Australia & australians are unique. I have been involved quite deeply at times with generational (4-5th) generations of a white anglo saxon past. I have also been involved with indigenouse Australians. The comparison is quite different even with mixed indigenouse compared to the Anglo Saxon Australians.
My experiences show that the white Australian have an attitude towards its fellow man. A true example of this is in todays terms is the tall poppy sindrome. Other examples are comming to light even as I type the 9 Australians in Indonesia are out there blaming each other. Through-out my lif I have found that the average white Australian can not be trusted. Mate ship as Howard describes is well & true friendship is very hard to find in Australia. Loyality does not exist. Wake up Australia the people need the ability to be loyal to each other and show a little compasion to our fellow human

"Too many people are detained for too long without judicial review; too many children suffer from curable, untreated disease; too many children don’t get primary schooling; too many people wander the streets without care or treatment; there is too much interference in some areas of our lives by government; too little respect for our rights and dignity in other areas."

Howard, what exactly are you advocating with a statement such as this.
Are you saying that Australia is so backwards that when the government should intervene it doesn't and when it shouldn't it does.

The state government's provide free primary and secondary education for all Australians if they choose to use it. There are family payments bonuses for families who have their children immunised and kids walking the street is not the government's problem.

Our human rights record stands up against any other country - we don't need any more interference from the government.

t.u.s.

TUS, Australia's human rights record does not stack up regarding detainees/refugees and indigenous population in this country. This is where Australia's human rights' recordjust sucks bigtime.

Whilst I might agree with you regarding our wonderful public school system which is accessible to all (as long as they'res a bus going past,) only the lonely could say that there is a major imbalance happening with the population of Australia that most need our human rights.

Ah “human rights” – the fundamental right to exercise ones own discretion in words and speech and subject to the rights of other people, the right to action too.
Now

So Howard Glenn “When I hear stories of what happens to defenders of human rights in other countries, it’s a relief to be from a place where one only has to deal with moist sneers.”

Human rights includes the right to sneer and be sneered at.

It includes to right to express and support a dissenting view – or are you one of those “human rightists” who see your “rights” as pre-eminent above your critics and detractors – there is a word for that.

Australia does have a proud tradition and reputation for respecting individual rights, it is one of the reasons I chose to apply and waited to migrate here.

However, Di, we also have a reputation for expecting our rights of border security to likewise be respected. The detention of those who flagrantly abuse out national sovereignty and attempt to infiltrate this community by clandestine and illicit means, resulting in their possible extended detention, in so displaying a total disregard for our rights are in no position to demand we respect theirs.

Likewise the United Nations, an organisation who’s capacity for graft and corruption is becoming more apparent by the day, is not worthy to criticise us either.

What about the 100,000 of legit refugees in camps all over the world who have to remain in poverty & squalor due to the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who put their children at risk to flaut our laws & gain entry to our country?

Don't they have children too?, Does the UNHCR, chaired by Libya, care about these people?
I'll tell you this, they care more then the political left in Australia who only seem to be interested in cases that can be USED to further their own twisted political agendas & portay the Howard government in bad light.
It is so pathetic.

It's not about sneering Col, whilst I agree with the fact that we have to protect borders et al, desperate times in other countries call for desperate measures. I am pretty sure that Joe Blogsnoski or Jane Abdul are not up with international law when they are fleeing a regime that they have reason to believe will treat them just as horribly as a serial killer in America (ie: no rhyme, reason - just born in the wrong country in the wrong time/place at random) They are just paying to get the hell out of there. Our laws make them criminals once they hit our shores. Some things are just not collective, and an invididual's right to freedom is one of them. Especially when it comes to kids. Our detention centres are the 21st century equivalent to Nazi camps and like the Nazi's, the govt will justify it till the cows come home, because we have the law on our side. Having the law on side doesn't necessarily make it (human) right. If we had to flee Aust for their reasons, would you stand in line like a lot of "believing the system" jews did in Europe that ended up in cattle trucks? Or would you go underground/overseas, like modern day refugees do to save your family? Just because it doesn't seem to happen on a "sweeping through Europe" systematic genocide that comes to western world's attention, doesn't mean it no longer happens anymore. God help us, we have the room!

