The Federal Police cannot run operations in a foreign country without the knowledge of the local authorities. Once local authorities are informed they obviously have control of the matter as the offence is taking place in their jurisdiction. The police in Bali arrested these offenders, not the Australian Federal Police.

The good professor throws the old chestnut of police corruption into the mix, is he suggesting that these 9 have been somehow “set up” by Australian Police? What rubbish. And the suggestion that the offenders should have been sat down and given a good old fashioned talking to by the police and then let go on their merry way is an absolute joke. These are serious crimes involving organized crime syndicates and millions of dollars, not to mention the absolute misery visited upon thousands of Australian lives touched by the scourge of drugs.

Professor Rees says that allowing the Bali 9 to be arrested in Bali does not contribute to the values of tolerance or public education. I would argue that it does both. It shows that Australia will not tolerate criminals who wish to poison our people with drugs, and it sure educates those idiots who are considering a career in drug smuggling that their career could be somewhat short.

Professor Rees displays an astounding lack of understanding of the views of the Australian public. Or maybe he just holds these views in contempt? Australians are sick and tired of pathetic sentences handed out to violent and serious criminals. The professors’ views of tolerance and leniency are just another way for these people to duck responsibility for their actions.

I do however, agree that the death penalty is totally inappropriate. Life imprisonment for them is also a tragic waste of young lives. But as any criminal will tell you - Don't Do the Crime If You Can't Do the Time.

Agree on some of your stances, Bozzie but not all. The Bali 9 is a bit of an expose into what is going on between more higher powers than the stupid morons that moved the stuff. My stance is that as they are not the Mr Bigs and only the mules, they do not deserve a bullet nor life in a Bali jail, but not a slap on the wrist either. Say, unpaid service with the ambos on a Saturday night plus time.

If the higher police powers in Aust were aware that these idiots were haplessly going to move the stuff, and then watch them step into the coalface so to lead them to Mr Big, whilst leting these stupid kids (and let's face it most of them are not hardened criminals) fall into the net of international drug syndicate... don't you suppose that the powers that be should not be throwing these kids to the wolves? And we'll separate the mules from the thoroughbreds. reading between the lines, certain Aust. powers knew how it was going to play out and let it happen. No one stopped these idiots at the airport and told them to go home and their visa wasn't valid. I'll bet the farm that these kids get the firing squad and Aust/Indonesian police still don't nail Mr Big. Stupidity at that age deserves a lot of things, but not a bullet. Meanwhile, what's happening at the top?

How many people may have died of drug related problems if those drugs got through. Sure go after the big fish but the mules have to be stopped to. Just think how we would react if another country did what the writer suggests, just because they don't like our brand of justice.

Just Mules? Caught before their deadly cargo was delivered, so go easy on them because they are not the Mr Bigs of the drug world?

That mentality would require that any suicide bomber, caught before they exploded their deadly cargo, should also be let go because they are not the top terrorists.

Drugs or Bombs: those mules all spread death. Catch them in the act: shoot them and be done with it!

This whole sorry saga of Schapel Corby and the Bali nine has a nasty stench about it.I don't think it was pure co-incidence that the Bali nine were sprung so soon after Schapel's court case.

You will probably find the real Mr Bigs of drugs both in Indonesia and Australia totally insulated.Rest assured,they won't be caught.

So why were these young boys sacrificed?Were they to be the counter balance that would grant Schapel a lesser sentence?Why did Mick Kelty almost white ant any suggestions of the Corby's defence that baggage handlers were involved in drug trafficing when he knew the exact opposite?Why did Mick Kelty discredit the statements of a South Australian prisoner to the effect that Schapel's body board bag was used as a vehicle for drugs from Brisbane to Sydney.On that very same day in which Schapel arrived in Sydney, we find that a shipment of cocaine passes through Sydney airport.

We will never stop people taking drugs.I'm told it only takes 3 hits of heroine to hook an addict and they will deny themselves food for a hit.

So long as there is a market, there will always be suppliers,and it is up to us, to educate potential users of their impending death.

I know I'm asking for it here, but I have to say that all the recent dope dramas just reinforce in me my belief that we would be much better off if recreational drug use was legalised and regulated. The genie's out of the bottle, folks - there is no way that prohibition stops the production, distribution or consumption of drugs anywhere.

IMHO, all that the current situation creates is grief for the weakest members of the chain (users and mules), corruption of our police, customs and international transport systems (not to mention the obscene waste of resources), and enormous profits for the kingpins of the drug world.

If recreational drugs were legal, we wouldn't have 9 young dumb Australians facing a firing squad in Bali, we wouldn't have baggage handlers being involved in cocaine importation (amazing that bust occurred on the very same day that Schapelle Corby's baggage went through Sydney Airport, huh?), we wouldn't have most of the Melbourne gangland murders etc etc etc, and we wouldn't be faced with the utter tragedy of the Corby farce.

