Ringtail, thanks for your kind words. I hope I am not about to blow it :( . Before I proceed can I make it clear that I recognise and sympathise with you for the violence you and others have suffered. It is inexcusable.

Where to from here. I'd like to see a removal of gender from a lot of the family violence material. Lets condem all family violence and make it clear that it is never acceptable.

I'm one of those "extremists" who can see the possibility that family violence may not actually be divided on a gender basis. Once you see how the stats are being misused and look at some of the alternative info there is plenty to support the possibility. Family violence is difference to community violence.

For everybody.
Timkins appears to be copping a caning for using links to reports and stats. Whilst I don't share his love of christian sites I do believe that in the current topic stats are very relevant. Anecdotal evidence does not cut it when you are talking about the misuse of stats. Working at a womens shelter will not tell you about the men who suffer from DV nor will it give you a realistic impression of the percentage of families where women are abused. It will show you the pain of a proportion of victims.

I've previously posted links and excepts from what I hope are independent sources (abused child trust, child abuse clearing house, etc) dealing with rates of child abuse as well as some info from a study into the rates of DV. No-body has ever come back with any attempt to show the material was flawed or biased. Likewise I have refered to a book by feminist author "Patricia Pearson". Again no attempt to deny the validity of the material. At the same time posters continue to claim that DV and child abuse are overwhelmingly committed by men.

Anybody want the links again and then try and show where the material is flawed (apart from disagreeing with your perceptions)?

Ringtail,

the most important thing between men, women and humanity, is love and respect. Mutually inclusive and one cannot exist without the other (l think that may be a tautology ).

However, within the context of the article, l think that focus may be an attempt to change the subject. That's ok by me, afterall its what l did in my previous post.

Your view about being independent is, in my experience, quite a rarity amongst women (and not that common amongst men either). Its usually just hype.

If l can find a woman who is happy to be the bread winner, have a child and ALLOW me to stay home and raise that child, whilst l run my home based business (its the type of business that can withstand many interruptions), then l certainly won't let her pass me by without a considerable effort on my part.

:) trade

Feminism Vs Science and the Law

There is much confusion about whom to believe in the debate about spousal violence. On one side we have gender activists who rely on law enforcement statistics. On the other side we have social scientists who rely on scientifically structured studies.

Unfortunately, the results of scientific studies do not receive media attention. America’s press is seemingly more interested in political correctness than scientific accuracy. Therefore, the public perception, and the perception of many well-intentioned domestic violence activists, is radically skewed away from the more balanced perception of social scientists.

Here is a comment on the subject from a judge who asked for our report.

Dear Revs. Sewell

Thanks for the interesting information. I am a judge in xxxxx who regularly hears requests for domestic violence orders of protection. The DV issue has been politicized big time in our area. We judges are ordered to attend "consciousness raising" seminars where we are harangued by feminist "experts". Supervising judges have been courted and won over, and now we have annual breakfasts honoring judges who cooperate with the feminist "agenda".

As a former prosecutor and divorce lawyer I know that the best deterrent to violence by human beings is arrest, prosecution and appropriate consequences. With well-prepared cases, vigorous prosecution, and no nonsense consequences the cycle of abuse can be broken, no matter who the abuser is. Humans become habitual abusers because they get away with it. It is impossible to make progress in reducing domestic violence until we recognize that women are violent.

As a member of an advisory committee for the local shelter I was shocked at the attitudes of the ladies who ran the center: The ONLY solution championed by the shelter was to get free from that big bad male. The committee expressed concern about the underlying anti-male bias which even showed up in the name of the shelter and recommended that the name be changed to The Center for Victims of Abuse - rather than Women’s Strength.

....

Judge xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx

Ringtail,
You have told me what I should do (eg. “shut your mouth” and “do something positive”), and you have also labelled me a “little misogynist”, and inferred that I am not a “real” man. That goes along with calling me “juvenile” “subversive”, “extremist” etc. This is verbal abuse, and if this was a domestic situation, it could be classified as domestic violence.