Di Any “credibility” for your view was flushed down the pan with – and I quote you

“Our detention centres are the 21st century equivalent to Nazi camps and like the Nazi's, the govt will justify it till the cows come home, because we have the law on our side”.

"Equivalent" -
Equal, as in value, force, or meaning.
Having similar or identical effects.
Source Dictionary.com

1 Hitler incarcerated the citizens of his own nation first – we are detaining illegal immigrants and visa violators.

2 Hitler was pursuing a final solution – we are not

3 Hitler expropriated the property and possessions of his victims – we are not

4 Hitler closed his borders to prevent the Jews escaping – we offer assistance for illegal immigrants to go home.

5 Hitler enforced his political will with barbaric experiments, gas chambers and crematoria – the nearest to that we have are some dumb sensationalists trying to engender sympathy by sewing a piece of thread into the corner of their own mouths

So any “equivalence” between Nazi camps and detention centres is obviously lacking – just like the credibility of people who think their is mileage in making and posting completely asinine claims.

I note a family from refugee camps in East Africa featured in the Herald Sun yesterday, they waited in line as their refugee status was processed and they were approved for entry – and my sincere best wishes to them. Should their opportunity to get here be deferred because some queue jumper from India (the 6 year man) took their place? – I, for one, do not think so

Split hairs till you're having a bad hair day Col. If you are going to quote a dictionary equivalent vs equal and what those words mean verbatim doesn't quite get to the crux of the human matter rattling around in detention. Whether one is detaining people from their own country or from someone elses just goes to highlight the humanity and the legality we should offer. Morally, it is wrong to hold people in detention for that period of time, as I have said, they are not necessarily "Criminals". Our laws are such that when they land here, they are criminals. They are not taking away rights of "legal immigrants", ie: we let some refugees in and therefore we cut down our quota of "real immigrants". It's horrible in the sense that if it was you in a detention centre making your own little bid for freedom, you would be horrified and traumatised as well. Any individuals fleeing from in danger of being murdered by that country's regime deserve a bit of TLC. If it was happening here, we would expect it from the US and UK. But hey! they're just like us!

And another thing Col, you take exception to my equation with nazi regime when it comes to the differences you so rightly pointed out. Hitler gained power in Europe, with a lot more borders than Oz, so it was easier to take away the rights of a certain type of people that had a lot more transience happening. He made sure he stitched them up before he got into a final solution. Step by step. Take one step, two step, and before you know it, you are down the garden path, justifying manditory sentencing before you know it. Nazi mindset is not confined to Germany. Neither is empathy. Or sympathy to some poor bugger that just wants what we seem to have.

Di – I gave the reference to the definition of “equivalent” - I suggest any dispute you have you take up with dictionary.com.

As for the rest – I could list a range of further dissimilarities between what you “claim” and what happens in the “real world” – Your attempts to vilify the overwhelmingly accepted (by Australians) Australian practice of detention for illegal queue jumpers who have no regard or respect for our statutes, suggests that maybe you would be better off going and putting all your energy toward doing something rather than posting here telling everyone else what they should do.

As for taking steps – your attempts to reduce all debate to the level of emotional hyperbole illustrate the dimensions to your argument being –

“scalar”

(distinct from “vector” or “array” – I suggest you look up those definitions yourself, when you make your complaint to dictionary.com)

Col, just what part of desperately fleeing for your life don't you understand?

A simple analogy using your logic. If I was being attacked in my home and I fled next door into my neighbour's home for help - should I be arrested for trespass? According to you I should be.

No one is suggesting that we don't assess refugees for suitability for residence in our country. We are simply saying that the process should be humane.

Why can't we process people the same way we processed Vietnamese boat people - we didn't lock them away for years?

Detention camps are not humane- they are the closest thing to facism in this country and we should be questioning their use.

Why can you not understand that bad things can happen to good people and despite everything there are times when people need help and understanding?

Given the vitriol of your responses to people like Di, Miranda and myself, you appear to be one emotive individual and as such would be the first to scream if your rights were trampled upon in the same manner as the refugees have been.

