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The Forum > Article Comments > Reading the Bible with a pair of scissors > Comments

Reading the Bible with a pair of scissors : Comments

By John McKinnon, published 6/5/2005

John McKinnon reviews Jim Wallis' book 'God's Politics - Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn’t Get It'.

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I remember a well known lecturer at my old College in 1961, now former professor of OT studies at Sheffield University, David Cline saying, "Debate matters of opinion, discover by research matters of fact".

Matters of fact have a physical signature that may or may not leave a historical record. There is a historical record of Joshua's prayer, but it is not written as history but as poetry. How we interpret poetry does offer option to variant opinions. Unless we have other collaborating evidence of an opinion held we cannot be dogmatic, and it remains a preference of opinion. There is no ground here for dogma, and different opinions pose no threat to interpretation of Divine revelation. I have proposed two other possible opinions of my preference of interpretation of Joshua's prayer and how God answered his prayer. I have real scientific and physical difficulties in believing the Earth actually stopped rotating for about 10 hours. If such gravitational evidence could be demonstrated in physics then there could be a case to introduce new evidence. God who created physics uses natural physics to perform his will. Darkness and hailstorms are natural physics, and in the answer to Joshua's prayer of death to his enemy was not by the sun contuing to shine, but the darkness and hailstorm. In fact for the enemy the sun and moon ceased to shine upon them.
Posted by Philo, Friday, 27 May 2005 3:51:57 PM
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Aslan,

ASTRONOMY

I will try again:

The pre-unification Chinese were capable of measuring the convergences and conjunctions, as I stated. Herein, they calculated alignments to a time scale of up to million years. Relatedly, modern Radio Astronomers use Chinese records --- which do exist --- to read the signatures of novae and super-novae. I cite Joseph Needham (1970),

“On the 7th day of the month, a chi-ssu day, a new star appeared in company with Antares”. 1,300 BCE (Shang)

The situation with the unification of China would have been like after WWII, wherein, both the West and Russia, wanted to capture the German scientists. Destroying astronomical records would have been like burning the plans to the V2.

Put simply, your source is wrong.

LOCUS OF POWER

My “opinion” is our Western democratic and the legal systems, were have inherited from the Greeks, Romans, Magna Carta and Westminster; today, representing just one form of governance (Locus of Power) amongst many (Loci of Power) held throughout history. You seem to hold an alternative “opinion”.

Put simply, we have divergent opinions.

JASHAR

Wasn’t Jashar written in medieval times. Does this document really make references to Minotaurs?

LUTHER

I adopted a Constructionist approach, because, (a) Luther was a high profile academic clergymen, (b) the remark would not be unconsidered, because it would displace Humankind from the centre of the Universe, and, (c) the Catholic church’s clamp-down was stronger 80-100 years afterwards.

Were I to apply your standard and reject my Constructionist acceptance of Jesus as a “historical” person, based on the Jewish understanding of Messiah, what I have read about first century Jesus sects and his encounter with Pilot, I would need to conclude Jesus did not exist at all
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 27 May 2005 4:38:14 PM
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Aslan and Philo,

I find representations of God in the Old Testament to be far more right wing and the God of the New Testament. Thus, I would invite Jesus to a dinner party, but would think JHWH too short tempered, especially, with brimstone and fine china. Lastly, Paul, had to seek compromise and re-brand from a Jewish sect.

JHWH and Moses’ timelines intersect at Sinai. However, JHWH roots are founded earlier in the animism. I cite Toynbee:

“He [Yahweh] first came within the Israelites’ ken as the jinn inhabiting a volcano in North-West Arabia.”

Later, this tribal God was adopted the principalities of Ephraim and Judah.

Aslan, as an argument, I think that Philo’s points are the stronger.

Philo,

I feel that Aslan might not take kindly to your Constructionism. Were there a God, changing the laws of physics would have all sorts of problems relating to light leaving stars to predestination, for Aslan. That is, changing physics would have profound philosophical implications.

