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The Forum > Article Comments > Boys must be boys > Comments

Boys must be boys : Comments

By Dave Smith, published 29/11/2005

Dave Smith argues boys would benefit from an initiated rite into manhood - in the boxing ring

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AMSADL,

Read Dave's prior articles.

No voilence hey? Let your son understand himself and his inner spirit, it is not about voilence, it is about harnessing and releasing Themos in a controlled environment, and the learning and discipline involved with that (i hope i am right in your eyes Dave!).

Your son, i hope will be a well rounded individual. I just hope he is not keen to release his themos at any time in his life, as he will not know how to control it, and i hope his frustration does not get the better of him without a release.

I call kids like that time bombs. He is 10 now, i just hope at 14-17 when he goes through what most boys do, his discipline will stay intact, and he is not effected by his stance with other boys. I hope he learns not to be pushed around at school, and to respect himself and others.

Face it, your boy has something in him which we cannot control. If you do not know and understand the need for this nurturing, please, if he needs to release themos dont ostracise him.
Posted by Realist, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 12:11:47 PM
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Dear Dave Smith,

I was appalled at your recent comments on onlineopinion.com.au regarding boys' ‘rites of passage’. I have a great deal of concern when we equate physical prowess and fighting with manhood.

Nothing could be further from the truth and I'd be fascinated to know in your suggestion of a ‘rite of passage’: What happens to those boys who refuse to fight? And what happens to the boys who lose the fight? Perhaps the former become honorary girls/women, and the latter become second class men.

The Australia AsiaPacific Institute for Men's Gender & Health Studies [ http://www.mensgenderhealth.com.au ] adopts a policy that men come from diverse backgrounds including heterosexual, bisexual and gay identities; different social, cultural, Indigenous and ethnic origins; and men with disabilities. All men have to be accepted regardless of their ability to fight and be dominant. We need to adopt philosophies surrounding young men that are inclusive, non-homophobic, non-sexist and pro-feminist. We need to celebrate a wide definition of masculnitIES in our Australian culture.

What our community should be doing today is questioning and challenging the definition of manhood in Australia. The way in which masculinity is defined in our current culture is fraught with problems, especially for young men who believe that they have to relate to a very narrow definition of masculinity to gain acceptance. Part of that narrow definition is physical dominance and violence.

Many young men participate in health compromising behaviours to prop up narrow definitions of what it means to be a man in the Australian culture. The time has come to give a straight message to boys and young men that they can be the man they want to be without having to adhere to social stereotypes, such as the sentiments that you were expressing in your article.

Yours sincerely,

A/Prof Allan K Huggins
--
Director
MensOwn Counselling Clinic
Australia AsiaPacific Institute for
Men's Gender and Health Studies
Fremantle, Western Australia
Phone: (+61 8) 93355607 or 0412 109 894
http://www.mensgenderhealth.com.au/
Posted by Allan, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 2:49:39 PM
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Hey Dave,

Well written. I grew up in a time where boys were made of sterner stuff. We were required to find our place in society by means of discipline, sacrifice and hard work. The character building was done through example setting of fathers and older men in the community.

My father was not my friend he was my guide and disciplinarian. I was not his equal, that was something you had to earn when I was boy. He was my example and my strength; he showed me what it was to respect myself and others through his actions. I didn’t become his friend until I was a man myself having earned his respect through hard work and good citizenship.

I can understand what you mean when you say that boys can have those things through boxing. This must teach principles of hard work and respect through honest sweat. I was not a boxer myself but received much of my community male mentorship as a boy scout from age 5 to 25. Through that incredible organisation I learnt from other community minded men discipline, self-sufficiency, faith and honour. All in a male dominated and competitive environment that sustained itself through good Christian values. We felt we belonged to something far bigger than ourselves and that belonging combined with well adjusted and enforced boundaries gave us the self confidence and character to resist the use of drugs, the commission of crime and the flouting of community standards.

