not "all", not "most" but SOME!!
Some anglo racists were acting up at crunulla & some Lebanese [40% of Lebanese are christian NOT muslim] racists were acting up too. NOT the majority of either group. Got it now?
:D

Although many will disagree, largely out of ignorance, it ALL comes back to ISLAM.

As one who has studied Islam, and no, not the Karen Armstrong version, non-Muslims are sub-human. I doubt that these Lebanese youth read the Koran and quote it before they bash or intimidate whites, but they do grow up in homes where westerners are despised, our values are naught.

I have heard Islamic leaders say over and over again that the veil is worn for modesty reasons. By Default, ANY WOMAN WHO DOESN'T WEAR THE VEIL IS, to use a euphemism, impure.

Further, Muslims don't think critically. Salman Rushdie? Apostates, adulterers, are to be killed? Any thoughts Bob Brown on Islam's view on homosexuals?

Islam holds the distinction of being the ONLY religion which sees it's duty to eradicate all others. This is not interpretation, this is fact. Islamic scholars unanimously accept that Islamic tenets include JIHAD, which is to bring Islam to the whole world by ALL means.

One ONLY has to look at the reality that these problems occur all throughout the Islamic diasporas in the western world. What more does anybody need to say?

Benjamin,

Well said. Only when we know our common enemy can we live together in peace and without suspicion and distrust.

Loyalty in Islam (to Allah, his Prophet and the holy faith) is dearer to than anything else including life itself.

True and faithful Muslims are committed to living according to their Qur’an.

All Muslims are brethren, equal, without least discrimination on account of race or mother tongue. Therefore they all abide in the same teachings. No room for moderate or nominal mslims.

"The most noble among you is the one who is the most pious” (The Qur'an)

The believers are required emphatically to do whatever they can to defend and propagate Islam, as the best and the truest way of life for all humanity.

This, in Islam, is called jihad or the struggle for the defence of their faith. It can take many forms, depending on the circumstances.

Should the conditions demand the collective use of force so be it.

A person meeting his/her death for the cause of jihad is called a martyr. Their’s is a truly divine place of unparalleled honour and distinction in Paradise.

"Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the Presence of their Lord" (The Qur'an).

"To fall a martyr in the cause of God atones for everything except a debt." (Muhammad’s tradition)

Martyrdom is not restricted only to death. Any Believer who is persecuted, punished, beaten, insulted or tortured for the sake of Allah will be rewarded most lavishly in the Hereafter

Coach, i'll try avoiding the more violent suggestions included in the christian bible!
Yourself & Benjamin appear to take quotes from the Koran(sic) literally, & out of context. As when interpreting the bible, one must take into account-
When the bits were actually written, the social conditions at that time & the context. I'm sure mohammed had no intention of his followers going out of their way to kill themselves just to satisfy a pathway to heaven. The quotes Coach & benjamin put foward intend to cover situations of extreme personal & social challenge (all out war etc).
It is true some followers of Islam today do take the suggestions literally. These are the problem, a psychotic attachment, not Islam as a whole. Do not dismiss the fact that white christianity has its anti-social fundamentalists. I place George Bush & other prominent westerners in this category.
I'm actually almost impressed with Sydneys response to the Riots. Hazem Elmasri probably did more to quench the heat at Lakemba than anyone else, Stevens did his bit too. Prominent community leaders have come out in droves..good stuff..
I don't listen to Alan Jones - I hope he's admitted to have taken the wrong approach.

Bosk"I Don't understand."There is a lot, Bosk you and your ilk refuse to understand.For a start the enraged Anglos were manipulated by the neo nazis.They went on a blind rampage choosing innocent victims just like the Middle Eastern ferals who have wrought such vile hate and chaos on our city that our State Govt is primarily responsible for.You and your PC brothers in arms have a lot to answer for.

The only way to solve the problem is to confront it.Just listen to the ABC on a daily basis and they constantly divert and switch the blame to some social maliase perpetrated by the Anglo Saxion race.

Unless the Middle Eastern community face the reality of crime in their community,it will only get worse.Over 50% of crime in our State is perpetrated by people of Middle Eastern origin and they make up less than 2% of our pop.

I"ve noticed Irfan Usuf take a more defensive stance recently and is no longer calling for Muslim reform.I think that the Muslim community is also terrorised by the extremists and the criminal element that they dare not compromise their position of the oppressed minority .We seem to have this chemistry of religious extremists and criminals in a symbiotic relationship.It is all about power,their common goal.

