So much of what is written by "experts" on Islam is little more than simplistic nonsense couched in impressive academic language. I enjoyed reading this article because it showed how easy it is to undermine the arguments used by those who keep painting Muslims as "the other".

However, I also find it disturbing when some Muslims keep harping on about double standards of western governments. Muslim governments hardly have an impressive record in this department.

excellent piece

Thank you for your thoughtful article. We agree on the ethical crisis of liberal democracies and the eventual futility of Fukuyama’s analysis. However there is one thing I must way about the theological shorthand you use when you describe Islam as: “an Abrahamic faith, (that) shares the monotheistic root and ethical vision of Huntington’s and Fukuyama’s “Judeo-Christian heritage” Firstly, Islam is Abrahamic only by a fairly superficial adoption. Abraham does not have the place in Islam that he has in Judaism as the father of faith. Please correct me if I am wrong. Secondly, to describe the Judeo-Christian heritage as having monotheism in common with Islam, while superficially true when compared to paganism, is misleading when we understand the centrality of the doctrine of the Trinity in Christian theology. This difference is at the root of many theological differences that exist between Islam and Christianity, most specifically how the sacred texts are understood. As I understand it Allah is a God beyond human sense and makes his will know by transmitting his law to the prophet. In Judaism God dwells in the text as the Word. While Mohamed is the human receptacle for the law, in Judaism God exists in his speech, in the text not beyond it. This understanding is brought forward into Christianity with the understanding that Jesus is the Word made flesh, he is not a messenger but is actually God enfleshed. While Allah is a “monadal consciousness” the Christian God is known as the truth of all things in history by human subjectivity. (Father, Son and Holy Spirit.)
Another very important difference between Islam and Christianity is that Mohamed was a warrior who used violence to progress his cause, Jesus, on the other hand, delivered himself over to the violent powers of the world to do their worst and thus revealed them for what they are. This must be lived out in the behavior of their followers, something that Islam, understandably, in the present crisis rarely acknowledges.

I do not wish to insult others - but islam has nothing at all to do with Judaism or Christianity. Moslems worship an entirely different god, a pagan god if you please. This pagan god was once called 'hubal' the moon god of Mecca. The islamic insignia remains a crescent moon. Islam was never a tolerant religion, all non-moslems had to pay extra taxes, live in certain areas, had not the recourse to the law as the moslems had. What we Christians call the Old Testament has over 300 prophecies regarding The Messiah, Jesus. All these prophecies were fulfilled. Then the New Testament which depicted the life and teachings of Jesus. Then, only then many of hundreds of years later came the koran which is a mishmash of both the Old & New Testaments. This koran claims that the Jewish Fathers - Abraham etc were moslem and that is a toal lie. The aim of moslems as stated many times in the koran is the death and destruction of all other religions - especially Judaism and Christianity. numbat

thanks numbat, for a second i thought this might be a productive discussion of the basis for the curent geopolitical situation and an attemmpt to discuss the future of contries like iraq, instead you drag us back into the pointless arguments of so many other threads on this topic.

but while we are here.

pagan: Of or pertaining to one of the polytheistic faiths indiginous to Europe. Literally means "country dweller" (latin, apparently an insult)

could you explain then how islams monotheastic worship of a divine god is the same as the worship of mulitple gods manifest in natural phenomena or animals.

or how about those very christian traditions of the christmas tree and easter eggs? pagan traditions assimilated by chritianity.

i may be wrong (sells im sure can help me out) but i thought the concept of the trinity was arived at to explain to the pagans of europe how exactly this infinite and all powerful god died.

my point, both christianity and islam have assimilted aspects of the religions that precede them, this is a non issue, now can we please get back on the topic?

I agree that hypocritical acts and statements of the US are the reason it is a target, and is a significant catalyst for the growth of Islamist terrorist groups, but the relative positions of Islamic nations is important. And there is a reactionary aspect to it, eg. the relatively recent prominence of headscarves in Turkey, and fundamentalism in general. I think a lot of it has to do with a sense of powerlessness, on personal, national and global levels. Similarly for Christian fundamentalists re:cultural values, but they are in a superior & comfortable economic position, have no real grievances and can't rebel against any foreign authority.

----
Don't worry numbat, you're only insulting yourself. Where did you get that stuff about the moon? A Chick tract?

If the new testament is an extension of the old, then what's wrong with saying that Moses was of the same religion as Peter? Christianity also wants the death and destruction of all other religions ("No god before me","Unbelievers are anti-christs" etc.)

Islam is similar to Nazism but worse. It is not just a religion, it is a complete social system with it's own barbaric legal code, it's own dress rules and even it's own dietary rules. It is so all pervasive in a Muslim's life, it even sets down strict rules on how a person should wipe their backside.

Islam is a plague upon the Earth, and it is about time our flaccid Western politicians came right out and said it. One thing is certain, Islamic countries are all failures (unless they have a bunch of Chinese running the economy)and the more Islamic they are, the more of a failure they are.

Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Prots, Buddhists, Sikhs,Confusians, Bahai and Hindu's all get along OK together, and none of these religions has a problem with each other. But all of these religions has a problem with Islam. Islam is an aggressive and totally intolerant religion who preaches to it's adherents that Muslims are one thing and everybody else on the planet is something else.

The myth that Western people could live with Muslims peacefully just blew up in London, New York and Madrid. These people are a danger to us all and should not be allowed to immigrate to this country.

Hey look redneck, you and Islam have a few things in common (by your definition!)... your intolerance, a plague on the earth and a failure (by human standards)...congratulations...

** my apologies to the Islamic faith... I don't really think you are any of these things... just few fools like redneck hiding behind your faith...

I am saddened by the way comments to this article have turned to abuse. Nayeefa has given us a well constructed article that is a credit to her. For her pains she has evoked a comparison of Islam with Nazism. This is not rational argument, it is plain prejudice. The way forward is honest debate about the nature of Islam, something that has not been allowed by the climate of political correctness. Simply papering over the differences will serve no one, we need to understand each other. Part of the problem with the comments section is that authors publish their ideas under their own names but those who post comments may do so anonymously. For some this gives them permission to avoid real informed discussion and to engage in insult and innuendo.

Conratulations, Sells for supporting Nayeefa,

In backing Nayeefa, it is not that we want to become Moslems, it is about a fair go for someone showing both intellect and courage like Nayeefa. Some of us have already used up a lot of forum post space explaining that Western history owes a lot to Islam for virtually getting Christianity out of the Dark Ages through the cooperation around 2000 AD of Muslim scholars able to converse with the French monk Peter Abelard who in turn influenced St Thomas Aquinas. Much debt is also owed to Ancient Greek philosophy, which the Muslims did not destroy like the earlier Christians, but used it to advantage, helping the West get out of a rut, which any of Nayeefa's critics can find out if they hook on to Google website.

In fact, it could be said to both Christians and Islamics, history has shown that both sides have used the light of reason to advantage. Reason is also shown in sport between our two great religions with good umpires. So what about a good heap of it in civil life. But sadly, especially from our leaders the way things are at present in foreign relations, there is not much of a fair go coming from either side.

Best Wishes - George C - (Bushbred)

Hi Sells,

Few corrections/ comments:

1. Abraham place in Islam
The koran defines muslims as the followers of Abraham in terms of endorcing the commandments. The Koran have part 14 talking comprehensively about Abraham and 16 (120-123) defining Muslims are following the Abraham path. The pilgrim (visiting Mecca) is to the house he built with Ishmael, his son from his wife Hagar. You can refer to the Bible for further references. The most references in the Koran is to Abraham (63 references) in 25 different surahs of the 114.

2. Allah and the Christian God
They are one God: Allah is the name of God in the Arabic Bible. Muslims (and Christian arabs) use the word Allah rather than God because of two reasons:
- It have no plural
- It is neither male or female (there is no ‘it’ in most Semitic languages)

3. Mohamed was a warrior
Mohammed was a merchant till the age of 40 when the message came to him. Before then, his reputation within the tribes was the wise man that always prevented tribal wars (read his famous story of the blackstone).
From the age of 40 to 53 his was asked to preach his message. The concept of self defence in Islam ‘preached by fight those who fight you and do not transgress’ was actually when Mohamed (PUH) was 53 years of age. All wars within his life was survival wars when he was always outnumbered in ratio (10 or 15 to 1 in some cases).
Interestingly enough both Islam and Christian teachings believe that Jesus second coming will have a fighting/ defence aspect.

Naive C. gives us the same old blather about the Islamists weighing in with their historically based opinion on the best form of government. I only wish she were kidding. Since its inception, Islam has been hostile to the non-Islamic world. (And don't talk about dhimmitude, which has not changed in Islamic doctrine, as tolerance.) Today, the apologists excuse the most recent barbarity in London by citing Iraq. Yes, and Hitler's Germany needed breathing room, too. And what have the Phillipinos or Indonesians done to deserve violent rebellion from Muslims? What have the Christians and Animists in Sudan -- or the Copts in Egypt -- done to deserve being killed and raped in the name of jihad? What alleged atrocity by the West justifies the Saudis' forbidding Bibles to be carried -- or any other religion to be practiced -- in Saudi Arabia, or the Taliban's subjugating of women to the status of chattel? Wake up and smell the jihad.

"Intolerant", Mr "Reason?"

Muslims believe that people who have sex outside of marriage should be stoned to death. I have got news for you, mate. I have had sex outside of marriage, and I do not feel too "tolerant" towards people who want to stone me to death. I do not want them in my country and I certainly do not want them living next door to me.

The fact that every Muslim country on this planet is a basket case speaks loads about their backward religious and social values. Bobbing up and down on a prayer mat waiting for Allah to solve all their problems for them is going to get them nowhere. What they need is a Renaisance of thought.

