Dear Con,

I am sorry, but you opinion piece cannot be taken seriously by any person with a conscientious interest in the facts.

Your assertion that the majority of Muslims think that Osama bin Laden is a good man is not only inflammatory and unnecessary, it lacks any support in any polling.

The further assrtions you make about terrorism having the tacit support of the silent majority of Muslims in Australia is not only inflammatory, but I minagine quite offensive to Muslims.

Your opinions on this issue lack any value because you have no evidence to support them. Could you pleasue ensure that your opinions on this topic are supported by facts and cogent analysis.

Thank you

"The rickety and artificial nature of multiculturalism, and the realisation even among its unflappable advocates - which reveals clearly their own diffidence in the viability of multiculturalism - that it needs legislative measures to make it workable. That is, you would have to force people to accept it by the enactment of laws".

iLOVE it. Great article.

I agree with the first post, but the end of the day, the world is a pie, and a religion must encroach on another religion in order to grow the faith.

Therefore if the faith grows, it is at the expense of another.

That is why religion is the mark of an early civilization, i just hope we survive through it until relgion is no longer a component in the masses life. We can subscribe to more neutral, positive set of beliefs and we can work together as a planet on creation, rather than impeed it by secular beliefs.

I would be keen to know how many "many" are, when it comes to the dutch recruitng body gaurds to go down to the shops and buy their loaves of bread and copies of the Daily Clog.

I do not know how many tihnk Osama is a good man or not; but any one harboring the view the invasin of Afghanistan and Iraq is an example of american colonialism and folly I would count as a fellow traveller.

The evidence is overwhelming that these acts are ones of revenge, based on lies and innordinate fear - global terorrism be damned. There is no evidence to support the existence of a highly integrated network of terrorist; more over their is a random scattering of disaffected nutters who with the trappings of Isalm commit horrible crimes: few if any of the hundreds arrested under laws against terro have been charged with anything at all.

Con can point to as many flash points of cultural clashes as he likes - the same phenomenon exits in relatively homogeneous communities - it gains expression in crime, violence and all manner of dysfunctional relationships; if he wants over riding harmony and peace he will not find it in the human experience.

Mulsims are not alone in declaring indefatigably theirs to be the one true religion - I think it was one of the last pronuncements Pope JP2 said about Catholicism.

And Con can not have it both ways: Islamism with its rigd adherence to its culture and failure to adapt will wither away - at the same time present a clear and present daanger to Western Culture - a position he has adopted elsewhere - which will it be?

The shadows of Islamism at which so many are jumping are new borns when looked at across history; the regressive paranoia of the western leaders that has led to this wide spread panic will causae more harm than good, expose us to more danger than produce safety and foster a self fulfilling prophesy based on its internal fear and prejudice.

I worked in Canberra in the late seventies, where it seemed to me that ABA's (Australian born Australians) were a minority group. I explored the diversity of cultures,worked with people from various ethnic backgrounds and was welcomed at the many different ethnic clubs. It was a steep learning curve for a bloke from the bush but I simply treated everyone I met as an individual and found {shock, horror) that but for minor language problems,'they' were no different to me.'They' had mortgages,paid their bills and taxes and worked hard for 'their' families.

Con,

Good ‘mud throwing piece’. Fundamental flaws in your argument:

- The magic 99.9% assumption: being a Muslim and asking an average Muslims, we don’t believe there is even 10% who could believe in conspiracy theories (including stats from Islamic web portals). Yet, Con quotes 99.9% of Muslims believe in conspiracies.

- Mixing up support & denial: while I accept the sad fact in the Muslims camp that some Muslims and Imams are still in denial about terrorism and believe its all a conspiracy, this is vastly different from the conclusion of sympathy with terrorism. I was in the US early this year and the conspiracy theory is unfortunately believed by many non-Muslims as well.

- The ‘2 wrongs make it right’ approach: again you assume because some Muslims (& non-Muslims) are worried about the sovereignty of Iraq and civilian casualties then they have an agenda of some sort. This assumption is naïve at best.

- On the Theo Van Gogh story: again and again: the way religion is practiced in the Middle East or even Eastern Europe is part of the identity. If TVG made a movie insulting an identity (Serbian Orthodox, Nigerian Catholic or even a US Texan), he would be likely to face the same fate as any of these people are likely to carry a gun if not a machine gun.

- Mixing up theory and practice: multi-cultural-ism like any other good concept is just a concept. When managed and implemented well it can be successful like most immigration countries (US for example).

Bravo Con! Encore!

You are spot on or at least very close to this very complex problem. You nailed it man.

This is not an Australian problem but a global dilemma. Islam cannot and will not try to integrate full stop. Muslims may adapt, they may even look as if they are adjusting to their host country ways; but to those who can see and hear: not!

I have been trying to say this for some time but it mostly fell on the deaf n' blind; or worse those with a socio-political interest who need to maintain the status quo and use time to their advantage.

Australia is in the main polarised into three sectors

1. Secular - The majority: atheist, agnostic, non-believers, non-religious, or at best nominal-non-practicing labels; who want nothing to do with “religious stuff” don’t understand what the fuss is about, and don’t want to know. “Live and let live” is their preferred mantra.
2. The Religious - Most Denominational Churches, Buddhist, Hindi, all the cults, new age, satanic, etc…who strongly believe and practice their religion – would love more people to be “enlightened” and join them but wont impose their views at least not publicly…
3. The smallest but most visible and noisy group is the Islamic lobby with its not-so-hidden agenda of globalising the world.

I deliberately left out the Christians – because we are the minority (not numerically) and the most misunderstood bunch. As Disciples of Christ we are his true church and the only hope for humanity. (I can almost hear the uproar) – But folks this is the truth. No amount of debate will change that fact.

Like The Skeptic, I’m fairly big on proof. For starters, I would like to know on what statistics Mike Steketee and others base their “99.9%” claim. As far as I know, George Negus kicked that one off, but nothing can be found in his book to prove the claim.

It’s unlikely that we could find hard evidence. Muslims are hardly going to answer ‘yes’ to a pollster who asks if they support terrorism or not. We have to acknowledge that there is no evidence to back up a wild claim that is used by just about everybody on every subject to get other people to believe them. Expecting statistical ‘proof’ on this matter is unrealistic. We have to rely on anecdotes and that which is before our eyes and ears. Reports from UK media after the London bombing indicated a worrying number of British-born Muslims certainly do support terrorism, for instance.

Con G-K gives us the opportunity ask ourselves just how far credibility can be stretched. The 99.9% claim beggars belief and is an insult to our intelligence.

Only Muslims can set the record straight. US radio commentator, Dennis Prager posed the following questions to Muslims:

1. Why are you so quiet? (1 billion of you in the world)
2. Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian? (If Israeli occupation is the reason for terror)
3. Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?
4. Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

Instead of confronting the problems of Islam, he claims, they are “defending” it by telling him that he has no right to be talking about Islamic terrorists, and they call anyone who does so “anti-Muslim”. Sound familiar?

And, multiculturalism, not just in the context of Muslim Australians, is a joke. We have hyphenated-Australians, or just the country of origin of forebears used in many cases by people born here. Some of us are only plain “Australian” when it comes to criminal acts committed overseas, when sympathy is sought

I don't really think multiculturalism is something we can choose to label a failure and discard. It is certainly not "created by legislation". The reality is we are a country made up of many different cultures, a great deal of them immigrated at one point or another. The multiculturalist policies of government are an attempt to adopt the best ways to ensure these cultures can coexist. Saying that that approach is doomed to failure is extremely pessimistic.

As for whether Aussie Muslims need to "liberate themselves from the rigid parts of their religion", no they don't really, all they have to do is abide by the laws of this country that they live in. Other than that they have the absolute right to free exercise of their religion.

Leigh,

Will have a go at your 4 questions:

1. Why are you so quiet? (1 billion of you in the world)
Says who? Why Imam Faisal AbdelRauf (one of the few moderates author of ‘what is right with Islam’ with Karen Armstrong) was interviewed only once on US television but other nutbag imams are daily on the news? It is the media ‘ sick puppy' syndrome.
Simple, get your commentator to pick 5 moderate imams and give them enough airtime and see who much fanaticism will die. Oops sorry their is no $$ for the media in my suggestion, bad news sells.

2. Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian? (If Israeli occupation is the reason for terror)
A political/land conflict motivated by religion. The proof is simple because:
- Why Palestinians Muslims & Christians lived with the Jewish minority peacefully for the last few centuries?If religion was the issue, why did it only come out now?
- Why there is only Catholics in the IRA?

3. Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?
Again that’s mainly media focus, if it was about religion, why the majority of Terrorism victims are Muslims? (Before sep11, and currently in Iraq). 60 years ago more than 6 million Jews lost their lives on the hands of claimed Xtians.

4. This is the half empty/half full debate: Why not focus on the majority of moderate Muslim states that look after their minorities and encourage the others to do the same? As far as I know Saudi Arabia is the only government that does not accept practice of other faith but what are the chances of approving a mosque in the Vatican? Who cares anyway lets just be positive and improve the minorities conditions wherever they are.

Peace and good weekend,

Fellow_Human,

There is a time in any dispute when the loser admits defeat and honourably shakes hands and withdraws.

You were asked by Leigh 4 definite questions to which you did not give straight answers.
I asked you 5 questions the other day - you did the same.

Smoke screening won’t hide you anymore. The rabbit is out of the bag. Why don’t you go and look for 5 moderate imams and if you do find them come back and we will collectively pay for their appearance in the media.

Fellow Human,

Like me, you are an anonymous poster with opinions. The only people who can and should speak for the Islamic faith and Islamic organisations in Australia are clearly identifiable public figures, properly qualified, and with authorisation to speak on behalf of the religion. This is the case with any organisation. But I am always interested in your opinions.

You could, if you would please, answer me one general question though. Why do you think that Muslims in Australia refer to themselves as Muslim Australians rather than, say, Egyptian Australians which I believe you are? No other groups in Austalian refer to themselves by religion: they are Vietnamese Australians, Anglo Australians, Italian Australians etc. The author of the this article describes himself as an Australian of Greek background. I'm a bit of a mongrel with English, Scottish and German heritage. I would think that the very last thing that Australians are interested in, irrespective of racial or national origins, is another person's religion.

We are all Australians, but if the average person decides to be nosy about a person's background, they ask, 'Where do you come from?', not 'What's your religion?'.

A minor point, perhaps, but one that I believe encourages people to think Muslims are overoccupied with their religion to the detriment of all else.

