Dear Ms Biggs.

I am a man raised in a Housing Commission area and I can not entirely agree with your statement that 12 year old girls do not initiate sexual contact with older boys or men.

My sexual career began at the age of 10, when I was damned near raped by two 10 year old girls who initiated sexual contact. In my former life as a bikie living in doss houses, I have had two occasions where 14 year old girls who fancied me simply strolled into my room and got into bed with me.

It has been my experience that young girls can be very curious about sex and may prefer to initiate low level sexual encounters, either for fun or to satisfy their own curiosity, with older men that they trust rather than with local boys who may blab to everybody in the neighbourhood of their experience. This idea was reinforced recently when the 13 year old daughter of my best friend summoned me to the family house on a pretext. The girl greeted me at the door in her underwear, the rest of her family had left for an outing, and she asked me if I would like to stay while she cooked some breakfast.

The problem of under age sexual behaviour I predict will increase for four reasons. Firstly, girls today are approaching mensus at aged 10 or 11, and the hormonal instincts of some of them will be seeking fulfillment.

Secondly, children today are exposed to a wealth of openly pornographic material and a plethora of peep show images which may excite them. Shows like Big Brother or female pop stars sexually gyrating in music video’s dressed as schoolgirls is now common.

Thirdly, the idea of adolecent girls as sexual partners is being culturally approved by movies such as "13" or "Lolita."

Fourthly, preteen fashions have now become very sexual. President Bush’s wife once said that she would like to “shoot Britney Spears.” I think that such action may have done more good for the world than the US invasion of Iraq.

For once I agree with you Redneck.

I am a 26 year old male and have recently been pursued by a 13 year old girl.

She was one of these girls who was very popular with the boys her age and dressed very slutty like.

I had told her many times that she was too young would bluntly reffer to her as jail bait. One night, when I was very drunk, she straddled me and started undoing my jeans. Needless to say, I threw her off and left.

That being said, it is the responsibility of the older male to just say "NO".

Redneck, Space Cadet and R0bert all agreeing on something - thats kind of scary :)

Redneck, I think your comments about young girls initiating low level sexual contact is spot on. It is a time of experimentation for many and older men may add a dimension for them that is not there with kids their own age. Same for young guys just the social issues are treated differently.

Space Cadet - to paraphrase your comment "it is the responsibility of the adult to say no".

Those who insist that the child will never initiate sexual contact are living with a delusional view of childhood. A delusion which does not address the real issues. About as realistic as those who think denying access to contraceptive devices will stop teenage sexual activity.

Kids need to be helped through this difficult period with care and gentleness by the adults around them. My son is still young enough that I expect to have some years yet before sexual experimentation is an issue for him. I want to be able to equip him with the tools to go through those times in a way that does not hurt himself or anybody else and to protect him from predators.

R0bert

How bizzare,

I once worked as an administrative assistant in a primary school, and had the unfortunate experience of being virtually stalked by a 13 year old girl (I was 19), because I had made the heinious error of judgment of talking to her (appropriately) when she came to the office.

This went on for three months, with me having to ensure that at no time was I in a position that I was ever caught anywhere alone by this person, for even if the situation were totatlly innocent, it would be my word against hers. In the end this caused me to resign for fear that despite my not having done, or even considered doing anything innapropriate, I was forced to be eternally vigilant, and wary of any encounter whatever, with this person.

Please do not misunderstand me, I do support the imposition of major sentences for child sexual abuse, however the perception that juvenile females (and males) do not instigate such behaviour is dangerous, and extremely predjudical to such offenders. However, recidivism should attract life without parole, as repeat offenders in this class of offences seem to reoffend quite regularly.

Hot topic this Barbara. How many people have actually read Lolita. Nabokov's controversial novel clearly shows the damage child sexual abuse causes. The story unfolds to show lolita's life is irreprably damaged by Humbert's selfish abuse. The novel is a masterpiece of psychology depicting the lies and games Humbert uses to manipulate Loita's mother and Lolita, and examines Humbert's denial. It describes Humbert's suffercating imprisonment of Lolita during her formative teenage years and the effect that has on her development. I can't comment on the films except to add that Romeo and Juliet were 12/13 years old in Shakespeares classic but have never been depicted this age in film due to censorship. Lolita is no different. Film makers have to twist the written art to fit the censor. To my mind we seem too imature as a society to deal with these issues with any real understanding and only lash out with hate cruelty and violence, the symptoms of fear.
Barfenzie

Come on girls, we know you are out there. Are we all just male chauvanist pigs fanticising over schoolgirl behaviour or do you agree that we have a point?

On the subject of the 13 year old who met me at the door in her underwear, I made my excuses and left immediately. But the young lassie was not through with me yet. Every time I went to her family home when it was hot, she would immediately disappear into her bedroom and emerge in a bikini. After diving into her parent's swimming pool and splashing around for a while, she would emerge all wet and go inside. She would then parade around in front of me in her bikini while her mother amd father were present in the room. Her father and mother pretended not to notice anything remiss and never told her to put some clothes on.

This was very embarrasing to me and I simply stopped going to see my friend on hot days.

Fortunately, she has now grown out of her "let's turn on redneck" routine. But I have witnessed similar behaviour with other young girls and I presume that it is normal adolescent behaviour.

It is easy to see how men who are very attracted to very young girls and who have little self control can take advantage of these situations. And I can understand how reprehensible it is for grown men to set out to deliberately seduce young girls. But I think that there is another side to the coin. I can not entirely agree that young girls can not be considered entirely innocent of deliberately encouraging the sexual attentions of older men.

All above, all too true.

If you're an older man going to your kid's secondary school's public activities - award giving nights and the like - just check out the "come-on" looks from the no end of little tarts, exercising and practising their new found sex powers. And why these schools permit these girls to wear makeup at these events I have no idea.

It's really quite funny seeing these little girls trying to turn it on. As an adult man, their juvenile, corny and exaggerated behaviours I find harmless and very amusing. A good laugh and an insight into what sort of women they're going to turn out to be. But then, given that some men might be gullible and inexperienced at dealing with teenagers and this sort of young girls' experimentation, they might be led into believing that they are being shown signs of genuine affection. It might lead them down a very dangerous and highly illegal path.

Old saying - "Those who light the wick, shouldn't be surprised when the cracker goes bang."

More education and respect required all round for everybody, as well as the introduction of EOC sexual harassment legislation to protect gullible old men from predatory teenage girls.

All fascinating and interesting posts guys. I thought back to when I was 12 - I never found older men at all attractive. However I was aware of boys and I was aware that I wanted to be thought attractive. I believe that many young girls are more 'testing the water' than wanting to actually dive in completely.

This is where it behoves men to behave as Space Cadet, R0bert and others have stated with a great deal of care. The same applies to boys as well - I have had and still have young boys from the neighbourhood visit me on a variety of pretexts - it is quite touching and amusing to watch as they try to be what they consider macho.

As adults we have the responsibilty to ensure that we raise our boys and girls to have a healthy respect for themselves and each other. Paedophilia is a predatory behaviour and quite rightly is a crime.

It is sad how the media tempts children to rush headlong in adult hood way too soon. We spend so much of our lives as adults - we owe it to our children to preserve their innocence and not to betray them by taking advantage of their awakening sexuality.

this conversation has provoked really interesting reactions, i think. i think that girls probably do flirt with older men - and get crushes on them. however, that can not justify the abuse of that position by anyone - male or female. a 12 year old girl is still a child. she still has a romantic belief of what affection is, and what it is like. the things that little girls are chasing when they flirt with older men is not the same thing that men desire.

the argument that a little girl is asking for it because she flirts with an older man (whilst not really knowing what she is doing - because sometimes the possibilities do not even occur to someone if they are unaware that something beyond their experience even exists) is reprehensible. and can only be likened to the argument that anyone who is raped is asking for it. and that is a terrible view - especially if, as it seems here, it still pervades.

i have read lolita, and think that it is a magnificent book - in its beauty and horror. never should we forget that children are young, and inexperienced and that they do not think as adults do. a child thinks as a child - she does not think sex is about the reality of the physical - she thinks of it as the embodiment of all her romantic dreams. and that is not the case. don't ever let those dreams be destroyed in children.

s

Scout, Suze, this is probably me just being overly sensitive to gender issues - if so please excuse me. Don't forget that this in not always an older man, child thing. There has been a fair bit of coverage recently in the media (too much of it favourable) about the female school teacher who had and affair with a male teenage student.