But they will never focus upon that, while ever they people like some of the posters here making excuses for them. Like the Israeli Prime Minister once said "You Australians will not wake up until they start walking into your restaurants with bombs strapped on them."

I hope one of them walks into your favourite restaurant, Mr "Reason", and wakes you up.

Fellow human
1. My point about Abraham is that rather than growing out of the narratives about Abraham as Judaism and Christianity did, Mohamed adopted him, I suspect without understanding his importance. Your comment that: “The koran defines muslims as the followers of Abraham in terms of endorcing the commandments” confirms that. It is very difficult, as we have seen in these pages to understand another religion from the outside. Mohamed envied the Jews possession of scripture and the Qu’ran was its answer to that lack among the Arab peoples. The emphasis on law in Islam indicates that they did not understand the idea of grace that centers around Abraham.

2.To argue that Allah and the Christian God are one and the same from simple analogues in language is fallacious. I am quite prepared to argue that the God that Christian fundamentalism believes in is not the God that I believe in because of fundamental theological differences. Just so Islam.

3. I pulled out my old copy of the Britannica and reread the early history of Islam. I suggest you take a look. Mohamed lead countless raids on other Arab tribes that can hardly have been defensive. The progress of Islam among the Arab peoples was extended by military means.

Hi Sells,

1. When I said God and Allah is one thing was not in the language sense but rather how God defines himself in the Qu’ran as God of Abraham, Moses & Jesus. There is only one God anyway in my belief or yours. I can’t claim to understand how the Trinity works.

2. “Mohamed envied the Jews” is flattening a deep issue. The Qu’ran is mainly concerned with spiritual context around the creation, prophet messages and stories. The Qu’ran criticism to the Jews was on usually within one of the following contexts:
- Excessive/strict implementation of the Judaism teachings, or
- Promote monotheism as exclusive to Jews.
- Intentional mis-interpretation of the Torah around interest (for example in the Qu’ran God said to have banned all interest, which according to the Jewish teachings only Jews to Jews was banned from dealing in interest).
- Manipulating the Sabbath law rather than purifying their intent (Qu’ran example of some putting the fishing nets on Friday then catch the fish on Friday).

3. My point was not in number of wars but rather this:
- Muslims were persecuted and killed for the first 13 years of Mohamed’s message.
- The permit to ‘defend yourself and do not transgress’ came when a war after war was forced upon Muslims (Including sanctioning them for 3 years of thirst and famine)
- In all early wars, Muslims were always outnumbered by 10 or 15 to 1. The Muslims at the time were the poor, women and widows.

Regards,

AK

For anyone wondering about how the cultural fabric/texture might be influenced by Islam, even MINORITY Islam, please note the following:

1/ Minority Muslim Mayor along with 'pc' councillors impose ban on ham sandwiches at council functions of Hume municipality, -community is outraged, but only when the issue becomes high profile in the media do they backflip and rescind the decision. The REASONable person asks "Why the heck did they not provide simply a table of halal food for the Muslims and not discriminate against the 78% of non muslims" ?

2/ Burial laws excemptions given to Muslims in Victoria.
3/ Stamp duty laws ammended to provide for 'Islamic' Loans.

The thinking person might be tempted to ask, 'Where could this lead' ?

The answer is here, from a town of mostly polish Catholics in the USA state of Michigan. A 30% muslim minority are using 'religous freedom' as their mantra for justifying ramming high doses of decibels into the ears of non muslims shouting "Mohammed is Gods messenger" 5 times a day.

The city is outraged, the nation is outraged, but do they stop ? nope. This is religous freedom I remind you... for what ? for whom ?
For a minority group to 'yell' its faith into 'infidel' ears, with the backing of the mayor (who you can all write to, as I have)

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0404/26/a01-133933.htm

Mayors email=> tjankowski@hamtramckcity.com

The Muslim view

“This is a ground-breaking effort, and I hope it will set a precedent for other communities across the nation,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights organization in Washington, D.C.

This is the true "Islam and the West".

No amount of academic double speak will persuade me that our social equilibrium is not under threat from Islam.

Ash... 'who' is hating who here ? :) Its the Muslims who sue us, ram noise into our ears...hmmmm I feel like some bloke on a camel has pillaged my back yard.

Ash, if we did start to 'hate' Muslims, I would 'kinda understand' :) be thankful "The Love of Christ constrains" (at least me)

Hey redneck “how’r ye doin’?”
Thanks for the hope. Show just how reprehensible your kind is, wishing the same as the bombers want. There is a difference between having an opinion and being militant about it. Denigration of another’s faith seems to be the main thrust of a lot of anti-Islam sentiment. Seems you practice what you parade against…. Thanks for providing your own hypocrisy! Makes sleeping easier knowing you may just strap on your own bomb and walk into some innocent Muslims business when you can’t take it any more!

Sells,
Fine. Mohammed raided other tribes outside of war. And what do we call the US invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq and so many other countries where resources are desired. If Iraq couldn’t beat Iran in 10 years of war, how is the US threatened by war?