You must lead a very fortunate existence Col so be so untouched by the plight of these people.

I'm not here to have a competition about who's got the most pointy headed words in any posting, Col Rouge your latest comment was a tad smug. If "reducing" the level of debate by being emotional about issues such as human rights, you find so much to be derisive about, I wonder what issue you would justify getting emotive or passionate about? Re suggesting I go and put my energy into something else, what? and leave the postings to you and the World According to You? I'm not telling anyone what to think, it's a debate. Any one also thinking that Australians overwhelmingly support our current detention practices, missed the whole point of the last election. In the infamous words of Bill Clinton - "it's the economy stupid". The sad point is that no human rights issues came up in the election, there were probably too many people like you not caring to put it on the agenda, too worried about your little neck of the woods with the mortgage.

Xena “Col, just what part of desperately fleeing for your life don't you understand?”

I guess I do not understand the part in which these people managed to move through a dozen other “sovereign nations” since the “fight for their lives” and then still took to paying a criminal people smuggler to avoid migration control at our sovereign border. Somehow the “fleeing for your life” bit ceased and became a “queue jumping economic refugee”.

Di – nor am I in competition – I am merely pointing out the emotional tripe and platitudes which you are trawling up in some form of pretend justification for sanctifying the actions of the illegal and corrupt.

It was you who wrote (Australian detention centres are) “21st century equivalent to Nazi camps”, it was I who illustrated the hyperbole and stupidity of that statement – If you cannot live with the consequences of what you wrote, I suggest – think more before writing.

Now suggesting why people voted is simple – they made their free choice and they exercised it – you are neither qualified nor competent to “judge” why they may have done so, regardless of how much a sense of “smug superiority” it may give you.

As far as “social vices” are concerned, the air of “superiority” often goes hand in hand with an extravagant indulgence in “hyperbole” – they are both symptoms of deep seated frustration stemming from a self-realisation of how pointless and ineffectual some peoples lives really are – so much so they try to find purpose and esteem in defending the indefensible – all quite “quixotic”

Col

I take it then that you think locking up innocent people (including children) indefinitely for years is OK. As I have stated previously we didn't treat refugees in years past (Vietnamese) like this, so why are we treating people so badly now?

I want you to state that you think locking up little kids is just fine by you - say it "locking up little kids is fine".

You bet I'm emotional - why don't you speak to some refugees ask them to tell you their stories first hand?

Yeah Col and I spose it's okay with you if we have to lock up and destroy and even deport a few 'real' Australians in this pathetic and counter productive attempt to save our lifestyle from being threatened by people who just want to have what we have.

It seems to me that these people should be congratulated for exercising their rights as indivdiuals to attain a better life, anyway they can.

As an advocate of self-reliance, you should be applauding them for their initiative, for the spirit they show in getting through 'dozens'(!?) of countries to make it here - rather than waiting for the 'govment' to help them

Col Rouge, you are the only person to use the word hyperbole to the extent it becomes a hyperbole in itself to keep using it, other than Alexander Downer (who is famous for using it) and that is hardly a claim to fame in your little dic(tionary). For scalar, I give you back vector. (Xena and Mollydukes - get out your dictionaries, you too can have a field day of fun, educational postings and learn something other than cheap wasted emotions on those nasty little illegal, criminal, lawbreaking queue jumping brats). It's nice to know Col, that you stood by choice, in a nice little, orderly queue and got your little passport and visa stamped so you could come to this country legally. Thank your lucky stars that it didn't have to be in a leaky boat to a country where the likes of Xena, Mollydukes and myself would have been waiting at the dock to throw you overboard. But then, you came from a nice, orderly, friendly country where you were allowed to come here. Nice choice Col, keep posting the way you are and I'll happily throw you back. Sovereign just says it all. One rule for you and forget about the others.

Xena – somewhere along the chain of a dozen countries these people passed through and recruitment of the services of a people smuggler, they creased to be “fleeing” and metamorphosed into “economic opportunists"

As for “I want you to state..” - I would remind you – I do not jump to your “command” and will state nothing I choose not to state – I will always resist unauthorised commands – on principal if nothing else - next you will be suggesting the thought police and censorship of all opinion except your own!