Kenny,

I have been trying to coax Aslan to appreciate the wider historical panorama. It seems you might tried too and failed?

Nonetheless, I do see scholarship evident in religionism, but, it is far too narrow. A priori validation, the lack of null hypotheses and the avoidance of triangulation, does not seem the way to prove the existence of any god.

Were I trying to build a religionist case (I'm not), I would look towards studying Superposition in Planck Time and how proteins are built in DNA, not the Bible.
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 27 May 2005 5:13:24 PM
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Philo,

Are you saying that during the battle sunlight shone on Joshua's army but not on their enemies?

While Joshua's prayer in vv12-13a is poetic, the narrative description of what actually happened in v13b is not. According to standard grammatical-historical exegesis, both the sun and moon stood still in the sky. I don't see why natural law would stand in the way of the God who created it, and the universe.

Kenny,

Your arguments goes like this: "The scientific consensus is that the earth is 4.5 billion years old so therefore it is. All Biblical propositions on this area must be wrong because it doesn't agree with those all-knowing gods we call scientists."

Yet the history of science shows that the consensus of scientists has been wrong - indeed hopelessly wrong - time and time and time again. In contrast, the Bible's historical propositions have _never_ shown to be wrong.

That infidels link you gave contains all the same tired old alleged discrepencies that have been refuted time and time again since Aquinas' day. There are several books available written by scholars refuting these pithy nonsense claims.

You said: "Just remember in Aslans world pi is equal to three now where’s the logic in that."

Actually, in my world pi does not equal 3. However, I'm curious to know what you think pi equals? Please Kenny - indulge me - tell me what you think the value of pi is?

Oliver,

You said "Destroying astronomical records would have been like burning the plans to the V2. Put simply, your source is wrong."

My source is Douglas J. Keenan who has published his research in a peer-reviewed professional journal (East Asian History):
http://www.informath.org/EAH02a.pdf

You have simply made baseless assertions. May I suggest that it is you who are wrong?

The Book of Jasher (or the Book of the upright one) was an ancient book of Israelite songs and prayers. It is also mentioned in 2 Sam 1:18. Unfortunately no copies have been preserved.
Posted by Aslan, Friday, 27 May 2005 11:12:09 PM
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Oliver,

You said: "Were I to apply your standard and reject my Constructionist acceptance of Jesus as a “historical” person...I would need to conclude Jesus did not exist at all."

That would be an illogical conclusion, and says alot about your grasp of logic.

You said: "My “opinion” is our Western democratic and the legal systems and the legal systems, were have inherited from the Greeks, Romans, Magna Carta and Westminster; today,representing just one form of governance (Locus of Power) amongst many (Loci of Power) held throughout history. You seem to hold an alternative “opinion”. Put simply, we have divergent opinions."

Ok. That means that Hitler's Nazi regime was also a locus of power. Was this locus of power wrong to kill 6 million Jews? They didn't violate their own law in doing this, so what - if anything - is wrong with what they did?
Posted by Aslan, Friday, 27 May 2005 11:24:18 PM
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Asian,
Quote, "Philo, Are you saying that during the battle sunlight shone on Joshua's army but not on their enemies?" Poetry does not always represent actual physical events, as is evidenced by the writings of Isaiah. The precedent is, in poetry the sun and moon shining upon one can indicate blessing even as darkness and gloom indicate curse. It can be a picture of speech. For those that would die they would no longer see the sun at midday or the moon at night. For them this blessing ceased, and I am suggesting this is what Joshua prayed. Joshua was not concerned essentially about the need of more sunlight or darkness but he was concerned that God give him the victory over his enemies.

However God performed this in the miracle of the hailstorm, Joshua did not have to do it. The extended darkness was across the whole area of battle as the sun ceased to give light even at midday which extended till late evening because of the heavy cloud.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 28 May 2005 8:53:20 AM
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