And so the progress of the west differs how?

(PS – I’m atheist. Yes a nihilist you would say! Cheers. Would rather be damned for not believing that for believing and being a hypocrite *see redneck!)

I am doing just fine, “Mr Reason”. I asked you a question and I just knew you would dodge it. I love it when my people’s enemies behave exactly how I predict they will.

As for saying that “my kind” are reprehensible. How is it that you can prejudge and stereotype me but then claim that I can not do the same to my people's enemies?

But sure I denigrate Islam, it is a threat to our superior western culture and Islam has a lot worth denigrating. Islam is a total failure and every Muslim country is a basket case. How is it “reprehensible” to tell the truth?

I would thank you for displaying to all of our readers how ill equipped you finger waggers are to take on an informed opponent. Your entire post is simply bluster and sneery one liners. Come back and try to debate me when you can figure out an argument. Rotsa ruck.

Reason ( or should I say 'lack thereof' :)

please don't make the same mistake as many, comparing George Bush or the US to 'Mohammed' and justifying MOhammed because of Bush, simply because Bush happens to claim he is Christian.

If Mohammed was just another "Joseph Smith" with his quaint little Tabernacle Qoir it would be no biggy. So what if we are door knocked by a pair of well dressed but deluded mormons from time to time, there are not 1.4 billion Mormons in the world. They don't arm themselves and attack others.

Scrutinize Mohammed, in the light of his claims. "I am the final Messnger of God" Do some research on the life of John the Baptist, of Christ, look at their behavior, words, actions. See also the Prophets like Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea. Most prophets acted 'symbolically' with the notable exception of Elijah at Carmel, all the prophets would 'speak, and leave it up to the king' They didn't zip off and rally their tribe and go on a murderous rampage.

Reason, there ARE ....HUGE differences between the traditions.

Redneck is not a Christian (by his own confession) so don't expect him to have anything but the 'community sentiment' re Islam, and community sentiment is usually pretty coarse. (no offense Redneck)

Hi Reason, and welcome. Unfortunately this thread has our eponymous redneck and Boaz_o the crusader all a-lather - but don't be deterred from contributing: some of us (a bit perversely, perhaps) enjoy eliciting their strange and odious fantasies and bizarre theories from them. We rationalise this as constituting at worst a kind of benign outing, while at best an entertaining reflexivity about a critical global dilemma.

It has to be useful to see how those who support, inflame and maintain conflict justify themselves, at the very least.

Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. Consider just two issues: 1. Muslims deny the diety of Christ. 2. The Bible says God loves the Jews, in fact, the Jews are the apple of God's eyes. In Islam, Jews (and Christians) are cursed and are to be killed, Muslims are not even to be their friends. How can the Muslims claim that Allah and the Christian God are one and the same? Is God asking the Muslims to kill those He loves?

Samdin,

Please refer to my post above to Sells. In Islamic faith: Muslims, Christians and jews worship the same God and have the same God because in our faith there is no other Gods. Refer in my posting above to source of the word Allah (also used for God) in the Arabic bible and church services until today for Arab Christians.

Myth 1: The Qu’ran curses the Jews
The Qu’ran only critizes the jews who do not follow the Mosaic law or toy / manipulate it the four areas mentioned in my posting to Sells (see above).

Myth 2: The Qu’ran hate Christians
Any Christian on this forum (Philo/BD) can quote you what the Qu’ran says about Christians. The qu’ran loves the followers of Jesus and we, Muslims consider ourselves followers of Jesus as well. It is Jesus (PUH) who is come back to us at the end of time and not Mohamed (PUH). Muslims and Christians hold the belief that Jesus 's second coming to 'fight' (Like that word BD?:):) the Anti-Christ and peace will reign on earth for years to follow.

The only criticism in the qu’ran to Christians is for them blurring the first commandment “God is One” with the introduction of the Trinity doctrine.
AK

Hey-ho Redneck!
You asked a question? The only question was – “Intolerant”, MrReason? (to be exact). So where is the question? Most of what you have to say is some kind of babble against something you don’t understand, have no depth of knowledge about and fear because big brother tells you to.

As to “your peoples enemies” – that kind of thinking was supposed to die out with slavery and it’s narrow-minded hysteria. Sad to see it’s still alive and well. Fortunately, in the medium to long run, people will overcome their selfishness and belief that different doesn’t mean threat. Sooner, when people like you pass. But then, I don’t hope someone blows you up redneck. I hope you have a long peaceful life, perhaps contemplating the hate and intolerance you bring to this world (yeah right! And the US will become a nation of truth!).

Superior western culture? You are kidding? No, I thought not. Sounds very Nazi. And just look at the largest consumers of porn, child abuse, obesity. There’s more but only 350 words. How on this weird earth can you call western culture superior? I’m white and although there are plenty of good things from the west, there are plenty of bad. Again, it’s your kind of thinking (just like the bombers you hate) that causes so much strife. Grow up.

