Astounding post Bosk - inspiring, refreshing. There a few absolutes but to continue to learn, keep an open mind is a good one.

Xena,

I liked your quantum physics reply and note your good efforts to keep us all on the original right-left topic. :-) Herein, there has been some contributor drift – no doubt. Nonetheless, I feel some of the issues raised are important, maybe justifying a few asides.

With the Planck Time thing on one level, I was just having a little joke. Well, I was trying at least. On a more serious level, I was saying that if a Christian theist needs to justify contradictions in the Bible, why shouldn’t an atheist explain how the physics of the Big Bang fits in with Schrödinger’s cat paradox. Superposition would suggest the need for an “observer” to resolve the paradox to allow the creation of four-dimensional space-time. Who was the observer?

... and that’s why you see, creation can be. Since observed by,

Yours faithfully, God.

(With thanks to Ronald Knox)

My point is that whether you are a theist or atheist you need to test propositions and, even try to develop arguments against your own position. Don’t merely indwell in the domain of the like minded. Change roles and think through what other equally intelligent people are saying and LISTEN. Herein, never rest on a final position. Search, search and search again. Question, question and question again.

(My own views are, (a) that there is too little known about Jesus to convincingly label him divine, (b) quantum physics needs to resolve many in-house issues, before it tries to establish a Theory of Everything with Cosmology, and (c) recent ideas about the self-organising properties of matter are highly worthy of investigation.). In all cases, we need more input and propositions framed in refutable constructs. In sum, we need more thinking, more revision and fewer embedded advocacies.

Bosk, I'll second Ringtail's comments. Great post.

Fiona, I've been trying to think of a good parallel to get a different look on some of what you are saying (re telling others not to try and tell you how to run your life) and the confusion that has caused some. I'm not there yet but it occurs to me that the following might do.

You want to have a nice quiet evening at home (a long soak in the bath/watch a favourite tv show/read an interesting book etc) so you lock the door on home. That should post a strong message to others not to wander in. Someone else's plan for the evening includes a visit to you (uninvited and unwanted by you) so they consider it OK to force a window open to come visit. Their visit is important, you might be reading a book they don't like or watching something they don't approve of.

Very different ethical and behavioural issues in my view, I still can't understand why some think that they are the same.

I quite like that analogy, Robert. When, as occasionally used to happen, godbotherers of one brand or another would darken my doorstep in order to try and preach whatever nonsense they were into, I would meet them at the gate and politely but very firmly tell them that I'm not interested. If they persisted, they would then have to contend with the dog loose in the yard in order to reach the door. If, despite all reasonable attempts of mine to preserve my 'peace and quiet enjoyment' they still persisted in invading my personal space they would either be invited in for a satanic ritual or an orgy, depending on my mood. They haven't been back.

I employ a similar approach to the pests who telephone me trying to sell my stuff I neither need nor want, except I tend to be less polite.

As for these forums - I've learnt that to engage these religious nutters only encourages them. It's the equivalent of the foot in the door or talking to a telesales drone. So now I just talk about them sometimes with reasonable people, but only when it amuses me.

Oliver, thanks for the reply I found it very interesting and appreciate the points you made.

I will continue to question, try to keep an open mind. This article has certainly brought in some fresh ideas. Enjoying that.

The world as we know it has ended aarrgh.. Xena is being NICE, Bosk admits to his newfound humility, and Ringtail.. well just needs another pat :) (becos she is always nice)

Now Bosk, I need to 'deal' with you me boy :)

How do u know that I also don't have umpteen zillion degrees phd's etc etc..... hmmm ? and in similar topics. I'll bet I know your answer, 'because the stuff you posted showed you are thus and so" :) well, there are limits to how much one can source and sift in 350 words. So, ones selection is not neccessarily an indication of ones overall position.

OH. I don't have any degrees, :) I'm a humble techician who never went to uni, so clearly you have it all over me right ? 0_-
But I know a bit about sources, and delving into issues to the appropriate level, and recognizing incestuous re-hashing of material.

Former FUNDY ? aarggh again, nothing worse than a reformed smoker eh :) allllways picks on the other smokers with a passion unrivaled by even Pastor Fred Phelps.

You claim I should 'trust you' about Josephus being flawed, well, 'why' ? You should back that claim up with a chain of evidence, not just a source, and each link in the chain should have some comment about 'why' they view things as they do, including what kind of daddy they had :).... (see the other thread about atheism and fathers)

We could debate Archeology if u like, my good buddy Dr Cliff Wilson will be my brains trust :) he has done digs in Israel among other places.

What a pity we are not all in Melbourne, we could have a nice get together and rip each other to pieces until we actually do know where the others are coming from. I strongly sense most of us are viewing the rest thru very stererotyped blinkers