There have been enough other similar cases that they cannot be ignored when discussing the issue. The issue of the child "asking for it" was a significant factor in the coverage of the case I am thinking of.

I've heard of an instance in NZ (but can't prove it) where a teenage boy is reported to have to pay child support to an adult women.

R0bert

R0bert, you are correct that the predator is not always an older man. I acknowledge that there have been instances of older woman/young boy. However, it is at a lower rate than for older men.

The point I tried to make was that our children (girls AND boys) need to be provided with postive support while exploring their sexuality and at the same time protected from all (male/female) who would exploit them.

I am sure that if I had been encouraged with positive role models and had developed a greater self esteem than I had way back then I would have chosen my sexual partners more wisely.

I aim to be a rock of support for my niece and nephew - and their champion if any tried to hurt them.

Cheers

Dianne

Dianne/Scout (which do you prefer online?) Totally agree. Thanks. I'm probably a bit over sensitive on some of these issues because they are so often misrepresented and then used to justify discrimination against men that have not done the wrong thing.

I think inaccurate perceptions about child sexual abuse make things harder for single dads and their kids and impact on other ways.

I saw a claim recently that Qantas won't allow an adult male to sit next to an unaccompanied child on a flight. Easy to see why they might do so but I personally would find it to be very embarrasing and annoying to be asked to change seats on that basis.

I have not seen Australian stats on the rate of child sexual abuse. A book I've refered to before by feminist author Patricia Pearson - "When She Was Bad" makes the claim that in the US women commit about a quarter of child sexual abuse. If she is correct then men are responsible for the bulk of child sexual abuse but not so much that the issue can't be helped by ensuring that people are aware that it's not just men.

Cheers
R0bert

R0bert - quite happy with 'Scout' actually.

Its sad when men don't feel they can interact naturally with children because of the perception of paedophilia. I love seeing dads with their kids - we really need some kind of an awareness program. I am trying to think of something. How to protect our kids and at the same time not have decent men persecuted - tough one isn't it?

Cheers

Maximus, Redneck, Space Cadet, Aaron and R0bert, thank goodness you are all sensible men able to properly deal with any approach by an underage girl. Ditto Scout re underage boys.

However, there are some men (and women) that take advantage. Those men (and women) are pedophiles. What they do is wrong. It doesn't matter whether they think the girl or the boy was "asking for it" or "dressing inappropriately" or "teasing" or "ripe for their age", for an adult to have sex with a person under the age of 16 is wrong and, literally, criminal.

Don't give these men (and women) any excuse. If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. And that's what Barbara's article is really about - how pedophiles use the "but he/she initiated it or wanted it" excuse and society colludes. This argument, as Suse rightly points out, is reprehensible. Society's collusion is also reprehensible.

We-e-e-e-ll, I don't know about that, Pedant. I do not see much wrong with older females giving much appreciated instruction to eager young boys, myself. But then again I am prejudiced, because I went to a boy's school where the drop dead gorgeous and absolutely scrumptious Miss McKim was our art teacher.

I guarantee you that there was not a boy in all of Form 9 who was not having pleasant little fantasies about Miss McKim. I always wondered if she was aware how high the hem of her micro miniskirts used to rise when she turned around and reached up high on the blackboard to write something? But one thing was certain, it was guaranteed to instantly silence an entire class full of ranbuctious 15 year old schoolboys. My eyes used to pop out like saucepan lids.

So men seducing under age girls, yes, that is bad. But older women seducing schoolboys? Well, maybe not so bad. Especially if the offender looks like Miss McKim.

Redneck, I hope you don't take umbrage at my comments here, but when you say, "I do not see much wrong with older females giving much appreciated instruction to eager young boys, myself", then that's a point of view that is antiquated and very wrong for boys of today. The world and more especially, the law has moved on. It isn't quite as simple as that any more.

Women who participate in sex with minor boys are now criminals. In fact I'd go further to suggest that they're psychologically unbalanced and there are a lot more of them than most might think. And they're your children's teachers. But these are exactly the sorts of women, who, should they become pregnant by the boy, are very likely to carry the foetus to birth through some misguided love. These women are unhinged. Then as RObert has pointed out above, the boy - 12 or so years old - is then liable to pay child support to raise the baby even though technically he's been a victim of rape. He will have to do this for the next 18 years of his life or even more.

The law and, dare I say, yourself have an enormous amount of unresolved double standards that have come out of the social norms of yore, but have now become gross social injustices. The picture isn't quite as rosy or simple as you paint it.

Check this -

The Times
Courts get tough on women who have sex with boys
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1898507,00.html

And courts should get tough on women like this - but of course they don't, because the judges just can't bring themselves to believe that the princess (woman) and monster (man) stereotypes don't exist anymore and in many cases it's the woman who's the monster.

The laws have changed and they haven't made being a man any easier. In fact they've often made life almost unbearable. If the laws haven't affected you yet, then count yourself lucky. The chances are they will - sooner or later. Let's just hope it doesn't happen to your son.

Maximus, I'm not certain that the same child support issue applies in Australia. I recall hearing at the time I heard about the instance I mentioned that Australia may be different. Great post though.

Pedant, I hope I'm speaking for most (clearly not Redneck) of the afore-mentioned posters in saying that I don't believe that a child initiating the contact should be a defence. I do believe that the claim that children never try and initiate sexual contact is seriously flawed and does not help our understanding of and dealing with this issue. I do agree with Redneck in that a lot of teenage boys (myself included) when I was growing up would have welcomed adult female sexual interest. As previously stated the responsibility still rests with the adult to deal with that appropriately. I must say the adult women I knew were amazingly restrained and managed to resist my obvious charms.

Scout, how to move forward.
First I'd like to see some unbiased statistics. The material I've seen is all over the place. Some groups seem to think that about 200% of kids are sexually abused before they are conceived (I exagerate slightly), Queensland Abused Child Trust puts the figure at about 7% of all substantiated abuse and neglect incidents.
Then some kind of breakdown in regard as to who is doing it (I gather biological parents are a very small proportion with step parents and family friends being the bulk of the perpetrators). I'd also like to see some indication of the seriousness of incidents. I might start world war three with this and that is not my intent but I'd be a lot more concerned if my son was physically abused than if some pervert took a picture of him at the beach and shared it with other peodphiles. Both are wrong but one is more likely do a lot more harm to the child. I suspect we need people to be "alert but not alarmed" (where have I heard that before?).

Rober

Well Redneck, first of all you say, "My sexual career began at the age of 10, when I was damned near raped by two 10 year old girls who initiated sexual contact" and then you say you, "do not see much wrong with older females giving much appreciated instruction to eager young boys". Clearly you didn't appreciate "instruction" by the girls.

The things you say are similar to what pedophiles (male and female) say along with "the child was eager" argument - they say they are "helping" the child by instructing them in sex. I know a pedophile (now in jail for life) and that was his argument when abusing girls from the ages of 3 months old to 13 - "it didn't hurt them and he was, in fact, helping them by instructing them in sex". That is a reprehensible argument.

Perhaps this will scare R0bert regarding his son, but that is what organisations like NAMBLA say - eight year old boys love being initiated into anal sex and it's the responsibility of older men to give these eager boys much appreciated instruction. So by your argument if it's okay for older women to initiate boys isn't it okay for older men to initiate boys? [of course not!]

I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong, but homosexual pedophilia (be it man to boy or woman to girl) is wrong and so is heterosexual pedophilia (be it woman to boy or man to girl).

Pedant, please try reading my post again. At no stage have I suggested that it is OK for any adult to initiate a child into sex. One of my concerns is the very double standard which treats female paedophiles more leniently than male ones.

What I did do was admit that as a teenager I though female sexual involvement would have been good. Part of the reason that adults make the rules for children is that often children they are not able to make good decisions for themselves. If my son had the choice most of his life would be video games and DVD's, as one of his adult carers I try and manage those activities so that they are in balance with physical activity and games which involve interacting with other kids etc. Likewise his diet involves other food groups than Ice Cream and Pizza.

There is a massive difference between acknowledging that children might desire something and suggesting that it is OK or good for them.

Maybe a good reread of all the posts might be useful as you seem to be really missing the point. I'm not sure how serious Redneck is with his posts (but if he ever gets a sex change operation I don't want him teaching my son) but all of the rest of us are speaking out against adult/child sexual interaction. Some of us are making a point about the lie that says children never initiate it - very different to condoning it.

R0bert

I did not appreciate the attentions of the two ten year old girls, Pedant. I told my mother who had a blazing row with one of the girls mothers.