As for real debate. Your slagging does not constitute a debate. I rant in response to your rants. Produce some factual, verified data and I will respond. But I don’t think it will happen. You have no basis to hate. No one ever does.

Boaz…
I’ve read a few of your posts. Seems you have some fix on the issues. However I don’t think one interpretation is a summary of the issues. To deny western complicity in creating the current situation with Islamic extremism is like not blaming the fuel for the fire. If less exploitation occurred, the Muslim community may be more ready to deal with the extremist issue. No history class can refute (or prove granted) this.

I've had some complaints that parts of this thread constitute flaming. I don't think it is there yet, but it is getting close. Can I suggest that if you are going to preach tolerance then that is what you should practice as well? Otherwise I will suspend for flaming. We have some great conversations on these threads, but sometimes they can get aggressive to a level that might be acceptable to some, but deter many more others.

The question was, my dear ‘Reason”. What is wrong with being “intolerant” to people who want to stone me to death?

And people have no enemies? Strewth, looks like every country in the world should just disband it’s Army, Navy and Air Force because you say that enemies do not exist. Yeah, sure. What’s it like dancing down in the garden with the fairies?

And only “Nazi’s” approve of western culture. Hmmm. You seem to have a problem with Nazis. It’s funny how people like you disapprove of “stereotyping’ and “prejudging”, but you are never slow to engage in it yourself. So, you can claim that “Nazis” are bad but scream blue murder when I do the same thing to “Muslims”. Ever heard of the word “hypocrisy”?

Western culture is the guiding force of the word. Even the Russians and Chinese have given up on their stupid economic systems and have embraced the Western model. Most of the Asian nations were smart enough to do the same and those that copied us are getting along just fine. It is the Islamic world and the black African world which are basket cases, Mr “Reason.”

On a recent Lateline programme an American commentator gave the real reason for the shocking human relations now existing between Christianity and Islam. It is not entirely religion. He did not mention the term “blowback” but the term itself was originated by the CIA who warned that their tactics against Middle East nations, and certain Third World countries could cause international friction in the future.

The above would not surprise anyone studying International Relations in our universities. As the US commentator pointed out, most Islamic terrorism has been carried out not by poor or destitute Muslims but by the more intellectual, including university students. Such was proven in 9/11 as well as the recent London bombings, and of course, every one knows bin Laden is related to the most respected of Saudi-Arabian families.

Many people desperately fed-up with news of Islamic attacks, would say either to close down our Humanities areas, or put the curriculums under surveillance, as was done in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

However, this would not get to the core of the problem, but only make it worse, because former students who had learnt in the universities about “blowback” and “payback” might also need to be quietened down with a warning.

On the other hand, this could give certain of our more zealous leaders a kind of satisfaction that the mention of a car-boot holding a bomb far bigger than one to fit a haversack, might keep our public more patriotic and forced to respect those already in power.

As intimated by the American commentator - part of the answer could be for both America and Britain to get out of Middle East territory admitting they’d only been in there since WW1 mostly for oil and strategem. And if our Forum wants more evidence of American plans to overlord the globe, Muslims included, think about the pre-9/11 White House publicised New World Order as well as the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Certainly not the way to maintain friendship between our world’s two largest religions.

Hi everyone!

Encyclopedia entries and some other academic resources on the concepts of dhimmitude, jihad and early Muslim Empires:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Islam-and-anti_Semitism#Dhimmi

"When Muslim armies conquered nations, they did not force people of the Book (a category including Jews) to convert to Islam. As dhimmis, Jews faced a greater level of tolerance under Muslim rule than under Christian rule."

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Dhimmi
"In the Middle Ages, the dhimmi concept was comparatively tolerant by the standards of the time."

Francis E. Peters, “The Early Muslim Empires: Umayyds, Abbasids, Fatimids,” in Marjorie Kelly, ed., Islam: The Religious and Political Life of a World Community (New York: Praeger, 1984), p.79

"By an exquisite irony, Islam reduced the status of Christians to that which the Christians had earlier thrust upon the Jews, with one difference. The reduction in Christian status was merely judicial; it was unaccompanied by either systematic persecution or blood lust, …[and] unmarred by vexatious behaviour."

John L. Esposito, section on “The Crusades”, Chapter 2: Roots of Conflict, Cooperation, and Confrontation, The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality, 1999, pp. 39-41.

"Under the Muslim rule [in Jerusalem], Christian churches and populations were left unmolested. Christian shrines and relics had become popular pilgrimage sites for Christendom. Jews, long banned from living there by Christian rulers, were permitted to return, live, and worship in the city of Solomon and David. Muslims built a shrine, the Dome of the Rock, and a mosque, the al-Aqsa, near the Wailing Wall, the last remnant of Solomon’s Temple, and thus a site especially significant to Judaism. Five centuries of peaceful coexistence were now shattered by a series of holy wars which pitted Christianity against Islam and left an enduring legacy and misunderstanding."

