To Kalweb. I did not say I did not like it. It is just that the girls kept coming back for more whenever there was no adult around to catch us. I was getting scared of being caught and I kept telling the girls that if they did not cut it out, then I would dob them in.

When I eventually told my mum, she was outraged and had a row with one of the girls mothers. This woman told my mum that it was no big deal. To her, it was just normal kiddie behaviour. What you do not seem to understand is that many parents feel entirely different about sexual matters than others. As a man in his early twenties, I went to a mates house where I was openly propositioned by my mate's mother, not only in front of my mate, but in front of the woman's ten year old daughter.

I went to my local video shop one day, and a boy of about ten or twelve was standing beside me looking at the displayed video's . His very expensively dressed mother walked back from the "Adult" section and said to him "Here is that porno movie you wanted with Pamela Andrson in it, Tommy."

In another incident, a 15 year old girl from an exceedingly rich family (you should have seen how big their yacht was) marched right up to me and said that she wanted to "pick me up". This was while I was in the main entertainment area at Dunk Island Resort with her parents only feet away. . When I laughed and declined the invitation, the girl's mother, (who I knew was in earshot), said "Don't waste your time with him, I would go for the singer in the band."

Maximus must have had a sheltered life.

Very interesting thread still...

Interesting the Maximus noted "Maybe the women who post here aren't your usual sample of women."

One can make the same assumption about the type of men that post here.

But why?

I find many of the male and female posts to be valid and of interest. To start casting aspersions is not progressing the debate.

Unwanted sexual advances can range from the merely irritating (cat-calls when walking down street) to the threatening - forced sexual conduct.

I have to note that many people are often confused as to what constitutes sexual interest. For example I am frequently bemused that a smile, politeness or simply being friendly has made some of us the object of pursuit.

I acknowledge Kay's contribution that paedophiles can and do 'groom' young children.

However, I believe that sexuality is an innate part of being human and whether consciously projected or not - the responsibility (as many have pointed out) remains with the adult.

It is also the responsibility of the adult to ensure that our young people have sufficient self-esteem and not be coerced by others whether they be the same age or much older.

The buck stops with us.
(Play on words intended)

redneck, judging by your posts I have had a pretty sheltered life too, something I think I'm fairly pleased about. You do make a good point about different families having different standards, one of the reasons the law draws a line in the sand by specifying an age of consent. Some families may choose to encourage their children to disregard the law, others may do the best they can with the knowledge that a child is engaging in sexual activity by trying to minimise the risks (access to contraception etc). Somewhere in that last issue is the problem we face when we deal with the difference between tolerance and endorsement. At what point does cooperating with the knowledge that a particular child will do everything in their power to have sexual relationships become endorsement for that?
I'm not offering up answers to that, I think we all have to do the best we can with the situations we face. The line in the sand gives society a means to deal with some of the worst situations, probably not much more.

R0bert

I feel my post about the Book Club women was misinterpreted, few of those women related childhood sexual abuse, most of it was adult - as it was with me, or at least post-pubescent. My oldest daughter has already experienced a frightening (at 15) but thankfully minor episode of molesting by a boy a little older than she was. She was so terrified, she began to faint, and thank the lord, this terrified the boy and he ran away. I wanted to tell the boy's school, because he obviously has a serious problem and needs help, but she would not let me and I had to respect her wishes, however reluctantly.

This is part of the problem, the stigma surrounding what I suspect is an extremely common female experience (sorry Maximus, I hardly know a woman who hasn't had some incidence of unwanted sexual touching that goes beyond a pinch on the bum), keeps it hidden and so allows it to go on. That boy will probably repeat his behaviour with other girls, for example. That's why people like Barbara Biggs are so courageous and important, they tell us a truth about ourselves we have avoided hearing for centuries. They shine much needed light into darkness.

To Robert.

I generally agree with the age of consent laws, because a line has to be drawn somewhere and 16 is not unreasonable. But I come from a socio economic group where juvenile sexual behaviour was common by age 14 for girls, and the girls themselves thought that the law was a joke.

Barbara Biggs wants to protect young girls from the sexual predations of boys and men and that is most definitely a noble cause. But she has stated that "12 year old girls do not come on to men". I am sorry, but I can not entirely agree with that. In my own experience,very young girls most definitely do come onto young boys. By 13, some girls are trying out the effects of their budding charms on men that they trust. And by 14, some of them are having sex, not only with boys but with older men.

We as a society can hardly condemn this behaviour if we tacitly endorse it through movies such as "Lolita", "Quiet Days in Clichy" or "13". Nor can we condemn it if we allow our young children to be exposed to a procession of rock video's where a bunch of rock stars sing songs, complete with blatent sexual images, that endorse the concept of underage sex.

Finally, it appears to me that the ideal female body shape for high fashion is now the "adolescent look." Supermodels today look like adolescents with long legs and thin bodies. Even Claudia Schiffer admitted that supermodels are "freaks". Kate Moss was renowned for her adolescent looks and even women's magazines like Cleo and Cosmopolitan are using 14 and 15 year old girls on their covers.

Society disapproves of underage sex yet we tacitly support it.

redneck, unless I've missed something I'm 100% in agreement with your last post (are you OK with that?). You've seen my reasons for thinking the lies about kids initiating sexual advances (at whatever level) do harm to all of us, the kids included.

Somewhere there is a balance that accepts the fact that kids do want to learn about their developing sexuality, that some will come to it earlier than others or be more interested (obsessed) than others. I doubt that the close your eyes and hope it goes away approach is any help to kids to get through it. Part of our job is to help keep kids safe from predatory adults through that process as well as some help with the the normal risks associated with intimacy (broken hearts, unwanted babies, disease, gossip etc).

I think we still have a lot to learn about how to help kids through the storm of the teenage years - to many moralists trying to obscure the debate with BS to promote their own personal preferences for peoples behaviour. That has a familiar feel to it.

Have a great Christmas
R0bert