A pity that the article, even though presenting lots of rational thought, tended to promote "gut-feeling" over rationality.

It is hardly rational to prepare a plan of action based on information obtained under extreme duress - the answers given are totally unreliable. No front-line batallion commander worth his salt would endanger his troops that way. And no leader of any other branch of society who is worthy of his/her position would rely on such information.

Demeaning our society by matching some of the worst habits of an opponent might give some individuals a glow of satisfaction. The price for that will be increased difficulty in combating terrorism

Do you think that the passengers on the planes involved in 9/11 faced torture,how would you feel if you know that you are going to die in a horrible death never to see loved ones or family again,half of the passengers would have died before the impact of shock or heart attack,etc,etc.
If a terreriost suspect was in cusody and he new plans of a plot to kill many innocent Australians somewhere in this counrty,i would do things to him that would make the devil himself sick,i would torture untill he became numb,all to obtain details TO SAVE INNOCENT AUSTRALIANS'
Think about that the next time little children are killed.

Al Bundy - how would you know:
1 - the person you have in custody knows about the supposed plot, and
2 - the information provided under torture is reliable
In committing torture you are no better than your "terrorist"

As i said tell that to the parents of lost kids and familys and freinds of loved ones.
When are you selfish libratarains going to crawl back under the rock from which you came.

That still doesn't explain how torture is going to produce the result you expect.

With you Rossco on this one, and with a post name like Al Bundy, why should you be taken seriously? You can scream all you like about children being victims of terrorism/war/serial killings, like adults, they have no say in what they've been caught up in. It all sucks. Torture is for sick humans doing a torture/maybe murder, it can never be justified from any angle by a govt. If the human being doing it (on the ground) wants to go there, well that's another story. Whether it be a career path in the armed services or your own little thing. Not on my resume honey!

I really, really wanted to torture and slowly kill the Anita Cobby killers nearly 20 years ago, just for the question "why?" a) I wasn't given access to them' two)they are moldering away nicely in jail and; three)it wouldn't have changed anything except my life. Hers was gone anyway. I don't take torturing lightly at all, I just don't think you can agree with it on a "state / country basis against "other people" and then bitch about it happening to oneself, if one is in the wrong circumstance. The beauty about being a human is that we should all afford ourselves the same rights, criminal stuff included. But torturing? it's tempting. But gutter stuff. I'd like to think that, as a race, we are trying not to stoop to that low toward any individual. It is within us all to choose what level we feel justified in stooping to. If we accept torture of any human, either in an individual or "war" situation, we are just buying into the history that allows us to keep "morally" repeating our barbarianism toward our own race. Hardly enlightened. Condoning state torture is but a footstep away from turning your back upon a murder and doing nothing about it because you won't be called as a witness because it's state sanctioned. Hope it's not you or me

No one is denying that the 9/11 attacks were not horrific. What this thread is attempting to deal with (IMO) is the use of torture to obtain information. My opinion is that torture cannot be condoned EVER. The USA for a lot of years was seen as a country with high morals, and always was seen as doing the right thing. Now that is not so evident. Prison scandals in Iraq and G Bay are clear indicators of the fall from those morals, all in the name of "fighting terrorism". Just because you lock someone up, how do you really know that that person is guilty? Torturing someone may get you what you want, but any admission made under duress of torture surely cannot be taken as "gospel".

It's obvious you are an American (most likely republican) by your name and commentary and name-calling against other posters here. Unfortunately that seems to be the American way these days, as if you don't agree with the Bush admin policies, then you are called anti- American, scum etc. I know, cos I am an Aussie living in the "land of the free"...my advice to you "Al", is to be a little less nasty in your commentgs. You'll get a lot more respect if you tone it down and actually address the thread subject. Cheers!

Thank you for your thought provoking article Matthew.

I used to think that "an eye for an eye" was the way to go. Not so these days.

After I was gang raped in 1993, my male friends and male family members were intent on murdering or torturing - or both re the perpetrators.

I am glad that they did not do either.

People who commit horrendous crimes do not deserve physical/mental torture strategies - as in bashing etc. Rather, they deserve physical and mental isolation from all other people - that should be their real torture for the remainder of their lives. They should have to live alone without any human contact.

I don't think that the state should ever authorise the use of torture for the same reason I don't think they should ever authorise euthanasia. Where does it stop? The second you legalise it, the goal posts have moved and the argument continues to go a step further. In the end you're being tortured to reveal why you haven't put your tax returns in, or being euthanised for a persistant cough.

Similarly if a situation arose (and you would think it would be extremely unlikely) that the torture of a person is necessary for the protection of life, then I wouldn't be marching in protest. Doctors have been euthanising people forever, and that's fine as long as the person being terminated has asked for it. It's when the government gets involved that the whole situation becomes very scary.