Perhaps more profoundly, if we treated drugs rationally rather than moralistically, we could remove the profit and mystique that enslave equally their producers, importers, dealers, users and all those who seek to prevent their use.

Garra, you make a lot of sense, I hardly think the kingpins will be caught and quite frankly, pissant little drug traffickers are not the problem, just part of the trickle down effect. That's not condoning them by the way. There's a difference between being a knowing criminal where trafficking is a career and some stupid git that's caught up in it and should know better. Shooting the lot without any background knowledge is a bit wild west and offers no solution. After reading the latest in Shapelle's case, I am absolutely disgusted about Indonesia's narrow field of jursidiction (and they call it law). Schapelle would have a better chance of justice if she was busted in Salem two centuries ago with a black cat and a cauldron in her boogie board bag. I'm not only blackbanning going to Bali again (this is worse than the bombs in Kuta for an anti tourist ad), but I won't go OS again until I know that the scum baggage handlers in AUSTRALIA have been sacked, then hung, drawn and quartered and had their faces plastered on national TV. They are as much crims as the kingpins and much more accountable than idiot kids that should have known better. Who's more the organised crim?

Di,I totally agree.Scapelle Corby was hung out to dry,both by the Foreign Affairs Dept and the AFP.The moral of the story is that ,don't depend upon your Govt if you are in trouble in a foreign land.

We should all boycott Bali until the Indonesian Govt reforms not only their legal system,but also how their police collect evidence.

If Schapelle is convicted and goes to a Bali prison,I will gladly donate money to her mother to help in her appeal to in the Indonesian High Court.All her mother has to do is to give us a post office box and a name to whom the cheque be drawn.

I guess it comes down to understanding and giving agency to the relationships that exist between two sovereign countries and specifically on how their respective sovereignty’s interface politically.

We are faced with a classical situation whereby the evidence of crime is substantive and another where the evidence appears to be un-substantive and where contemporary notions of social justice differ between two nation states and is articulated through their legal jurisprudence.

It is in the interface between how each nation state recognizes their rightful place to administer laws that are made on behalf of their citizens to protect these same citizens to those within their boundaries to those that they find defying these laws within and without of their jurisdiction.

This confusion points to a need for a system of law to exist and arbitrate between nation states on civil matters. It is because of the total absence of this apparatus that we now find ourselves confused and perplexed.

The police and the foreign affairs department are now revealed for their obvious inadequacies in protecting the rights of citizens abroad, or those they have mistakenly deported. (see: Vivian Alvarez)

Garra says, "the recent dope dramas just reinforce in me my belief that we would be much better off if recreational drug use was legalised and regulated. The genie's out of the bottle, folks - there is no way that prohibition stops the production, distribution or consumption of drugs anywhere."

Not too much responsibility here - I can think of a number of people I either know personally or know of through others who are now schizophrenic as a result of marijuana usage.

Its not prohibition that will stop the distribution or consumption of drugs. The problem in the first instance is not one of production and distribution of drugs at all but that people choose to use them and therefore create the market for them.

All that can be hoped for, is public revulsion against drug usage (sadly, a long way off), and the disruption of the production and distribution cycle, which may save some lives from addiction and the consequential health problems. Actually, a pretty depressing scene all round.

I know this is slightly off-topic, but David's deployment of the marijuana/schizophrenia chestnut warrants a response. Correlation is not causation, and I'm yet to read an authoritative study that definitively establishes a causal link between marijuana use and schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is also strongly correlated with alcohol abuse, but that fact isn't nearly as widely promoted as its correlation with marijuana use. Perhaps schizophrenics simply seek to tame their demons with whatever substance is available?

On the other hand, to return to my earlier theme, imagine our society where the entire edifice of the drug black market and its futile prohibition apparatus is removed in one rational sweep. Imagine the radical reduction of petty crime that is currently committed to feed drug habits, the emptying of our gaols and the unclogging of our judicial system, the disappearance of junkie prostitutes from our streets, the demise of needle-borne diseases such as HIV and HCV.

I know this scenario has a snowflake's chance in hell of coming about - due mainly to the curious alliance of vested criminal and legal interests with right wing wowserism - but it's nice to imagine a better world that would actually be quite possible to achieve.

Garra, love your sentiments. It is curious how right wing wowserism does (no doubt inadvertantly) assist organised crime. No drug lords if drugs legal and controlled and the Bali nine - hapless sods - wouldn't be facing the death penalty.

Of course the Aust Fed Police could've done more, however it appears there is tacit approval for the death penalty and indeed torture by our government if it is applied on foreign soils. Guantanamo Bay springs to mind.