The chaos of their leadership,that has the ears of our academics and pollies,is a very dangerous mix.No one wants to take them to task for fear of being called racist or religionist.

I just can't believe how this urban terrorism perpetrated upon the "Skips"has gone on so long without serious reprisals from ordinary Aussies,and you dare to call us the general pop who has put up with this for years the racists and intolerant ones!

The era of the PC left and their manipulative lies is rapidly coming to an end,thanks to forums like this and talk back radio, where left wing journos no longer dictate the agenda, nor what really matters to ordinary people.

Thanks Swilkie,

You seem to be a reasonable person - I will try to reason with you.

Ounce upon a time when banks used to count bundles of paper money manually, the tellers were never shown a counterfeit note during their initial training; they were simply told to know and familiarise themselves with the real thing. They could always detect a fake note because it felt different than the real thing.

It is the same with spiritual and religious matters.

If God is true and the bible is true - then Allah and the Qur'an must be untrue. And visa versa.

I have read the Qur’an in Arabic and translations.

The two accounts are not compatible; like cheeses and chalk, or water and oil. There are similarities, nuances, but like the fake note it will always be detected by the trained and the watchful.

I have lived with muslims long enough to know that they are nice dissent hospitable people who are unfortunately trapped in a religious system that does not offer any hope.

Eternal life can only be granted by the Son of God. Not by good works, not by jihad.

To be a nice person is no guarantee of heaven. The only way in is through Jesus.

So can you understand my position? I love people dearly – including muslims – and I don’t want them to perish because no one took the time to tell them the truth.

El-salamu-aleikum.

Bosk, no untruth at all, as you claim. I am simply better informed :)
Read what Tanweer Ahmed wrote on this forum about this very question.
Or the following article in the Australian.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17559932%5E28737,00.html

Clearly its not about just a few naughty boys, its more complex then that and its been going on for a long time.

The point is that Bromwyn was claiming it is Australia's fault.
Rubbish. She claims its just fear. Thats simplistic. We are complex creatures and yup we are tribal by nature. Think about it, we will care more if the lady down the street is assaulted, then if we read in the paper that say 30 people died in floods in say Upper Mongolia. We care more about those close to us and less then those different from us, thats not fear its just basic human instinct.

Yes we will show streaks of tribalism, but in general we will also be fairly pleasant to others who are fairly pleasant too. Most migrants have no problem adapting to Australia, most thrive.

If the NSW police had ignored the PC brigade and clamped down on
Lebanese gangs years ago, we would most likely not have the problems that we have now.

Arjay
What can I reply. I replied poltely & was merely added to the list of people you HATE & so the list grows. I'm sorry but your & Fredericks ethnic clensing is not the answer. Hate & all that comes with it is always evil.
Coach & Benjamin
Concider this
"Blessed is he who grabs the babe from its mothers arms & dashes its head upon the stones." Koran? Nope Bible [Psalms].
Look at the Crusades where the pope told his fellow christians "It is less wicked by far to slaughter muslims than to kill your fellow christians" Caused by the Koran? Nope by their dedication to HATE & their love of Christ.
But perhaps you don't consider Catholics Christians. How about a bible believing protestant like Cotton Matther who told his followers "We must kill these godless savages [the american indians] so that their land may be inherited by God's people"
Then there are the Salem witch trials & the Inquisition. In fact Christian history seems particularly bloody. All these events were justified by quotes from the bible which has God commanding genocide & blessing infanticide. If all you say about the Koran is true then they are quite alike.
Now you will say "ah but those people didn't understand the bible, I do. But how to prove it? Both can quote scripture to support their views, both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit."
In fact in order to credibly claim that you understand an ancient text like the Koran or the bible it is necessary to be able to not only read it in its original tongue, but also understand its historical context, the personal history of its author, the art & literature of its culture & so on. Know all that do either of you? Quite frankly I don't think you know that about the Koran or Scripture. But just one question before I go.
What if you're wrong? What if you don't know the truth? Perhaps a little less dogmatism is called for? Just a thought. Neither of you need reply.

The problem is that all of the more recent arrivals, post multiculturalism, cannot feel at home here until we have a debate on our national identity.

They support multiculturalism only here, but not in their "homelands", because of an alienation with the flag.

They support a republic for this reason too. Andrew Yu, with his anti-One Nation Party party, said it is time we move on to embrace our diversity, because HE cannot identify with the place.

Ethnic "minorities" come across as pro-transformation, but really only the host is forced to transform, the minority remains an ultra-conservative centripetal tendency to be fixed.

