I notice a curious disjuncture between our defender of individual freedoms and responsibilities' repetitive and obnoxiously aggressive pronouncements, and the intrusion upon those freedoms and responsibilities by the various states that impose ineffective drug prohibition laws and draconian penalties upon those who transgress them.

If a law is stupid, and a penalty for transgressing therefore unjust, then as far as I can surmise it is an ifringement upon the rights of individuals who fall foul of it.

Col hasn't addressed my point that the worst thing about illegal drugs is that they are illegal.

His "friend" who died could well have found himslef in the same position as the "Bal 9", and Col tells us he would have abandoned him.

Ergo, Col was not really his friend.

Rees states "Justice demands that we do not keep quiet, that we articulate what due process and just outcomes might mean, anywhere, anywhen".

Very True, unfortunately Australians have many blind spots when it comes to the uniform application in articulating just outcomes. Its a very cock-eyed liberalism if ever there was one.

After posting you a "prat" Col, I almost re-posted apologising, but realised that it was probably the best and nicest four letter word I could come up with to describe your stance. Your subsequent postings have reinforced that. I think Garra put it most succinctly. You are a right wing +#@(

Di you wrote:

"My stance is that as they are not the Mr Bigs and only the mules, they do not deserve a bullet nor life in a Bali jail, but not a slap on the wrist either. Say, unpaid service with the ambos on a Saturday night plus time".

What a load. If these same mules were willing to sell drugs in Bali they would be willing to sell drugs and dirty needles in my street, to my kids, to your kids. If this happenned and they were caught by our own police, appeared in court and were convicted would we want them to do unpaid service with the Salvation Army on a Saturday night? Think again Di.

Okay Rainer, take your point. But, what sort of penalty should people that do these things get? Lock em up and throw away the key? I was taking the view that sometimes a reality check may work better, if these idiots could see first hand the cause and effect, it may get them thinking differently. For instance, with chronic speeders, a good idea to me (which has been touted) is to get them into the emergency ward on a Saturday night and be witness to the damage and grief that comes from speeding etc., not just fining and taking their license away. Yes, they may feel punished, but it wouldn't necessarily get them thinking outside their own little world. My experience is that people won't change the way they operate (whether in or outside the law) unless they experience some kind of an epiphany. Remorse is a often a pivotal emotion that raises the conscious need to change one's behaviour and if they get exposed to the consequences of their actions, this may well happen. Most people are good, but just go around doing bad things. That's not excusing bad behaviour by the way, but doing time with rehabilitation, or throwing the death penalty around apparently doesn't work, otherwise they'd be no one on death row. I'm all for exploring rehabilitative methods as I do not believe any State has the right to put to death any of their citizens.

Great post Di.

I took a mates son with me one Saturday night (stretched the work experience rules a tad) anyway, he saw first hand the effects of drugs and alcohol for that matter. He has a completely different attitude now - wants to be an ambo too! Still thats better than where he was going before.

These 'mules' usually destroy themselves in the process as well. They don't deserve a bullet but a reality check goes a long way. I don't have much sympathy for them but as Di says most people are good and wind up doing bad things - there's no one at this forum who could claim to be perfect model citizens all their lives.

When you talk to the kind of kids like the Bali 9 you discover they want the same things as the rest of us. They're young they have a chance to turn around their lives.

The drug lords are the problem - arresting the mules hasn't and doesn't work. They are too far up the food chain connected w/legit business and not so legit governments.