Hello people here is a link to an article in the NYT's by Nicholas D Kristoff on the very topic we are mass-debating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/08/opinion/08kristof.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fNicholas%20D%20Kristof

TUS - whew, wot a relief - U get off just like the rest of us.

Cheers dears

There's a whole lot of "not listening, not listening" going on here, with or without hands held tightly over ears.

"My only point is that the Catholic Church does not look like the big culprit in the AIDS epidemic"

If that is your only point t.u.s., it is not one that is in dispute. What the original article said (I know, it was a long time ago) was that by withholding an important weapon in the war against AIDS, the Catholic church is standing to one side as people die.

Nobody has said the Catholic church is to blame for the epidemic, merely that it is, by omission, allowing people to die who otherwise might live. Is this too subtle a point to understand?

One contributor - was it you? - made the point that the Catholic church is in the business of saving souls, not lives, which despite being a horrendously inhumane comment, at least has the merit of honesty.

Once again, no-one is blaming you for the problem, nor even for not being part of the solution, but for actively preventing the potential life-saving use of condoms.

What is it about this scenario that escapes you?

Pericles,

Why is it that Greg Barns has particularly singled out the Catholic Church

"The Catholic Church was then, and is today, responsible in a direct way for deaths caused by AIDS"

Why not blame Australia or any other country for not providing more aid for medicine for HIV victims. Or pharmaceutical companies who do not allow generic medicines to be used. or the justice and cultural systems in these countries which allow the rape of women to happen with little to know punishment.

AIDS is a big problem in Africa and the Catholic Church is not the biggest culprit in the puzzle. There are lots of other things other organisations and people can do.

It is not a Catholic problem, it is an African problem

Have a look at these stats about percentage of Catholics against per cent of population with AIDS for subsaharan africa

Country / AIDS rate (%) / Catholic population (%)

Tanzania / 8.8 / 25.5
Kenya / 6.7 / 22.8
Malawi / 14.2 / 23.6
Mozambique / 12.2 / 22.1
Angola / 3.9 / 38.2
Madagascar / 1.7 / 25.0
Congo (Zaire) / 4.9 / 25.0
Congo / 4.2 / 47.2
Zambia / 16.5 / 27.3
Botswana / 37.0 / 7.0
South Africa / 21.5 / 7.0
Lesotho / 28.9 / 50.0
Zimbabwe / 24.6 / 8.5
Uganda / 4.1 / 39.5

If there is any trend it is that the more Cathloics in the population the less chance of a high AIDS rate (with the exception of Lesotho).

I still don't understand why African Catholics are so afraid of the church they won't use condoms but will commit other so-called sins such as sex before marriage.

It is a problem for everyone and singling out the catholic church is not the solution.

there are other issues to be critical of the church, but blaming them for millions of AIDS deaths in Africa is not one of them.

t.u.s

>>Why not blame Australia or any other country for not.....etc.<<

It is a neat sidestep t.u.s., but it is no defence to say "everyone else is guilty too".

>>Why is it that Greg Barns has particularly singled out the Catholic Church<<

I can't speak for Greg of course, but any organization that sets itself up as having standards of morality higher than the populace at large has to accept that when you callously walk away from helping your fellow man, criticism will inevitably follow.

We are continually excoriated in this forum by Catholics who profess to hold "absolute truths", but surely, what we have here is a conflict of truths. You rely on the "absolute" of contraception as opposed to the "absolute" of holding human life sacred, for reasons that completely escape me, and which no-one here has satisfactorily explained.

>>... it is an African problem<<

Of course AIDS is an African problem. No-one suggests that is is not.

>>It is not a Catholic problem...<<

AIDS is not a Catholic problem. Turning your back on helping save the lives of fellow human beings is, it would appear, a Catholic problem.

Perhaps if I put it to music, it might help.

Pericles,

I am not a Catholic or Christian of any kind and in fact have spent time criticising certain aspects of Catholicism in the past.

But playing the blame game of AIDS regards Joseph Ratzinger is not based on evidence but more on the hatred certain people have towards the Church.

I hoped you actually looked at the stats I gave you, where is the big link between Catholicism and AIDS in Africa.

If there was a huge backflip by the new pope on the use of condoms it would make very little difference to the AIDS epidemic because Catholics aren't the ones getting it in the highest proportions, can't you see that.

You still haven't answered the problem of the power of the church regards using condoms but not in regards to pre-marital sex or faithfulness.

The argument that the doctrine of the church spreading AIDS is not based on rational thought.

t.u.s

HIV AIDS is just a myth - a fiction to hide the fact that the homosexual lifestyle with its emphasis on drug abuse is unhealthy - immune suppressive and the Myth of HIV AIDS is also been turned round and used as a stick to beat the Church with. But one is not forced to be a Catholic. If you want to be a practicing homosexual there are plently of Gay churches etc that will have you, but of course that would never do. Gays cannot bear to see normal people living satisfied lives. Keith