"MY ONLY INTEREST IS IN BUILDING A GREAT SOCIETY. I FIND THE ATTITUDE AND MISSION OF TRUE CHRISTIANS IS WHERE I WANT TO BE."

What Rot what's a true Christian because there are Christian groups that do support genocide and slavery. Just as there are Muslim groups that believe the Koran doesn't condone the actions of some Islamic extremist. Philo your agenda is to have a Christian theocracy and the reason is because you believe that every other belief system is wrong and evil. Otherwise you would have to except that you may be utterly wrong in your beliefs.
It’s only when you can except you maybe wrong that you can hope to find the truth, step into the light embrace the healthy skepticism the science teaches us.

Religious fanatics would have us handling in caves still frightened of the angry Gods

>READ DEUTERONOMY 15: 9 – 16, and prove economics was not involved.
I’ll look it up and get back to on that I’m in a rush.

Again with the cultural context , oh but I’m sorry Philo I didn’t think you could be a relativist and Christian at the same time. Aslan is just plain confused, he is quite happy to use relativist arguments to support his absolutist stance. So yes if you are a relativist by saying slavery wasn’t wrong you haven’t condoned it, but then how could you go on an say:

“understand the Muslim extremist mind operating today. Eg, Ambon, Aceh, Zimbabwe, West Papua, where males are hacked to death with machetes, women raped and children taken as sex slaves. All who do not confess to believing in Allah die. In West Papua they are attempting to eradicate the native population with AIDS. These People follow the primitive religion of the ancient Arabic (correction Semitic) fathers”??

which appears to put it in a negative light, but how could that be, since first you are a relativist, and second it is the exact same thing YOUR GOD told the Jews to do. You cannot deny your roots and accept the divine status of Jesus it’s a package deal and no trade-ins BTW.

>Nowhere do true Christians support genocide or slavery, our heritage may have arisen from such genetic roots. True Christianity is to everyone of us that we are loved and our deeds forgiveable.

Sorry No True Scotsman Fallacy, so I take it before slavery was abolished there were no true Christians, does that in the twelve apostles?

Degrade you, no, no, Philo just like your Christian brothers I don’t hate the sinner just the sin, which in your case and Aslan’s is denial and the moral hypocrisy. Aslan may escape he is just confused.

So please back to the point justify the command by your God to commit genocide, the killing of women and children and the taking virgins as slaves. The same one you got your Ten Commandments from and is part of your trinity.

Pericles,

You accuse me of making words mean whatever I like. Your accusation is baseless. I have never changed any meaning. In my discussions with Oliver I used "belief" to refer to verifiable truth claims which may not yet have been verified. This is a valid use of the word, and is the way Oliver employed the term.

You said: "biological evolution is a theory that will, over time, and by its very nature, be proved or disproved."

Wrong again. Biological evolution is meant to explain the historical emergence of life. Since no-one was there to observe it and we cannot travel back in time, it is impossible to know what actually happened. Furthermore, because evolution is meant to be driven by mutations and natural selection it is therefore totally unpredictable. Therefore, it is unverifiable. It is a fairytale which must be accepted on faith.

You ask: "Is that clearer now? Facts. And. Beliefs. Are. Two. Entirely. Different. Concepts."

This was always clear to me. You were the one having trouble.

Kenny,

You just make me laugh. You said: "Religious fanatics would have us handling in caves still frightened of the angry Gods"
Actually, if it wasnt for Christians there wouldnt be any science!

Earlier, re heliocentrism you accused me of relying on AIG and out of step with Catholic scholarship. But my sources were actually "The Sleepwalkers" by Koestler, "Galileo" by Ronan, "Discoveries and Opinions of Galileo" by Drake, "The Crime of Galileo" by Santillana, "The Sun in the Church" by Heilbron, and Galileos own writings (plus others).

Why not pay more attention to Oliver and Pericles? They also talk alot of rubbish but at least they sound intelligent.

Neohuman,

You ask: "why Aslan Philo would they want to end slavery in the first place if by your twisted logic it is Ok?"

You obviously haven't been paying attention. The abolitionist Christians objected to, and stopped the abhorent African slave trade where innocent people were effectively stolen, abused, killed and treated as less than human with no way of regaining freedom. This is NOT the Biblical practice of slavery.

Oliver,

Whatever you call yourself, you have made it clear that you do not accept any absolute standard. Do you now admit that you have no right - on your view - to criticise any other view, and that everytime you do so, and employ moral language as you have done, you violate the view you claim to hold and affirm the view that I hold?

You said: "Christians (and others) had the opportunity to adopt alternative non-slave economies"

Indeed - and they did! It's called "western civilisation".

You said: "these views are primative, in that, such views would not be widely held twenty-first century by people in OECD countries"

And your point is...?

You kept calling Polanyi "Polyani" and now you keep call Mein Kampf, "Mien Kief". For someone who claims to be well read, you have displayed astounding ignorance on several occasions. And don't blame it on typos. You used these same erroneous spellings on more than one occasion.

You said: "Because an opinion cannot be absolute, it does not follow it cannot be moral or expressive."

Relativism is not simply an alternative morality - it is a total rejection of the moral project. Moral language only has meaning in an absolute system. By your own admission, there is no right or wrong, just opinions - all of which are valid.

You ask: "Aslan, do you doubt "anything" in the Bible? Was it not compiled by fallible humans? Please answer."

Actually, it's your turn to do some explaining.

The 20th century saw the most mass murder in recorded history. R J Rummel in "Death by Government" counted just under 200 million killed by their own govts. None of these people were killed as a result of Christian ideas. They were killed as a result of atheistic ideas such as humanism, socialism and Marxism.

Neohuman & Pericles,
I ask, where are those upholding implicity the teachings of Christ that deliberately murder innocent women and children in the name of God? Please name them! Religious maybe: Christ followers hardly!

You are the ones now upholding judgment on absolute moral values. ie If it is wrong now it must have always been wrong. I wonder what cultural religion influenced such a conclusion? Christians upheld the equality of women, stating that the principle that a man ought to have only one wife as the Adamic model. During wars with hostile neighbours many men were killed so the practise of multiple wives seemed acceptable. Acceptable yes: desireable not ideal.

Christ teachings clashed with the teachings of Judaism which had him killed as a deceiver and heritic. It would seem his influence on Western Culture is now what shapes your moral values. I suggest you ought to read more of his ideas.

PT 1
Aslan Wrote
>You obviously haven't been paying attention. The abolitionist Christians objected to, and stopped the abhorent African slave trade where innocent people were effectively stolen, abused, killed and treated as less than human with no way of regaining freedom. This is NOT the Biblical practice of slavery.

Sorry no, you obviously read your Bible with rose colored glasses and live in denial

Lets see

1. African Slaves :Innocent people were effectively stolen

Biblical Slaves:

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

(Lets not forget the genocide the killing of innocent women and children and the taking of virgin sex slaves)

SAME

2. African Slaves: abused, treated as less than human

Biblical Slaves:

EX 21.20-21: When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.

1PE 2.18-19: Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly.

Same:(or isn’t being beaten to an inch of your life abuse?)