International Relations (for want of a better description). Like it or not, the Indonesians have their own 'justice' system. Whether you think it works, is corrupt or just odd, it's there's. Funny how some shake their head at the differences of others and point out the wrongness of them. Like how some of the extremist Muslims don't like the way most Westerners live. Are they right to force change? If you want that part of the world to change to your mode of thinking, go live there and work for change. We expect it of the people there but few seem to step up and move over, to help. When you travel, mostly it’s to see the differences in this world. If it were all the same, what would be the point (though the land itself would be nice I suppose). Until you live somewhere and know the culture, the reasons why a place is like it is, try to allow for the fact that they may think the same about us, as we do of them.

Ultimately the 9 must face their choices. And they knew what they were choosing. Claims of threats against their families and fear for themselves and others can always be dealt with – and must be if we want real change. But when we start blaming others for the wrongs we commit, I do think we are passing the buck and forgetting what it is to be responsible.

Quickly, on ‘recreational’ drugs. If there were suitable, reliable tests for those under the influence while in charge of dangerous things (e.g. vehicles, machinery), I would support the notion of legalised drug. Individuals should have choices – as well as accompanying responsibilities. I do believe the great demand for drugs only proves that people are not happy with life and hide in the drug. No 'recreation' can replace a real experience - and I know I will cop a few comments about the euphoric feeling and creativity drugs bring... well, what does it say that we need artificial assistance to bring on this feeling and creativity?

This article is a little premature – of a trial and a judgement for a start – so what is the point of making it? Some limp wrested idea that Australia should demand Indonesians should not pass judgement on Australians – maybe there are opinions as to who should judge illegal Indonesian fishermen found in Australian waters.

As for the Bali 9 – pre-emptively suggesting they are being unjustly treated because they were engaged in serious criminal activity (yes drug trafficking results in killing people and is frowned upon universally) in another country – I suggest we wait for the trial and when found guilt – as they most certainly are and then have a collection to buy the bullets for the firing squad.

Before we bother to create a moral crusade in the name of these walking slime balls and samples of human effluent and someone complains about my lack "compassion" for these “misguided innocents” let me explain -

My friend Michael, who died aged 19, over 30 years from a drug overdose, at least he can feel somewhat avenged knowing the traders in filth and misery will soon be breathing as much air as he is.

Col, the young eighteen and nineteen year olds are too young,naive and impressionable to be taken to field and shot like dogs.By all means do this to those at the top of the food chain,but they are more likely found in the Indonesian or Australian bureauracies.
Indonesia functions on corruption.It is an accepted daily practise.

Those who take drugs have to take personal responsibility also.There will be always drug pushers so long as there are drug takers.Ban one drug and people will find another.

Like you,I knew a wonderful well liked young 21yr old who died of a heroin overdose.It was a shock to us all,however ultimately, he made the decision to ruin his own life.

Yes Arjay, with you on this one. There is a whole food chain on this sorry little industry and shooting the lot like dogs is like scooping up fine avoiders in the same cell with Ivan Milat. There are levels of crime Col, and just because it's an area which touches your nerve should not be a knee jerk reaction which stops the fair trial process. Under the Westminster law, (thank God for some imports!) we have a system whereby the prosecution must find the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In Indonesia the opposite applies. The defendant must prove their innocence (within a narrow jurisdiction, ie: nailing someone else.) Drug dealer/Kingpins are scum, let's face it, drug mules are idiots/opportunistic and perhaps scum, baggage handlers in Aust that may or may not! knowingly stash stuff in unsuspecting tourist's bags are lower than the heel of my boot, (but hey, that's just my opinion), but the ones that stick a needle in their arm and will do anything to get the stuff are victims as well as perpetrators.

They do have a choice as well. They create the demand as such and keep the industry ticking over. Whilst I understand it's a powerful addiction, I would hope that someone would remind me that I'm keeping the industry alive by being addicted. Supply equals demand.

Have you seen the way they demolish tall buildings ? - they take out (blow out) the lower levels and the rest crashes down.

Taking down a drug ring works in the same manner.

Zero tolerance is the only option... sympathy for mules? - tell me - what sympathy have they expressed or demonstrated for the people their "passport to instant riches" would kill.

The drug peddling garbage who got caught in Indonesia deserve everything the courts can throw at them - and if that includes bullets - so be it.

Any compassion and sympathy is wasted on every one of them - young or old - people are individually responsible for their individual actions - unless you are still thinking about the "he made me do it" rubbish which they trotted out before it was discovered they had been back and forth a number of times before.

Col,if Shaplelle Corby was a real drug trafficer,all she had to do was flash a few thousand to the immigration officials and promise them more upon her release.Shapelle really stuffed up,she had no money and protested her innocence.

Normally you bribe the officials,they confiscate the drugs and they,re for sale on the streets of Bali within a few hours.
All this nonsense about Indonesia being hard on drugs is a lie.
Go to Bali and drugs are everywhere,if you do get caught,make sure you have enough money to buy your life back.