Mollydukes I applaud those who conduct themselves with respect for others and within the law of the country they wish to become a citizen of – I do not applaud, support nor condone violators of Australian laws and sovereignty including illegal immigrants.

Di – I will exercise whatever vocabulary I choose – read my response to Xena re – me stating what she commands and suggest.
With regard to the leaky boats – they paid their ticket for illegal entry to a people smuggler – they accepted the risk – “Volentia non fit iniuria”.
Further, just as illegal possession cannot convert to legal ownership, illegal entry cannot imply or ascribe citizenship or right of residence.

Col, illegal possession has been known to convert to illegal ownership in quite a few countries. Terra Nullus/Mabo (sorry my Latin is not up to speed with yours) ring a bell? Changing the law has kept quite a few politicians and lawyers busy dealing with that one over the last decade. Squatters' rights? I (dare) suggest you've gotten a bit away with yourself here. I don't think anyone (and there I go thinking on everyone's behalf again) on this posting has said that illegal immigrants should be given carte blanche citizenship, with a house in the western suburbs and a free set of steak knives, rather, that the Australian processing of our illegal immigrant detainees is what is under question. Re the morality of holding human beings in detention with all the fall out that is coming with it. Political, emotional, psychological. The traffickers themselves and the profiteering and corruption is another story.

Xena is just telling you to put your money where your mouth is, which is nothing less than what you have been demanding of other posters, including myself. Chill out and don't be so lofty about the whole shebang.

Col, you did not respond to the core issue of my question to you. the one about your hypocrisy in admiring self-reliance in one group of people but denigrating it in another.

But never mind, all I need to do to dismiss your opinions is to remember your claim that you are 'as happy as a pig in mud and just need a couple of bikini clad girls to join you'.

Say no more.

Di - I see, when your points fail, you think you can turn the clock back 200 years and pretend the rules of yesterday apply today and also pretend no country has the right or has in fact has enacted any Bills to create Acts of Law in the mean time – remember the world is a changing place. We, in Australia, have a national right to protect our borders against freeloading illegal immigrants and a right to decide who comes and who does not.

Just remember if you want to turn back the clock - you will be back before the days of female suffrage – I suggest you beware what you ask for - real people deal with the world as it is - they do not linger for yesteryear!

Mollydukes – the main point you were making did not merit comment – I simply thought it more polite not to bother. Of course it is easy for the self righteous do-gooders to find hypocrisy when they go out and look for it – I find it hypocritical that a bunch of politically impotent tossers, with nothing better to fill their lives or spend their dole cheques on, interfere in the smooth running of our traffic networks to pursue puerile protests with disregard for real people legally going about their daily business

Dismiss my opinions all you want – I do not need your approval to post them.

However, I do not dismiss the idea of you in a bikini – the idea never even merited a thought to begin with.

"A simple analogy using your logic. If I was being attacked in my home and I fled next door into my neighbour's home for help - should I be arrested for trespass? According to you I should be."

Be careful using simple analogies Xena because that is all they are - simple.

Consider this

I am being attacked in my home and I flee next door to my neighbours house - except I do not tell him I am coming but sneak through the back window and sleep in his loungeroom.

The problem is though, I do not actually know my neighbour and he wakes up in the middle of the night and finds me breaking into his house. He calls the cops and I do get arrested for trespass because that is what i have done.

But, just say I was getting attacked in my own home and my next door neighbour didn't have a good heating system. I climb over ten fences until I get to a nice big house with plenty of space, even though I would have been safe as soon as I got out of my own yard.

Of course i don't claim ownership of this new house and as soon as the intruder is gone from my house I move back there. Even though I would really, really like to live in the big house, it is now safe to go home.

Keep up the fight Col (you nasty Nazi)

t.u.s.

tus - I had to keep it simple I was using Col's logic.

Whereas you have ventured into soap opera territory with your little story - more plot devices than in an episode of Neighbours.

LOL to all.

because things are always more complex than simple analogies.