Donnie,

An official policy of multiculturalism was forced on us by legislation and without reference to the population. Yes, we have always been a multiracial society, but that is different from from a government enforced multicultural society which emphises difference rather than similarity.

coach what do you mean by moderate imams? FH's definition or yours. I'm guessing your version of a moderate imam is a former imam who has see the light of christ shining through your witness (some sarcasim in that comment), repented of his muslim beliefs and become a born again christian (probably penticostal but I'm not sure of that yet).

Likewise just because FH did not give the particular response you wanted does not mean that he is being evasive. BD did not respond the way I wanted to questions I asked recently (and often won't even respond to Scout's questions). In the case of the questions I asked BD I'm assuming that he answered the questions the way he understands the issues. I think BD was not being evasive but rather responding out his own understanding of the issues which I take to be something like "God can't be bad so therefore everything he does is good".

Can I also point out that most of us probably have got the message that you think your message and god are pretty special. Shouting it loudly repeatedly may not actually help anybodies willingness to accept that message. Maybe a demonstration of "the fruits of the spirit" might be more in order. Sorry not a lot of christain examples I can point to here. In my view Sells comes closest and every now and then BD gives it a go (more practice might help). Maybe you could have a look at the tone of most of FH's posts and his tollerance and politeness in the face of persistant abuse and attack - you might have to put aside your distaste for the actual content of those posts.

R0bert

Hi Leigh,
I guess it is a matter of perspective, i'm of the (possibly delusional) belief that the government is representative of the population and therefore legislation does reference it. I think that is the idea anyway, whether or not it works like that in practice is another debate.

Con

Thank you for your article.

As a "baby-boomer", I grew up with: Italians, Greeks, Ukraines, Czechs (spelling?), Yugoslavs. They were mostly farming families. We all went to a public school together. We played marbles together. We played sport together. We had fun.

Each morning, the School Principal lined us up on dots around the square. He rang the bell and raised the flag. We sang the National Anthem - together. And then Mr Fisher would check: handkerchiefs, lunch, shoes. If kids did not have any of these he notified his wife, who provided same.

What a happy family we had. In their stilted language, they called themselves "Aussies". They were so proud. Religious preferences were not an issue (except between the Catholics and the Anglicans!).

Leigh's comment about hyphenated Australians is spot on!

Cheers
Kay

Why do we even bother with multicultualism? Its a waste of time and more of a political stunt to gain economic growth in trade as well as a few more votes for a party to gain senate seats than to actually help our social growth as a nation.

There needs to be balance and all i see at the moment is black and white. No grey, if it were up to me i would be reforming our immigration/education/industrial growth dramaticly with indiscriminate and fair rules. Allowing Australians 95% of the workforce in a buisness or company for and just 5% of immigrated labor for a small buisness 10% for a company.

Also more to the point, i absolutely agree on Mulims having to forfeit their culture for our "western ways" simply because Its ou country and if you dont like it leave... blunt as a cudgel on a soft babys head.
specificly what are western ways in a multiculture society anyway? Its not like we march down the streets with pitchforks and tearing into pork all day long.

"And the twin failure of multiculturalism and integration is written in the stars.". So the answer is....?

(There were meant to be three question marks there but the auto-screening system said "There is no need for than many question marks. Remove them to continue." Graham Young - it should be "that many question marks" not "than many question marks". Please fix this up for the pedantic among us.)

Con,
Your name is right.
White Australia has been trying get the black Aborigine to cast off anything incompatible with Western culture for 225 years. Politicians even had the white Australian Policy enshrined in legislation.
What we could do is legislate to take the Muslim babies off Muslims if they do not cast off their non-Muslim ways. Just an idea.

Leigh / FH,

George Habash - Former leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine [PFLP] and a christian.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/israel-terror.htm

Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade Terrorist arrested (and yes he was a christian);
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=19880

Muslims support terrorism (or alternately do not) - 99.9%?
People you could not get 99.9% of people to agree that ice cream is cold, or that the night is dark, or anything else. This is commonly reffered to as being statistically improbable.

Below are the links to some actual statistics derived from actual surveys;

Muslims against terrorism;
http://www.freemuslims.org/

Washington Post - support for terrorism & Osama Bin Laden Down
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401030.html

"Australian Muslims must be willing to cast off anything incompatible with Western culture". Of course. The problem is that successive Australian governments, influenced by academic cultural relativists, invited people to come here on the misleading promise that they could continue to live their existing culture while enjoying all the goodies of Australian life. To the recipients of this offer, all adjustment must be made by Australians, while all they need to do is arrive. The misunderstanding causes them to denigrate Australian culture as worthless or non-existent.

The United States is not multicultural. It is monocultural, but multi-ethnic. There is less overt social friction because new immigrants are expected to fit it and become "American". Australian-style multiculturalism is ultimately destructive because it encourages challenges to and deviation from the host culture.

It would be a more astute observation to note that Political implications of “Multiculturalism”, and weigh the fact that Ideological perceptions have used it as a weapon against a Civil code once possessed by Western Nations.
In a gloomy mind set and a deterioration of standards possessed by our once inspiring Intellectual class has become a more fitting scene that represents the antipathy of existence of late, meaning they have sold out virtues that commands excellence and substituted it with the mediocrity of existentialism. All they can offer you now is the virtue of your own suffering and guilt that transpires your efforts to their cause. Creates a creed of week minded and pathetic illogical conundrums they can not or will not answer, then give you the privilege to accept that virtue or be branded as a dissident, Racist, Infidel.
If people are dispossessed of their own intellectual skills to achieve, then what is left is Failure; a crafted failure of known untruths. The era of Dabortiary. An illustration of destruction is in Africa- And that is our fete of rewarding the liars and condemning the truth- submission to the psych epistemology of the Looter class and Moochers, Civil war comes next and so doe’s societies decline, all because of Psychotic egotistical Idiots. A legacy of the non existence of truth and the re-defined meaning of what metaphysics is not. How you marry up non existence and physical existence is not a conundrum any righteous thinking person needs to burst a blood vessel over, I think you can say it is “Reaping the whirlwind”. And so we are.

D2,
You must get out more among the Americans.
Before he died you have never seen a Sammy Davis Jr performance show have you.
At every show he tells the audience that he is a black American Jew . . . and then he smoked a cigarette
Now he would not do that if he did not celebrate the black culture, the American culture and the Jewish culture.
Is George Bush a black American Jew?
Could a black American Jew become the president of the US?
No but they can sing and dance.

Well, today I saw an interview with Former Terrorist (PLO) Walid Shoeblat

http://www.shoebat.com/

who gave an INSIDERS view of the psyche of the Arabs in that area.

Important things he said :

<<I began to read the Bible and history to find out why we are supposed to hate the Jews so much>>

<<In America, the Islamic education system is structured to prepare for a FUTURE JIHAD ! >>

This is EXACTLY what Mark Durie said about Islamic Education in Australia, during his testimony on behalf of the 2 Danny's after they were taken to court by the 'Islamic Council of Victoria', for virtually saying as much in their seminar.

Reading his expert witness testimony (largely rejected by the Judge) it is clear, that what Walid Shoeblat says above, is equally applicable to Melbourne Victoria and probably or more so in Sydney

SKY NEWS yesterday, I saw scenes from Bosnia, including huge new mosques built with Saudi Petro Dollars which came with a price tag..WAHABISM and now, formerly 'makeup and jeans' bosnian Muslim girls are now wearing Hijabs and guys are sporting 'beards'......

The Arab fighters who had streamed into Bosnia were so terrifying by the looks on their faces.. and the urgency with which they were egging on the Bosnian Muslims to decapitate captive Serbs, suggests the Serb action in Srebreniza was more understandable in regard to the bigger problem.
It is clear, that many young Arabs today in Saudi, Yemen, Syria, are living in the glories of the battles fought by Mohammed,
Hunain
Uhud
Tabuk
The Ditch
Badr
Yarmuk
etc...
and are willing to go ANYwhere in the world to defend 'their muslim brothers'. Presumably including Australia !

Many of those Arabs who went to Bosnia, changed their names to "Serb/Christian" sounding names and dispersed throughout Europe....

tick...tick....tick..............................BOOM

D2,

Academic cultural relativists have nothing to do with high levels of immigration or the adoption of multiculturalism. High and rising rates of immigration is bipartisan policy (which is why neither side raises the issue) to assist industry with cheap labour and keep our population at sustainable levels.

The policy of multiculturalism was adopted to reflect what was already happening in our society. Cultural relativists I can understand. What that has to do with academics is beyond me.

Excellent article.

Sadly, and it is a scary thought, most are unwilling to accept that many Muslims do support terrorism, in one way or another.

I wrote a letter, which was published in the Sunday Herald about two weeks ago on this very point. Remember the conference Howard had with the 13 moderates? Well it turned out they weren't so moderate. Not only did one write a speech saying that Zionists committed 9/11, but a journalist asked all 13 where they stood on Bin Laden.

Ten outright refused to answer, but of the 3 who did, one being Sheik Fehmi of the Preston mosque in Melbourne, said, and I quote, "I can't condemn Bin Laden as I don't personally know him".

Doesn't this say it all?

We simply have to realise, as it's way past checking numbers for statistics, it's real, that the majority of Muslims APOLOGISE for terrorism in public, so one could only imagine the comments at home!

Cold hard truth. They were dancing in the streets, beeping car horns not only all across the Muslim world, but in Merrylands & Granville too.

Sad as it seems, I predict that within 20-30 years, Europeans will be forced to vote in Nationalistic Political Party's, going against their own nature of tolerance and decency, to deal with current problems.

It all comes down to those who follow a SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY. We, sadly, are nothing but KAFFIR SCUM.

The Skeptic has got to be kidding.How much proof does he want?It was reported that France had riots in up to 300 different locations for two weeks.

I've spoken to Dutch people who have returned from Holland and to a person,they just can't believe what has happened to their country.To be fearful of walking down the streets of your own country just to fullfil the idealistic notions of left leaning academics wearing their rose coloured glasses,is just beyond belief.

We are the racists because we don't want to be bashed,robbed,raped and forced to endure the philosophy of religion that totally opposes nearly all our values and beliefs.

Wake up Australia ,and stop being so apathetic.Our Govt will not change their immigration policies unless we put pressure on them.They are petrified of being called racist,and that is why Muslims and their apologists scream it the loudest.That is their main weapon.They refuse to confront their own problems unwillingness to intergrate,widespread hate,intolerance and violence.

If Muslims have an average of 8 children and we continue to have 2.5 per family,after three generations the families that average 2.5 offspring will have produced 15.6 children,while those who have and average of 8 children will produce 448 children.

What sort of a future do we want for our grandchildren?It all just seems too futuristic and too far away for us to bother with and we are too scared of being called racist.