The Bali nine were the olive branch to Indonesia to go easy on Shapelle.Indonesia don't give a stuff about how many drugs they can export to Australia.Many secretly despise us and would delight in the destruction of our culture with income from drug exports.
Indonesia had to act because of the official alert from Australia.

We will never stop people from drug taking.People can set up their own production in their back yards.As I said ,education should be our main source of defense.

Col, what a right wing prat you are turning out to be re your posts on anything outside of your little square. I actually thought you had something intelligent to say on some issues but this one takes the cake. You obviously see the world as a flat little pancake with Sarah Lee layers and the little people should be contained within. Of course, you are the cherry on top because you've never broken the law (in/advertently) or had to defend yourself. You would have done really well in a castle in medieval times with a moat full of nasties to keep the riff raff out and upped the drawbridge.

Arjay – I do not know if the Corby woman is innocent or guilty I am not her judge, I have not read the transcript of her trial and make no presumptions to her innocence or otherwise. As for your conspiracy theory re the Bali 9 – ever hear the one about the universal jewish conspiracy to dominate the world through the insidious actions of Merchants Banks – it had Malaysia’s Dr Mahatir going – and sounding as paranoid as you sound now.

Di “Col, what a right wing prat you are turning out to be re your posts on anything outside of your little square.”

I look down at the ground, what I am I looking for? some suitable adjective to describe the sort of person who, instead of challenging my views simply descends to calling me names.

Unless you are one of the Bali 9 objecting to me calling you “garbage”, I suggest you restrain your spiteful invective and bear in mind – those who call me names like “prat” are likely to find I work on the simple premise that

“it is better to give than receive” and

“I WILL give back better than I receive”.

Further – my capacity to think “outside the square” is largely facilitated by “living outside the square”. That you know the trite lines from of the world compendium in “contemporary quasi-socialist dullard think” (all 3 pages of it - including illustrations) and think you can classify me as existing within a bi-dimensional array then - all I can say is - bring it all on sucker!

Now learn some manners and I will try to remember, from your logon name and writing style, that you are possibly almost female.

Finally, my capacity to live within the law has been tested and not found wanting. My acceptance of personal responsibility for my actions – I am proud of – It is a shame you seem to think it is some kind of joke - it says alot about what must be lacking in ethics in your life.

Very deep Col, very profound, unlike your previous posts, just keep looking at the ground. After all, all of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the sky. With a wink of course, to Mr Wilde.

Col and Di,we are all torn between right and left decisions in our lives.Usually right is about survival and left about compassion and understanding.We need both for our fragile civilisation to survive.I see both sides of this reality.You don't realise it, but you both have common objectives.Don't reduce difference of opinion to personal abuse.

Mostly I agree with Col in political realities,but I have an eighteen year old with whom I have a good rapport,and can see how a a child from a broken family can easily be in such a predicament such as the Bali Nine.

I wonder how Col would feel if his friend Michael had been one of the 'Bali 9'.

I also notice that our gladiator for the rights of the individual hasn't addressed my point that the worst thing about drugs is that they are illegal.

You are right Arjay – when people like Di attack me with personal insults I respond with same.

I have a 24 and a 20 year old – neither need to traffic drugs to make ends meet – I divorced their mother when they were 12 and 8 – “broken families - a trafficker do not make”.

Garra- as friend "Tim" who happened to get caught trafficking (c1969) and went to prison to the shame of his parents and family – I had and have no sympathy for his predicament.

Likewise my own brother whose DWI resulted in the death of a passenger - it sent him to prison – no sympathy for him – some for my sister-in-law and nieces – My brother did “the time” and has rebuilt his life since but do I think he should have been given a “soft option” for drunk driving – no way – I love him but he stuffed up and has paid the penalty the court handed down – without bothering to lodge an appeal.

So if "Michael" had been one of the Bali 9 – I would suggest he is where he decided to risk himself being – he is accountable and responsible and knew the risks, let him face the consequences of his actions instead of whining and pretending “faux innocence” in a pathetic attempt at finding sympathy for his anti-social and morally contemptible behaviour –

no one traffics drugs by accident –

no one deserves the chance to traffic again after they have been caught.

Di– certainly if a "measure" of wit were a condition of quoting – you would be banned from mentioning dear Oscar.

Sarcasm is considered wit in its lowest form – it is something you might aspire to one day.

I notice a curious disjuncture between our defender of individual freedoms and responsibilities' repetitive and obnoxiously aggressive pronouncements, and the intrusion upon those freedoms and responsibilities by the various states that impose ineffective drug prohibition laws and draconian penalties upon those who transgress them.

If a law is stupid, and a penalty for transgressing therefore unjust, then as far as I can surmise it is an ifringement upon the rights of individuals who fall foul of it.

Col hasn't addressed my point that the worst thing about illegal drugs is that they are illegal.