This is all so very “old fashion” and 50’s, but I am so glad I had that strong male mentorship and that rite of passage you talk about was real and strong in my culture. Modern thinking no longer seems to respect that culture and so boys physically mature but don’t always grow up to be strong men.

You have my support in your endeavours.

P.S. I have this impression that the rates of crime and drug use in boys and young men is climbing at about the rate our community is acquiring academics involved in the study of “Men's Gender and Health Studies”?!
Posted by Woodyblues, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 6:11:27 PM
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I agree that such a rite could have beneficial outcomes for a large percentage of young men in Australia, however I do not imagine that it would be to the taste of all.

On the whole however I believe that the beneficial outcomes could include self-discipline, confidence, self-sufficiency, and of course fitness. I also believe that this could in fact contribute to a reduction inn crimes against women and others. This is because the majority of such offenders are in fact cowards, and would be less likely to commit such offences if they thought that there was an increased likelihood of being disauded by other persons with self-confidence and skill sufficient to demonstrate the error of their ways.

Perhaps in light of recent studies that show that nowadays the average person is extremely unlikely to attempt to intervene in any despute, even if manifestly unfair, brutal or gutless - such a rite could reintroduce the typical aussies willingness to intervene if necessary?

Perhaps it could also defeat the current climate of 'its not my fault - somebody else is to blame' because in the ring everything is up to you - nobody else can be blamed for your own incompetence / lack of preparation.

All in all I think it is a good thing, perhaps it could be introduced in schools for both male & female students (with serious padding etc.).

PS Dave, is it possible for an article on Israel's nuclear arsenal?
Posted by Aaron, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 7:33:56 PM
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Woodyblues,

Could it be possible that the increasing rates of male suicide (81% are male), the increasing incidence of self-harm, and the rising crime and drug use/abuse rates, could just be related to the fact that young men feel, in the Australian, culture, that they can't be themselves, but have to conform to a very narrow definition of what people have described on this forum as appropriate 'maleness'? We have to give young men permission to define their masculinity in the way they want to do it, therefore, alleviating the stress that leads to a lot of problems for young Australian men.

A/Prof Allan Huggins
Posted by Allan, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 7:52:15 PM
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How shocking. Stating the blindingly obvious and taking an evolutionary behavioural perspective of human nature instead of denying the awful truth and pushing everything thru a PC ideological filter. Shock therapy is too much for most to bare, although a good dose of it goes a long way and saves a lot of time, energy, resources.

This approach isn't for everyone. l suspect for a majority of latent meesogeenuts and their rape extensions it prolly fits like a glove.

Dont like the evolutionary behvioural/human nature angle? Send the lads off for whatever re-education necessary to actually ALLOW them to be male and reclaim SELF RESPECT for their MASCULINITY. No need to rebadge and redifine 'man-ness' every 10 years on the back of an ever changing feminine side peddled by self serving marketing hacks... "you are not the clothes you wear, you are not the car you drive, you are not the contents of your wallet." There's some Fight Club (the movie) wisdom that transcends physicality and speaks to TRUE CHARACTER.

Many women are seemingly tired of being in touch with their so-called masculine sides too. Its all getting a bit tired and the old guard and their old artillery are thankfully ageing away into cynical oblivion. Some are even ageing gracefully.

If you have the patience for educating the sensitive types, then fine. Otherwise 6 months of training and a few minutes physically connecting with your fellow human in a primal and instinctual confrontation of our PHYSICAL realities would save a lot of time. So would less coddling and fewer layers of bubble wrap in childhood.

People are smart and can figure out the difference between fight training and un-controlled agression. Give humans some credit for the enormous intellectual advantage we have over our fellow animals. Sheesh, next people will be saying that watching women in bikinis having a pillow fight is gonna send men into a marauding rape rampage. Oops... that mythology has already crossed the public threshold into received fact. Maybe we should ban boyz from beaches too.
Posted by trade215, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 8:32:38 PM
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