On the news last night, Keyser Trad complaining[again!] about how Muslims are viewed in Australia.
On the news tonight we may see how Australians have banded together to prevent Lebanese thugs from claiming an Australian beach and the parents of young Life Savers are keeping their kids from that same beach and those same thugs so they do not get beaten up.
Maybe next week Mr Trad Or Mr Irfan will again claim about how unfairly Muslims are treated in this country.
I think this whole multiculture ideal has turned distinctly sour. It has not been the fault of Australians who have "given it a go", it is the fault of an aggressive, arrogant people who will never fit in anywhere.

The one major mistake the 'Middle Eastern' thugs made, was to attack an ICON of all it means to be 'aussie' in the form of a Life Saver... they may as well have been Jews attacking the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aksah mosque in terms of the feeling generated by this unconcienable act.

To further exacerbate it by claiming it was 'Their' beach, was tamount to infidels attacking the Holy place of Mecca...

They will never ever recover from this. I believe it signals the awakening of Australian race/religious/cultural conciousness which will only end with the total marginalization and social excommunication of Muslims as a whole, sadly.

Who's fault is this ? The initiators or those simply reacting ? One is drawn to believe it is the 'initiators'.

The Lebanese civil war began with the murder and mutilation of 4 Christians returning from a Funeral.

Long before the Saba and Shatila attacks, there was another, which can be described as 'a reason' those PLO military camps (not 'refugee camps' ) were attacked.

It is a place called DAMOUR south of Beruit. 1974

http://www.cedarland.org/damour.html (please read and understand)

BEFORE
a town of some 25,000 people, containing five churches, three chapels, seven schools, private and public, and one public hospital where Muslims from nearby villages were treated along with the Christians, at the expense of the town.

AFTER
the forces of Sa’iqa, consisting of 16,000 Palestinians and Syrians, and units of the Mourabitoun and some fifteen other militias, reinforced by mercenaries from Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and a contingent of Libyans...

Whole families were killed in their homes. Many women were gang-raped, and few of them left alive afterwards. One woman saved her adolescent daughter from rape by smearing her face with washing blue to make her look repulsive. As the atrocities were perpetrated, the invaders themselves took photographs and later offered the pictures for sale to European newspapers. Survivors testify to what happened.

If you haven't heard about this BUT HAVE heard of Saba and Shatila... ask WHY ?

Arjay,

I've just returned from Holland after an 18 month stint and I can tell you I didn't need a bodyguard. Nor did it even occur to me that I required one. You friends sound like sooks who should get over themselves.

BTW, if we're going to get rid of our multicultural policy, I nominate Con's culture of whining and hissy fits as the first to go - his minority culture is clearly incompatible with modern Western culture.

sjk

Perhaps sjk you kept to the straight and narrow and kept away from the no go areas.Good thinking.

I suggested before, multiculturaism is a halfway house to assimilation.

"Integration" has never worked because it depends on the continued existence of diverse groups - like catholic versus protestant IRishmen and women living in an atmosphere of "integration".

Assimilation requires the virtual destruction of an original group or groups into a single homogeneous nation. Ultimately, it is the only thing which "works" because it requires social divisions to be disgarded. Morally it cannot be "hurried" or "forced" (Queen Isobella style).

Hence the superiority of a secular state - it avoids any merit being occassioned to the zealots who prance around spitting hate and venom in the name of religion.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Easier said than done. If Muslims are wishy-washy, middle-of-the-road, not-so serious, live and let live, back-slider, non-practicing Muslims - then yes, Muslims can fit into Western culture.

However if they want to be “good” observant Muslims, and really follow the precepts of Islam – well, then the answer is NO. Islam is incompatible with Western values of democracy, equality and free speech. To think otherwise is to play the fool.

As I have pointed out so often, Muslims cannot be honest about their religion and their dear prophet. To get along with Muslims and “respect” them, you must also be dishonest about these things. You must ignore the hate and anger in their writings and you must ignore the many vile acts and often vulgar life of Mohammud. Radical Muslims kill, moderate Muslims make excuses.

To get along with Muslims you must be willing to apply different (inferior) standards to their speech and conduct; and pretend that their faith, laws, customs and practices (particularly in Muslim dominated countries) are admirable and deserving of respect. You must be willing to make excuses and accept generalized, gross violations of human rights as minor aberrations by a few insignificant individuals. You must be willing to accept words and actions that, if practiced by individuals of western culture, would be resoundingly condemned in a minute. This is a form of cultural racism in a way - a bigotry of low expectations if you wish.

This use of different standards for different people is the essence of multiculturalism. Well actually, the basic ideology advocated by Multiculturalists is that Western culture is evil and everything else is great. You may criticize any and everything about European heritage and history (fine with me!), but you must not only overlook the shortcomings and failures of other societies and not even talk about them, you must even go so far as to distort facts and ignore history to make them feel good (not a good idea!). That is Multiculturalism.

Kactuz

I have been reading about the “riots” in Sidney. Such dishonesty and stupidity!

First of all the media cannot be honest. Why not say “Muslims” instead of using words like “people of Middle Eastern origin,” “Middle Eastern appearance” (The Age), “Arabic-speaking Australians” (Daily telegraph), “it appeared the men were of Middle Eastern descent” and “Middle Eastern origin” (The Australian), immigrants, and so on….

Second, anybody who attacks people without reason – and this goes for whites, Muslims and anybody else - is scum! Period. No excuses.

I notice press seems to put most of the blame on “white” Australians, even if they note that people going to that beach have frequently been harassed by some unidentified group of people for reasons unknown. Who can they be?

This is the fruit of Multiculturalism. I hope our liberal multiculturalists friends feel proud of what they have done. This issue about the beaches is nothing! Wait a few more years and see what the Islamists have in store for you! Going to the beach will be the least of your worries.

This is why we need to be honest with our Muslims friends, so that they clearly understand that we understand that truth about Islam. It is an intolerant and violent religion.

John aka Kactuz aka Kactuzki

Tieran

For balance and fairness and to avoid accusations of bias, perhaps you'd like to post the same verses in Arabic.

Con well said ,you speak for most Australians, sad times ahead for this country and its clear we can not aviod them.
My youth was spent in Sydney working with people from all over the world.
I was taken into homes and hearts and to this day have the greatest respect for those great people, not one of them questioned our lifestyle or in any way our countrys culture.
That however was the 1970,s different times different people.
Just a handfull but the problem exists.

Boaz, it is with some sorrow that I have to point out that you must shoulder some of the responsibility for this weekend's atrocities in Sydney.

>>Who's fault is this ? The initiators or those simply reacting ? One is drawn to believe it is the 'initiators'.<<

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, this is exactly what happens when you stir up the dirt, with your sophisticated religiosity and dispassionate intellectualizing. Mosley did it in Britain in the thirties, and then stood back in hurt surprise when the thugs took over.

You cannot be part of the solution, thanks to the way you see your religion, but it would be really neat if you recognized that you are being part of the problem by fanning the flames of hatred with your regular anti-muslim diatribes.

And tell me how "Australian" it is for mobs to roam the streets looking for "people of Middle Eastern appearance" with the intention to beat them up?

I think Con needs to talk to his parents about how they were recieved when the WOGS started turning up in OUR country.

NB. Sorry for any offence caused by the use of the word Wog just trying to remind the author it is easy to label people.

Also it was stated "They will also tell you, that the war in Afghanistan and in Iraq is occupation and colonisation by the American led coalition, and not a war against global terror." I would say that a large number of westerns think the same thing chap.

Well said Pericles.

Not that I have a problem with anyone needing religion, but using it as an excuse to incite fear and hatred is something I suspect Jesus might not have liked.

In fact, using anything at all as an excuse to incite fear and hatred is cowardly and results in rubbish like the mess we saw on the weekend.

There's very little logic going on here. It's sad that so many people of all colours and ethnicities are living with chronic fear.

Kactuz,

Correct. The Muslim problem is really one where the singer is not necessarily bad, but the song stinks.

"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate." (Ibn Warraq)

Re Race Riots:

A case of the silent majority saying enough is enough and bringing down their own form of Justice after years of oppression by middle eastern gangs over other youth.

An example of a similar event was in 1994, It was again a case of a minority group ruling the streets and oppressing the remainder of the people. This happenned for years until their was a severe bashing of an elderley man who happened to be a brother of the leader of a prominent 'Aussie' motorcycle gang. Enough was then enough. A gang of white vigilante men began combing the streets, pubs, and shops bashing every last person of this minority, linked or not to the attack, until the minority was driven underground into hiding and never effect these people again. in 11 years the streets are still quiet. A possible extreme scenario we are moving towards?

This was going to come to head one day, and it looks like it is not over, for now extremity after extremity will occur with revenge as a motive, until we wind back the clock to our segregated attitudes in the 1960's.

These current youths have until now been free to oppress by being in large numbers, with a core reason of needing to feel powerful over other people.

Australian society is underpinned unfortunately by white anglo saxons with their own version of extremism, many feeling upset at how they are dominated and treated by these middle eastern groups, but lack the gang mentality of a minority group. therefore when this silent majority stand up, it is in response to continued and blatant injustices being carried out on those who do not ask for it.

I am sorry for you all, but i am afraid for what will come next. the next middle eastern extremity will bring in fringe groups like Motorcycle gangs and white extremests, who have an arsenal and a ability greater than fresh faced young white boys for destruction.

Welcome to the correction of society, and the changing of the guard on the streets.

Cronulla- Lebanese muslims are to blame for yesterdays riots- I used to wonder how things like Kosovo could gain public suppport. Now I know. The Aussies have bloody well had enough and its about time we stood up to thse lebanes bastards- They rape our women, they are gutles- they will only fight when they are armed or outnumber the opposition. So good on the boys at Cronulla, Thank you to the Bra boys at Maroubra- Keep strong, no-one else out there is protecting our culture. The police and government stick their bloody heads in the sand and don't want to appear racist- Bloody hell, who is racist? I have had my wife called "aussie slut" my daughter called "skippy slut" just for daring to walk down the street in Cronulla. Thank god at last our boys have had enough. Remember guys, stick together, they will use guns, knives etc, because they are gutless, you must stay vigilant and safety in numbers. Watch out for car loads of leb's, have a code for help and be ready at all times to help your brothers. You are your brothers keeper, noone else is.

Australia is in shock but not surprised I hope. When we have impotent governments ducking the issues for political gain - the mob mentality flourishes.

What we saw in the last 24 hours on the beaches of Sydney is Gang Territorial Anarchism Australian-style which has been evident for many years just ask any schoolie - not to be confused with the religious issue. A good example is Macquarie Fields.