His "friend" who died could well have found himslef in the same position as the "Bal 9", and Col tells us he would have abandoned him.

Ergo, Col was not really his friend.

Rees states "Justice demands that we do not keep quiet, that we articulate what due process and just outcomes might mean, anywhere, anywhen".

Very True, unfortunately Australians have many blind spots when it comes to the uniform application in articulating just outcomes. Its a very cock-eyed liberalism if ever there was one.

After posting you a "prat" Col, I almost re-posted apologising, but realised that it was probably the best and nicest four letter word I could come up with to describe your stance. Your subsequent postings have reinforced that. I think Garra put it most succinctly. You are a right wing +#@(

Di you wrote:

"My stance is that as they are not the Mr Bigs and only the mules, they do not deserve a bullet nor life in a Bali jail, but not a slap on the wrist either. Say, unpaid service with the ambos on a Saturday night plus time".

What a load. If these same mules were willing to sell drugs in Bali they would be willing to sell drugs and dirty needles in my street, to my kids, to your kids. If this happenned and they were caught by our own police, appeared in court and were convicted would we want them to do unpaid service with the Salvation Army on a Saturday night? Think again Di.

Okay Rainer, take your point. But, what sort of penalty should people that do these things get? Lock em up and throw away the key? I was taking the view that sometimes a reality check may work better, if these idiots could see first hand the cause and effect, it may get them thinking differently. For instance, with chronic speeders, a good idea to me (which has been touted) is to get them into the emergency ward on a Saturday night and be witness to the damage and grief that comes from speeding etc., not just fining and taking their license away. Yes, they may feel punished, but it wouldn't necessarily get them thinking outside their own little world. My experience is that people won't change the way they operate (whether in or outside the law) unless they experience some kind of an epiphany. Remorse is a often a pivotal emotion that raises the conscious need to change one's behaviour and if they get exposed to the consequences of their actions, this may well happen. Most people are good, but just go around doing bad things. That's not excusing bad behaviour by the way, but doing time with rehabilitation, or throwing the death penalty around apparently doesn't work, otherwise they'd be no one on death row. I'm all for exploring rehabilitative methods as I do not believe any State has the right to put to death any of their citizens.

Great post Di.

I took a mates son with me one Saturday night (stretched the work experience rules a tad) anyway, he saw first hand the effects of drugs and alcohol for that matter. He has a completely different attitude now - wants to be an ambo too! Still thats better than where he was going before.

These 'mules' usually destroy themselves in the process as well. They don't deserve a bullet but a reality check goes a long way. I don't have much sympathy for them but as Di says most people are good and wind up doing bad things - there's no one at this forum who could claim to be perfect model citizens all their lives.

When you talk to the kind of kids like the Bali 9 you discover they want the same things as the rest of us. They're young they have a chance to turn around their lives.

The drug lords are the problem - arresting the mules hasn't and doesn't work. They are too far up the food chain connected w/legit business and not so legit governments.

Garra- your suggestion, like most of your posts, is asinine.
To suggest I would abandon a friend because of their illegal and immoral actions is because you do not know me. It is similar to To suggesting I abandoned my brother for his illegal and immoral actions – let me assure you – I did not.
If someone offends they get punished. First and foremost my friends can rely on me to be honest with them and not pandering to their failings. Probably, unlike you, I would still welcome them into my home and help them to rehabilitate to become productive member of society – you more like would make excuses for their illegal behaviour – simply encouraging them back to a life of corruption but distance yourself from their recidivist demise. As you presume the worst thing about illegal drugs is their illegality – I would suggest a reduction in expected life duration of around 30 years or a state of permanent psychotic delusion and paranoia is worse than the “illegality” of the drugs you commend – pathetic logic – nothing new.

Di – you said “ You are a right wing +#@(“

and that displays the limit of your vocabulary – the gutter outside a bar on a Saturday night is filled with the effluent and essence of you too.
Dall me names all you want – you simply display the limit of your intellect as reflected by the limit of your vocabulary – now run away and get an education before you irritate me and I start to treat you in the manner you so richly deserve.

Ultimately, I would rather be considered a “right wing +#@(“ than a “dirty mouthed slag”.

Well now, what a mature and intelligent discussion this has developed into...I can't wait for more :-)

Ambo - good post.

Di & Garra - naughty, naughty - not promoting your cause.

Col maybe if you tried rational argument instead dogmatic sledging you wouldn't be called names.

Unfortunately, we do have to cooperate with a justice system which still imposes the death penaly - we cooperate with the USA don't we?

Could the Feds have done more? Of course, but that's politics folks.