But by the time I was 15 it was another story. Miss McKim had a body that a supermodel would throw up her last dinner for, and she wore outfits which would make Paris Hilton blush. If she had sexually assaulted me I would not have minded one bit, and I could not have given a damn about the law. I can truthfully say that there was not a boy in the entire year 9 form who did not feel exactly the same way.

What you are implying is that if it is reprehensible for men to seduce under age girls, then it must be the same for women seducing under age boys. Sorry mate, after seeing Miss McKim, I can not agree with that. And if you are male I am surprised that you would even say it. Even the courts can see the difference. Women get much more lenient sentences than men for exactly the same offence.

Sexually mature males will usually enthusiastically bonk any obliging female of suitable breeding material that they can get their grubby hands upon. But women's sexuality is traditionally much more discerning. Because women are the ones left holding the baby. Our laws reflect this difference. This difference can be seen in western sexual terms. Promiscuous men are "studs" while promiscuous women are "sluts".

I have always thought this was very unfair. Personaly, I like sluts.

In days of olde
When knights were bolde
And women had not been invented
The men drilled holes
In telegraph poles
To keep themselves contented.

1.
Maximus I agree that women abusing boys is completely wrong. However, in a previous post you (maybe as a joke?) advocate sexual harassment legislation to protect gullible old men from predatory teenage girls. Do you also advocate sexual harassment legislation to protect gullible old women from predatory teenage boys? There are many "double standards" in society including the "she must have wanted it by wearing a short skirt" argument - I've never heard the "the man had stubbies on with his 'plumbers' crack showing so he must have been asking for male-to-male anal sex" argument. If I did hear it I would still say that it was wrong but it's instructive of society that I don't hear it. Probably the worst thing I have ever heard is "if a wife won't give her husband enough sex it's okay for him to have sex with their daughters and it's the wife's fault". Don't get me wrong - this situation could equally apply to a woman whose husband wouldn't have sex with her so she went on to abuse her son and this would be her fault not her husband's - it's just that I have never heard anyone say the latter thing whereas I have (unfortunately) heard the former a few times.

R0bert I read your post again. And I agree that at no stage did you suggest that it is OK for any adult to initiate a child into sex. Then I read my post again and I can't see that I have said anywhere that you say this. The only poster who said this is Redneck he is the only poster that I have said has said this (getting confusing now!). I did not say this about you. I agree that the double standard which treats female paedophiles more leniently than male ones is bad, and it's not helped by comments from Redneck and yourself that you would have welcomed an older woman having sex with you (at least you acknowledge that it is wrong, which Redneck doesn't).

Hi Pedant,

I have no problem with your posts, although, not surprisingly, I do find them to be somewhat pedantic.

In answer to your question - "Do you also advocate sexual harassment legislation to protect gullible old women from predatory teenage boys?". I do not have to advocate for such legislation because it already exists - for any woman at any age. The law is blatantly sexist. No such legislation exists to protect men or boys, according to the EOC - I can provide evidence.

My point is that young women, even 12 year-old girls need to be educated to understand the serious ramifications of playful sexual behaviour. Sexual tomfoolery is normal for all pubescent kids, but teenage girls seem to be given a green light by society today to do as they please, without being taught that it can have very serious consequences.

Playing with sex is like playing with firearms. Adolescents can learn how, but they need serious discipline and adult supervision whilst doing so. It can go very wrong, very quickly. This goes for both boys and girls.

What I find disappointing is that society, the legislature, and the judiciary each appears to have such a diverse and inconsistent set of values about the matter. So where's the justice of that?

What social standards can be drawn and what guidance does it give parents, teachers and the poor kids themselves?

That's what I wish to illuminate in my posted opinions. Perhaps I fail to do so.

I have to agree with Redneck - again.

There were a couple of teachers/friend's mothers who I would have loved a couple of lessons from ;-). Even as young as 13. If it had happened, I would have worn it as a badge of honour.

If a young girl looks for it at that age, it's probably more of a childish, misguided desire for her new-found romantic desires or the lack of a male figure in her life (Now that I think about it, the girl who jumped me had no male role-model in her life).

But when it comes to young males, well... I think boys from a young age just have this urge to f... I mean... keep the human race going. Like with animals, I think the male ability to sometimes distance "The Act" with emotions has a great deal to do with the fact that boys are less likely to be traumatised but such an incident. Unlike a young girl, I'd doubt that most males in their older years, would look back in absolute horror.

Occasionally you'll hear about a pair of hysterical parents fighting to imprison the older woman who raped their 14 year old boy - meanwhile he's bragging about it to his friends and skipping around the place with a bounce in his step and a grin that can't be removed. But I can see where the parents are coming from. The younger boy's new-found urge doesn't mean he's ready. I also think that an older woman who pursues a boy must have some psychological problems - and vice versa.

Pedant, it appears that I have incorrectly read your meaning. I'm assuming that the paragraph where you refered to myself and my son was primarily directed ar Redneck. Sorry for biting on that.

I think the view that kids never initiate sexual contact is quite damaging. Apart from a general preference for truth (stay out of this MPP) I have some thoughts on possible consequences of pretending that it is never something kids want
- kids who do experience an interest in adult sexuality might think they are abnormal rather than accepting that this is just a part of growing up. Maybe even be more likely to follow through if they think their interest is special.
- kids who do something about it may either get excessive guilt or develop the view that they are never responsible for the consequences of their actions. I'm not happy with the wording of that last bit, I'll try and think how to phrase it better. I don't want kids blamed when the adult does not act responsibly.
- adults with a sexual interest in kids may find more justification with the view that that their circumstance is really unusual. A special love which the child wanted as well etc.

This list is not exhaustive or conclusive but I do think the pretence that kids are never involved in initiating low level sexual activity with adults is damaging to all concerned and may put kids more at risk for a variety of reasons.

I'm interested in why you seem so opposed to being up front about this aspect of the issue. The only reason I can think of is that it becomes easy to move into blaming kids.

R0bert

Great post, R0bert.

I agree that children can initiate sex - really its more about flirting, flexing their newly awakened hormones. Where we must take care is not to take advantage of them - no matter how tempting (Redneck). They need encouragement and support - not sexual 'training' as some paedophiles might see it.

We all know that our infatuations at this age rarely hold true when we reach adulthood. However, sexual predators try to take advantage of the ease with which children develop infatuations.

Overall, the tenor of this thread is very responsible and thoughtful. Barbara has certainly raised an important issue and I hope she reads these comments.

Cheers

Super thanks R0bert :-) I realise that you (and everyone else except Redneck and Space Cadet in the situation of women pedophiles who they seem to think are "cool") are speaking out against adult/child interaction. And I understand your point about "the lie that says children never initiate it - very different to condoning it" and I agree. My point is not that children never initiate anything but is pedophiles use the "but the child initiated it" excuse [copout] and society is complicit e.g. in partially blaming the child and giving lower sentences.

Maximus - guilty as charged re pedantry and I have no problem with your posts either, just some of the things in them seem inconsistent. I agree that the application of the law to males and females is often inconsistent and that is wrong. But it seems to me that you yourself differentiate between girls and boys. You propose that girls should be taught "the serious ramifications of sexual behaviour" - how about teaching the adults (male and female) that it doesn't matter what a person wears or how they behave that it is wrong to have sex with them without their legal consent and that a person under 16 cannot give legal consent? This is exactly what Barbara's article is about - society colludes in saying that it's a girl's fault if an older man abuses her because she initiated it with her sexual behaviour so she deserves the serious ramifications. And what about boys - do you think they should be taught the "serious ramifications" about running around without a shirt on or wearing short shorts because they might invite a male homosexual pedophile to sexually abuse them? Do you see how your argument blames the child? Hmmm difficult to see how you could have "adult supervision" of sex but the thought of a "firing range" brings a smirk.

Redneck I feel sorry that you had a terrible sexual experience while young and I give you credit for sensibly dealing with approaches from an underage girl also I agree there's nothing wrong with "studs/sluts" - provided you are talking about adults. But I think you're still wrong regarding it being okay for a female teacher to have sex with a young male student even if the young male student "wanted it". And Space Cadet I think you're wrong too.

Don't you see that your arguments are used by male pedophiles who abuse both boys and girls? They say that the child "wanted it" so it was okay. If you're going to give an exception to a female pedophile abusing a boy don't you see that male pedophiles will jump on that and use it as an excuse? If women get much more lenient sentences than men for exactly the same offence then IMHO that's wrong - I hope you're not saying that because female pedophiles get lenient sentences then male pedophiles should get lenient sentences. If I had a son I would be appalled if an older woman sexually abused him.

