Asian,
Quote, "When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, their death became a certainty. They began to die. They became "dead men walking". That is what the Hebrew grammar is communicating."

Exactly!! What was the nature of the very death that happened that very day? The nature of the death that characterised their death though still alive, as you say, "dead men walking"? All organic functions in the body, like growing from a single cell to a full human being are established in the DNA, that is the beautiful life cycle. (Eccl 3: 1 - 15)

The chemistry of “the field”, to use the Biblical term of Genesis, is the ordered principles of Creation, expressed in the very ionic chemistry of matter. There is a dynamic implanted by God from the beginning inherent in the DNA that is manifest in the particular species and unfolds in that species emerging growth to reproduce itself, and diminishes as the role of its self-existence as a species depletes and dies.

God calls organic death "beautiful" in Eccl 3: 1 – 12 and he applies it in Job 1: 21, whereas spiritual death is an abomination and cannot exist in His presence and was enticed by natural passion, hence Adam being cast out of God's presence (Gen 3: 24). This was the nature of the death Adam experienced on the very day he sinned.

Quote, "We do not inherit death. We are naturally mortal since only God is immortal. The fruit of the Tree of Life was what gave them everlasting life. Romans talks about normal physical death. Just as the process of death took time, so the process of life is not instantaneous but eventually our bodies will be restored."

Could you list the places in Romans where the death of the body is mentioned? Pauls use of the term life, refers to spiritual life not organic life. The God breathed life Adam received was not what every other living creature experiences, it was the spiritual nature of Himself

Death in the book of Romans:

Death of Christ vicarious and Judicial for our sin, our death in the body is natural.
Rom 1: 32
Rom 4: 24 - 25
Rom 5: 7, 10 – 17
Rom 6: 9 – 10
Rom 7: 24
Rom 8: 38
Rom 14: 8

Death of the Spirit, as a result of sin is restored by Christ

Rom 5: 21
Rom 6: 3 – 4
Rom 6: 13 – 16
Rom 6: 21 - 23
Rom 7: 5 – 6
Rom 7: 10 – 13
Rom 8: 2 – 6
Rom 8: 36

(Paraphrase) Romans. 7:8 – 14: But sin produced in me every kind of covetous desire. Without law, sin is inactive, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Then that which is good, put me to death. But in order that sin might be recognised as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Romans. 8: 8 – 14: The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. The sinful nature does not control you if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is (considered)dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness

Oliver,

If Mark was excluded by the Church Fathers it would have been for a very good reason, and I would no doubt follow their judgment. But Mark was not rejected.

OTOH, Gospel of Thomas WAS rejected - and I continue to reject it for the same reasons the Fathers did.

You said: "I am trying to coax [me] to be critical of what [I] reads, before forming a belief."

A rather presumptuous comment don't you think?

You said: "Moreover, all beliefs need to be tentative."

This is a nonsense statement. The following syllogism shows why:

1. "all beliefs need to be tentative"
2. "all beliefs need to be tentative" is a belief.
3. Therefore, the belief that "all beliefs need to be tentative" should be held tentatively.
4. A tentative belief may later be accepted or rejected.
5. If the belief that "all beliefs need to be tentative" is later rejected, then obviously all beliefs need not be held tentatively.
6. If the belief that "all beliefs need to be tentative" is later accepted, then that belief is no longer tentative!

Kenny,

I agree Pi does not equal 3, but I do think that 3 is a valid approximation of Pi.

Neohuman,

Clearly you think that slavery as it was practiced in Biblical times was wrong/immoral.

Why do you think it is wrong/immoral? On what basis are you making this moral judgment?

You said: "slavery...in a absolutist moral system is unjustifiable under any circumstance"

How so? In Biblical Christianity, absolutes come from God. If God allowed the practice of a specific form of slavery (where slave owners had to obey strict rules), then how can you say it is "unjustifiable"?

You're welcome to post my comments on the other forum if you want.

Neohuman,

And if Biblical Christianity is so bad because it allowed a particular form of slavery in the Bible, then why is it that in history, it is only Christians - indeed, evangelical "fundamentalist" Christians - who have stood up against slavery, and eventually made sure that it was abolished?

Philo,

Just a few points.
1. In Romans death is used to refer to physical death and as a metaphore for separation from God.
2. Many Christians refer to this separation as spiritual death but that term is never used in scripture. Our spirits do not "die" - they are eternal - even for those who end up in Hell.
3. Romans 5:12 refers to physical death. You cannot directly compare the death that came through Adam as the direct opposite to the life that came through Christ. Romans 5:15-17 emphasises that "the gift is not like the trespass".
4. When Adam and Eve first sinned, physical death did indeed enter the world at that time. God killed animals for skins to cover Adam's and Eve's nakedness.
5. You said: "The God breathed life Adam received was not what every other living creature experiences, it was the spiritual nature of Himself". Not true. The same expression is used as a reference to physical life in Genesis 7:22 and v 23 makes it clear that both humans and animals are in view.

Aslan,

"If" you are adopting a position of infallibility in the Church's traditional lineage via ecumenical magisterial authority,it would become hard to accept much Protestant doctrine, as legitimate, when against the Catholic Church's teachings. In this frame,would you say the Founding Fathers were infallible in matters of faith? If so, is the Roman Pope, also infallible (ex cathedra)? If not, are you saying it was reasoned judgement by the (Catholic)Founding Fathers to include some gospels but exclude others?

Relatedly, if the Scriptures were open to "interpretation" during the Reformation, why not in 1st-4th centuries?

Neo and Aslan,

On other matters, back in the few days

Aslan,
1. When we sin against the perfection of God, our spirit is seperated from God, and the price of that sin is the eternal death of our spirit, ultimately in hell. The organism of the body never enters hell, or heaven, only our clothed spirit. When Adam sinned he was seperated from the presence of God - he needed to find atonement to be restored.
2. All living organic cells identified by DNA use and excreate waste and dead cell tissue. Living is part of dying, as energy breaks down carbon, and transfers ions into another form.

3. Trees grow tall on zylum produced on the outer layer of dead cells otherwise they would not grow beyond 600mm tall. So if there were trees in Eden dead tissue abounded before the disobedience of Adam. Organic death was part of the nature of the chemistry of ionic transfer causing life, change (decay) and death. Organic death was not introduced as punishment for moral behaviour, unless we had a previous inert existence in heaven before being clothed in clay.