Oliver,

Re Chinese astronomy - the NASA piece is VERY brief and contains no supporting refs. The earliest solar eclipse recorded in China was allegedly in 2136 BC, but there a major problems with Chinese chronology and the reliability of early astronomical records. See Douglas J. Keenan article on this published in East Asian History:
http://www.informath.org/EAH02a.pdf

According to F Richard Stephenson who has written extensively on this (and to who's work the "More Information" link on the NASA site refers), states that reliable records of solar and lunar eclipses go back only as far as 750 BC.
See http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/atext/histecl.htm

In any case, your criticism is an argument from silence which is a logical fallacy. Just because we do not have or cannot find any (Chinese) record of Joshua's long day does not mean it did not happen.

Aslan.

LUTHER

You, Popper and I agree that the serial repetition of a fallacy is in appropriate. Are you denying the original report? I thought you felt Luther as just speaking in an unconsidered manner. Please clarify, so we can continue in the same ballpark. Thanks.

CHINESE ASTRONOMY

NASA should have posted its referencing. Nonetheless, what it states is supported by Lucian Pye and Joseph Needham (guru status) with respect to China. Stephenson appears to be an excellent astronomer (FRAS) but might not have appreciated several factors. (Please note, thus far, I have only skimmed the Web link). The Chinese were good at Mathematics but did not develop geometry like the Greeks. So, they made mistakes in non-mathematical areas. Chinese society was organised around the solar-lunar calendar. I have been to an invited lecture on the Chinese solar-lunar calendar at the Singapore Asian Civilisations Museum. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the Chinese dates. Nonetheless, believe there was greater emphasis on lunar vis-à-vis solar calculation. Thus, the Chinese were more likely to record lunar events than solar events. Stephenson is cherry picking. Needham is a more authoritative source on astronomy in China. Yes, I do appreciate that (Logicians aren’t keen on argument based on authority, either :-).

TESTING SOME INTUITION

Aslan, when is the Sabbath? Optional… I wont press you.

Aslan,

Quote, "In any case, your criticism is an argument from silence which is a logical fallacy. Just because we do not have or cannot find any (Chinese) record of Joshua's long day does not mean it did not happen".

As much as I respect the intelligence of you two, you argue from opinions of others and fail to research the physical application of the Biblical text. The use of the term day in verse 13 refers to the normal period of a day from sunrise till sunset. It does not imply there was almost two days in one day. Whatever was happening lasted almost the whole normal day. It does suggest that the sun set as normal at the end of the day. I ask when did Joshua pray "Sun stand still over Gibeon"? Was his prayer at the end of the day of battle when the sun was about to set over Gibeon? Gibeon and Aijalon were on the western horizon from Azekah and Makkedah, hardly the middle of the sky (midday). To me it seems his request was granted until the sun reached almost the horizon at Gibeon. That is; ceased to shed light before it set over Gibeon.That is why I contend the ceaseation was to shed its light, not ceased to traverse its normal course.

I still fail to see how this debate applies in determining what is best practice in applying balance in a Christian view of law and politics

Alsan,

JURY

1) Rape is prosecuted not merely because a court says so, but, because, in our society, generally, the Court exercises the cultural belief system of society. Under some fiefdoms the Lord had the legal entitlement to have his way with the bride before the bridegroom. That was a different legal system. Were we to place fiefdoms and liberal democracies side-by-side, we would see a different locus of power. Herein, on a practical level, I find the scenario you outline unlikely because that was the sort of thing we have been trying to stop. So, rape is seen to be wrong in our society, as an opinion, as an evolved social order and law.

No, majority does not rule, the locus of power rules. In Western democracies compared to alternative systems in just happens there some degree of positive agreement. Our society would need to change, before rape would be legal.

2) In our system the law is an extension of the community not the other way around, as you suggest. (I would accept a dotted feedback loop.)

3) Under our system, a jury freeing a “whore”, who did not welcome sex, would be acting against consensus of the society that created the anti-rape laws in the first place. It would need to be regarded as exceptional behaviour a body of people would respond this way today. It would be a failure on the jury’s part in not following society’s guidelines.

4) Most our socially evolved society would disagree with the verdict and that rape is wrong.

(Aside) More commonly, rape is not a so much a response to sexual enticement , but has more to do with aggression and empowerment, owing to feelings of inadequacy. A whore, as you put it, is more likely to be a victim of homicide by a religious zealot: Sodom in miniature.

SENTENCES

Agree: My sentences are cyclic references in Logic. However, Philosophy also permits direct and indirect self-reference. I am happy to accept many logicians would agree with you. So, let’s call it a circular reference.

WILL ADDRESS LATER, PHILO - SPACE

Since the text is in the form of a prayer or poetry. It is couched in words like a warrior might use, "May the sun cease to shine on those from Gibeon, and the moon no longer shine in the valley of Aijalon". Meaning that the enemy would find their fate there; for the enemy the sun and moon would no longer shine upon them. But the miracle was that the Lord slew most of them with hailstones as they fled toward Gibeon and Aijalon, thus Joshus's prayer was answered. For the enemy the sun and moon ceased shining upon them.

It seems the reference to the presence of the moon is also relavent, as this seems to have some importance in his prayer. No issue is made about the moon standing still. However the claim would be the earth failed to rotate on it axis for about the whole day which would have affected the gravitational relationship between these two bodies.

Philo,

The debate is primarily about objective morality, historical fact and hermeneutics – all of which need to be set in order before we can even begin to talk about “best practice in applying balance in a Christian view of law and politics.”

Oliver,

According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath was on a Saturday – although there were also numerous special Sabbaths which could occur on any day. See Leviticus 23.

Re Luther, you ask: “Are you denying the original report? I thought you felt Luther as just speaking in an unconsidered manner.”

I do not deny that Luther made those remarks. I DO deny that they were a considered opinion and a thoughtful response to, or attack on, Copernicus and his view. As I have explained several times now, the remarks were made on one occasion only around a dinner table with students, and were not part of any of Luther’s published sermons, writings or commentaries, and were made several years before Luther could possibly have known all the details of Copernicus’ view. How could any reasonable person consider that a thoughtful response?

Re Chinese astronomy, you said: “[I?] believe there was greater emphasis on lunar vis-à-vis solar calculation. Thus, the Chinese were more likely to record lunar events than solar events.”

Kind of defeats your argument then, that Chinese would have accurately recorded Joshua’s long day…

Re Juries, you said: “No, majority does not rule, the locus of power rules. In Western democracies compared to alternative systems in just happens there some degree of positive agreement.”

And the difference between majority rule and locus of power rule is….
Sounds awfully like majority rule to me.

You said: “Our society would need to change, before rape would be legal.”

Agreed. Its unthinkable now. But then 100 years ago, homosexuality was a criminal offense and universally regarded as totally perverse behaviour. Now it is acceptable. Pederasty is currently illegal but homosexual pederast lobby groups are constantly trying to lower the age of consent. They already have it at 10 in South Africa, 12 in Holland, and 14 in Hawaii.