And Scout yes I definitely agree that there are not enough hugs going around.

Scout, Pedant thanks for your comments.

Scout just in case there is any confusion my use of the term "Low Level Sexual Contact" means to me what I'm assuming you mean when you talk about flirting and flexing their newly awakened sexual hormones. I think you already knew that but just in case. I suspect that there may be rare cases where kids will try and initiate more than that with an adult and I think that in those cases the kid has already been damaged by other situations in their life. Again not a blame the kid scenario. PS good luck in your attempts to get BD to answer your questions elsewhere.

Everybody,
Another issue I did not include in my list of reasons for prefering openness about kids initiating stuff is that there is a better chance of early intervention if adults realise that it is not abnormal.
o adults who are on the recieving end may be able to raise the issue more safely. I'd image that a male teacher who told anyone that a teenage student was coming on to them in the current environment would be taking a great risk. No one can step in to help the child deal with this better if no-one else knows.
o parents might be more approachable if their child is dealing with this in a risky manner.
o adults with a weakness in this area but who are trying to overcome it might find it easier to get help or a change of situation.

Cheers
R0bert

Yes Pedant, I do realize that my position could provide a partial justification for the behaviour of predatory men who desire to have sex with very young girls. I regret that. But the subject of the morality of under age sex is a very interesting one and I can only approach it by an objective analysis of data based upon my own personal experiences. You are suggesting that it is a taboo subject which must not be mentioned.

If you consider my opinions inappropriate, then you should support Barbara Biggs. Because isn’t that what she is saying about Lolita? If society considers that 12 year old girls should be protected from the sexual predations of much older men, then why do we as a community tacitly endorse this behavior by allowing the publication of books and the screening of movies, which portray the worst kinds of predatory paedophiles in as sympathetic a light as possible?

The central character in “Lolita” is one Humbert Humbert ( suggesting humble and ordinary), who marries a single mother for no other reason than to give himself the opportunity of seducing the woman’s 12 year old daughter. The book is written in the First Person, and we see the seduction of this girl through the eyes of her attacker, as if the readers themselves are complicit in the act. The French call sex books written in this format “books to be read with one hand.”

FBI profilers have discovered that books, magazines or video’s portraying subjects such as paedophilia, bondage, or extreme violence towards women, are not only always found among the possessions of the worst kinds of sexual sadists, they discovered that this material is extremely important to them and among their most treasured possessions.

Redneck re this "taboo" idea [pedant insert - taboo means to exclude from use, approach, or mention] subject, I guess that yes, I am saying that it should be excluded from use [I'm saying that I think an adult having sex with a child is wrong and that there are no exceptions]. However I'm not opposed to mentioning or discussing as I'm also interested in the morality of underage sex too and in discussing it. You clearly have another opinion to me, because you think women pedophiles are not immoral (well as long as they look hot with a great body and wear short skirts apparently - another reason I have a problem with your arguments what if children were interested in a hot male teacher with a great body who wears short shorts? Is a woman pedophile only okay if she is hot? And you and Space Cadet say that a boy should feel proud to be getting sex with an older woman - what if he didn't? Wouldn't your approach make him feel guilty that he didn't like it? Classic pedophile mind-bending - I'm a really hot woman so you should feel special to be getting sex with me). And I won't stop telling you that I think you are wrong. With the greatest respect, if you are doing an "analysis of data" I don't think that you can really be "objective" about your own experiences.

Redneck what Barbara is saying about Lolita is that when it is filmed the girl always looks older than 12, because society is complicit in the view that girls who are abused might have initiated it and hence deserved it so it's probably okay in some circumstances (e.g. when you have a sexually "willing" child who looks like an adult such as Lolita is portrayed). It's no surprise to me that pornography sites references [from irritating spam that I delete - I'm not against adult porn but I dislike spam and hate child porn] refer to "eager, young, barely-legal Lolitas". Clearly, barely legal means 16 yo (at least in Australia). What Barbara is saying is that if the film portrayed a 12 yo girl people would be totally disgusted and it would aid in clearing up the "she wanted it so it was okay" argument. While I agree with Barbara that the argument is reprehensible I don't necessarily know if a refilming of Lolita with an accurate age portrayal would be good because of, as you say, the sympathetic portrayal of Humbert in the story. It might turn into a prized possession for pedophile's collections as you describe. Your analysis of the book Lolita is pretty good.

Space Cadet and Redneck have made comments which would appear to epitomise the young boy's sexual encounter with Stifler's Mum has a 'badge of honour', and a rite of passage for the pubescent male boy. The double standard is glaringly obvious in Space Cadet's post, who claims that he would have loved Stifler's Mum's affections at age 13. However, a 13 year old girl desiring the same thing is childish and clearly has some emotional issues and a love me love me complex. Is the issue here about sexual autonomy and precisely the moment when it reaches maturity? Because as a child I was disgusted, horrified and damn near petrified to be told by older male associates that a girl old enough to bleed is old enough to feed. I developed breasts at age 9, and menstruation at 11. And that was 17 years ago, so it is not just girls today who reach mens at 11. The real issue is that children are not asexual beings, and the onus is on adults to not abuse the position of authority and power that the age differential creates, male or female. In the event that abuse results, the law should punish indiscriminately, which is why justice is considered blind. However, ample anecdotal evidence exists that demonstrates a female predator is considered less heinous than a male one, the comments of Redneck and Space Cadet suggesting they would agree with this view. Female sexuality is misguided and dangerous, male sexuality virile and potent. I guess some archetypes will stay around forever.

Dear Barbara

Thank you for your article.

As a mental health professional, I am amazed at the responses to your article - from both males and females. Indeed, in the main, I am apalled.

Having nursed dozens and dozens of female victims of paedophillia, I think that I have a good handle on most things about the issue.

For God's sake - you people who say that young girls "come on" to you. Do you have any idea of their backgrounds? I do.

From my experience they were a victim of an older male - usually a step father, "an uncle", or a so-called "family friend". They were "taught" by the paedophile to "come on" to an older male. That is their strategy. That is their modus operandi.

Some female children are abused from the age of three months. They grow up thinking that [abnormal] sex stuff is normal. The paedophile "trains" them! They are indoctrinated.

Grr - I am so angry that most posters are in denial.

In Toowoomba for example, the majority of young females in the psych unit were victims of child sexual abuse. They did not know any other way to behave. Their mothers had the blinkers on, and their "fathers" continued their acts of "love".

I nursed the same kind of young girls on the Hawkesbury in NSW and in Nambour Q.

For God's sake, get your heads out of the sand. Paedophillia is alive and well - possibly next door!

I remain in shock re most of the above responses.

Regards
Kay

To Pedant. Part 1

What is “a child”? All NSW states consider “adulthood” begins at 18 years of age. But in NSW the age of consent is 16 and in Queensland it is 17. So it is quite legal to screw “children.” The first thing I would point out is that if an 18 year old man screws a 16 year old “child” in Tweed Heads, it is perfectly legal. But if he then drives the “child” over the bridge into Coolangatta and screws her again, he is a paedophile.

Here is a true story. When I asked my ex girlfriend “Judy”, “ when did she lose her virginity?” She smiled and said. ‘When I was 15 years, 11 months, 6 days and 23 and a half hours old. “ Tell me, do you consider “Judy’s” former ex boyfriend a paedophile who should be jailed for 5 years? Or do you consider that under age sex is not a black and white issue, and that there are plainly shades of grey?

The question of the morality of older people having sex with under age “children” has been played out in Sydney in the last 6 months. A married, predatory male gym teacher deliberately set out to seduce a 14 year old female pupil. He then used emotional blackmail to keep the girl as his mistress for some years and ended up having such emotional control over her that he even ordered her to have sex with his mates. The girl became a mental patient by age 20. She finally ended up having the teacher prosecuted and he is now rotting in jail for 5 years.

To Pedant Part 2

But in another school, a 15 year old boy told his mates that he intended to seduce his female gym teacher. His success at his boast made him a legend among his school mates and he must have been grinning from ear to ear. But the boys mother found out and dobbed the married female teacher in. The female teacher was jailed for six months, much to the distress of the 15 year old boy. The boy was so horrified at the repercussions to his teacher from his playful behaviour that became totally estranged from his mother and moved out of the family home. He then went public with the media and pleaded for the teacher to be released from jail because he considered that the situation had all been his own fault.