We ALL need to be transformative, else strife is nigh.

Bosk.You presume too much.I don't hate, it destroys the individual.The thugs do enough of that.I never want to awoken again by a phone call with my son pleading for help,trying to escape from these thugs.

I want to see change whereby individuals take responsibility for their actions without lame excuses from socialist ideology.Previous to this,the PC brigade denied there was a real crime problem with Middle Eastern Crime.Now they are saying that back in the eighties there weren't enough jobs for them.Guess who ran the economy back then? Yes, the PC Labor Govt.Well the Chinese and Vietnamese who also suffered from war, are never short of work.Why aren't they burdened with these afflictions?

Coach,

The Quran confirms the Bible and the Torah and its contents, it also confirms Muslims are followers of the Mosaic law and jesus. Allah is the Arabic word for God and we prefer to use it because it is : a) neither male or female b) have no plural. It is the name for God in the Arabic Bible as well.

The Quran story board is different in the following areas:

- The Israelites were the chosen people to deliver the message of Unity and commandments to the world. There were Ishmaelites prophets as well.
- When they deviated, Jesus was sent to correct their path and teach them spirituality of the commandments.
- When they rejected Jesus, God asked him to preach to the non-Israelites.
- After Jesus persecution, the followers of Jesus adopted the Trinity.
- Mohamed (PBUH) was sent to correct and reconfirm the commandments.

That’s our version of the truth.

Benjamin,

Minor correction: The only sect I know of in Islam who teaches Kafir=Infidel is wahhabi.However, Kafir does not mean infidel and the word means a spectrum of things the usual is a ‘non-believer’ or ‘ungrateful’ (used when talking about people of the book).

The meaning definition of “Infidel” in the Quran is an aggressor, an invader, an occupier, etc.. (ie action related and not religion related).

Ms. Malaise. Excuse me. I believe strongly that you have missed or are ignoring many of the facts surrounding the Australians of Lebanese descent who are involved in organised criminal gangs. The information offered by former police detective Tim Priest should be essential reading for you if are in local government in Sydney's south west. Here is an article by him on the matter. PLEASE read it if you haven't already.

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/article_view.php?article_id=581

I know there has always been violence of various kinds in metropolitan and regional australia. there still is plenty. but this is DIFFERENT. LISTEN please. The type and level of this violence and other criminal activities has NEVER been experienced in Australia before. I don't agree with everything the person posting as Boaz says, but you totally ignored his comments comparing say bikie violence that has been seen in the past and what we are seeing now. Even though bikie gangs have every weapon under the sun stashed away, in huge amounts, they never fired automatic weapons into a police station, or took one hostage!

All you said was that you had violence in your suburb in Brisbane too. Tell me, were those pissed yobbos in the street on a Friday night smuggling vast quantities of heroin into the country the rest of the time? Did they form convoys of vehicles, and travel to the other side of Brisbane deliberately to harrass and threaten other people with weapons EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND year after year after year? Did those drunken louts have a highly organised network involved in fraud, large scale car theft, large scale extortion, large scale factory break-ins, heroin importation and high-calibre arms smuggling (and using those weapons against police)? When they send out all those text messages it's using stolen sim cards.

You are ignoring it because no one in local goverment would possibly want to admit a problem like this in their area. It's NOT Muslims. It's NOT Arabs. It's NOT Lebanese. It's specifically, SPECIFICALLY the organised criminal gangs of men of Lebanese descent. It IS that simple. Just not simple to fix.

Fellow_Human,

I know now that you really mean well –I really pity you my Fellow Human – what you say is complete rubbish.

God doesn’t need confirmation of His Word. He Is GOD.

Sorry it will be a complete waste of time if you continue to come back with stupid answers like that. God created you with a brain – I am giving you permission to use it to THINK – not just to recite stories and anecdotes.

WAKE UP. What if you died tomorrow? What will be your excuse? Your religion will not mean anything up there? Sorry wrong passport. You blew it.

You are saying that God sent mohammed to “CORRECT and RECONFIRM …”

Does it mean in your “version of the truth” that God made a mistake? Common!

Really my Fellow Human unless you start using your mind and stop following lies just because someone fed them to you all this time – you are doomed.

You are without excuse. It is between you and God – The God that you have been looking for – the One and Only God. The God that loves you.

I will not make any observation on the comments of brownshirts that regularly gather on these forums. Beyond saying that I think the Cronulla beach crowds are far less fearsome than some people here, who don't need pints of beer and bags of grass to sprout forth racial hatred.