Anyone who says that they wouldn't want the person who kidnapped their child tortured to reveal the location of that child is either Jesus Christ Himself, an idiot, or a liar.

Once again i am surounded by libratarians,go and ask what the Australian public think about your comments,OH BUT-WAIT YOU MAY HAVE TO GET OF YOUR COMMPUTERS AND SEE THE OUTSIDE WORLD,if mass TERIOSISM comes to my counrty and nothing is done about,my God i would hate to be in a liberal pair of shoes,becouse its YOU people that will see a counrty rise up and deal with the threat(even john howard will see to it) so stop posting idiotic liberal comments,becouse when the suspects are cought tortured ,there will be nothing you can do about it,becouse there is Australians that wont stand for it,accept the fact that there are people,that you cant see or hear that will take care of our counrty and protect all ''AUSTRALIANS'',GO BACK TO YOUR WINE AND FINGER FOOD AND GIVE TO ANOTHER ''GREAT CHARITY'' AND LEAVE THIS TO REAL ''AUSSIES'' WHO WOULD DIE FOR THE PROTECTION OF THIS LAND.
Oh and by the way i am ''Aussie'' not a arrogant yank,i cant stand yankee world imperialist domination,the name al bundy comes from a tv show,to make a comment about my name,shows how immmature you are why,becouse you cant accept that torture will happen if a suspect is found in Australia with activities or knowlege,let the blood flow and protect our children from the horror, toture till there numb,toture to they understand that this country is not for sale and we are the greatest nation om earth,why,becouse theres n o way i will give up what my granfather (in a prison camp)was tortured and starved to death,the future of my children to live in a nation with freedom.

I think the fact that your poster name comes from a puerile Amercian sitcom character sums it up much better than your hysterical post. Go figure.

al bundy eh? Would love to follow your argument here, and when you learn to spell I'll try and read your posts.

Torture places us as a species as uncivilised, unevolved. There are humane methods to extract information.

Besides what kind of human being puts their hand up to be the torturer? Imagine the dinner party chit-chat, Oh And what do you do for a living?...... A party stopper that.

We don't need to condone this primitive and pointless behaviour.

Al
What a pathetic little rant that was. I suggest you go and have a cold shower, take a Bex and have a good lay down.
Can you name one scenario anywhere in the world of "mass terrorism" that you are so concerned about and say how torture would have prevented it. How would torture have stopped 9/11? America already had intelligence pointing to the 9/11 attack and the perpetrators but failed to act.

Your advocating torture makes you no better than the terrorists you are so worried about.
Get a life.

My spelling,is that all your got,i think you people have to much data on the brain,no more wasting my time responding to all you pathetic little people,thats want you want,your so stupid you need theorys of others just to sustain a oponion,GET OVER YOURSELF AND YOUR SELF IMPORTANCE,its a opinion,and one that will come to pass,see i am a wise man uducated in classics and theorys that you would have trouble understanding the title to,and as my teachings show,BEING WISE MEANS I DONT HAVE TO GET INVOLVED IN PATHETIC ARGUMENTS OF FOOLS, TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER AND MOVE ON-NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE!.

''DES DRITTEN REICHS SOLDAT''

An arrogant world-dominating Yankee imperialist view of torture:

Several of the replies here have not really answered the case for torture. These replies have been: it doesn't work.

Well, if it doesn't work, case closed.

The argument is: should we do it, if it DID work?

And, in my opinion, this question cannot be answered 'yes', because a 'yes' answer inevitably lends support to the use of torture in all circumstances, not just in the hypothetical ones set out in the abstract situation posed in the Philosophy 101 class.

So, NO, the state should not torture. Torture should not be used.

But ... there are things which are said, and not done. There are things which are done, and not said.

Adults in a such a terrible situation as that set out in the original argument will know how to act, without advertising a precedent for an increasingly-widening set of circumstances.

As for Mr Bundy, if he thinks he is ein Soldat des dritten Reiches, then I can see why he can't stand us arrogant Yanks [although I'm not overly-fond of Yankees as well, being a Southerner].

But then he shouldn't like you Australians either, since, as I recall, you played your part in the dismantling of the torture-Reich.

Doug

Rosscoe, I think Al Bundy need a bit more than a BEX. I'm thinking restraints.

2 comments and thats it-no more indulging you monkeys

DI-get back to the household and housework,pick up the kids from school and spend a little more of hubbys money,but mostly get a new life this is a political forum,it proves my point about one line remarks posted by someone that is a non-intelligent try hard (contact your 1900 physhic for a new reading,oh at $5.00 per minute),that has no idea on any subject whatsover,by the way do you think of your HIGHLY RESEARCHED,WELL WRITTTEN POSTS (I THINK YOUR A GENIUS)OR DO YOUR KIDS THINK THEM UP FOR YOU,you need them to turn your computer on for ya-dont ya-come on you can admit it.