Do you consider that both teachers behaviour is equally reprehensible or do you concede that the ramifications to the “children” were different and therefore the situations were different?

1.

Kalweb, thanks for your post, a great response to all those who try to blame the girls when older men have sex with those girls. So there you are R0bert - clearly there are some children out there asking adults to have sex with them but those children may be psychologically traumatised and have often been "groomed" into those behaviours. So we don't actually need children to be told that they deserve their abuse because they initiated it, we need all adults educated that sex with children is wrong in all circumstances. Adults are the responsible ones - stop trying to blame the children. However, Kalweb, I think posters to this thread should be given credit for dealing responsibly as an adult to approaches from children. I'm an adult and no child has ever asked me for sex - but clearly some of the posters on this thread have had children ask them for sex and they have said no which is good [methinks they exaggerate somewhat about these hordes of ravenous predatory children chasing them down the street pinning them down demanding sex, sex, sex - yes this is an exaggerated description ;-)].

Redneck, you are wrong regarding Tweed Heads/Coolangatta. Queensland consent age is 16 (s215(1) Criminal Code), except for anal sex, which is 18 (s208(1) Criminal Code) www.legislation.qld.gov.au

So as long as the man in your example who drove over the border from NSW to Qld did not have anal sex with the 16 year there is no crime. One other offence in Queensland is if you are a teacher and you have sex with one of your students who is under 18 (not sure of the section but it's in there somewhere). In NSW they recently reduced the age of consent for anal sex to 16, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about “horrible gay men getting their hands on our innocent sons" very interesting given posters here talking about the level of sexualisation of children - perhaps Maximus would propose a law to protect gullible old men from predatory teenage boys ;-)

2.

Redneck, re teachers example, if you are referring to the Gavin Hopper and the Karen Ellis cases both occurred in Victoria so couldn't have been in Sydney - to be pedantic Sydney is in NSW ;-)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/02/1091412047387.html?from=storylhs
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17308939-5001028,00.html

I consider that both teachers’ behaviours were reprehensible. The situations are similar but not equal - Hopper’s behaviour was more reprehensible (not because a male but over a longer period and got the student to have sex with his mates) and he deserved and got the longer sentence. But again, just because the boy "wanted it" is not an excuse for a female teacher to have sex with an underage male student. In my opinion, it seems the sentences were appropriate. One teacher (female) was imprisoned for 6 months for that teacher's criminal behaviours and the other teacher (male), whose behaviour was worse, was imprisoned for 5 years. If you changed the sexes around in these situations (female teacher deliberately seduces boy and he ends up being mentally traumatised while 15 yo girl declares intention to seduce male teacher and does so) the sentences would also be appropriate (5 years for the female and 6 months for the male).

Teachers have to realise that they can't have sex with their underage students (male OR female), in ANY circumstances INCLUDING where the student has asked for sex, and that the resultant penalty is likely to be imprisonment and if there are aggravating factors that they face lengthy imprisonment. Regarding the boy being hurt by the teacher's sentencing and alienated from his family etc etc I think that it's not the court's fault for sentencing the teacher it's the teacher’s fault for having sex with the boy – if she had shown some adult responsibility and said no he would have been saved all this suffering. An interesting view on this case is at http://www.mako.org.au/newsart212.html

So teachers - don't have sex with your students or you'll end up in jail. Keep that slutty Miss McKim in line.... ;-)

Post 3 re Judy example in 24 hours when I have some more posting allowances….

I am shocked by kalweb's denial of normal adolescent schoolgirl behaviour. In my time I have had intimate conversations with a number of women about their sexual histories, their schooldays, their teacher-crushes, albeit not in the formal situation of psychotherapy. But not once did any of these women disclose to me that they'd been sexually interfered with by paedophiles when they were children, yet each described being sexually aware, active and flirting in their teens.

Either Kay is correct and I'm living in a state of grossly ignorant denial as she suggests, and the women I have met have not been honest with me. Or kalweb is incorrect, or at least partly so. I don't know, but I doubt that all of those women I've spoken to were child victims of sexual assault.

Meanwhile, Pedant, about your suggestion for legislation, I have no problem with that, just so long as ALL legislation is fair and equal for ALL and the judiciary interprets and sentences ALL transgressors fairly and equally also.

Pedant

Thanks for post 1 - spot on stuff.

Maximus

I am not off the planet. I have professionally worked with young girls. I know how they get trained by paedophiles to be sexually provocative - and I know how they get trained to keep their mouths shut!

Here is an example: a young girl of 18 years had been a victim of "collective" (all family males) child sexual abuse (apart from her mother). I nursed her several times. She became a wrist cutter and had bulemic tendencies. On discharge from hospital, she returned home - despite very good counselling and support - " ... to save my 11 years old sister. They can do it to me instead".

Another 18 years old girl, a uni nursing student always became agitated at 3pm when we were on clinical placement. She was a fantastic student. I could not figure out why she carried on about meeting her father at 3pm. She finally told me. "I have to go home so that he can have sex with me, and not my little sister".

I can give you heaps more examples. At the particular university, in conjuction with the counselling service, we set up the first adult student victims of child sexual assault group.

You would be amazed at the things they told us - how they were trained by adult males to be provocative. It was just awful.

Having said that, I do not belie what you and the other male posters are saying. I just hope that you will open your eyes to an ravaging hidden problem in our society - one in six girls as victims of child sexual abuse is too much for this human unit.

One of my neices for example, is 13 years - sexually provocative - no abuse history - and proudly says that she wants to "f" 16 years old boys. She is shameful.

Cheers
Kay

Maximus and other males

I trust you can see the contrast in my above posting?

I donot think that you males are lying. I just think that you should think outside of the sqaure.

Cheers
Kay

Hi Kalweb

I was very interested in the cases that you submitted and I consider that predatory men who wish to seduce under age girls as a form of sport are utterly reprehensible. But I do not think that women seducing under age boys is anywhere near as big a deal. Have you ever treated an under age boy for psychological problems caused by female sexual abuse?

You also seem to be horrified about what I and other posters are saying, even though you agree that the examples that we are submitting are true.

Here is another one. My 18 year old girlfriend "Judy" had a 14 year old girlfriend "Sue" who was openly living with a 27 year old man named Peter. Peter's family strongly disapproved, but the girls family were ecstatic. The reason was that the girl was known to be sexually active anyway and she had been hanging around with boys who could only be described a mother's nightmare.

The girl's family were very poor and considered 27 year Peter to be a great catch for Sue. He had a permanent job, was known to be decent man, he was a social drinker, did not smoke or take drugs, and was from a wealthy family. Peter really did love the Sue and he eventually married her. Sue herself was very happy living with him.

In addition, both of them were living in a small country town where everybody knew what was going on. But nobody in town was offended nor demanded that the police press charges. This was because Peter was well liked in town and the townfolk apparently felt that the arrangement was good for both Sue and Peter.

I can not in all honesty regard under age sex, even with older people, as a moral absolute that must be automatically considered evil.

Redneck, I suspect one of the reasons that it is treated as a moral absolute is that policing becomes almost impossible if you don't. The fact that other societies have had people getting married much earlier makes the absolute idea look hollow. Our society has made a call (and revised it) on age of consent and I think the treatment is a pragmatic decision. I get kind of concerned about the mental health of adults who want to be in a sexual relationship with children anyway.

Kay, that 1 on 6 figure bugs me. The Queensland Abused Child Trust currently reports about 7% of all substantiated abuse and neglect is sexual. I've heard some very high figures for rates of sexual abuse before but not seen the detail of the relevant studies, what I have read is commentary by those concerned about them.
The 1 in 6 figure is reportedly based on an extremely broad definition of what constitutes sexual abuse. My understanding is that that the following might get included
- Under age sex (figure might be higher when this occurs) with another under age child
- A child feeling uncomfortable about sexual issues - sex ed etc
= Any exposure to Porn (deliberate or accidental, soft or hard etc)

Reasons for publishing an unrealisitically high figure
- Might help mum get custody in the divorce (unless someone actually thinks about who abuses kids)
- Some fanatics working in this field, maybe not dealing well with issues in their own families and it is easier for them to cope if the problem is really common.
- The fanatical end of the feminist movement is like most fanatics and will do and say almost anything to make the opposition look bad.
- Better funding for their organisation if the problem is really bad.

Have you seen the sources for the 1 in 6 figure? Any child abuse is sick and too much for this unit, if child sexual abuse is really running at 1 in 6 I'd be even more horrified.