Irf....

yesterday, my neighbour related how (as an Anglo white guy) he has BECOME very racist over the past few yrs, due to experiences in Sydney, and his daughter, where the number of gang and criminal acts toward people in the couple of hotels she owns, were NOTICABLY and VASTLY perpetrated by those of 'Middle Eastern Appearance'.

At the gym, a fellow member related how at Cronulla beach in 97 mobs of "Middle Eastern Males" would corden off part of the beach for the exclusive use of "their" women.

Now.. you can continue taking cheap shots at us, calling us 'brown shirts' and any name you like.. "blessings on you".... its ok. But the sooner you recognize the obvious that there is a SERIOUS problem within the Lebanese community, backed up evidence, and retreat from your own racist insults toward us, and apologise for ascribing 'race hate' to us, the sooner you will actually have some credibility.

If the Lebanese/Middle Eastern crime situation was on a par with all other segments of the community, if gangs of Lebanese youths did not frequent malls and beaches in large numbers, shoot up police stations, invovle themselves in plots to assassinate the prime minister and his family, and to murder innocent children, then they would not be in the news so much.

Please stop your racist insults, your obvious religious bias, and your lack of Australian-ness by suggesting we are not seeing things as they are, but are just 'hating' people because of their race.

I'm sorry, that was ok in the 80s but this is 2005. So, it seems to me you are guilty of the sin you accuse us of..'race hate'? otherwise, why would you call us 'brownshirts'.

RACISM is a characteristic of Lebanese Muslim youths ! On what grounds ? Simple. An Islamic counsellor from Lakemba on national TV TOLD US !

1/ They think they are SUPERIOR to non Muslim non Lebanese.
2/ They HATE the west.

You better contact him and accuse him of 'Muslim bashing'

The hate is......where ?

Irfan, my only consolation to the relentless maligning by the 'Usual Culprits' on these pages is that they are a shrill, insecure minority, who can only feel powerful by attempting to impose their belief system on others.

I fully understand when you become irritated by these sorry souls. It is an extreme double standard when (and we all make mistakes) a 'non-anglo' is wrong or a bit reactionary (given the provocation entirely legitimate) - the forum errupts in full scale condemnation. Yet when the U.C's relentlessly pursue, insult, malign, coerce and attempt to intimidate, barely a ripple is raised.

Australia has had a mixed culture since colonial times - and of course our world is a mixture of cultures, people and beliefs. There is no escaping from it.

However, for some, attempting to overcome differences and reach out to each other is too much like hard work. Hatred comes easily to these people.

I can only act on a personal level - I am making more effort than ever before to greet, smile, help and tolerate others. Even if they cut me off in traffic! A smile can lift your entire day. It may sound a little pollyanna-ish, but I am so fed up with the bigoted, narrow things I hear said and printed on this forum that the only way I can dispell the miasma is to be friendly.

"The ideas that have lighted my way have been kindness, beauty and truth."
Author:Albert Einstein

I hope every contributor to this forum has a wonderful and relaxing weekend.

Dianne

Well Irfan, racism can be a two way street. When mobs of Lebanese
youths finally stop calling Australian women sluts, stop assaulting
people, stop their Leb rules saga etc and show some respect for others, perhaps other people will show some respect back.

Perhaps you should explain what it is about Muslim Lebanese culture
to cause some of them to behave that way and address the problem
at its source and stop blaming Australia. After all, many many
migrant groups don't have that problem in Australia, so its clearly
not Australia that is the issue here.

I suggest everybody takes a cold shower and then reads Tanveer Ahmed's article (OLO 15/12/05). It gives a very good start to getting to the roots of the problems relating to the Lebanese community and the riots -- without the adversarial attitude that too many posters are promoting.

Scout,

Truly, your idiocy is sublime.

Thank you, you have made my weekend.

To those who attempted to answer my questions from my recent post thanks. To those who simply went off on a tangent and and then rewrote the questions to suite their own boring answers, here it is again.

Please define Australian national identity, culture, values in ways that don’t solely depend on trotting out those same tired old arguments that tell us what and who it is not?

In other words - what are its core component?

Or is your inability to answer this question (but caste aspirtions at so called non-Australians) aka "a perpetual absence of true meaning" quintessentially what it means to be Australian?

Is your cup half full or half empty?

Why is it that when a building is dilapidated – it is demolished?

Why is it when an animal is badly injured – it is destroyed?

When a dog bites someone – gone…

When a citizen breaks the law – he/she is dealt with and locked up.

When a physician discovers a cancer – he/she eradicates it.