On JIHAD:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/nayeefa/Jihad.doc

P.S. Another newspiece from BBC on Jihad:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711003.stm

"Pakistan clerics explain 'jihad'

"Pakistan's top Muslim clerics have said it is becoming increasingly difficult for them to preach the real concept of jihad, or holy war, to young Muslims.

"The situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine is radicalising young people," says Mufti Rafi Usmani, one of Pakistan's highest-ranking clerics.

"And an angry young man is in no-one's control," he said.

Other high-ranking Islamic scholars have also endorsed these views."

Peace...

Today is International Day of Prayer for Persecuted Women around the World. The top 50 countries to act with violence, or suppress the lives of women are:
1. North Korea
2. Saudi Arabia
3. Vietnam
4. Laos
5. Iran
6. Maldives
7. Somalia
8. Bhutan
9. China
10. Afghanistan
11. Yemen
12. Turkmenistan
13. Pakistan
14. Comoros
15. Uzbekistan
16. Entrea
17. Myanmar (Burma)
18. Egypt
19. Sudan
20. Libya
21. Iraq
22. Azerbaijan
23. Morocco
24. Brunei
25. Nigeria (North)
26. Cuba
27. Russian Federation (Muslim)
28. Tajikistan
29. Sri Lanka
30. Djibouti
31. Mexico (South)
32. Tunisia
33. Qatar
34. India
35. Nepal
36. Colombia (Conflict areas)
37. Indonesia
38. Algeria
39. Turkey
40. Mauritania
41. Kuwait
42. Belarus
43. United Arab Emirates
44. Oman
45. Syria
46. Bangladesh
47. Jordan
48. Kenya (North East)
49. Ethiopia
50. Bahrain

One instance: three Indonesian Christian housewives are charged with “child endangerment” for conducting three Christian holiday classes for children, penalty - five years imprisonment. The children coloured texts depicting the stories of Abraham, Noah, and Lazarus, sang Christian songs, were taught Christian prayers and the story of Jesus. The housewives provided snacks for the children and gave prises for memory work, like pencils, a towel containing a picture of Jesus, and a writing book with a picture of Noah. They also visited a theme park, a zoo; and a swimming pool and gave the children a tee shirt with the logo of their church. Most of the children were from Christian families attending the Church, but because the children also invited children from Muslim families they have violated Criminal Law Section 53, Clause (1), section 86 Law No. 23, 2002 Concerning the protection of Children, Section 55 which says: Any person who purposely uses deception, lies or enticement to make a child choose another religion not of his own free will… will be prosecuted by imprisonment for five years and / or a fine of; 100,000,000 Rupiah. (A $13,760)

Does Indonesia a democratic Muslim Nation supposedly tolerant of other religions persecute women? You bet!

TOPIC

the “anti-foundationalist” discourse of post-modernism

Yes, I’ve had long debates with our ‘post modern’ and atheistic friends on this matter. In a nutshell, anti foundationalism is saying ‘situational ethics’ and there are no moral absolutes, or foundations which have divine authority.

The obvious outcome to the honest thinking person who realizes they are in this world for ‘n’ years is to maximize their pleasurable and beneficial experiences, and seek ultimate power at the expense of every other human being (nihilism and hedonistic existentialism) Most of course don’t do this with ‘fundamentalist’ zeal, culture and the police hold them back, but it does not change the philosophical ‘foundation’ on which their shaky lives are based.

“the Judeo-Christian tradition once supported divine right monarchies and political absolutism,”

The “Tradition” might have, but Jesus said “You neglect the commands of God to observe your OWN traditions” (Mark 7)

So, the issue is not ‘tradition’ but the TEACHING of God. The concept of ‘monarch’ in Israelite society, was not with Gods blessing and this is abundantly clear, so any idea of monarchial divine right came from just one source.... the monarch.

“free-market capitalism is seen by many as morally bankrupt and a euphemism for neo-economic imperialism”

Yes, I’m one of those who sees it that way, because it is. Morally bankrupt and is without question the new form of imperialism/colonialism, old shirt, new Rinso.

“Contrary to Huntington’s hypothesis, the clash of competing national, regional political and strategic interests, and socio-economic issues, rather than civilisational hostility, play the dominant role in the conflicts between the West and the Muslim world”

A mouthful, but key words are “Political and Strategic Interests” i.e. ‘We wanna rule YOU, rather than you rule US” hmmm as if that hasn’t been around ‘since the world began” .