R0bert

Hmm. Well, I don't know about all this child sex abuse stuff.

Goodness me, some common sense needs to prevail here. Let's take a look. Searching Google for this 1 in 6 statistic revealed 49 such references -

Google search
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%221+in+6+girls%22+sexual+abuse&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

I investigated the first one. It revealed even more startling statistics than 1 in 6! Absolutely amazing!

Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault
CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE (.pdf)
http://www.icasa.org/uploads/child_sexual_abuse.pdf

According to this shocking document, the 1 in 6 statistic pales into insignificance. These people claim that "one in three girls and one in six boys are sexually abused before the age of 18"!

That's 33% of the girl population!

That's 17% of the boy population!

This is very alarming indeed. It is also, most probably, what is known as advocacy research. But assuming it is correct, then we'd see that sex with minors (paedophilia) and family members (incest) was a very ordinary and everyday experience for a whopping 25% of the population of children. There would be nothing unusual about it. Ordinary people would be lobbying to have the age of consent lowered or abolished altogethered and incest laws overthrown because everybody did it and there was nothing unusual or salacious about it. These figures should indicate that incest and paedophilia are normal human behaviours.

About the highest figure I have ever seen claimed for homosexuality is about 17%, and we have seen, living in a liberal democracy, that even this small percentage of the population has been enormously vocal and successful at eliminating laws prohibiting it. So where are the lobby groups for peadophiles? At the percentages quoted for paedophilia, it would seem that they would have a somewhat larger platform upon which to stand. It would appear to be a very wide spread and normal human behaviour. So how come society has laws against it?

Frankly, I don't believe the statistics and I don't believe the problem is wide spread either. And I do believe teenage girls play with sensuality naturally.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all spend a little time being the other gender, we'd see the world so differently, I suspect. I have had my eyes opened to the male response to young girls by watching the remarkable transformation of my oldest daughter. At 13, she suddenly shot up in height and turned from a skinny little girl into someone who looked like a spectacularly beautiful woman. This happened exclusively on the outside, however, inside - to herself- she remained the skinny little girl she had been a few months before. But the way the world reacted to her, Boy, was that a revelation. Both men and women changed utterly in how they behaved to her. Suddenly women were suspicious of her, condemnatory, female teachers were particularly purse lipped about her and men not only stared at her (all men, from 13 to 80), some of them yelled things at her, hung out of car windows at her and impinged on her life in a myriad of ways. Bewidered at first she quickly developed a pugnacious and fake sophisticated veneer, partly to keep herself safe and partly to live up to what the world now seemed to expect. I wanted to get her a t-shirt that quoted Jessica Rabbit (from the animated film Who Killed Roger Rabbit) which said "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way." I'm sure lots of men (and women) thought she was a little tart and asking for it. On the contrary, she is now 17 and still a virgin. I think we project a great deal onto young girls, and they struggle and almost drown trying to deal with it. Beauty is as much a curse as a gift.

3.

Redneck, regarding your "Judy" example in Queensland this is a crime punishable by a maximum 14 years imprisonment. So yes, I would consider Judy’s former ex boyfriend a pedophile. I personally don’t think he should be jailed for 5 years though but I’d leave it up to the judge (going on contemporary Qld sentences he’d be looking at a suspended sentence of 6 months). So no jail for him but it would stop him from ever working with children.

Importantly - ticking the “Maximus” box ;-) I’d say the same for a female who had sex with a 15 year old "Joe". From a practical perspective, if Judy/Joe did not report it to the police then the boy/girl friend would not be charged because nobody would know about it.

I still think it's wrong for Judy's boyfriend to break the law by having sex with her before she was 16. We can't all go around breaking laws if we feel like it! Then we also get the situation where pedophiles say "but look - some girls love it when they're 15 - Judy loved it - I shouldn't be charged for having sex with 15 year old Sharon - she wanted it like Judy wanted it". That's the complaint about Lolita - pedophiles parade examples of children who allegedly "want it" (even though it may be a case of grooming) in a pathetic attempt to excuse their despicable crimes.

Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent it is very interesting - especially re the Netherlands which is one of the most sexually tolerant countries in the world (you would be amazed at the type of porn you can buy, prostitution is legal, homosexuality is legal including civil unions for heterosexual/homosexual with the same rights as marriage, I’ve seen an article on how the government pays prostitutes to have sex with people with a disability although I don’t know if it still happens) however it has a consent age of 16 (18 for prostitutes/pornography) applying to its citizens anywhere in the world.

Maximus I agree that all laws should be equal and fair for everyone. As you can see, I’ve been spending quite some time arguing with Redneck that female pedophiles should have the law applying the same as male pedophiles. I agree with the first four paragraphs of your post “posted by Maximus, Wednesday, 7 December 2005 9:07:12 PM” but I think your suggestion that laws have made life “almost unbearable” might be an exaggeration and I don’t think children under 16 who are abused have to pay child support to an adult abuser who gets pregnant (and certainly one wonders about the wisdom of a woman pedophile bringing up children).

Maximus, regarding the statistics issue I don’t have a view apart from that it would be good to have some statistics and as accurate as possible. I got this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse
“Goldman (2000) notes that "the absolute number of children being sexually abused each year has been almost impossible to ascertain" and that "there does not seem to be agreement on the rate of children being sexually abused". A meta-analytic study by Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998) found that reported prevalence of abuse for males ranged from 3% to 37%, and for females from 8% to 71% with mean rates of 17% and 28% respectively. A study by Fromuth and Burkhart (1987) found that depending upon the definition of CSA used, prevalence among men varied from 4% to 24%.”
But those statistics are not very helpful!
However (while I can see that you are saying it in an ironic fashion) even if incest and pedophilia were running at 25% I don’t think they should be considered “normal human behaviours”. If rape and murder were running at 25% I think they would still be wrong. There are lobby groups for pedophiles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childlove_movement

Ashley that is a scary statement no wonder you were petrified – the one I’ve heard is “old enough to bleed old enough to breed” [yucky].

Great post Enaj

It's interesting to see a thread on such a difficult subject stay so civil and on topic. There have been some really interesting posts throughout this discussion.

Absolutely in agreement that honest statistics would be a big help in understanding the issue, what I'm not sure of is how you get them. So many of those who I would expect are in a position to do so have vested interests in the outcomes.

Another aspect of this issue which has long perplexed me is the proportion of the damage done from the act vs the impact from the way this issue is portrayed. I have no answers to that particular quandry, I think we need to maintain the strong social sanctions against child molesters but at the same time minimise the spill over to children if they happen to be abused. Whilst the kind of person who molests kids is amongst the lowest or the low I'd like for kids not to be left feeling like it was a big issue. Thoughts?

R0bert

Thank you to all posters. You have all given me something to think about.

Yes, I find it hard to believe that the 1:6 figure is correct. In common with most people, I don't want to believe that figure.

Cheers
Kay

Robert, there are two things I'd like to take up from your post.

First, molesters being the lowest of the low. This is too easy, I think. Watch the film The Woodsman with Kevin Bacon (it's out on DVD). It is an exquisite and compassionate exploration of what it is to be a peadophile. Not an excuse, not a minimisation of the heinous nature of the crime -rather the opposite, in fact - but an unflinching acceptance that peadophiles are human too and have their story and their tragedy. Nabokov and Barbara would like it, I think. The child in The Woodsman (who he does not molest) is unequivocally 12 and a pure unadulterated victim.

Second, the statistics on the number of girls who are molested. I once belonged to a book club, it was full of successful, intelligent, educated women in their 30s all but one married with kids. We did Helen Garner's "The first stone" about sexual harrassment and during the discussion it came out that all of us, that is all 15 of us, without exception had been molested at some point in our lives, mostly as young adult females, not children, but nevertheless it was a 100% experience. Mine was in a doctor's surgery, by the doctor! Most were not "serious" but all horribly upsetting. This has always stayed with me, leaving me with at least the suspicion that molestation is much more common than we realise.

Pedant, aren't you perhaps being just a bit of an aptonym? The age of Judy's boyfriend wasn't specified. Would it be appropriate or just to slap the label of sex offender on him, and bar him from working with children no matter what the circumstances of the act? If, say, he had sex with Judy when she was a couple of weeks off 16, and he was 16 and a half?

We acknowledge the age of consent is a purely arbitrary line, and many of us think kids around that age don't fully understand the implications of what they're consenting to, even when they are legally able to give consent. I agree wholeheartedly, they don't. But we must then logically conclude others of a similar age don't fully understand the full implications of what they're instigating.