When a certain group assaults our way of life – we talk about it, we legislate, and do next to nothing.

What am I missing here? Am I the only one being paranoia? How much more evidence do we need before balance is restored?

Just remember the humble Cane Toad was introduced for a worthwile reason at the time.

Coach
To answer your own question, try to define “our way of life” in indisputable terms. I‘ve seen many attempts at this, but all have failed. Vague phrases like “a fair go” are sweet until you come to apply them in specific, real-life situations. Then the nasty arguments begin. If you want behaviour policed, you must first develop hard-headed, precisely worded laws. Flinging unexplained half-notions about cancer and cane toads does nothing but confuse the issues.

Rainier
I‘m with you. In fact it might be a great idea for OLO to take up the call by some posters for a debate about “Australian identity”, “our way of life” and what the term “un-Australian” means. You can toss “racism” into the pile while you’re at it. People are glibly using these terms in public to an audience of nodding heads, but I suggest they’re all conning themselves.

Dear Ranier

What ... is Australian Culture/Identity ?

Pre-amble:
This can only be addressed in terms of the historic changes which occurred with White settlement and if it makes you happier to call it ‘invasion’ I am quite ok with that. The only thing your people can legitimately regret, is that you failed to unite and slaughter us all everytime more came. But then, if it was not the British, it would have been the Dutch or Japanese etc.

But, you learned the hard way that superior numbers and technology won the day for the ‘white devils’. Now, we all have to live with it, and seek as far as possible genuine reconciliation in the light of unchangeable historical fact.

ETHNICITY and HISTORY

(see ABS) but racially, we are predominantly British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh with their descendants. No other ethnic grouping even comes close.

LANGUAGE and CUSTOM

The Language and customs are largely those of the abovementioned groups.

ART.

The pioneering spirit and life, as captured by our Artists. The stories of Lawson and Patterson, the poetry of Dorothy McKella etc.

AUSTRALIAN by CONSTITUTION and connection in heritage by that Constitution to the UK.
Whereas the people of New South Wales, Vic ...etc , humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom.

INDIGENOUS and MINORITIES.
In recognition of the first Australians, we humbly seek to reconcile, and forge a nation of people who can move on from the past, and seek a united future.
In appreciation of those from other races who came here for a new life , not to change our culture but to share in it, we welcome you, and seek to draw you into a future with us, which can be fulfilling and rewarding, in freedom and safety.

EG. The Receptionist of my gym is Armenian, The manager is married to a Turk.
Turks committed genocide against the Armenians, here, they live in peace. If a “Turk” came here to be ‘Turk’ they would hate Armenians and vice versa. Think about it.

Just for Rainer.The core components of our national identity.

Firstly; We have to have a good grasp of the English language.

Secondly;Have a knowledge of our sense of humour.Be able to cop a friendly ribbing.Above all,have an open mind and be honest about our foibles.

Thirdly;Have a knowledge of our history,and laws that affords such prosperity to new immigrants.

Fourthly;Have manners and show respect for all people of different backgrounds.

Fifthly;Be committed to Australia by working hard.

Sixth;Treat religion like sex.Done in private between consenting adults.

Could you add to it Rainer?

Scout-Dianna, by the sounds of things, luckily for you and for me,we both live far enough away from the action of what this debate is all about, to not be directly affected by it.

So it might feel great to take a Polyannaish worldview and feel good about ourselves in the process. Personally I try to take a more
empathetic view, wondering how I would feel if I was spat at,
abused, assaulted, threatened or robbed by Lebanese street gangs,
year after year. Its easy to be tolerant, if these things did not
happen directly to me, but what about the victims and their feelings?

Clearly its time for the greater Lebanese community to take some action, to help to bring these gangs under control.

Think about it this way. If you had been the one who was left bruised, battered and abused by these gangs, would your worldview still be as Polyannaish as it is now?

Scout, Albert Einstein also said....

'Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen'

and.....

'The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education'

I think if you worked and played nearby mid east mossies then you'd also be part of the 'shrill and insecure minority'.

Crabby
I've read Tanveer's article and thanked him for it, he's partly right.

Yes Albert Einstein:
Thank you for the insight into your mind Scout;
You do realize he has a compilation of 20 so odd years of CIA files? Not because he was Pantheistic Ideologist ay. Have you read Einstein’s papers on Spinoza? And his wife was a very smart woman. You already know that scout.
But Understanding the point you make is inspirational for those on another tangent, I think Rainer would substantiate that by: “Dream Time”. Please do not forget to wake up. Utopia is great in philosophy, especially when someone else is compelled by
Force to surrender their Individualism and property rights, so the perpetrators are exonerated for their pillaging: Do you love the sensation that others pay for you to exist in a surreal world; is that what you mean?