Unfortunately the average Australian still doesn't have a clue about the real threat of Islam to their cultural way of life.

And please when you do get a clue could someone please inform the chief of the NSW police because he went public today saying:" if I knew the cause of the problem I'll find a solution..."

The undercurrent of violence so prominent in these posts and the events in NSW last week are such that I am compelled to drop the mask of anonymity.

These events have been called un Australian - they are very Australian indeed - they been carried out in some instances under the Australian flag - sadly. We did it to the Chinese in our colonial past and we did/do it to the indigenous population.

I have long rejected the implied agression on these pages dressed up in psuedo intellectualism and touting potted anthropological theories regarding inherent racial tendencies to violence and other absurd assumptions. I have tried to do so with a modicum of humour; it has never been that funny but now it is less so.

There will be those claiming a sense of prescience now that the slow burn of racism has found its expression in overt violence. Instead of recognising the tensions and seeking a solution too many have simply poured the fuel of ignorance and prejudice on the problem.

These issues are too important not to stand up and protest against those who fear the different and the diverse. It would not be a foolish question to ask who is next - who will we choose next to despise based on misunderstanding and lies?

This is not a question of multiculturalism or integration. It is a question of our capacity to adapt to change. Like it or not our community is comprised of countless peoples with diverse cultural aspirations and diverse outlooks on life. The differences are part of us where they beocme a problem is our failure not the fault of those who are different.

The cultural cringe is far from something limited to the arts and science it remains deeply rooted in our sense of identity - or lack there of - that so many of us lack the confidence in our own institutions, our own culture and our own capacity to stand side by side with that which is different and hold our own when challenged.

Kym Durance aka Sneekeepete.

The predictable hate-mongers are using the appalling situation at Cronulla to peddle their anti-Islam campaign.

FACT: Cronulla Beach is about thugs versus thugs, specifically Lebanese thugs versus (mostly) Caucasian thugs. NOT MUSLIMS VERSUS CHRISTIANS.

FACT: Lebanese thugs feel threatened by racist jibes – make a stand for themselves to prove masculinity and other thug and testosterone related behaviour.

FACT: ‘Self proclaimed Aussie’ thugs feel threatened “they can’t keep us off our beach” make a stand for themselves to prove masculinity and other thug and testosterone related behaviour.

FACT: Put these two groups together and you get major rumble.

FACT: Innocent people hurt; ambos and middle-east in appearance bystanders.

FACT: Aussie thugs infiltrated by Patriotic Youth League – a neo-nazi group always eager to take advantage of these situations to both increase hostility and further their cause.

FACT: Rumble is not fault of entire Muslim population.

FACT: Rumble not fault of entire ‘Aussie’ population.

The situation at Cronulla was a long time brewing. Like Redfern, is partly a result of poor youth support and run-down infrastructure. It is about economics as much as it is about race.

Think, Romper Stomper; neo-Nazis targeting Vietnamese youth. At one time Footscray suburb of Melbourne was regarded as no go zone. Usual rant about Vietnamese not integrating. No problems now. Vietnamese a boon to our culture and our economy.

What to do about it?

For a start our resident bible bashers could stop with the anti-Muslim rant and discuss ways of getting along with each other – I’d like to see that.

I challenge Boaz-David, Philo, Coach, Kactuz and the other usual culprits to come up with REALISTIC solutions – not hate, not deportation (where would you deport Aussie Lebanese to? Cronulla?).

Act like the Christians you claim to be and help your brothers.

The difficulty with ascribing the riots at Cronulla yesterday comes not from ethnic tension and lack of assimilation and integration of Lebanese youth into Australian culture so much as the lack of assimilation of the 'hobbits' from the Sutherland Shire into mainstream Australian culture.

Having worked with a number of people from 'The Shire' (Sutherland Shire to those of you not from Sydney) I would have to say that they are amongst the most self centred and anacronistic populations in Australia. Many do not see themselves as part of Sydney at all, and when they talk about 'crossing the bridge' they do not mean the Sydney Harbour Bridge, but any bridge across the Cooks River.

To them Cronulla is 'their beach' that others come to only if the locals let them, as there is no sense of anything else rather than local community and living in a pre multiculturalism time warp.

Having said that, any group in society that descends upon a beach in large cohesive numbers, say groups of ten or more, who proceed to take over a section of the beach and play loud music or games such as soccer or volleyball to the exclusion of other beach users are also at fault for alienating others. This is as much a problem, by the way, with Brazilians and British backpackers on Bondi Beach as much as it is 'Lebanese' at Cronulla or other groups at other beaches.

Bronte had a similar problem about 10 years ago, with a lamb being slaughtered and butchered 'halal' in the park and arguments over access to surf life saving club facilities.

I would also say that those who descend on Tamarama for the annual 'Sculptures by the Sea' who don't give a damn about the locals are also at fault, temporarily destroying the amenity of the local area by parking the area out on weekends and limiting the movements of the locals.

Fellow Human,
You are incapable from distinguishing snow from mud. All I was doing with my article was to drop few "sobering" snow flakes on your head, which regretably you could not distinguish from the "mud" in your head.

KOTZABASIS

Go to my Blog for more: NEMESIS: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Scout, excellent post.

All posters interested in solutions/cooperation etc.
I found a great excerpt from ahadith last night (Salam Cafe web site) "A true Muslim is one from whose hands and tongues other people are safe.". There seems to have been a lot of quoting of hadith by some but I have not noticed this particular one.

Kind of the same message that FH has been trying to get across I think.

For those who don't know many muslims first hand and want some kind of understanding of how one group of muslims see themselves the "Salam Cafe" show is great. In Brisbane Briz31, 9:30pm Thursday nights. Other places see the web site www.salamcafe.com.au for details. This is not a paid advertisement just in case you are wondering.

R0bert

I don't believe that the Cronulla situation is about economics. There are plenty of poor people in the world who don't become violent, so I think thats a lame excuse. I think its about plain old human behaviour as we understand it.

After reading the Quadrant article by Tim Priest, the retired detective, who blew the whistle on what was happening within the NSW policeforce, I can only conclude that the problem is political, as for PC and political reasons, Lebanese gangs were not nipped in the bud when they first became a problem. Had they been dealt with effectively then, you would not now have this situation.

Face it, if the police are unable to protect people and keep law and order, eventually people take things into their own hands.

At the end of the day, we are a tribal and territorial species by nature, as history shows. That can be unlearned to some degree, as both instinct and environment affect behaviour, but that layer of civilisation is pretty thin, as events in say New Orleans clearly showed.

So IMHO this whole situation is now biting the NSW Govt fairly in the arse. Much harder to sort things out now, then to have nipped them in the bud a long time ago.

To Kym Durrance:

Why do you denigrate Australians for expecting that immigrants will honour their laws and respect their way of life? How is it socially constructive for immigrant groups to live in closed communities that reject the values of the host country?

You mention the cultural cringe. I have long suspected that those who promote multiculturalism have a strong dislike of their own culture and people. In the past, newly returned from their grand tour, nothing in Australia was as good as in England. Then it was Europe. Now, these cultural cringers want us to believe that any and every culture that arrives here is acceptable and deserving of our respect. Anyone who doubts this is called a racist.

Most cultures and religions can exist in harmony with others, but fundamentalist Islam is inimical to secular, Western democracy and it is this aggressive strain that appeals to hotheaded young Muslims the world over. That is why young girls in Europe have readopted the hijab when their mothers never wore them, even in their homelands. It preaches violent jihad against the West which gives young males an excuse to practise violence against non-Muslims

For many years fundamentalist Islam was promoted in Australia on an Islamic Youth Group website purporting to provide objective information about Islam. It encouraged young men to follow Osama Bin Laden's example and warned them not to mix with non-Muslims for fear of contamination.

"Moderate" Islam sits on the fence, never unequivocally condemning the others, even when they commit atrocities. There is always a "but".

Tolerant Australians, like the Europeans, were slow to recognise the hatred in their midst. Now they know.

Nothing in the above condones mob violence in response. We must hope our governments belatedly wake up and demand that immigrant communities fulfil their half of the multicultural contract.
D2

I am so disgusted by this display of unjustifiable discrimination. I am disappointed, angry, and irritated (to say the least) that these mobs have stolen my own opinion as an Australian by stating that they are fighting back for all "Aussies".

What right do they have to assume the identity as Australia's representative in this battle of racism?

Their vicious and unwarranted behaviour is the last thing that I, as an Australian, would ever consent to. It just goes to show how uncivilised and how red necked some Australians are. These disgraceful racists who think that they can settle things by a simple case of "mass harassment" had better learn quickly that there are alot of Australians who are embarrased and ashamed to call them their neighbours.

I feel a great sadness, concern and anxiety towards the possible future relations that the different racial groups of Australia will have. What sort of Australia will I, my children, and my grandchildren have to live in if violence is the answer to racial tensions? To all those parents reading this who agree with the malevolence displayed on the weekend, what sort of Australia are you creating for your children? Quite possibly one where, because they have certain physical features, they will get beaten to death in a brawl and left in an alley way to die? Or perhaps they will be lucky and be a part of the "Australian Aryan" race. Either way it's disgusting that, considering the way things are going now, it's almost certain that this is how our society will end up.

The street brawls, angry mob scenes and soon, deaths, will just be the start of our Nazi Australia.

Sincerely,
A concerned Australian

Con,

Let me see how ‘muddy’ and ‘clouded’ my view is:

What happened on Cronulla beach was nothing but a bunch of bastards fighting with volunteer life savers. Even though myself and few others sent support emails to the Cronulla surfers club, it was only thugs on the beach who should be arrested and immediately prosecuted.

The gangs are nothing more than a youth problem in search for identity, I still see third generation Aussies introducing themselves to me as Greeks, Macedonians, Italians and they neither speak the language nor can locate Macedonia on the map.

The issue is simply respect for the law and the society, the difference between a typical Middle Eastern culture and Aussie/ Western culture is respect of the law, society and value individual properties and lives. The 5,000 mobs on Cronulla who may think they were Aussies, they behaved as bad as any Middle Eastern street mob can do. These bastards got drunk, attacked innocent visitors, policemen & women, and destroyed private properties.

We do have a leadership and law enforcement issue: anyone who breaks any law should be dealt with with no buts, ifs and excuses. We see to be always willing to follow the analysis path. The line between a good Australian and un-australian is clear black & white: Australian = respect the society, its laws, private properties and freedom of others. The opposite of that is un-Australian and should be deported whether aborigines or the great grand son of captain cook.