To Pedant. You are seriously suggesting that an 18 year old man who bonks a willing girl 30 minutes before she turns 16 shpuld be called a "Paedophile" and be jailed for 15 years?

Yeah, sure he should.

Your name certanly suits you. But perhaps it should be changed to "Draco" after the famous Greek philosopher who opined that any crime at all, no matter how minor, must be punished by death.

1.

Anomie, I understand what you are saying. I presume because in this post we are talking about pedophilia – which is in a broad sense the attraction of adults to children although there are various different nomenclatures that Judy’s first sexual partner was someone rather older than her. But that is why we have judicial discretion in sentencing – if Judy’s first sexual partner was 16 and a half when she was “15 years, 11 months, 6 days and 23 and a half hours old” he would be unlikely to even have a conviction recorded.

I didn’t know the definition of aptonym (although I suspected it had something to do with my posting alias “Pedant”) so for the benefit of anyone else who doesn’t know, an aptonym (also aptronym) is the term used for "people whose names and occupations or situations (e.g., workplace) have a close correspondence." The name "aptonym" is a compound word, which consists of the adjective "apt" (from Latin via Middle English) meaning "exactly suitable, or appropriate". The second part of this word comes from the Greek "onuma" ('name'). A friend who is a radiographer worked with a Dr Death and Dr Slaughter, who went to medical school with a Dr Butcher….

http://homepage.mac.com/chapmandave/aptonyms/index2.html
http://humor.about.com/od/reallife/p/ds092104.htm

Technically, (pedantically even if you like!), “Pedant” isn’t my legal surname (which is “O’Meara”) so not really an aptonym…. sounds like a great term to throw into conversation though – when people ask me what I would like to do as a career if I wasn’t in the one I am in now I generally say “a philanthropist” maybe I should change my posting alias to that ;-)

R0bert regarding the proportion vs impact my answer is to blame the adult and stop blaming the children. Stop telling children that they “deserved it” for having a short skirt on or for thinking their Scout Leader is the greatest man in the world. But what about where two 15 year olds are having sex with each other when neither is at the age of consent – tricky, who’d be a parent?

2.

Redneck okay you don’t regard underage sex as a moral absolute that must be automatically considered evil. As I understand it you are not a pedophile, but your opinion and the opinions pedophiles propound coincide there.

I view underage sex as a legal, moral and psychological absolute wrong – I would be cautious to use “evil” because then people might start going around calling young girls like the fictional Lolita and Enaj’s daughter “evil” – the girls are already getting so much of the blame here I’d hate to add another pejorative term. Also “evil” is a religious pejorative term – according to many religions adults having sex with other adults is evil!

I would not support a sentence of 15 years as in your next example, “18 year old man who bonks a willing girl 30 minutes before she turns 16” but I would support a charge and conviction with no conviction recorded (which is the likely sentence). I see you’ve now gone from asking me if I support 5-year sentences for those who have sex with just-under 16’s to now 15 years! Most pedophiles don’t get sentences of anything like 15 years! Here’s an example: Robert Potter, 57, was jailed for eight years, with a non-parole period of 5½ years, for molesting four boys in his care between 1978 and 2002 when they were aged 14 to 16.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/prison-for-scout-master/2005/12/12/1134236005920.html

And see above Karen Ellis got 6 months and Gary Hopper got 3 and ½ years with 2 years non-parole (said 5 above sorry won't rely on your numbers again). Please use a reasonable sentence that the person in your example will get (ie. charge and conviction with no conviction recorded) and proceed to argue on that basis. Also, I happen to be opposed to the death penalty in all cases for anyone, including pedophiles.

Enaj clearly there are many survivors of child sexual abuse. Including you and me - this man is one of my abusers http://www.mako.org.au/tempdobbs.html he abused hundreds of girls over decades. I would seriously encourage you to consider making a complaint against your doctor.

Pendant

Oh My God. I looked at your link - I could not entertain the "more" link. I wish people would get their heads out of the sand.

Enaj and Pendant

Enaj - also female here. My first experience of unwanted child sexual abuse was when I was three years of age. I will never forget it as long as I live. My mother's closest friend's sons. They performed oral sex on me. I have never told my Mother. She would be devastated (she is 78 years of age). My Father (deceased) would, no doubt, have murdered them (WW11 soldier).

The second time was when I was around 10 years of age. He was the local shop keeper. He used to come around from the counter and touch my breasts. For years I went to another shop and did not tell Mum. I had to make up stories for the price of things at the other shop. Dad was still alive at the time - had he known - there would have been bedlam. I was naive. I was just told never to accept any lollies or "things" from a man.

Tragic eh?
Kay

pedant, this seems so trivial compared to the other stuff happening here but again "I'm not blaming children for child sexual abuse". I do believe we need to deal with what actually happens (that can be different to blaming). I think it hurts children and increases the risk of abuse to pretend that they never initiate any kind of sexual contact. I have clearly stated that it is the responsibility of the adult to deal with the situation responsibly. I also think victims of crime can be impacted by how a type of crime is treated even if they understand that it is not their fault. So how do we minimise the occurance of child sexual abuse and how do we reduce the impact on children of child sexual abuse? I also think that two 15 year olds exploring sex should not be an issue of crime but rather risk. Not sure how you manage the 15 and 13 year old or the 11 and 15 year old etc situations.

Enaj, thanks for your feedback. Your comment about peodophiles triggered some more thinging. I'm assuming that there are adults with a sexual interest in children who choose not to follow through with it. How do we help them without lessening the social sanctions against people who choose to abuse children?

R0bert

RObert

We now teach our young girls - and boys! never to accept touching without parental permission. Rob - sad , but true.

My husband was a school bus driver back in the late 90s. He learned not to touch our neighbourhood kids - as he usually did at family BBQs. It broke his heart. We were living in Kurrajong NSW at the time. His route encompassed numerous inner and outer western suburbs. He came home distraught on a daily basis.

Because of political correctness and his work agreement - the bottom line was that he could not show any emotion. He stopped driving buses for schoolkids.

We are having a young boy aged 10 years - staying with us over for a week of the Christmas period. The family know us and trust us.

Even so, where we live, there are young children everywhere around the river. My husband's personality has changed - he is scared to be real - as a good man!

Kay

Well, it seems that sexual abuse of children, especially girls, according to all the female posters here, is indeed widespread. How can you argue with that? It must be normal human behaviour. Everybody does it, apparently.

So what happenned to me? How come I missed out?

Nobody told me about this. None of the blokes down at the pub ever talked about it. I've never done it. I'd better start molesting young girls immediately. I don't want people to think I'm peculiar or perverted or anything, just because I don't do sexual things to little girls. And all this time I thought I was a normal man. Now the shocking truth has emerged - I'm sexually deficient!

So I'd better get going folks, I'm off to buy some lollies, maybe I could get to sit next to an unaccompanied child on an airliner, or better still, get a job as Santa - YES! That's it. I've got a lot of catching up to do.

But wait a minute. Maybe the women who post here aren't your usual sample of women. Hmm. I'd better think about it. And I strongly suggest others do too.

Had a thought – checked anomie www.dictionary.com:
1 Social instability caused by erosion of standards and values; and
2. Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals.
Interesting choice of posting alias!

R0bert I didn’t say or even mean to suggest that you personally blame the child, in fact your posts are very clear that you don’t. I was talking about it in a broader sense – that society must stop blaming children. In regard to the “children initiate it” argument I agree that children are not asexual, but we can’t allow pedophiles to say, “but he/she started it!” as an excuse. We need to educate adults that having sex with children in any circumstances is wrong and will result in criminal sanction. If a boy/girl is under 16 and asks you, an adult, for sex you must say no (which all the posters on this thread have apparently been doing and for which they deserve credit).

Kalweb that is terrible. I seriously encourage you to consider making a complaint. How old were your mother’s closest friends sons? How sad for your husband – we should be able to give children hugs but checking with their parents first isn’t a bad idea.

Redneck, in my previous post I said “underage sex”, to clarify I mean sex between an adult and an underage child. Regarding the example of a 14yo “openly living” with a 27yo, I say that it is the legal and moral responsibility of the 27yo to wait until the 14yo is 16 before having sex. I know people who were in a similar situation (15 and 26) and they properly waited until she was 16 to have sex and are now engaged (she is now 19). R0bert brings up a sensible point regarding enforcement, there has to be a line in the sand somewhere. Some groups propose that the age of consent be raised to 18, although this seems rather extreme – you can get married at 16 with court consent.