I found this interesting and relevant to understand intra national jurisdiction in criminal law:

"Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters: Indonesia & Australia
In 1996 Indonesia and Australia signed a treaty of mutual assistance in criminal matters. That treaty was given legal force in 1999.1 The Treaty makes it clear that:
Assistance may be refused for offences in which the death penalty may
be imposed or carried out. Section 8(1A) of the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act 1987 (Cth) (‘the Act’) prohibits the provision of assistance in criminal matters once a person has been charged or convicted of a capital offence, unless the Attorney-General (or Minister for Justice), “having regard to the special circumstances of the case”, is of the opinion that assistance should be granted.
The Act does not provide for the refusal of assistance in capital cases at the investigatory stage. This leaves the AFP free to provide information to foreign authorities that will result in Australians (and conceivably foreigners as well) facing capital punishment."
http://www.nswccl.org.au/docs/pdf/cpu3.pdf

Garra, welcome to the world of Col Rouge slagging off on you if he doesn't agree with what you say. Whatever you do, don't DALL him names. Otherwise, you'll get called a lot of names which have more than four letters in them, because he is more learned than I! And presumably, has a bigger (dic)tionary. Which he trots out for his postings. I hope he doesn't really talk like this in real life!

Back to the issue of the justice system. If we cooperate with a death penalty system, regardless of the level of law-breaking, we do open up the possibility that we are sending citizens to death without a fair trial backing the accused up.

A lot has been said (ad nauseum) about Shapelle's case and we are cutting ourselves up about what the judges are permitting as evidence in her case. Ie weighing the bag et al. In the Indonesian system, often it's easier to declare yourself guilty and go to jail and bribe the guards, rather than declare innocence and risk a death penalty with bugger all evidence your lawyer can introduce. Being fair, people on lower levels can make mistakes, and with the stories coming out about our own baggage handlers, I don't think anyone would really know the full story about any individual's case, unless one was on the jury. There are certain people that say it's cut and dried, being accused equal being guilty, but Col!, I do occasionally channel the Salem witch burnings! Sure you were there, but of course, not tied to the faggots! Let's not support 18th century style trials and convictions in the 21st century.

Ringtail – when someone calls me a four letter word I respond in a manner they are likely to understand – no point in attempting to elevate their comprehension above the gutter when that is all they demonstrate in their posts.

Oh Di – You are the one casting dispersion –

I merely respond in a manner which I assume your sort of person might understand – you know the lower orders of intellects for whom subtlety is beyond understanding and totally wasted.

Now – good for you pointing out my typing error – I am sure that made you feel good – of course I could not give a damn – as far as I am concerned you are as good as your vocabulary and rhetoric – and that makes you beneath contempt – keep dishing it out “dah’ling” and I will keep handing it back.

Accept responsibility for your postings and understand – when you call people four letter words they are likely to use four letter words back at you (noting “slag” has 4 letters) – but I guess you can count that far and are used to it.

Now back to the Bali 9 – which this thread is supposed to be about (noting Ms Corby is being tried and will be judged in a separate proceeding) – Drug mules are wannabe drug lords – whilst they aspire they rarely achieve because they are greedy scum which remain as a stain on the boardwalk lacking the basic intelligence to be more than they are – “mules” – a pack animal – a beast of burden – expendable and of no use to anyone else than the master it has decided to serve. Shoot them and forget them – they are a waste of the air they breath – no second changes – zero tolerance – easy – and save the huge amount of dollars it costs in keeping this filth in prison. They have demonstrated by their lack of ethic that they fail to qualify to participate freely with responsibly minded people.

Mmmm.... (notice Col) four M's and four dots. Don't go outside the little square, which is no doubt right (and I lose that term loosely of course!) where you're sitting. Your stance on the scum of the earth (which would appear to be whomever disagrees with you) or whom you have never even borne witness to, I hope you would never be called up on jury service even in this great country. If the accused didn't speak your dictionary, or was not of your ilk, send them to DEATH! They are but a mule! I hope you enjoy your FIGJAM on toast every morning.

Actually, I've noticed that Col's bluster is usually an effort to avoid the issue. I have pointed that the illegal status of drugs has never prevented or even reduced (except temporarily) their production, distribution and use. People, as individuals, clearly want to use them - for whatever reason. The fact is that they do, and have done for millennia. I can't think of a culture that doesn't use some kind of intoxicating drugs, either recreationally or ritually (not to mention medicinally).

Col STILL hasn't addressed my point that his aggressive trumpeting of the hard right prohibitionist line is completely at odds with his supposed championing of the rights of the individual. To my mind, drug laws are gross infringements of civil liberties - all the more so, given that they clearly don't work.

Is Col capable of addressing this point without an accompanying stream of rabid invective?

After reading the to and fro abuse amongst contributors, I have lost the thrust of what I intended to say. This is my first time here. I thought it was going to be different from Yahoo and Talk City chat rooms - which are often filled with personal abuse and show paucity of argument. I will have to go back to the drawing board on this on!

klw, unfortunately some of the debate does get nasty at times but please try and look past that part and you will see a lot of reasonably good natured discussion. Some of that is from different fairly different viewpoints. Almost every spirited debate appears to include some name calling but most also has significant valuable content.