Boaz,

The yellow media contributed to the ‘Cronulla day of infamy’ and similar tabloid events that you keep referring to. Re the case of M & B Skaf: most Muslims community especially kids who went to school with the rapists will tell you that they are non-practising Muslims and in fact used to mock other practising Muslims colleagues.

Which media did you see publish those facts?

Coach,

Why is ‘our version’ of Jesus story annoying you so much? You should be happy with your belief and celebrate your truth as you see it.

Regarding the 'Lebanese' at Cronulla, and all the calls that they are fundamentalist Islamics.

Ha!

Most would go to a mosque with the same frequency as the Cronulla locals who rioted on Sunday go to church, in other words, virtually never. Most would not be able to quote the Quoran if their lives depended on it, in much the same way that the rioters wouldn't know a psalm from a parable.

Many of the members of the Lebanese groups - I won't call them gangs, are actually of nominally Christian background. These two groups, who were alternatively at war and peace in the Lebanon from parts of one culture in Australia, undivided.

To give an example, the gang to which Michael Kanaan belonged comprised Lebanese of both Islamic and Maronite background, with members from other ethnic groups.

What they have in common is that they came to Australia from a country that had been in civil war for some time, where the rule of law and civil society had never existed. This was not due to religious reasons.

So, here we have two groups, one yobbo Australian, the other suffering from being a minority and being considered to be bad, both wanting turf, both wanting to prove masculinity and both not willing to tolerate difference.

Islam has nothing to do with it.

Phew!

Reading the above posts had me in a knot, as did listening to talk back radio today.

Just a little while ago, on 4bc radio Brisbane, I listened to one of the Bra Gang. What he said was chilling! In a nutshell, he said: "This is war. We will fight back with guns and other stuff".

My husband and I left Sydney 2002 - thank goodness. During a five year period I only travelled on a train once. I was too scared to continue the practice. I do not give a stuff if you call me racist. That was my reality - and the reality was that the scarey people were of middle eastern appearance. You cannot change my reality. I was scared stiff. Spitting, bullying, slut etc.

Having said that, the caucasion young people yestereday are a disgrace to this country.

Both groups are plain thugs. We should not condone the behaviour of either group.

Bring back: parenting control, school teacher control, and police control for all.

Wake up politicians!

Regards
Kay

PS: We now feel safe where we live - away from both thug groups.

PPSS: To suggest that BOAZ_David has had a hand in the Cronulla riots is downright disgusting.

I shall be a little more ‘in your face’ with the resident racists (& I include the intolerant religious in this- there is only a superficial difference). Lets look at which side of the argument is more firmly rooted in reality. I add this because we ‘lefties’ are often accused of being unrealistic-
Let us assume that racism has its way democratically & we have a political system that allows racial & religious discrimination. Let us assume that white European descent allows us to make race & religion-specific laws. More or less, One Nation runs this place.
What next? Do we introduce a policy of race-based immigration? This would create rifts in our international standing at all levels, trade included. We are part of a global community now. To back off relations with a fair percentage of nations would be of great detriment to Australia in all ways. It would be a major risk to our security as a nation.
Do we, at the other end of the legal system, ban Lebanese Australians from Cronulla beach? Or do we ban Moslem? Or is that all dark skinned of Arabic extract? Do we show our birth certificate or DNA profile to authorities before entering the Shire? This is called ‘Apartheid’. It set South Africa back 20 years.

Could BD Realist, etc explain what legal &/or social changes they would like to see implemented that would better their cause?
The fact is that we, like it or not, live in a ‘global’ situation. The choice between ‘tribal’ & ‘global’ does not exist. We do not have ‘exclusion’ as a choice. Multiculturalism, for this nation, is inevitable. It is our challenge to manage ‘integration’. We connect too well through modern international communications & travel for us to not accept that we all are the same, in different situations.
It is our challenge as a species to resolve our differences, to accept, embrace & preserve differences in culture. To be generous with those we perceive as a little different. It is not racist to perceive difference & act on this in a way that benefits all.
It is inevitable that the races of this species will learn to co-exist. Or they will cease to exist. We have the choice….

Fellow Human, (All others posters stay out please)

>>Why is ‘our version’ of Jesus story annoying you so much? You should be happy with your belief and celebrate your truth as you see it.<<

Please stop embarrassing yourself and your fellow muslims - If this was the same Jesus you and I were talking about how come you don't call yourself a Christian like I do and celebrate Him as your Lord and Saviour?

Don't bother answering that one. You and I know exactly what your game is, right? This is one dude you cannot fool.

To you Jesus is just a prophet – and He is of course because He is also God. Well a prophet job is to prophesise, right?

Here is your question for this week: Where did Jesus prophesise about another prophet call Muhammad? And more importantly Why would Jesus send another when He himself is the alpha and the omega – the beginning and the end? The fulfiller of all prophesies?

See the difference between God and the look-alikes is that the true God gives the Holy Spirit that lives in all who believe in His Son Jesus. An experience that you cannot comprehend by staying "on the outside" trapped in rules and regulations that lead to nowhere.

It is no longer I who lives but He who lives in me. “Relationship” NOT “religion”.

When I pray I talk WITH my father God and I listen to Him. I am His adopted son and co-heir with Jesus in His kingdom.

You cannot enjoy that nor can you take it away from me because I am sealed to Him for eternity.

Where will you spend eternity?

And by the way just out of curiosity how come you have so much time on your hands to be on the internet 24/7?

Welcome to the lucky country - Enjoy it while you can. This is the only life you will ever have.

Sydney is so dangerous these days and the cancer is spreading.Two years ago my son was assualted at Darling Harbour merely for wearing an Australian cap and enjoying the fire works.I was awoken by a mobile phone call and his pannicked pleas for help as he and his friends sprinted for safety.It all ended in a stand off between 40 thugs and a few police at the Queen Victoria building.No one was arrested since the chief offenders were under age.The racial mix was Pacific Islander,Aboriginal,Middle Eastern and a few Anglo ferals.

Just a weeks ago gets assaulted outside a local yacht with thugs bearing base ball bats club at the conclusion of function attended by parents and teachers.Two people taken to hospital.Offenders were Middle Eastern Ferals.
Also recently had to run for his life as 3 thugs in white beanies chased him while waiting for a bus at Lane Cove.

I know of so many people who get assaulted just minding their own business ,it not funny.Many are refusing to have parties for their children becase of gate crashes and violence.

It has got out of control because Govt and the PC brigade refuse to confront the problem.The police are at their wits end,they get no support from the administration.Crime stats are down because most crime goes unreported.The judicial system refuses give any real sentences since the Govt can't afford the billions to keep them in gaol.

The sore will continue to fester because this State Govt is broke and still churns out the same old spin.Macquarie Fields for example has now been reclassified as a disturbance instead of a riot.

Cronulla and Maroubra are just the tip of the iceburg and it will only get worse.

The problem is simply one of law & order. The softly softly approach, developed to appease the bleeding heart lobby is the cause of troubly all over Australia.
It may be Lebonese in Sydney, or Aboriginals, in Cairns, but once the antisocial behavior has been established, in a minor way, without immediate, & heavy response, the rot has started.
Once emboldened, by lack of response the "yobo" of any group WILL become worse.
Australians, of the old school, are slow to anger, & because of that, will finally over respond, with a bang. I hope our poiltical masters have got the message, because, if they don't change the current thinking, there will be deaths in the street.
Its time to stop worring about the academic response in timbuktu, & nip the problem now.

To Swilkie, Scout, Kym and others calling for 'realistic solutions'

Thanx..

Yes..I have suggestions.

IMMIGRATION RELATED
1/ Prior to any person coming to Australia, it will be pointed out in very clear terms that there is a prevailing culture here. Cronulla is an example of that, 90% anglo. The rest is somewhat less indeed, but still Anglo/Celt/Northern Euro is without question 'our culture' taken on a statistical basis.

-We 'shake hands' with both male and female
-we 'Hold doors open' for people who are near us when going into a shop
-We Celebrate Christmas and Easter.
-We have cultural aspects to the marraige of 2 people.
-We support the underdog.
-Our emergency services will NOT treat anyone different because of their religion, they will be treated EXACTLY the same as anyone else in the community based on the values of the prevailing culture.
Our laws will NOT be changed by 'innovative' pressure groups of ethnic or religious minorities who want things more 'suitable' for them (Interest fee loans, allowable domestic violence, bigamy, burial laws, food laws)

All of this will be explained and illustrated to would be migrants, who will sign a declaration of alliegance to uphold and respect these values, and their citizenship will be conditional on that, with any breach resulting in cancellation of citizenship within 10 yrs of taking up residence.

ETHNIC/RELIGIOUS (non Christian) GROUPS ALREADY HERE. (and us)

CIVICS classes will be compulsory in every school, including private and religious, covering subjects such as the pionerring and convict background of Australia, its poetry and art, its highs and its lows, and they will be examined on these things. Emphasis on loyalty to Australia will be a LARGE part of such civics classes. Such classes will include coverage of 'social manners' in public places.

Swilks "multicultural world" ? Sure but this is Australia, a sovereign nation state and WE....have a prevailing culture.

CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE
"Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite...."

PART 2

Hasbeen... spot on.

SHAME on the Cronulla Shire for not taking action on ethnic anti social behavior 2 yrs ago

SHAME on the New South Wales Police for not acting EARLIER (like 2 yrs ago)

MOST SHAME

on Bob Carr and the State government for pandering to ethnic sensibilities at the expense of social order, and apparently urging magistrates in hot beds of ethnic gang crime to 'go easy' so they can keep the CRIME STATISTICS down... and in a favorable political light.

EXTREME SHAME on all those who held back (for fear of accusations of 'racism') from what they KNEW should be done for the past 2 to 3 yrs for the purposes of POLITICAL EXPEDIENCY or personal gain.

SHAME SHAME SHAME to the magistrates who were confronted with clear cut cases of gang violence but who then BLAMED THE POLICE for racial/religious insensitivity and set the perpetrators FREE !

SHAME IN THE UTMOST to those who failed to support the Police when their station was overrun by ethnic gangsters, intimidating officers
and threatening to kill them and rape their wives.

SHAME ON ME... for not being all I should be under God in Christ.

Matthew 23:27

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean

PIEBALD AUSTRALIA

A lot of blokes are correct to say that legislated multuculturalism it has to be.

Why not? WE make it a penalty not to take hard drugs...its legislated...for the "good of society".

It is failing, but so should Australia abandon the legislation (drugs/multiculturalism)? Or abandon the ideal of a drug-free country? .

We should also legislate against race hate, and there should be limits to what racists/politicians are allowed to promulgate. Both are censorship anyway, so why should only one side of the racist divide, liberal-conservative divide etc have the say? I say, have the right sense to vote people who will give the judicious mix of legislation to get Australia out of this insanity and inconsistency.