Nayeefa, no amount of academo-babble :) will change the body count or the reason for it:

“Fight them in the way of Allah” (i.e. If ‘Islam is being attacked in Afghanistan, all muslims in the world have a duty and a right to fight the ‘source’)

Well, you've all won me, how could anyone fail to be moved by this in depth discussion and such convincing evidence. I've changed my mind, I hope your god is real and as you all say that you worship the same god, then there should be no problem. If it is true, then I hope the second coming comes soon, so that your Jesus can sit on judgment. I am sure that he will say, dear religious ones, thank you for your stupidity; thank you for the destruction you have heaped upon the world God/Allah created for you to look after and enjoy. I thank you for all the native animals god/Allah created that you have destroyed in the name of self gratification and greed. I also thank you for how well you have destroyed the clean and well balanced environment Allah/god created for you all to look after. I your Christ, also thank you for the way my followers have stuck up for me and decimated those that objected. My dearest religious ones, for all this good work, you have been promised a place where you all can be together, to continue the way of life you have brought to Allah/gods creations and continue the way you represent and protect our fathers works. You will have warmth and continuous daylight to give you the opportunity to rejoice in your Saviour forever, in everlasting life. I can see that you are not happy within this creation of god/Allah's, for none of you can settle down to peace and harmonious living. Therefore for all your good works, I shall move all my followers to that place they dream of, heaven. You have made but one mistake my loyal subjects, you got the name of heaven wrong. Its real name is, SOL and as with all of gods revelations, you but have to look up and you will see your heaven, enjoy many summers there, oh true believers.

Dear Fellow_Human

Sorry I did not respond to your posting earlier. I am only a very occasional visitor to this site.

1 Allah is a generic word for God (before Islam, pagans used it), it can be referred to any god. The word Allah in the Arabic Bible refers to the Trinity.

2 Allah curses the Jews because of their rejection of Mohammed and his religion (Sura 4:46 Allah has cursed them (the Jews) because of their unbelief). Rejecting Mohammed and his religion means also rejecting their interpretation of the Torah. The Jews are cursed because they said Allah’s hand was chained (weak) (Sura 5:64 May they be cursed for what they say.) Because the Jews rejected their interpretation of the Sabbath, Allah cursed the Jews (Sura 2:65 You shall be changed into detested apes). Again, Sura 9:14 Make war on them (Jews), Allah will chastise them through you and humble them. Allah, in the Koran, has given numerous instructions to harm the Jews. Are the Jews the apple of Allah’s eye?

Same God?

3 In the Koran Allah tells the Muslims not to be friends with the Jews and Christians (Sura 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends and protectors…. Whoever of you seeks their friendship and supports them shall become one of their number.). Sura 9:29 Fight against such of those (unbelievers) … who…. do not embrace the true faith (Islam), until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. Sura 9:73 Make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. In the Bible, Christians are instructed to love their neighbours as themselves; Romans 12.14 bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse. Matthew 5:44 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

The Koran rejects the deity of Christ. Same God?

4 Muslims and Christians hold the belief that Jesus’ second coming to fight the Anti-Christ. True, but according to Islam, Jesus will do more than that, he will return to break the Cross (Christians), kill the pigs (Jews)…

Same Jesus?

If interested, visit www.answering-Islam.org

Some excellent posts here providing in-depth and useful knowledge. However your discussion ultimately comes to nothing more than going around in circles. You need to see things from another angle.

May the truth set us free.

Like to start a new religion?

It is not as difficult as you may think. Consider these:-

o It is wise to spin off another established religion. You are more likely to succeed and it is more credible that way. And better, you can claim that your new religion is a 'revised', hence improved version of the other one. You know, like buying computer software, always go for the later version with less bugs.

o Make sure to start preaching to the poor and simple-minded. There are a lot more people like that and they are far less questioning. Provide teachings which discourage both materialism and open-mindedness. This will help to keep the poor simple-minded and be compliant. Such people are easy to manipulate and they are valuable grassroot of the faith.

o To ensure success, make sure your theology is sweetened and bias in favour of man. Top up with nicety such as allowing man to marry multiple wives.

o You will get sympathetic hearing by saying nice thing about children. So preach that children are gifts of god. This will encourage more children to be borned in families of believers. That way your followers will increase in number faster than you'd think.

o Let man be the master in a marriage and decree that the primary duty of women is to breed. This will enhance sexual pleasure of man, instill a sense of duty in sexual relationship and directly propel the number of followers upwards.

o Emphasis the virtue of a united family and brotherhood. Then enforce family value in the faith. Those who refuse to abide by the faith are no good for the cause and they should be cast out of the family. This threat alone will ensure utmost compliance and obedience. This way your followers will increase in strength due to family ties and brotherhood, faster than you'd imagine.

continued...

o Have a guilty consience like any other religion but do not go too heavy on sins because people are easily put off by that. Therefore on one hand preach about repentence of sins, on the other advise believers that no matter what sins they commit, they are guaranteed a place in heaven if they die for the faith. It is as simple as that.

o Make this a forceful religion that reflects the power of god. Simple-minded men tend to appreciate the use of force and are generally attracted to power and strength. Hence sanction killings under quite a few scenarios but also provide simple yet convincing justifications for the simple-minded. Justify destroying anything that opposes the religion. That's a lot of authority and power in the hands of a believer.

