Before condemning the catholic position on contraception, how about checking the AIDS facts with the catholic countries in Africa. the countries with the lowest AIDS rates are the ones that use the ABC method advocating abstinence before marriage and faithfulness after.
These countries have high percentage of catholics and low rates of AIDS. The highest AIDS countries are the ones with low catholic numbers and high condom use (condoms aren't 100 per cent effective).
I am not a catholic (or christian of any denomination) and happily use condoms but for people who are and live in Africa - abstinence and monogamy are obvously the safest option.

t.u.s.

Well the holy rollers have arrived.

While most of the "enlightened and informed" world hoped for a low church Anglican as pope, the caridinals thought otherwise and elected a catholic. Although the pr machine is trying to soften his image, I think that the panzerKardinal is an appropriate name for this fellow. While he may have old world manners and charm he isn't going to budge if he feels that Catholic dogma is going to be diluted. I think he has this rather outdated notion that if you profess a certain faith you actually try to live up to it. Novell idea.

Atheists grossly overestimate the importance of the popes utterances in the Lives of most practicing Catholics.

I must be a bit simpleminded but why the hell would a African rooting around give a brass razoo about what the pope thinks about contraception. The man/woman who has premarital sex, commits adultery, has multiple sexual partners is not suddenly going to say I have broken most of the Catholic sexual commandments but I will keep the one about not putting a rubber on. Its this type of thinking that gives atheists a bad name. Sharpen up.

I actually think that it is more likely for Ratzinger to approve of contraception than for the Secular Bigots to argue for monogomy and chastity before marriage as a 100% effective method for stopping AIDS.

The modern wold has not taken much heed of Christianity over the past 150 years. Indeed the 20th Century has been the great testing ground of post Christian ideas. Communism, Fascism, nationalism divorce, sexual promiscuity, destruction of the family, the elevation of human rights in theory and their debasement in practice, the death of religion and hedonism. Keep slagging of Christianity and Catholicsm. The world you built is so much better than the one Ratzinger is offering.

slumlord, sarcasm is a blunt weapon on these forums, it rarely comes off and mostly looks clumsy. Just trying to help.

I know it is fun for you guys to point out how the world has gone to hell in a handbasket because we ar all such sinners, but I'm not sure it is wise to advocate turning back the clock quite so enthusiastically. Reminding people of the days when their ancestors lived in grinding poverty while the church hierarchy swanned around in luxury is probably not the greatest recruitment poster.

The loss of "faith" in recent might be as much the result of resentment against the centuries of moral blackmail that kept the church in gold and purple while their flock needed new shoes, as any moral degeneration on the part of ordinary folk.

The new Pope will be just as superfluous and irrelevant to the world, Catholics and sinners alike, as have been his predecessors.

By the way, you aren't one of those "AIDS is God's punishment" people, are you? Just checking.

Sarcasm is a blunt weapon but one is forced to use it when intelligent reasoning fails.

I dont want to intimate that everything with the Catholic church was right in the past oe present or that many of its ministers failed to live up to its ideals(they were quite frequently the worst hypocrites). Many of its saints had to endure abuse and censure by the Church leaders initially.

Where the Church and the modern world differ is,

a)The church (Ratzinger in particularly) believes that while we may fail these ideals, the ideals themselves are worth keeping. This is the whole idea behind forgiveness in the Catholic tradition. That once you are forgiven its a clean slate and you can start again.

b)The modern world feels that if you cant keep the ideals then lower the ideals. The problem is that with that system the ideals get moved depedent on circumstances of the situation. In the end anything is justified. "The tyranny of relativism".

I don't want you to think that I think all atheists are evil. I think it is far easier for an honest atheist to get through the front door upstairs than a mediocre Catholic.

What bugs me about atheists is their own blind spot when it comes to their set of values(religion by another name?) . Even with the worst excesses of the Inquistion, etc the deaths of non believers would have amounted to several hundred thousand.( A terrible figure I agree)
But lets look at the enlightened world of communism, fascism and modern relativism. Their death toll is over the 100 million mark. Which of the two is a lesser evil?

The church has blood on its hands. The atheists are drenched in it.

Figures about the number of people dying of AIDS in particular African countries, those countries' level of Catholicism, the effectiveness of the Catholic message there etc etc, these figures are difficult to obtain, measure and analyse, and I'd be sceptical of their accuracy, but it's clear that the AIDS problem in Africa is massive and tragic, and that the Catholic hierarchy's irresponsible attitude has contributed. Daleep Mukarji, director of Christian Aid, said upon the death of John Paul 11, 'We were disappointed that he did not realise the Roman Catholic policy on condoms actually contributed to many deaths in the fight to control HIV/AIDS'.
Slumlord writes about abstinence. Of course a century of abstinence would solve all the human problems on the African continent, but let's be a bit more realistic. Given the sexual attitude of many African men to their women, expecting abstinence would be like waiting for Godot. And have you not noticed that AIDS is under control in Australia and Europe, without any great diminution of pre-marital or extra-marital sex? As Alduous Huxley wrote long ago, 'Chastity is the most unnatural of the sexual perversions'. Central to solving the AIDS problem in Africa are education, empowerment (particularly of women), political will, improved medication and the development of a culture of safe sex. These are what brought the situation under control in other parts of the world, and they'll eventually bring the situation under control in Africa, though there's a hard road to hoe. Another key to success is to sideline the Catholic Church as effectively as it's been sidelined in Australia and Europe.

Any of you heard about the drowning Atheist who asked God for help?