In regard to the current topic I am finding it very interesting to see the points put forward. I tend to come from a similar starting point to Col but am being given cause to wonder if there is a better way society can deal with this situation. I'm mostly sitting on the sidelines of this and trying to follow the content. The debate is useful and there are good people here on all sides of debates (even if they do not always post at their best).

For the rest please keep up the debate on the topic I am still working thru this one.

The illegal drug industry is not a house of cards - if only it was that easy. Drug runners tend to be the very young and gullible - they rarely become drug lords themselves for two reasons - they're too stupid and the life expectancy for a 'mule' is pretty low.

Do they deserve punishment - sure if it is combined with rehabilitation - they're young they still have a chance.

As garra has suggested legalising drugs would indeed bring down the drug lords more effectivley than shooting the mules - after all there are always more mules available. Before anyone goes off on an insulting rant (Col) I am not advocating free and easy access to drugs, rather controlled programs for those already hooked. Also the legalising would take away much of the 'mystique' the young find so tempting.

Stuart Rees asks if we have to co-operate with a justice system that still imposes the death penalty, as ringtail pointed out we co-operate with america. So the answer is: yes we do, especially if we can bring these 9 idiots home to serve their sentences in Australia.

Ambo – “Before anyone goes off on an insulting rant (Col)” since it is not your practice to cast insults my way their is no likelihood that I would need to express anything other than agreement or disagreement (plus elaborations or embellishments without personal attacks) with your view Ambo.

Since someone else initiated an attack on me with four letter words and has pursued that course even to the post immediately below my last one, I take it that such a display is inviting an appropriate repost.

“FIGJAM” all you like Di – that you cannot post here without continuing the thread of vitriolic insults, which you started leaves me to assume your own limited capabilities lock you into attacking those who do not agree with you. Ultimately, just like the drug peddling mules, you being a creature who seeks the easy option, will bring about your own demise through lack of appreciation of the environment which you pollute – so be it – this site will not be diminished by your absence.

Garra – nothing inconsistent with demanding people accept full and total responsibility for their actions – especially when those actions contravene established laws. If you don’t like a law – work, democratically, to have it repealed – until it is repealed you are simply demanding the right to behave with impunity in pursuit of a criminal action – such a course is akin to morally contradictory anarchy.

It appears many are discussing specific laws without accurate reference,or is this the rationale for free and open discussion here means? ..oh dear...

See the MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDONESIA ON LEGAL COOPERATION at http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/www/Legalserviceshome.nsf/0/436193B5016655F0CA256CD3001421A1?OpenDocument

I know its only an MOU but its an important MOU in terms of diplomatic and legal cooperation beteen Austalia and Indonesia.

I'd welcome comment on what Stuart has asks with reference to this MOU. It seems to me that the bali nine will be depending on the diplomatic powers we have rather than the system of law they have been captured by.

Thanks for the civil response, Col. However, given that you have said repeatedly that there is no such thing as society, just groups of individuals, who is it that makes these dumb laws anyway? If the individual has primacy over 'society', why should an individual obey laws that are created by society?

And democracy only exists at the social level - individual democracy doesn't make sense. Maybe you need to think more about that, and while you're at it perhaps you could read some facts about drugs. Your comments indicate that you know very little about recreational drugs, their effects and side effects, how they are produced, consumed and distributed, the utter failure of prohibition to control any of it - in short, the reality of drugs. This is a very weak basis upon which to form such vehement opinions.

For the life of me, I can't see how me growing a few cannabis plants for my own use is harmful to anyone, except perhaps me. This is, of course, one of the reasons I support the only political party that has a rational drugs policy - i.e. the Greens.

The only problem with that approach, as I said in my first post in this thread, is that the vested interests of organised crime, the legal/enforcement establishment and the ignorant and/or bloody-minded far right are far too powerful to let reason prevail.

Will you at least acknowledge that the prohibition of recreational drugs has been an abject failure?

Garra, do agree with your postings, that is certainly an avenue that has great significance on the industry and culture of drug taking without it being a free for all. Re the fact that myself included has gotten off track by scoring points against a certain poster. Apologies to the new poster that is disillusioned. The issue being discussed is the importance. Otherwise Col and I may as well go on Big Brother. (Ugh) LIke Robert, I find most postings make me think and make me reassess what I bring to the forum, and more importantly, take me into someone else's experiences. Ringtail and Ambo have been particularly enlightening on this subject and others. And always you, Timkins, sans hyperlinks. This subject is bigger than us all and we care enough to post and throw ideas around to come to commonn ground and maybe, just maybe, come up with a solution. The powers that be seem to perhaps need a bit of people power!