o Spell out regimental but simple daily routines that believers can perform which will make them psychologically closer to god whenever carrying out those routines. For instance praying in a certain godly manner - five times a day, at fixed time, facing a set direction, squat in a certain fashion, move hands and bow in a manner pleasing to god.

o Specify clothing and appearance that supposedly pleases god. A bit like putting on uniform which makes a person feels a momentous sense of duty. This helps in team spirit and brotherhood solidarity, a very important factor in strengthening the religion.

o Provide an easily identifiable target and name an enemy of the religion. The best is another race of people who has always been competitor economically and are hated anyway. This provides an important rally point for followers and a better sense of religious purpose.

o Dish out hopes but also spell out the requirements which directly propel the expansion of the religion. For example, those who dies for the religion are quaranteed a place in paradise with heavenly virgins.

o Make a requirement that believers are to spread the religion.

to be continued...

GZ... your analysis of Islam is most accurate and insightful.

Sounds like you might have come from Malaysia :) ?

continue ....

o Most people are drawn to hating one's enemy and listen to why the hatred is justifiable. Therefore make sure you do not preach love towards one's enemy because most people cannot grasp the logic. Rather, make enemy acceptance of the faith a prerequisite for compassion towards them.

o Implement simple laws that are effective in the eyes of man. For example, adulterous women are to be stoned to death. Craft the law so that it is very hard for women to dispute the allegation. This way they will fear man and be at the mercy of man. Man likes such laws as they are effective in subjugating women.

o Make confident claims that you have obtained words directly from god. Then decree that it is blasphemous to doubt your authority from god. This will help to remove any doubter.

In order to survive, then conquer and plunder, that's how Mohammad cunningly plotted and established Islam. I kid you not. There is NO god called Allah and Mohammad is only a messenger of his own imagination.

Mohammad only started out to destroy the Jews, the arch enemy of the Arabs. Never in his wildest dream did he imagined Islam would spread like uncontrollable weeds that it did. This is much more than he had bargained for. He'd be turning in his grave laughing ha ha ha...

But don't you Muslims be disheartened. Now the messenger of the true god has finally emerged. You see, just like the Jews, Muslims have gone astrayed from the truth too, due to some of the fouled teachings of Mohammad.

The true god is in fact Halla and his true messenger is Dammahom (pbuh: peace and blessings upon him). Dammahom (pbuh) will now lead Muslims to the right path, the path of Malsi (meaning- Submission to Halla). Fortunately if you know Islam than you already know a lot about Malsi which is similar to Islam in many ways. In Malsi, Mohammad is regarded as a prophet with a higher status than Jesus but lower than Dammahom (pbuh).

According to Dammahom (pbuh), Halla now demands that all Muslims must accept the correct version of Koran (known as Narok), repent their deeds as a result of fouled teachings, and progress their salvation by accepting the path of Malsi. Henceforth Muslims will be known as Milsums.

I bear witness there is no God but Halla (the compassionate one) and Dammahom (peace and blessings upon him) is his messenger !!

[Moderator: Poster warned for circumventing word limit checks. Repeat violation will lead to account suspension.]

To moderator,
Thank you for allowing my postings (without pruning the text) on what I believe is important anecdotal evidence of the falsehood of Islam. A view/perspective which I hope will be helpful to a lot of confused people especially when Islamic terrorism has become a very important issue. And there will be no more violation.

To BOAZ_David,
Thanks for being interested in where I may have come from. No confirm or denial from me. Cheers.

I'm curious about this article because I am having to answer exactly the same question for the University subject I am undertaking.

Neither Fukuyama or Huntington offer comprehensive understandings of the aspirations of Muslim societies, however neither author wrote their original theses with the Muslim world at the forefront of their minds. Both pieces were written in response to the fall of Communism and without the benefit of the debate within and about Islam that has raged since 9/11.

Withstanding these limitations, both authors offer some useful commentary on the aspirations of Muslims. Huntington discusses the resentment of those in the Muslim world who are thrusted with Western ideals, whilst Fukuyama discusses the appeal of liberal democracy and market economies to those who want to modernise.

However, the biggest issue I have with this article is the labelling of the IRA and Hamas as "so-called terrorist organisations"? Now whilst Hamas might have filled a social welfare void where the PLO and PA have failed, their objective of destroying Israel and tactics of brainwashing the vulernable to commit acts of mass murder against innocent civilians using methods designed to inflict maximum casualties makes them a terrorist organisation.

To call either organisation anything else is an insult to their victims and legitimises the acts of violence that groups like Hamas celebrate so proudly.

On the topic of inconsistent approaches by the US to violations of UN resolutions by Israel and Iraq one thing needs to be pointed out. The resolutions against Israel were non-binding, those against Iraq were.

I bear witness there is no God but Halla (the compassionate one) and Dammahom (peace and blessings upon him) is his messenger !!

GZ Tan,
Your attitude is becoming offensive. If you have no answer or intelligent contribution to the subject please refrain from the rediculous.