Oliver,

Let me make it clear that I do not hold to a blind literalistic interpretation of Scripture. Like all true evangelicals, I interpret according to the standard grammatical-historical method. If you don't know what this is then look it up on the web.

Socialism doesn't come from Bible - it comes from atheist Karl Marx.

Exodus 22:35 (and several other verses) disallow interest to be charged on loans to those who are destitute and without sufficient means. It is not a prohibition against interest charged on commercial transactions.

Deut 23:19-20 states that foreigner may be charged interest, and Prov 28:8 and Ezek 18 also state that one should not charge EXCESSIVE interest - not that no interest can be charged at all.

Furthermore, in Matt 25:27/Luke 19:23 Jesus, in his parable, affirms the charging of interest for commercial purposes.

Regarding wealth accumulated by Churches - I don't agree with churches accumulating great wealth just for the sake of it, or for showy or power purposes. However, I don't mind if churches spend significant amounts on their own facilities to facilitate their own ministry and activities.

In Acts (an historical record of growth in early church), the members in Jerusalem sold everything and shared the funds among themselves. This was OK for a while, but it caused jealousy and envy and it was not distributed evenly among Jews and Gentiles. When the money ran out, the people were in great need and Paul and co went around Asia minor collecting money for them.

Re the poor, Jesus said they would always be with us. People are poor because they are oppressed by others (eg. Iran, Cuba, etc.), they are foolish (eg. gamblers, smokers, drunks), they hold to a false worldview (eg. all animistic cultures eg. Aborigines) or because they are lazy. If we want to stop poverty, giving away money will not make a scrap of difference and will probably makes things worse. LiveAid demonstrates this.

Aquinas is a great theologian and philosopher but his work is not inspired Scripture and on this point he is wrong.

Aslan,

I was just interested in your views on the socialism matter. Albeit, some of the poor are born into their circumstance and would find it hard to change their lot.

Of course the Christian churches need money to operate effectively, from their prospective. However, perhaps, in some instances, the management of resources could be more effective yielding greater benefits to charity: e.g., multiplexing. Relatedly, I appreciate the older churches have become custodians of art treasures, which millions to restoration and maintenance.

My reference to Leviticus stemmed from Marx's Theory of Labour, relating to the creation of surplus value by one party to used by another party. I guess there is some irony with Marx, because, he is the upper middle class product of surplus value, giving him time to work on his political economy.

I don't think Marx was a socialist because he was an athiest - do you? I think his socialism was a product of the work environments of the maturing industrial revolution and his atheism a response to the advances in science, including calculus. Also, the nineteenth century was a "mechanistic", which he though he could apply to history (Hegel). He was an intellectual of his times. Just the same I don't think Marx would have approved of Stalin or the post-1949 Mao

Oliver,

No I don't think Marx was a socialist just because he was an atheist. He was primarily a socialist because he was a lazy parasite who never worked a day in his life, yet was annoyed at the world because he had nothing and had to sponge off his wife and his friend Engels.

Nevertheless, his absolute hatred of the Judeo-Christian worldview played a significant part.

His poetry is quite enlightening. In 'Oulanem' (an inversion of 'Emmanuel' - God is with us), he writes:
-=-=-=-=
If there is something which devours, I'll leap within it, though I bring the world to ruins,
The world which bulks between me and the abyss I will smash it to pieces with my enduring curses.
I'll throw my arms around its harsh reality.

Embracing me, the world will dumbly pass away
And then sink down to utter nothingness
perished, with no existence; that would be really living.
-=-=-=-=

In 'The Fiddler' he writes:
-=-=-=-=
The hellish vapours rise and fill the brain
Till I go mad and my heart it utterly changed
See this sword? The prince of darkness
Sold it to me.
-=-=-=-=

In "The Pale Maiden" he writes:
-=-=-=-=
Thus heaven I've forfeited, I know it full well. My soul once true to God Is chosen for hell.
-=-=-=-=

Here we go, yet again.

>>you selectively quoted that post, and deliberately cut out the bit where I DID offer support/argument for my counter view... "And how can Wallis and McKinnon pretend to know what motivates Christians on the 'religious right'? Do they really think we are indifferent to the poor? Why do you think so many join the Liberal Party?" etc etc ad naus.<<

Aslan, with the greatest respect, that is casuistry. Asking rhetorical questions that assume answers that might be construed to support your position is not argument, it is evasion. An activity at which you have demonstrated yourself to be particularly adept.

Aslan,

I have not before come across his poetry. He would seem to have held strong views. Unsure, whether either Marx or Engels were lazy. Both were well read and excellent writers and developed advanced mathematically based economentric models. (I studied Political Economy for a year at Sydney.

Pericles, one characteristic which haunts all humans, is 'hypocracy'
I have it, Aslan has it, Oliver has it, and you have it.
"why not enter into ....'polite' discussion" you said.

But you describe Aslans 'dribblings' and "Pseudo Intellectual posturings" hmmm if not right in the middle of the circle which circumscribes the concept of 'insult' that is pretty close to it.

Never mind, its all stimulating, and may I say, that the interaction is becoming richer from what I can see, the poetry of Marx was quite enlightening, (and jusftifies the deep seated horror and aversion I have for the 'roots' of Marxism, and also explains a lot of why such sadistic cruelty was perpetrated by Communists against defenceless Christians in the USSR.) the serious nature of Olivers question to Aslan about socialism, etc..

Its all valuable. We may not yet see Damsacus road experiences in anyone, but there are many mileposts on that road I'm sure. My prayer is that each encounter takes all who as yet do not know Christ, closer to Him.