Look you at Cronulla. There were "whites" claiming to be Australians who went around doing exactly what we'd expect 3rd world country terrorists in places like IRAQ would do. SHAME on you so-called Australians and your double standards even when applied to your own citizens.

Heal yourselves before you look North to Myanmar. Pass judgement only when you have done your home work. Then there will be a moral high ground for all the criticism we level at others. Denying racism exists in Australia is like denying the Abos don't exist.

There is failure in the school system to deal with racism.

This is where legislation needs to be tightened up. New ways to inculcate multicultural values must be discovered. Committed teachers should be placed in influential positions to ensure this.

Immigrants should be properly prepared to be sensitive to existing mores, and of coarse if it is possible, terrorists screened out.

But more so existing Australians need to have cultural awareness campaigns to open their minds to the dangers of increased polarization and its effects on future generations.

What I saw in Cronulla and Sydney beaches looked like France a month ago. France will repeat itself in Australia, if left to the racist agenda.

Unfortunately you can't re-export them as Old Mother England did with her convicts, recalcitrant "whites" and others.

The Police are focussing on the wrong people:

The police and government must move away from focussing its attention on ageing community leaders and focus on young adult figures within any groups involved.

I'm thinking of one individual in particular who I would identify as a senior 'Australian' leader of the large and ultimatley influential 'Bra Boys' group.

Koby Abberton.

For those of you unfamiliar with Mr Abberton he is a senior surfing figure well recognised throughout Australia and the world for his surfing ability and a competitive surfer on the surfing world tour.

More relevant to this discussion is the fact that he is a senior figure in the Maroubra community who is well respected/recognised by not only the 'Bra Boys' but I would argue by the majority of the youth community.

In light Mr Abberton's continuing court case it would be to his advantage and the sydney coastal community if he were to publicly condemn the weekend's violence, and call upon the 'Bra Boys' community to do the same. Mr Abberton needs to realise that not only would this be a moral and courageous act but it would the public's opinion of him and would also reflect well on his continued sponsorship deals (His sponsors were criticised for their continued support in light of his alleged crimes). If Mr Abberton plays his card's right his support for a non-violent solution to the violence would reflect well when he next appears in court.

Organised religion is so Monty Pythonesque, it rarely fails to give me a good belly laugh.

If I may quote from their classic movie "Life of Brian"... "Blessed are the cheese makers, apparently they are going to inherit the Earth....Well, obviously, it's not meant to be taken literally, it refers to all manufacturers of dairy products"

Brian and a group of his fellow Jews standing a good way back while Jesus gives his famous sermon on the mount give their interpretation on it but the scene, for all of its comic genius, is a perfectly reasonable historical assumption.

The Bible, the Koran etc are nothing more than a bunch of over exposed fairy tales that a bunch of stone-age illiterates told to another bunch of illiterates who eventually told them to someone who could write and after individual interpretation, embellishment, exaggeration and artistic license evolved into the wonderful publications of today that are the root of the majority of this world's problems.

So much historical and scientific data is becoming available to those open-minded enough to look at it objectively that I truly believe when our global society finally shakes off it's government and religious induced state of fear, that not only will the "Jesus and Mohammed walk into a bar..." skits will be flying thick and fast but that logic will prevail and see organised religion for what it is, the supreme human arrogance to think in a universe infinitely massive, with an infinite amount of stars and planets, that a higher, omnipotent power would send not one, but a few dozen of his "prophets" to give us a multitude of different gods, different laws and most importantly, different dress codes. How amusing and how pathetically sad that the majority are people so brainwashed by this nonsense and that it causes all the violence that is does.

Knight etc

I found your post very interesting and worth reading.

Illiterate? My you are egocentric. How is your super-ego?

Merry Christmas
Kaay

“FH: Not in Australia, but Bosnia 1996, Orthodox Christians (Lead by an Orthodox Priest) killed 8,000 Muslim women and children, cut off two fingers of each hand (babies were not spared) so they meet Jesus with “Trinity” fingers. I have not seen any condemnation and the Pope said : “we are all Christians”, should I assume he included those criminals as well?”
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 4:16:49 PM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3860

I read the links FH provided, at Mr.P.Pigs request for validation:
http://www3.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/updates/9602/07/
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/der-ii020703e.htm
http://www.irct.net/torture_journal/Torture-2.pdf
There are NO 8000 fingerless victims! There were 3000 victims who kept their fingers… The atrocities in the link are in 1992 not 96 as FH claims.

Robert,

Even FH knows he lied, he proves it by posting links that are not to the atrocity he originally quotes. I don’t give a dam if it did or didn’t muck up the flow or context of the conversation. I hate that you go out of your way to support unproven statements, especially on such a heavy topic as war atrocities.

What questions will I ask?

I’d ask/suggest that we keep bringing down the PC. We need honest talk/negotiation not enforced PC scripted ways to think and behave. we’re all full of resentment at not being able to air natural reactions to things we find abhorrent.

I said to you, I don’t care if you call me “hateful” I actually meant it. How can I converse with you when your feelings on the issue are drafted for you by new-age emotions of PC dogma? Ifran may not be as nice on the surface as FH but he’s at least honest about how he’s feeling.

Have you wondered if we had been able to admit the Lebs were causing problems that Sutherland may not have happened? It was un-PC to say there were specific problems with, or to lay any blame on a minority. Once PC is gone we can actually examine the problem unhindered by fear of the ugly truths.

So I’d ask Australians to keep being honest about how they feel regardless of PC.

sorry everyone this is off topic, its continued convo with Robert from an old thread i can't open anymore as its to large for my puter

Right lets go,

1.If a minority seeks to dominate the majority through violence intimidation and threats, the majority will inevitably react.

2.Once a cycle of violence starts, it is very hard to stop.

3.The various community spokespeople and leaders in these communities must accept part of the blame for which, as they made no concerted effort to prevent the inevitable.

4.The cycle has now led to one side being involved in an armed retaliatory strike, and a fracas with police.

5.This will lead to an armed response.

6.Sooner, rather than later (given the history & culture of NW Sydney) firearms will be used in these attacks, with the result that innocent people and police are killed.

7.If this happens the army WILL become involved.

8.Who do you think they will target? (The minority or the majority?)

9.The community leaders in Sydney need to tone down their rhetoric, to prevent the continuation of hte violence. This is in their own self-interest - because if they do not - THEY WILL LOSE.

10.The other alternative is a classical 'war of attrition'. The ethnic gangs are outnumbered by several dozens to one. If the violence continues, they will be arrested at a similar rate (if not a higher rate). Within a short period there will be a noticeable lack of youths between 12-25, and their community will be open to exploitation by vengeful groups.

11. Therefore the communities involved, although not totally at fault, must accept that this is the result of their failure to restrain the elements within their own community, or they will face a very dark future.

12.The communities involved must take action now, to demonstrate that they don't just blame the wider society - but also their own shortcomings. This will require them to crack down on the sources of the conflict.

Irfan, Why if the maronites are involved in the same gangs as the rest, are they targeted by them (for instance my sister's fiance got 78 staples in his skull from such a targeted attack).

Don’t expect any sympathy from the intellectual fraud’s who claim racism, blame your own ignorant idealistic agendas, this is the “Grim Reapers” calling card, and the paradox of the left’s doing.
DB immigration is the problem and has always been the inevitable disaster, so was the Money for nothing and the welfare Idealism fraud, some of the sickening gut wrenching parasites comment above, is a sure sign they to are high recipients of Government grants and the new form of welfare and how the Sub-intellectual cognitive run to protect their own fraud: now paid by ordinary Australians work and effort based Tolerance in the form of Taxes.
The levels of existing Pathological hatred of ones own society gives no meaning to political standpoints, simply because they are the New Parasites, The Looters, Moochers, with no ability and no logical reasoning: the Progeny of newly formed simpletons. Why they persecute the host Nation to which they bleed for their misbegotten existence and wealth is ours alone; We as Australia’s need to deal with.
You have done yourselves a massive diss-service; you have just made the inconsistencies of your ability quite easy to distinguish, and not only have you exposed the fraud of Variant levels of socialist ideals, you have destroyed a great many people in your attempts to disseminate the lies and propaganda. That you will pay for, not by mobsters, but by the Intelligent you held in contempt and advice you suppressed ; because it exposed you for the Fraud you are.
Yourselves alone are to blame, and I hope the public holds you in the up-most contempt, you have earned it.
But for now we need to fix the society you have smashed and broken.

D2
Cant see how I have denigrated Australians in the manner you describe: most immigrants respect our laws and way of life; when it comes to ways of life "there's" and "ours" need not be mutually exclusive. By and large they have been complimentary.
Not all non indigenous native Ausgtralians respect the laws of the land - most do as do most immigrants.

As for living on enclaves most of the old ones have broken down, as I expect will those of this decade - if the residents are giiven a chance.

I certainly do not dislke our own culture - there are elements of it that are unsavoury - but so what - one of the best bits of our culturw is we do not have to like eveything it has to offer or every aspect of it and can say so.

I have no reason not to repsesct ohter cultures on the same basis - reject some aspects accept others - just like our own.

The cultural cringe theme relates to those people who feel threatened by other cultures - if you lack confidence in who or what you are those differences for some are frightening - that is my point. So instead of being prepared to welcome a different veiw point, agree to disagree and permit the customs to co-exist we strike out at the other one in panic - as some are scared of being over shadowed; thats the cringe - it is not found in accepting others or respecting them as you suggest.

Immigrant commuinties have been fulfilling their siide of the contract for decades in this country - most still do - and most will if given the chance and not backed into a corner; a direction we seem hell bent on taking.

Kym

Coach,

You & Meredith seem to enjoy personal attacks on anyone who have a different point of view…two words: grow up!

Thank you fro your concern about ‘where I will end up’. For Muslims, Jesus according to the Bible is as human as it gets: he prayed to God, thought God abandoned him on the Cross and confessed he does not know the hour of judgement.
In my experience people are comfortable with a view only when they stop debating and attacking opposite positions so I am hoping one day you will reach this stage.

Enjoy Christmas & all the best,

Meredith,

I really don’t understand what you are trying to say. When I commented that terrorists target Muslims you strongly disagreed, then you sent me a link to this article about civil war in Algeria which confirms my view and proves you wrong!. Please explain!

http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr90/falgeria1992.htm

Merry Christmas and peace to all,

Fellow Human,

Firstly >>Enjoy Christmas & all the best<< thank you but I have already the best and I celebrate His birthday everyday because without Him there is no life. (it's in the bible too)

Secondly - We all need to grow up; it’s part of being human. But I see you have already reached that position >> I am hoping one day you will reach this stage<<

So Mister Wiseman what’s the matter am I getting too theological for you?? You want to run and prey on some simpler minds?