You were not ordered to do anything, but because you have not liked my previous reference links, I asked you to provide links that I should reference, and also said please:- (eg .”so could you please supply a list of web-sites that I can reference.”)

Robert,
From the article at http://ssl.capwiz.com/usatoday/bio/userletter/?letter_id=340501246&content_dir=y

"usually judges are not required to make a finding of domestic violence in
civil protection order cases."In other words, judges saddle fathers with restraining orders
on the wife's say-so without any investigation as to whether it is true or false.

This "game" is based on the presumption (popularized by VAWA and
the domestic-violence lobby) that fathers are inherently guilty and dangerous.”

The domestic violence order helps ensure the mother will get custody of the children, plus more of the property settlement, but there need not be any physical evidence provided that domestic violence has actually occurred. It appears the same situation is quite common in Australia also, although less reported.

I would think that the rates of domestic violence are exaggerated, but where it occurs it should be regarded as relationship violence, and in some cases associated with mental illness. Once domestic violence is regarded as “gendered” violence, all types of bias and discrimination can be incorporated.

However organisations such as the taxpayer funded Australian Domestic Violence Clearing House (http://www.austdvclearinghouse.unsw.edu.au/) are filled with people who regard domestic violence as being “gendered” violence, and also filled with people who carry out highly biased and unethical research studies. It is not surprising that their recent studies will often refer to previous studies that are over a decade old, but will routinely ignore more recent studies, such as recent studies into de facto relationships, child abuse etc.

Trade215

Really appreciated your response. Yes, love and respect are important sentiments, however I was thinking of something far more fundamental and basic. The one thing that grinds men and women together and tears us apart – luscious, libidinous lust. Our basic physical attraction for each other. Our fundamental need for each other has perpetuated the species homo sapiens and will continue to do so. So much for the separatists.

As little as ten years ago we would not have been discussing issues like DV with strangers from a safe distance as in this forum. True, things can get heated but the important thing is we are communicating like never before – this can only be a good thing. I don’t let the extremists get to me. They don’t know me. I really enjoy the variety of perspectives that dialogue with people like yourself has given me.

Your comment about dependant women; there are a lot more women like me who are self-reliant (maybe you have been seeing the wrong women ;-)). I am fiercely independent and for good reason. If my current partner leaves me, I still have my own home, my own source of income – I can stand on my own two feet no matter what happens.

An antidote to DV is financial independence – women are often trapped and at the mercy of their partner if they are not working and have children. Parents male and female should not be dependent on their partners for every little thing – such situations are too easy to exploit by the control freaks of this world.

Cheers

Ringtail and others

I have been sitting quietly reading the posts and "listening" to the emotion that this article has generated. I have not responded recently for fear of "ad hom ... " criticism that has been levelled at me in the past in another article post (on an equally emotive subject). I thought it best to keep my mouth shut and try to critically reflect upon different viewpoints. I have done this. I acknowledge all viewpoints - no matter how over the top they may seem to me at times.

I would like to be concrete for a while. I think the notion of domestic violence is filled with stereotyping, vis a vis: heterosexual marriage, subservient female, working class, poverty line, and some children. Surely we all know that is not true.

I think some new definitions need to come into play (I am not saying I have them). Domestic = ? in the home, around the family home. Violence usually connotes some form of physical aggression. The notion that there is DV in this room is rather over the top for me - as some posters have suggested. Clearly, there is no doubt that there is evidence of verbal abuse between posters - which in itself says a lot about the posters and the emotive aspects of this subject.

For me it is not a gender issue. I just like people. And yes, I have been a victim of violence perpetrated by ex husband of 13 years. I was the breadwinner. The Family Law Court has me paying him maintenance until he is 65 years of age.

I hold both feminist and traditional values - and I am definitely not a man hater - far from it.

I think we need to examine the notion of "abuse" as opposed to violence, for example: elder abuse. I think if we do this - then the male versus female battering debate might take on a different light. Just a thought.

Cheers
Kay