Maximus, maybe you missed out on being abused as a girl because you’ve never been a girl ;-) and then you say that you should start abusing little girls – well from you wanting everything to be equal for everyone I note that you don’t say you should go out abusing little boys do you? Why not stay the respected (by me at least most of the time) Maximus that you are and please don’t abuse any children at all.

Seriously though, one thing that I hope you note from all the women on this post who have been abused (irrespective of whether they might be a “usual” sample) is that none of them liked it. In fact it was very distressing and I respectfully suggest that your post is a bit cavalier for such a serious topic. Redneck - the only male to report abuse as a child - reports being set upon by girls when ten years old and he didn’t like it. You say that you “missed out” on being abused as a child – I think that is good. I would never wish for any child to be abused. I don’t think it’s normal behaviour, whatever the statistics, and I will always say that it is wrong.

Do you think that homophobia in society might make things even more distressing for boys who are abused by men?

Also, I hope you’re saying, “Maybe the women who post here aren't your usual sample of women”, in the sense that not 100% of women are abused as children, rather than seeking to denigrate said women.

Kay, did you see the article in yesterdays (Saturdays) Courier Mail by Madonna King. She was talking about some of the issues you raised regarding your husbands experience. Worth a read if you have not done so already. It is a raising of the issue rather than an in depth analysis but they have their place to get people thinking.

Pedant, thanks again for clarifying your view in regard to me blaming kids. Maybe I'm a bit touchy about things like that, if so I apologise.

I certainly hope Maximus was talking about statistical representation rather than personality as well, that's the way I read that portion of the post. I also hope that the high rate of incidence of sexual abuse experienced by female posters in this thread is not representative of the general population. I'm guessing that people who have suffered abuse (and to various extents dealt with it) are more likely to get involved in discussions such as this one than those who have not done so. I'm here because I'm fond of having opinions on all sorts of topics and because of the harm done to society (and especially children and single dads) by misrepresentation of child abuse issues. Whilst child sexual abuse is a real and horrific issue impacting on far to many lives I think the climate of fear being generated around it and the isolation of men (and to a lesser extent women) from children is damaging to all of us. That child sexual abuse gets so much of the attention while neglect and and other forms of child abuse get so little public focus is also a concern - as previously stated CSA is about 7% of substantiated abuse and neglect in Qld.

R0bert

To Kalweb. I did not say I did not like it. It is just that the girls kept coming back for more whenever there was no adult around to catch us. I was getting scared of being caught and I kept telling the girls that if they did not cut it out, then I would dob them in.

When I eventually told my mum, she was outraged and had a row with one of the girls mothers. This woman told my mum that it was no big deal. To her, it was just normal kiddie behaviour. What you do not seem to understand is that many parents feel entirely different about sexual matters than others. As a man in his early twenties, I went to a mates house where I was openly propositioned by my mate's mother, not only in front of my mate, but in front of the woman's ten year old daughter.

I went to my local video shop one day, and a boy of about ten or twelve was standing beside me looking at the displayed video's . His very expensively dressed mother walked back from the "Adult" section and said to him "Here is that porno movie you wanted with Pamela Andrson in it, Tommy."

In another incident, a 15 year old girl from an exceedingly rich family (you should have seen how big their yacht was) marched right up to me and said that she wanted to "pick me up". This was while I was in the main entertainment area at Dunk Island Resort with her parents only feet away. . When I laughed and declined the invitation, the girl's mother, (who I knew was in earshot), said "Don't waste your time with him, I would go for the singer in the band."

Maximus must have had a sheltered life.

Very interesting thread still...

Interesting the Maximus noted "Maybe the women who post here aren't your usual sample of women."

One can make the same assumption about the type of men that post here.

But why?

I find many of the male and female posts to be valid and of interest. To start casting aspersions is not progressing the debate.

Unwanted sexual advances can range from the merely irritating (cat-calls when walking down street) to the threatening - forced sexual conduct.

I have to note that many people are often confused as to what constitutes sexual interest. For example I am frequently bemused that a smile, politeness or simply being friendly has made some of us the object of pursuit.

I acknowledge Kay's contribution that paedophiles can and do 'groom' young children.

However, I believe that sexuality is an innate part of being human and whether consciously projected or not - the responsibility (as many have pointed out) remains with the adult.

It is also the responsibility of the adult to ensure that our young people have sufficient self-esteem and not be coerced by others whether they be the same age or much older.

The buck stops with us.
(Play on words intended)

redneck, judging by your posts I have had a pretty sheltered life too, something I think I'm fairly pleased about. You do make a good point about different families having different standards, one of the reasons the law draws a line in the sand by specifying an age of consent. Some families may choose to encourage their children to disregard the law, others may do the best they can with the knowledge that a child is engaging in sexual activity by trying to minimise the risks (access to contraception etc). Somewhere in that last issue is the problem we face when we deal with the difference between tolerance and endorsement. At what point does cooperating with the knowledge that a particular child will do everything in their power to have sexual relationships become endorsement for that?
I'm not offering up answers to that, I think we all have to do the best we can with the situations we face. The line in the sand gives society a means to deal with some of the worst situations, probably not much more.

R0bert

I feel my post about the Book Club women was misinterpreted, few of those women related childhood sexual abuse, most of it was adult - as it was with me, or at least post-pubescent. My oldest daughter has already experienced a frightening (at 15) but thankfully minor episode of molesting by a boy a little older than she was. She was so terrified, she began to faint, and thank the lord, this terrified the boy and he ran away. I wanted to tell the boy's school, because he obviously has a serious problem and needs help, but she would not let me and I had to respect her wishes, however reluctantly.

This is part of the problem, the stigma surrounding what I suspect is an extremely common female experience (sorry Maximus, I hardly know a woman who hasn't had some incidence of unwanted sexual touching that goes beyond a pinch on the bum), keeps it hidden and so allows it to go on. That boy will probably repeat his behaviour with other girls, for example. That's why people like Barbara Biggs are so courageous and important, they tell us a truth about ourselves we have avoided hearing for centuries. They shine much needed light into darkness.

To Robert.

I generally agree with the age of consent laws, because a line has to be drawn somewhere and 16 is not unreasonable. But I come from a socio economic group where juvenile sexual behaviour was common by age 14 for girls, and the girls themselves thought that the law was a joke.

Barbara Biggs wants to protect young girls from the sexual predations of boys and men and that is most definitely a noble cause. But she has stated that "12 year old girls do not come on to men". I am sorry, but I can not entirely agree with that. In my own experience,very young girls most definitely do come onto young boys. By 13, some girls are trying out the effects of their budding charms on men that they trust. And by 14, some of them are having sex, not only with boys but with older men.

We as a society can hardly condemn this behaviour if we tacitly endorse it through movies such as "Lolita", "Quiet Days in Clichy" or "13". Nor can we condemn it if we allow our young children to be exposed to a procession of rock video's where a bunch of rock stars sing songs, complete with blatent sexual images, that endorse the concept of underage sex.

Finally, it appears to me that the ideal female body shape for high fashion is now the "adolescent look." Supermodels today look like adolescents with long legs and thin bodies. Even Claudia Schiffer admitted that supermodels are "freaks". Kate Moss was renowned for her adolescent looks and even women's magazines like Cleo and Cosmopolitan are using 14 and 15 year old girls on their covers.

Society disapproves of underage sex yet we tacitly support it.

redneck, unless I've missed something I'm 100% in agreement with your last post (are you OK with that?). You've seen my reasons for thinking the lies about kids initiating sexual advances (at whatever level) do harm to all of us, the kids included.

Somewhere there is a balance that accepts the fact that kids do want to learn about their developing sexuality, that some will come to it earlier than others or be more interested (obsessed) than others. I doubt that the close your eyes and hope it goes away approach is any help to kids to get through it. Part of our job is to help keep kids safe from predatory adults through that process as well as some help with the the normal risks associated with intimacy (broken hearts, unwanted babies, disease, gossip etc).

I think we still have a lot to learn about how to help kids through the storm of the teenage years - to many moralists trying to obscure the debate with BS to promote their own personal preferences for peoples behaviour. That has a familiar feel to it.

Have a great Christmas
R0bert

Hello, I have had similar experience as Redneck above.

I let it go because I did not want to do anything and I did not want to hurt the girls feelings.

She did what she wanted for a while.

I am 27.

What should I have done? Nothing?