I have worked, lived amongst and socialised with Muslims since the early '90's.

Unlike many posters here, I am intelligent enough to know that good and bad exists within us all.

No one race/religion or gender is better than another.

Many here have complained about a 'failure to integrate'. How anyone can feel that they are a part of a society which relentlessly, mindlessly and continually denigrates them for their beliefs, the clothes they wear or the colour of their skin.

If I feel hostility, then I avoid that situation. How, then, do you posters who clearly hate Muslims, expect anyone to feel a welcome part of our society?

You have not made a single effort to consider the POV's of others - all you do is complain rather than looking towards extending the arm of friendship.

In effort to undermine reasonable posts you resort to personal insult. I have observed more enlightened behaviour at pre-school.

There is no justification for constantly deriding those with whom you disagree. It is entirely counterproductive and only further worsens a bad situation.

I can only wish that you have some good fortune enough in your empty lives that you may feel generous enough to assist those less fortunate than you.

Have a happy Sunday.

The obvious answer to your question Scout, is you obviously have a emotional impact on these people of unfortunate circumstance, then with these talents; your professional services would be more appreciated at the Genesis of the problem, by fixing the corruption that exists in other countries , by creating circumstances where Good fortune can prosper, then there would be no need for any animosity to anyone: we can visit them and they can visit us, so we all can be happy little vegemite so the lovely people you talk about can enjoy and bath in their Philosophy without denigrating someone else’s existence, You can not rearrange nations foundations to suit ones own purpose , The word is OCCUPATION; not by the antithesis advocates of American Imperialism ; or we become the mirror of what some immigrants ran away from, note some: with out the welfare of course. You have to realize eventually good will has a depletion date- that date is rapidly approaching. The automatic response of Socialist advocates is the primitivism of Looting, rape and pillage. Modernized by Linguistic and psych-epistemology. The end result is the same, Goodbye Society; hello anarchy, Propaganda does not remove the fact, just hides it temporarily. Living in the guilt rider’s existence just attracts more parasites; certainly is not correcting or helping anything or anyone, just compounding the problem. It would be more beneficial if you understood the Paradox of Oxymoron’s and not create more conundrums for more misery to prosper: (Oxymoron) In the misery industry scale; where do you place our society at this moment in time? Politics aside:

Scout:

You make corn-flakes more enjoyable.

"I have worked, lived amongst and socialised with Muslims since the early '90's."

Hence you win on logical grounds alone, obviously. Are you more in tune with the situation than people that may have done so since the 80's do you think?  What about the 60's.  Or maybe this argument is a non starter.  Consider Robert Fisk.

"Unlike many posters here, I am intelligent enough to know that good and bad exists within us all."

I must remember this,  it is such a novel point.  I always assumed that people were one dimensional caricatures.

"No one race/religion or gender is better than another."

This is axiomatic in your world view I take it?  Have you ever considered whether this is true across all situations,  or is such a statement pure heresy.

"Many here have complained about a 'failure to integrate'. How anyone can feel that they are a part of a society which relentlessly, mindlessly and continually denigrates them for their beliefs, the clothes they wear or the colour of their skin."

Or denigrates the behaviour of a subsection?  It is too lazy to play the racist card and then expect to be taken seriously these days.   People are wise to it.  Beyond which,  the effect of the point you are making is that some races (the more equal ones) are placed beyond reproach for some reason.  This is racist by definition.

"If I feel hostility, then I avoid that situation."

Depending on the circumstance this is also known as cowardice.  I am sensing some hostility in your post by the way.

"How, then, do you posters who clearly hate Muslims, expect anyone to feel a welcome part of our society?"

Ask the muslims that clearly hate westerners the same question, in the interests of balance.  After that ask Mugabe about how he feels about whites.  And so on.  Then return to your original nuanced position, accepting good and bad in all, and see if you are indeed according the same level of respect and understanding to those people that you are disparaging.

paragraph continued from above

You need to be aware of and love the good in the racists also.  You are intelligent enough,  by your own admission. Wouldn't want to commit the sin of being narrow minded and judgemental now would we.

"You have not made a single effort to consider the POV's of others - all you do is complain rather than looking towards extending the arm of friendship."

How tediously dolphin friendly of you:  no not the arm of friendship,  for the love of god,  anything but the arm of friendship.