And my story had far fewer wannabe starlets than a typical Neighbours episode. ;)

t.u.s

Col, we have obviously hit a raw nerve about your emotions re illegal freeloading detainees for to you to lower yourself to deride us posters (and those detainees) in stereotyped baskets as either do-gooders or freeloading corrupted don't take their place in the queue. I don't know where you come from and what age you were when you came legally to this country, but my money's on a whinging Pom (sorry, is that sterotyping?). Bet you copped some flak whilst going about your legal business. I don't want to go back 200 odd years but issues generally come up because the current legislation is flawed and society moves faster than the law (like just about everything. People change legislation, just look at criminal law, employment law et al. The law is not, and should not be immutable. But it should always take into account human's, their foibles and reflect the society it has been legislated in. Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be the first poster on your list to be wearing a scold's bridle!
Cheers

Col's respect for the laws of the country are legendary in certain aspects. He doesn't seem to respect the laws that guarantee us all the freedom to protest and advocate for change to immoral and stupid laws.

It has been people who sought to change laws that have moved Western society (oops thats right no such thing as society is there?) to the heights of achievement in all areas of life, that we currently enjoy.

How about if all the do-gooders back in victorian England had said, no worries mate, it's legal to send kids down the mines so don't protest about it. Luckily, the protesters back then were not those 'dole bludgers and freeloaders' but respectable and wealthy people.

Col's awareness of the widespread opposition to the detention centre is very limited and he doesn't realise that there are actually quite a lot of people, even those with jobs and money in the bank who think they are shameful and unnecessary.

Hey tus - thanks for the support - you and I see the world through similar eyes - some here might suggest we would swagger in our jackboots as we travel down Collins Street whipping those rufty-tufty protestors into line - but reality - I like to keep the black leather bright, shiny and unbesmerched from kicking the bums of bums.

I guess the “complexity” of issues flies over their heads once they drag themselves away from the comfort of Ramsay St to what passes for “real world” in the myopic delusions which they take onboard and then espouse.

Di – you hit nothing – in fact your aim is so pitiful – I doubt you could hit a barn wall with a shotgun – even firing it from inside the barn. Twaddle is always twaddle – and “dullard bating” a recognised “blood sport”, one which I have always enjoyed pursuing.

Mollydukes – suggest read the above and substitute your handle for Di’s.

Col, you've certainly lost the thread of this one, as i said before, you are in the mire of personal attack. Re a barn wall, I live in the country and shoot vermin all the time. Know all about foxes and the other stuff we've inadvertently imported, including opinions. Stick to the issues.

Col, U grumpy old man. All U can do is dream about girls in bikinis and write personal insults.

Stick to the issues.

TUS - nice try - no cigar.

LOL

Col likes boundaries - between himself and everybody else, and between his adopted country and the rest of the world. He also likes a fight, which is why he is so obnoxious in his style of argumentation, and also undoubtedly why he supports wars where millions of people die to support the ideology to which he subscribes. Those millions had to die so freedom lovers and armchair warriors like Col could enjoy their privileged existences. No wonder he's not particularly worried about the denial of human rights and other mistreatment of asylum seekers.

As long as we're OK, bugger the rest of the world, eh?

Xena: 'LOLing' does nothing to help your 'cause'.

Col has consistently put his arguments with style and logic, which is far more than I can say for anyone attempting to accuse Australia of 'Human rights abuse'. When people need an identity, they can now 'adopt a refugee' and decry the Howard government for making up 'silly boundaries'-indeed, why have any at all? 'Let's be loving and let everyone in!'

It's so easy to criticise the leaders, not so common are 'activists' being active in any way other than an occaisional protest and placard waving sesssion outside a detention center. Has any activist in this forum actually given a proven refugee a home? or do you expect the government to do that too, so you can sit back, post on this forum and find another 'trendy cause' to 'express yourself' through?

Xena, do you suspect Em is Em Blau perhaps, ie: Mister Rouge in disguise.

Gee the wig and sunglasses really fooled us Col!

But our commitment to the UN processes and the international human rights framework is selective, fragile, and touched with sad irony

Pretty much sums it up. The truth is we have very little to no rights, if or when the Australian government turns its own people. For example ASIO is able to hide behind secrecy acts and ignore individuals basic human rights.

http://users.cjb.net/freedom1/asio.doc