For all of the foul mouths out there who cant help but voice thier opinions on this site with words that they have probably gotten from a thesaurus, just letting you know fighting over who has the better opinion is the saddest sight i have ever seen, i Know Matthew Norman, the youngest of the bali nine and just to let you know i agree with opinions on both sides but the fact is i think you all need to back up and get a reality check, you arent fighting with each other and calling each other four letter names bacuse you believe so fiercly in your opinions, you are continuing these very 'thought provoking' conversations because of you need to have an opinion that one or more people can retaliate to. I love Matthew and i do believe neither him or the rest of the bali nine deserve death. I know the people of a country must respect the laws of another country, and that these young Australians were cought on Bali soil, but the AFP knew first hand what they were doing when they handed over information of the bali nine to the bali police. The AFP had a legal duty not to hand over information or intelligence of the bali nine, especially considering they were on their way back to Australia, because they knew outright that the arrest and convition of the Australians would result in the death penalty. The drugs would not have made it to the streets the "mules" may have led Auatralian police to the king pin, or at least a higher up person or persons in the so called drug ring, and these people may have served thier sentences in Australia, and this would have been a more productive senario, due to the fact that the drugs were doing nothing to affect the balinese people, and also due to the fact these drugs were coming into Australia and that we the Australian people may have been affected, we should have the right to make the arrests and decisions on thing that concern us!

Green eyes, certainly respect your post and what you have said and yes, it would seem you are absolutely right in what the police had to do with it. If they did know, and knew what the outcome was going to be, when it didn't have to be that, they should have intervened, as I am sure they could have. And you are right in us posters sometimes getting caught up in calling each other out over puerile bits that have nothing to do with the big picture. However that does go hand in hand with people that are passionate and political. However much I would disagree with certain people, at least it beats apathy. All that aside however, I would ask you, what on earth would make any person strap on some heroin in Bali of all places and think that they would make it to the other side? That's the insight I am fascinated in. In this day and age. We can call it stupid or evil, but I don't necessarily think it's either. But I wouldn't call it naiveity either. Look forward to your next post.

I respect your opinions Di and thank you for not attacking me about my comments. I know that sometimes I can get very passionate about this issue, and also about others peoples views, because most people dont have an opinion about it they just like casting stones at people that are not in the same class as they are. Most of the Australian public are more concerned with what other people will think of them because of these younge peoples actions. I must say that my friend matthew was not one of the people caught at the airport, he was sharing a hotel room with people from work and he was arrested because more heroin was found in the hotel room that all of them were in. I know that it would be naieve to think that he did not know a thing about it, but i still belive that he was thinking of his families lives above his own. He has told his father that people threatened his family if he did not cooperate, his family has already received death threats since he was arrested. i fear for his family as much as his safety. I understand that it is not understandable for most people why someone would do this but if you knew matthew as I did you would know that his family was the first thing on his mind at all times. And i Will swear that if i was in his shoes And drug lords or any one for that matter threatened my family i would do exactly as they said. Stupidity can be factored into this, but only if that stupidity was aimed at the AFP for not foreseeing the avoidable deaths of nine Australians. As well as aiming the stupidity calls at the people calling the shots and making the AFP look stupid. The people who got these young Australians into this mess in the first place.

Green eyes, thanks for the last post, it would be a ghastly position to be in and who can say or judge what they would do in a similar position? Especially at that age with that amount of pressure. I will watch the development of that trial with an added insight because of you. You are right about casting the stones, it is an easy position to be in, except when you are the one on the receiving end. Let's hope that some precedent has been set with Corby, though with the latest developments, I do suspect a deal has been done behind the scenes and that the "mules" of the Bali 9 may well end up being the sacrificial lambs. I will certainly stay interested and concerned. Maintain the rage.
Di

Hey there people out there who seemed to have an opinion about everything about 2 weeks ago. Then I came on here and gave you a dose of reality. seems to have done the trick. People out there need to keep their mouths shut about things they clearly don't understand. The truth hurts people I understand this a little clearer now i hope all you foul mouths out there do now as well.

I've posted this in another forum under another name. This is my view on how we should deal with importers here:

During the twentieth century people have been hanged in NSW and elsewhere. There technically and practically are no constitutional barriers to depriving a person of life if convicted of certain indictable offences. Alternatively, for these offenders, life should mean life in the literal construction of the word if death penalty is not applied.

Useful comparative law includes the Philippine:

REPUBLIC ACT NO. 9165 (2002)
COMPREHENSIVE DANGEROUS DRUGS ACT OF 2002

This is a key extract selected by me of the CDDA2002:

"Section 4. Importation of Dangerous Drugs and/or Controlled Precursors and Essential Chemicals.- .The penalty of life imprisonment to death and a ranging from Five hundred thousand pesos (P500,000.00) to Ten million pesos (P10,000,000.00) shall be imposed upon any person, who, unless authorized by law, shall import or bring into the Philippines any dangerous drug, regardless of the quantity and purity involved..."