"In effort to undermine reasonable posts you resort to personal insult. I have observed more enlightened behaviour at pre-school."

Yes,  but it is more fun. Also it is highly effective. Beyond which,  the pre school crack is an insult,  which makes you a hypocrite.

Here's a thought, imagine if people left snarky comments on bulletin boards instead of rioting,  raping,  looting...

"There is no justification for constantly deriding those with whom you disagree.  It is entirely counterproductive and only further worsens a bad situation."

There is every reason to deride the opinions of those with whom you disagree, it is wholly appropriate to do so. You are arguing for censorship here,  self imposed or otherwise.  Of course,  you are obviously deriding the opinions of the people that you disagree with throughout your entire post which again makes you quite the hypocrite,  doesn't it.

"I can only wish that you have some good fortune enough in your empty lives that you may feel generous enough to assist those less fortunate than you."

Are you on the lookout for donations? 

"Have a happy Sunday."

Ahh the passive aggressive finishing touch to be going on with.  Common tactic among a certain group of posters on this forum I notice. Well done.

Arjay

I found your last post interesting in response to Rainier's question. I particularly enjoyed the notion in point 6. I think that you had better duck for cover when Rainier responds to your ideas. Lol!

By the way, I have never found your posts offensive or filled with "hatred" (as a poster suggested - I forget who). Far from it. As I read your posts I get the impression that you say it (whatever it is) as it is, from your experience. I cannot see anything wrong with that - especially given your experience of teaching in a school where there were some 80 different cultures (trust my memory here is on track?).

Cheers and Merry Christmas
Kay

Sheesh Dianne, that was quite a post... I am happy to hear about
your perceived intelligence :)

Life sure can be great, tippytoeing through the fields of imagined
bliss. Sadly in the end, reality hits with a thud, it does not go away, when we close our eyes and wish it would....

Now if you can use some of that intelligence to show some empathy
for the victims of bashings, assaults, being spat at, or raped,
for no good reason other then being an Aussie, I will take some
notice.....

Some years ago I had the misfortune to work with a woman who was manipulative, greedy, controlling and vindictive. I and my colleagues were deeply effected by her behaviour. In the end, after submitting formal complaints to an uninterested management we either resigned or transferred.

She was and remains a Muslim - however she was and remains a workplace psychopath and was considered an embarrassment by her Muslim colleagues - who were dismayed by her behaviour and as unable to deal with her antics as were the rest of us.

Judging from the posters to this thread, what I should have done is gone to work wrapped in an Australian flag, gotten Pi**ed and then attacked anyone who resembled her – I understand that that is the Australian way.

I also have learnt from the posters here that to try to negotiate, discuss, compromise in an effort for people to work/live and play together is a waste of time.

I guess in the workplaces of people like Mr P P , Coach, Kaztuz, BD, Skidmarx, (and other Christian Soldiers – now THAT is an oxymoron), things must be pretty lively – what with all that vigilantism and cries of Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi going on. Makes me wonder how you get any work done at all?

My experience tends to show that conflict is counterproductive – however, if I am to believe the posters here, conflict must be good for something. Well, at least it is good for a Pi**Up.

Must go now – getting a text message on my mobile…….

Well Dianne, evolutionary psychology has shown that turning the other cheek is a dismal failure, tit for tat is a far better survival
strategy. So Jesus was wrong :)

If you think about it, because of all those so called drunken yobbos finally taking things into their own hands, suddenly the NSW Govt has finally got off its proverbial arse and is finally doing something about a problem that had been going on for years. Had they never done that, no doubt PC correctness would have stayed as before and nothing would have happenend, the abuse that had gone on for years would have continued for years. Which just proves that
evolutionary psychology is correct in its findings :)

Hello Yabby

Now I don’t recall ever asking the people ‘turn the other cheek’ – I think that’s something for the U.C’s to consider. The point I was trying to make was that to react with hostility every time someone crosses us is usually a waste of time. Most of the time we are better off just getting on with our lives.

That doesn’t mean not sticking up for yourself – I believe it is self evident from this forum that I do not back down when denigrated by the U.C’s. I don’t always waste my time on their pettiness, but I remain true to myself and when they cross the line have no hesitation in pointing out their irrational behaviour.

I am not surprised at the ire I drew when simply asking that people try a bit more to get along with each other.

The situation at Cronulla has drawn out the underlying racism that simmers in our Aussie society. There are those who have a vested interest in taking advantage of poor behaviour (eg Lebanese youth), hence the infiltration of white supremacist groups and the calls for blood from the anti-Muslim rabble.