If you can’t handle the truth stop coming for more. Go clobber somebody…or some "thing"

The only problem is that you keep leaving a trail of slur behind you every time you open a dialogue for example:

>> In my experience people are comfortable with a view only when they stop debating and attacking opposite positions<<

Your position is not only opposite, contrary, different, …… it is not even remotely parallel.

You simply can’t handle it.

The only way to stop this 'war' is to get the leaders/representatives of each group(not the aging religious leaders etc, the young at the current coalface) to sit down and attempt to work on a solution.

on face value this is inneffective, but the problem now in this embrionic stage is lack of communication, and i am talking direct communication with eachother away from the lynch mobs.

The young lebanese must be shown the error of their mentality and thier self segregation. They have attempted to dominate others throughout Sydney for years, and are a law unto themselves on the street, with confidence and attitudes correlating with numbers.

My opinion is that they are trying to dominate others now after feeling oppression for generations. this is an opinion only though.

The young "Aussies" need to be shown that you are dealing with an extreme group that is so afraid to be persecuted due to their pasts/family past that they persecute others, and these people are inbuilt to not stop fighting until there is none of them left. they will enact revenge after revenge, so it is up to the "Aussies" to be constructive and intelligent about the solution.

Enough is enough, i can sympathise with them, but you are dealing with people with differing beliefs to yours and therefore you must have empathy for a solution to work.

The clock is ticking.

The first death will open the floodgates, Palm Island, Redfern, nothing has been seen even remotely like this before.

I hope the Mosques are insured, but one thing to love about Aussies is they will genreally only get together on the weekend for revenge, we couldnt be bothered during the week (bra boys and niche groups the exception).

I love Aussie culture!

It seems the Hobbits from the Shire have finally risen against the evil Orcs. Listening to talk back radio and reading letters to the Editor is clearly a revelation. The Shire is theirs and those entering the Shire had best behave or suffer the direst of consequences.

As a last bastion of the White Australia Policy they exhibit the worst of racism, bigotry and xenophobia.

Then we have the Orcs. Disconnected youths from patriarchal societies where women are often considered inferior, they lack respect for their elders, authority and have no ambition. They congregate in “gangs” for lack of any alternative and collectively have the largest “chip on the shoulder” of any ethnic group having assumed the role of “victims”.

Combine these two groups in Lord Howard’s Middle Earth where we have had years of subtle and not so subtle mantras on “queue jumpers”, “people smuggler” boatloads of terrorists, essential detention legislation to combat “closet terrorists” and the “alert but not alarmed” invocation.

Is it any wonder that finally serious violence erupts when we have an environment where fear and loathing is government endorsed?

As a senior Australian I am ashamed of my fellow Australians and ashamed of the Federal Government for actively promoting racism and intolerance to further their electoral advantage.

It is time to return to the woods with the rest of the Elves as Middle Earth is not as it once was and evil spreads under the influence of The Dark Lord.

If you are living on Macquarie Island, you might be safe, but where ever it is you live Kym, make some more room: we are on the way.

Heard a Englishman on telly the other day say "we made two colonies one we sent convicts to and one we sent the god squad to" seems you family got on the wrong boat DB, by Christ do you talk rot.
I say "jesus" when I stub my toe but I don't believe he existed or that there is a god. Australia is a secular country always has been and will always will been.
Just remember DB and coach while your try to sling mud that you have more in common with Muslim and Jewish Fundamentalist then with main stream Australia.
PS Coach you need to reread your religious sect history many early Christians did not believe in the divinity of the Jesus character in your little black book.

Part One

To Aspro - It is very interesting that you mentioned Islamics fitting better into our system in the late 1970s. Accordingly, we might ask what happened in the 1980s to cause the Islamic integration problem in the West? But has it been throughout the West? France could be immediately named as being involved, but here the problem could be different, much of it blamed on de-Gaulle’s pledge to Algerians, to those who wished, to become citizens of metropolitan France. Harold Wilson made similar promises to citizens of former British colonial possessions. However, it could be believed that much of the present Islamic resentment stems from American and British intrusion into the Middle East since WW1. Mubarak of Egypt has termed it Western intrusion and injustice. Moreover, because there is definititely much proven loyalty among the billion or more Muslims in our world, despite the historical enmity between the Shias and the Sunnis, the continuing buildup of American influence in the ME since WW2 seems to have been felt throughout most of the Islamic world, including Indonesia and Malaysia.

Propelling points toward Islamic terrorism since the 1970s:

1. Israel nuclear capability given consent by the US. The argument goes, mostly from the US, that a small nation like Israel needs nuclear rockets to preserve its identity. But it could be argued that the presence of Israeli atomic superiority among Arab nations who are refused even nuclear defence capability such as Iran must have surely helped to cause Osama bin Laden to rebel against the West. Certain elements in Saudi-Arabia, bin Laden’s home territory, besides being angry about US troops in the territory, must also surely resent Israel’s nuclear rockets waiting there at the ready. Also Israel’s well-equipped air strike force, besides deciding the outcome of the two Arab-Israeli wars, was also used to take out an Iraqi part-completed nuclear installation in 1982.

There is no country on earth where a Muslim migrant is willing to adapt to . Eventually they will take over the world, especially the way they have about three babies a year(maybe not three-it just seems that way). I've actually cut out the newspaper pictures of the Aussies returning the favour. They are framed and have pride of place on my lounge room walls. If us patriots could get rid of the scourge, then we could start on the traitors, the wiggers so willing to sell this country out. By the way why do the scourge marry their first cousins? How sick can they get. It's no wonder their IQ is about 47.

Sneekeepete aka Kym:

Most immigrants abide by our laws and honour our customs....and always have in my lifetime. They settled here before the pernicious doctrine of multiculturalism was imposed. In retrospect, I wonder if it was imposed precisely because it was obvious that some (please note that word) Muslims would not fit in and Australians had to be forced to live alongside polygamy, women in head to toe shrouds in 24 degree heat and people who instruct children that they do not have to obey Australian law if it conflicts with Islam.

Immigrants are advised that women in Australia are equal to men, but I doubt you would be welcome to say it at the mosque and it is clearly not honoured in many homes. Then there is the charming view held by some that Australian women who go out alone or wear revealing clothes are whores deserving of rape.

And the banning of ham sandwiches at state schools because Muslim kids might be offended. Australian Jews managed for centuries not to be offended when their friends ate ham and never thought to insist it be banned. Let's not get into the attempts to ban Christmas.

Criminalising speech was the next step. Racial vilification is nasty and socially unacceptable,but whatever happened to sticks and stones breaking bones but names never hurting? Australians had to be stopped from speaking critically of behaviours they find abhorrent and which break the spirit and sometimes the letter of our law.

It isn't hard to see where racial/cultural intolerance started in Australia. Meantime, Australians who complain are called racist. I wonder what people who danced in the streets on September 11,2001 should be called?

Australians want back the freedoms that were removed by repressive policy and legislation - starting with freedom of speech. It is funny that those who recently screeched so shrilly about the restrictions on comment imposed by the anti-terrorism laws are the same people who are determined to muzzle anyone who dares to voice an opinion about immigration policy.

Bushbred Part Two

2. Both Britain and America’s determination to keep most of the Middle East under what can only be termed imperial control as if the Middle East was or is still needed to be kept that way to make it a safer world. With the track records of both Britain and America regarding the oil-rich Middle-East since the end of WW1, surely it is only a very naive global public who would believe that the US / UK Angliphole Alliance would have the galle to guarantee decent democracy in Iraq at this late stage.

3. As regards Muslim migration into non- Islamic areas, while it could be said that the though the original Muslim families who migrated to Australia before the problem of Israeli nuclear capabilities mentioned above would have integrated satisfactorilly, more recent events and problems in the ME has surely caused the younger members of the migrant families to become more stirred up. Here, some of our extreme Aussie brethren could be on the ball in blaming our universities, who in actual fact do bring out the real historical truth of such matters, similar to what happens to certain of our newer generational Aborigines who attend universities.

However, if such is so, the whole of Western society, including our religious sects, have some very deep perusing to do. Thoughts like Nelson Mandela’s about forgiveness and both sides sharing the blame for the terrorist problems, and not so much following blind faith, but using that sensible balance between faith and reason, first recommended to the West by Muslim scholars, which in our Aussie lingo, only means plain commonsense.
George C, WA - Bushbred

“History Never Repeats”?

SCOUT and others are begging for answers:
>>I challenge Boaz-David, Philo, Coach, Kactuz and the other usual culprits to come up with REALISTIC solutions <<

Having watched this thread and others it’s clear that the opinions are divided. In a sense what most are trying to deal with the symptoms and not the problem.

The problem is very obvious, but the solution very complex.

We hear words like: racism, multiculturalism, thugs, Lebanese, gangs, even ‘wogs’ made a brief comeback, law enforcement, patriotism, beaches, mosques, anglos, etc…

Mostly raw emotions fuelled by the current unrest. But no real effort to seek and find the real cause of it all; and until we start to self educate ourselves about the reason for the behaviour of some community groups, namely Lebanese; and learn from past history; the situation will continue to deteriorate.

Chapter I
1. The Civil war in Lebanon 1975-1990
2. Not all Lebanese are muslims
3. Not all muslims are Lebanese
4. The conflict in Lebanon was started by muslims.
5. The Christians and others sectarians, had to rise to the challenge and defend their neighbourhoods.
6. The result was two decades of terror + lack of adequate education + diminished opportunities + constant religious intolerance + much bitterness

Chapter II
1. Some Lebanese find refuge in Australia
2. Host country soft, tolerant, lay-back, mostly unaware of Religious issues.
3. Islam becomes more visible.
4. Host country tries to be more tolerant.
5. Islam gains momentum
6. Host country tries to legalise tolerance.
7. Islam ‘in your face – this is our country’ attitude
8. Host country fails to recognise real problem.
9. Islam declares war on all non-muslim lifestyle
10. Host country had to rise to the challenge and defend their neighbourhoods.

Chapter III

D2:

Racial vilification was partially to blame for the most recent brou ha ha in Sydney; it was the words that incited the use of the sticks and the stones - and if words werent damaging we probably wouldnt have long standing laws of libel or slander.

Do go on about Christmas! the push to ban Christmas or its celebration has come as much from atheists as any one else - and if Christmas is relegated to a religious observance rather than consumer driven pig out we are probably better off any way.