DOUG-you say your a southerner and dont like yankees,that says that if slavery was still in force in the U.S. you would own a few ''black slaves''-i bet.that makes you a person that should not post anything political as what you believe is far from politics in the first instance, by the way your a CAPITILIST ''AINT YA''.
AND ALSO SEE TO IT THAT YOU GET YOUR QUOTES RIGHT-ITS-''des dritten reiches soldat'',not the backward jibberish that you had written.

No more for this subject-i am about to post a new comment for another article-SO LOOK OUT FOR IT AND I WILL SEE YOU THERE,AT A POST NEAR YOU.

al bundy continues to torture us all with his hate-filled and offensive rants.

Torture is not useful because:
a) The person being tortured may be innocent
b) The information extracted is not necessarily accurate or reliable
c) It lowers us to less than animals
d) It fosters more hatred
e) It encourages our most base emotions
f) Someone has to perform the torture - who would aspire to such a profession
and finally, as a result of all the above
g) It is morally reprehensible.

Trinity, what makes you think that Al Baby (sorry!) Bundy can read the alphabet unless it's swimming around in his bowl in front of him whilst he's restrained and drooling in his high chair? However, you addressed every point succintly and I got it. Absolutely right. Doug, you're a southerner? Hmmmm. would like to read more posts about your politics on this forum. Don't let the Bundy turn you off. He is now safely locked in the basement and I promise! He'll never see a full moon again. Keep posting.

I was wondering if Al Bundy was related to Ted Bundy the serial killer? Now there's a man a lot of families would like to have tortured in their darker moments. But as it has been said, how would they or we be different? The actions are the same,heinous, even if the motives are different.

Absolutely right on the nail Garra, all animals are equal, but some act worse than animals. I have had a major struggle with what to do with the likes of the Ted Bundy's of this world (and more recently, the Al's) and torture is tempting, (who hasn;t fantasied about putting someone in that place) but who justifies it? as was said by a previous poster. When does it become acceptable by anyone's standards? I think history has shown us that it's always been a bad thing in hindsight.

Di: I am indeed a Southerner, and a Confederate (Battle) Flag loving one too, although I haven't lived in my homeland for many years.

Which of my political views would you like to hear? I've already given my take on torture: that even if we grant that it might work, it is wrong to say so, because of the negative possible broader consequences of so doing.

I think my views on this are related to my views of the sacred: there probably isn't anything out there but matter-energy and space-time, yet in order to have a decent society, we must not state this too loudly, but rather must affirm a belief in a transcendent order.

That said, I don't go for any of the materialist attempts to explain consciousness -- I think it is a mystery. I know this contradicts the previous paragraph.

And your own views, Di? Australia has been in the news a lot, recently, mainly because of the terrible dillema of what to do with people seeking refuge there. In my opinion, it only lends additional urgency to the task of lifting the Third World out of poverty and despotism -- we have self-interested reasons to act altruistically. What do you think?

Actually Mr Bundy, we're both wrong, although you were wronger than me: the correct translation is "ein Soldat des Drittes Reichs". Sorry for the rustiness of my German.

Doug

Actually Di, that thought was from 'Gazza', not me. However, I confess to having had the same thought myself, but I rather uncharacteristically chose to keep it to myself. Maybe Gazza and garra are related?

I have also suggested previously that 'Al Bundy' has a roo or two loose in his top paddock. His claim (in pidgin German) to be a 'soldier of the Third Reich' seems to add weight to that suggestion.

Hi Gazza :D

Sorry to get you two 'G's mixed up. The good thing about it is that we have seemed to have excorcised the "Baby Al", note he has diminutised in my world! (No more spittle and froth on the inside of my monitor) Doug, very interested in your views. As an ex con-fed, where do you now live and what' falvoured real life. This is so off torture, but hey! Baby Al's off the scene!

Di: I live in England, and have done for the last thirty years. I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to 'real life'. Think of American Southerners as a distinct nation, or nationality, living [by force majeure] within the boundaries of a multi-national state.

Sort of like Welshmen within the UK. The situation being complicated by the fact that our geographical territory is shared with another nationality, namely, African-Americans. One hopes that over the centuries, these two nations will blend together via inter-marriage, a la Brazil [where there is a 'lost colony' of Confederates who have racially blended in completely, by the way]. But it hasn't happened yet.

Anyway, all this nationality stuff is moot, now. Southern nationhood is just something we old guys get sentimental about when we get together and are sitting around under our Confederate Flag, chemically altering our consciousness. The new world that's coming is going to be very different.