Cronulla is way past “who started it” – we need to take action and create positive communication between the various groups and this action has commenced. It is also a law and order issue. There is no justification for vigilante action.

I was simply trying to spread some of the season’s underlying philosophy which I thought was about spreading a message of peace and goodwill. The U.C.’s are nothing more than hypocrites as they continue to malign all Muslims and never offering any conciliation towards Muslim posters such as Irfan - who understandably becomes irritated at the unnecessary provocation. I believe they deliberately try to stir up Muslims in order to justify their pathetic and divisive agendas.

Yabby – you know full well I agree with you that we need FROM religion.

Cheers m’dear

Excellent post, Dianne. Especially if you meant the last sentence to read, as I'm sure you did, "we need freedom FROM religion" - as opposed to needing freedom OF religion. Haven't checked back over earlier posts so could be wrong here, but couldn't resist commenting on this appealing possibility. A world without religion. The peace and good will that religious people preach to the rest of us might actually have a real chance in a world like that, don't you think.

Having a world free of religion would be bliss, then there would be no need for other ism's. I like the way they all preach peace and love, then attack everyone in sight.

Their arrogance and hippocracy knows no bounds. If they are not trying to kill others, they are trying to kill each other. They all believe in the same god, worship men of middle eastern appearance, that come from the Lebanon Palestinian region. Yet they accuse each other of following the wrong belief, racist and causing trouble.

Now how brain dead can you get with that form of reasoning. Doesn't that show you, that no matter how much non believers want to alleviate these religiously inspired negative situations, we have to realise that we are dealing with people that have little understanding of reality. So are not likely to accept reason, let alone communicate rationally.

The worrying thing is, from their past history, neither side will give up until everything is destroyed in the name of god. Now all the fringe radicals are jumping on the bandwagon, which is only muddying the waters further.

Love the idea of a world free of religion but not sure I want to live in one where authorities try and enforce it. That has some scary overtones.

As one poster suggested recently it should be done in private between consenting adults.

I'd certainly like to see an end to the various special treatments that religion gets (tax and rates exemptions etc) and an end to all government subsidised teaching of religion (church schools making a significant curriculum item of brainwashing kids). Maybe an end to all formal religious brainwashing of kids, let them analyse the evidence as adults instead of in environments where every staff member believes in the religion etc. If the evidence is as clear cut as some would have us believe that should not present any difficulties to the faithful.

That list could really grow.

R0bert

Bronwyn,
The freedom from religion theme is not new, if you have heard John Lennon's "Imaginae" this coming from a devout Catholic, seems odd, however Lennon was the greatest peace activist of the 20 th century. Surprisingly enough none called him a leftie,commo, but convienently he was silenced. My grandfather came to Australia in the early 1900's and was taunted, because he was of different nationality. All immigrants, Italians, Greeks, Soviet bloc, Middle Eastern immigrants have all had a baptism of fire, nothing new here. I am 50 years old, and gangs existed long before I did, again nothing new, young people up to no good in numbers. What needs to happen here is, the law be applied to the law breakers. A hospital employes many different races, who all work toward a common goal of health delivery, if it can be done in a hospital, why can't it be done in the community outside, with a bit of Christian charity. My grandfather was the most non-racist man I ever met, he was English.

All- absolutely loved your expose of Einstein's CIA files. Absolutely love your ability to see a conspiracy in anything more complex than a blade of grass. You are living proof of the downside of the internet - give a dolt with a grievance or a case of galloping paranoia a source of information (and if it's not authoritative, so much the better: it's then obviously Something They Don't Want Us To Know), light blue touch paper and stand back. But shouldn't you be a bit more careful? After Media Watch gave you that award? No, that was part of the Red PC Commie ABC conspiracy, wasn't it? How could I have forgotten? You have enough of a bully pulpit already - why not leave this forum to relatively sane posters, and you stick to taking talkback calls from late night drunks and people who wear alfoil on their heads to keep out the cosmic rays. You'll be ever so much happier. And so will we.

The author is trying it on, trying to con us all, we are no racist country.
For 20 years Australians have known about racism directed at us from Some in the Muslim comunity, mainly Lebanese .
The over reation never forget came after years of asults on skippys, us and the gutless bashing of lifeguards.
While generations of migrants from nearly all over the world have made us the great nation we are some denie the truth to brand us unwisely.
Some not all, but far too many followers of Islam use lies as a weapon endlessly.
Most know this a few amung us refuse to see the truth.