And lets not assume that it is only immigrants who use the fact some women dress in alluring clothing as an excuse for sexual assault - it is and has long been an old stand excuse for Anglo thugs as well - its men.

Ask women if they feel equal now - any where. They have only had access to equal pay in the past thirty years - we should not be too chuffed at our treatment of women - sexual discrimination is only a matter of degrees.

I abhorred the dancing in the streets at the sight of the Twin Towers coming down as much as i did the incessant wooo wooos when another Allied bomb slammed into dwellings in Iraq - obscene triumphalism is not limited to immigrants -

Speech remains fairly free here: lots of vilification, lies and misinterpretation here and not much prosecution from where I sit.

I agree. There have been instances where we have failed to enforce our own rights to eat the ham and deck the halls - we still havent moved past the one dimensional view on most things and until we do half of us will always be pissed off at some one.

Sneekypete: Real democracies don't have repressive defamation laws, either and, as in the US, they have a special privilege exempting otherwise defamatory statements about public officials. NSW politicians would quake in their boots if that privilege existed here.

Words are only words. Adults in civilised society ignore juvenile taunts. The fact that a freedom celebrated by our society for hundreds of years, through many waves of immigration, had to be specifically removed for this group, indicates that the decision makers knew what we are only now discovering. Some groups do not wish to fit in. They wish us to change in order to accommodate them. At its most extreme, they wish to impose their views, up to and including vile legal systems, on us. D2

D2:
I think you gravely underestimate the power of words - words are the tools of a great many people, politicians included; after all politics is essentially war without weapons - only words.

I assume you refer to the racial/religious vilification laws when you talk about curtailment of free speech - Racial vilifacation first saw the light of day in the seventies and was withdrawn from the federal scene due to Senate opposition; NSW past the first Racial Vilificatio laws in 1989 - it was a Liberal Countrry party coalitin under Griener - WA followed at some stage in the face of activites by the Australian Nationalists - against groups other than muslims ( I assume these are those you refer to) In SA the passage of simialr laws was a bi partisan decision - the current laws have little to do with Islamism in so far as their developemnt goes - it just happens they are flavor of the month - in thirty years time I guess we as a nation might fear some on else - it seems we cant go too long with out picking on some one.

Your post suggests law makers saw this coming and for some perverse reason set up strucutres to make life easier for Muslims - you afford far to much prescience to our legislators who had these laws in the pipe line three decades ago - when it was Asians in the corss hairs of the fearfull.

Over time the notion of religious vilification has been wrapped up in parralel legislation - there's a fair amount of justification for it in these pages I would suggest

Sneekeepete: There are plenty of excuses, but no justification for curtailing freedom of speech in a democracy. Why should we cursorily dump the Voltairian tradition simply to pacify people whose demands escalate with every effort to please them? I disagree that racial vilification laws were intended to protect Asians. I don't know any Asians who thought they needed protecting, but my view would be the same anyway. Funny coincidence that Sharon's attacks on refugee camps in Southern Lebanon happened in 1982, Lebanese Muslims began arriving soon after and by the end of the decade(the time it might take to twist a few arms and stack a few branches),free speech had been canned.

Democracy demands maturity. Those whose skins are so thin they want nanny-State to stop people being nasty, need to grow up. Having said this,there is no excuse for words which incite hatred or violence and cause fear, which amounts to assault. We already had adequate assault laws, but some very precious people insisted on special laws, perhaps for those to whom they were indebted? Special legislation for any group is a marker of authoritarian societies and the silence from Leftish academe was deafening. Why?

Funny how those who scream loudest against John Howard's laws banning speech inciting terrorism, see nothing wrong with pre-Howard laws banning speech which might merely offend or insult people. Tragic for Australia.

In my view you can trace the emergence of (unusual) Australian antagonism to immigrants directly to the perception that people were being gagged to stop them objecting to an immigration policy they didn't want and about which they were never asked. D2.

FH,

”I really don’t understand what you are trying to say. When I commented that terrorists target Muslims you strongly disagreed, then you sent me a link to this article about civil war in Algeria which confirms my view and proves you wrong!. Please explain!

http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr90/falgeria1992.htm ”

To explain, I was having a go at you over misinformation, unproven and unprovable claims of war atrocities.

“FH: Not in Australia, but Bosnia 1996, Orthodox Christians (Lead by an Orthodox Priest) killed 8,000 Muslim women and children, cut off two fingers of each hand (babies were not spared) so they meet Jesus with “Trinity” fingers. I have not seen any condemnation and the Pope said : “we are all Christians”, should I assume he included those criminals as well?”
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 4:16:49 PM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3860

I read the links FH provided, at Mr.P.Pigs request for validation:
http://www3.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/updates/9602/07/
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/der-ii020703e.htm
http://www.irct.net/torture_journal/Torture-2.pdf
There are NO 8000 fingerless victims! There were 3000 victims who kept their fingers… The atrocities in the link are in 1992 not 96 as FH claims.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856 ”

If you can’t understand the problem with the above after all this time then sadly there is no hope for your honour or credibility.

I disagreed muslims kill muslims? No I didn’t. … I know muslims kill almost everyone.

As I said here:
” FH,
I posted the link, I know muslims kill muslims, x-muslims and non-muslims, and the whole lot sucks.
Posted by meredith, Monday, 5 December 2005 3:20:12 PM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856 ”

A reminder yet again to check your sources before you post …

Anyway I’ve had enough of this babble, I feel you and I have made my point over and over very well thank you for your display of muslim moderate behaviour.

Meredith (s),

In the previous discussion you were referring to (which was almost a month ago now), I was giving an example that atrocities were committed in the name of other religions including recently by some who follow the Christian faith.

1. There was 8,000 Muslims murdered for no reason but being muslims:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/print/1,1442,600147511,00.html
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-7-11/30214.html
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-10/21/article26.shtml
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/12/content_459420.htm

2. Their bodies were mutilated:
Here is a link to an article by Grace Halsell who served as a speech writer in the White House for President Johnson.
http://muslimsonline.com/babri/halsell1.htm
here is another article that talks about missing noses and ears:
http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/2nd.html

3. The murderers were blessed by a senior Orthodox priest (ie in service priest and not an outcast or rebel). Only after the video tape was revealed on 12th June 05 that the Orthodox Church condemned the killings (10 years later).

http://www.witness.org/forum/index.php/topic,85.0.html

4. To-date I did not see a comment from the pope rejecting the Orthodox Church massacre, on the contrary, I see his comments calling for ‘unity’ with the very same sect.

5. I do accept that murderers have nothing to do with religion and to be fair, I am not expecting him or other followers of the Christian faith to apologise for atrocities. My question was to why do you expect Muslims to be apologetic?

Why are you in denial about above facts? Or is it you were taught to believe that atrocities happens exclusively by Muslims?

F.H.

I accept the reality of the massacre per se... 8000 approx, but mostly men and boys. (we saw the women/children being separated from the men on TV) I just can't find the reference in any of those links to the 'fingers cut off'... can you be more specific ?

I remind you of the Book of Jihad which includes the "Permissability for killing women and chilren during night raids as long as it is not deliberate" Book 019, Number 4321

So, its a bit rich to apply a standard of behavior during war to the Serbs, which is actually part of Islamic teaching anyway, yet condemn the Serbs for in reality acting as 'obedient muslims'. It was war, they killed mostly the men at Srebreniza, as per Islamic teaching on Jihad.
But I cannot find any justification at all in the New Testament (the fulfillment of the Old) for such actions, so I can describe it as 'un'Christian easily, though not 'un-Islamic'

...and the circle continues :)

Anyway,..can you give chapter and verse for the fingers cut off bit ?
Thanx
Have a nice Christmas.

p.s. Don't go to Cronulla for a few weeks.

Fellow Human,

The last post of yours above bought it all back to me, I have heard this stuff before.

From the vaults:

"I have detailed information about the situation . . . which completely proves that what they allege are illusions . . . They lie every day."

And this one seems particularly apt:

"We have destroyed 50 tanks today. That 5-ohhh tanks" [while holding up his fingers]"

My personal favourite:

"They think we are retarded - they are retarded."

All quotes immortalised by Baghdad Bob, the Iraqi Information Minister. Did you do a stint there during you extensive and sensitive overseas postings by any chance?

For anyone else interested in some amusing bald faced lies.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

MPP,

So anything you don't like or don't want to believe is a "lie".
"The truth" and "credible" news is only what confirms your views of the world.

Why can't you just explain your opinions while respecting that other people see truth in something else?

D2 We may be a cross purposes _ I didnt suggesst we set up RVLegislation re the Asians - it was that they were the rednecks whippng boy at the time - I tohught it was you who implied the RV laws were established to protect the muslims.

If the old laws against the incitement of hatred and violence where adequate we would not have the new ones.

What's wrong with special legislation? pollies have it re their superannuation and parliamentary privelege, it is a feature of the IR laws, the tax act is full a special considerations - there are some who loose sleep because in some jurisdictions there are Women only nights at local swimming pools - that's special law but wont bring about the end opf the world as we know it.

Life is full of inconsistencies;

And as for asking the people about immigration or any thing for that matter - there is a political process - it is that process that the so called silent majority - whoever or what ever the hell they or that is - can get involved in.

We weren't asked about the War in Iraq, Tampa, excising tracts of land from our boundaries to isolate refugees, floating the dollar, compensation packages for the dairy, suger or fishing industries - if we insisted on being consulted on every detail we'd still be a bunch of colonies - the only way to know or to have a say is by getting involved.

Who gagged who over the immigaration debate? I recall a great kerfuffle over G Blaineys comments in the 80's letters where exchanged in newspapers many agreed many did not

Sneekeepete:
It was "necessary". Who decided? Of course Parliaments made the laws, but who wanted them and why? Free speech is a pillar of freedom. It isn't in the category of more or less taxes. Why was the debate conducted in academia but not in the daily newspapers? Why was it suddenly necessary except to silence those who would not agree to the rapid, organised destruction of the culture on which Australia is based. That is Anglo-Celtic. Those freedoms are the source of Western wealth and happiness that made us the envy of the world. Cultures that came in the mass migrations of the 20th Century are valuable, but not foundational.

We can now be fined or jailed for expressing views that might be unpopular,annoying or even insulting to others. Critical analysis of any culture (other than Anglo-Celtic),any religion other than Christianity, is forbidden, exceptions only for academics and religious discussion. Warning: don't take the religious exception seriously without studying the Victorian Catch the Fire Ministries judgment and the so-called vilifying statements complained of by Muslim clerics.

Freedom of speech is not negotiable if you value Australia as we knew it. When people may not speak their doubts or objections, eventually they will act on them. That is where this debate began - at Cronulla.
Merry Christmas. D2