"If "t.u.s." is a journalist, as he claims, then this is an indictment upon his training and a blight on his worldview. Clearly, the weight of evidence presented in the very authoritative journal to which he refers us is overwhelmingly in favour of the promotion of condom use to help reduce the spread of HIV in Africa and elsewhere"

Thanks for the compliment Garra, but maybe you are more upset that I don't hold your worldview like a lot of other journalists in this country.

The argument here is whether the Catholic Church is responsible for millions of AIDS deaths in Africa.

I don't think it is, judging from the success of some of the ABC programs in places like Uganda.

I am not anti-condom, it is actually part of the ABC stuff.

But as someone said before - contraceptives AND promiscuity are both sins for people who Catholics. So why are so many people in Africa scared of using the condom but not scared of being promiscuous.

If the Church is so all powerful and has such an over-reaching command of its subjects - why are they having sex outside marriage.

Blaming The Pope and Catholic Church for AIDS deaths is saying that African people are so stupid that they follow aspects of their religion which leads to death but not others which won't.

I don't think these people are are stupid but the condescending church haters obviously do.

t.u.s

"I'm sure that everyone here will at least be able to admit that were everyone to abide by Catholic teaching regarding sexual intercourse..."
Sure, because AIDS isn't always passed from a mother to her children. But getting back to reality, not everyone can or will, nor is it reasonable to expect them to do so.

I'll answer question one, but I don't have any statistics for answering the others.

"1. Do practising Catholics engage in sex outside of marriage? If so, can they be considered practicing Catholics?"
Yes, otherwise when applied generally, there would be no practicing Catholics (See: John 8:7).

Here's a few more questions:
Are all Catholics able to follow all Catholic teachings?
No.

Do Catholics that engage in sex outside of marriage still follow other Catholic teachings while they do so? (Or, "[S]o stupid that they follow aspects of their religion which leads to death but not others which won't." as t.u.s puts it)
Yes. (See: Tony Abbott)

Are non-Catholics also affected by Catholic teachings?
Yes.

Two wrongs don't make a right but you have to look at *why* contraceptives are prohibited. Is it because sex not within a marriage and not for procreation is a sin? Well, that's happening anyway so it isn't a valid reason. Because it prevents the possibility of creating a new life? No, because condoms fail. Because it reduces the probablility of creating a new life? OK, but with this it becomes a matter of degree, since there are many things one can do that might reduce that probability. (Is it a sin for a man to wear briefs instead of boxers?) And then any potential reduction must be weighed against the lives that may be ruined.

tus

"Blaming The Pope and Catholic Church for AIDS deaths is saying that African people are so stupid that they follow aspects of their religion which leads to death but not others which won't."

"I don't think these people are are stupid but the condescending church haters obviously do."

No more stupid than the rest of the human race when the blood supply is being used to maintain an erection rather than think about consequences.

Most of us now wear seatbelts whereas 30 years ago that was rare. Were people more stupid then or is it that seatbelts are more readily available and we are more used to wearing them than people were 30 years ago? This is not about the intelligence of african people, it is about accepted norms and availability of condoms.

Wearing a seatbelt does not make me more likely to speed but if I was speeding a seatbelt would be even more important than going quietly down my street. Maybe a seatbelt makes it harder for God to take you when your time is up as condoms make it harder for God to start a new life and should be opposed for similar reasons.

I have to hand it to you slumlord, you have a nicely devious way of arguing your corner.

"...the Catholic Church does not Judge you. God does. If you are going to argue about Catholicism then at least now a bit the basic theology"

I was using the phrase "suspension of judgement" in a totally secular sense. I use it quite frequently with my non-Catholic brethren to indicate that, just for a while, they might withhold their own considerations on a particular issue, and do what is right. It never occurred to me that I should "now a bit the basic theology" before employing such a simple piece of English.

How can I put this more clearly? Greg is not asking you guys to wear the damn things yourself, just that you don't impose your own personal morality on someone who might then go on and die as a result. It is pure cant to introduce your own pain... "I think that you are begining to recognise what is being asked of the Catholic church with regard to the condom matter" as a reason for denying a fellow human being the opportunity to live, however "sinful" you might perceive that life to be.

It is also pure sophistry to hide behind "[t]he Catholic church is in the business of saving souls not lives". If that is the case, then you should print a big sign on the foreheads of all your missionaries. "Following our religious instruction could be hazardous to your health, yea even unto death. But if you are free from sin you'll go to heaven, so that's ok then innit?"

Robert, I appreciate your attempt at analogy using seatbelts but 30 years ago in Australia up to 30 per cent of the population was not dying from car crashes where a seatbelt would have saved their life.

Consider this - if back in the seventies 30 per cent of people were dying in car crashes but wearing a seatbelt could reduce this rate by 10 per cent.

There is still a very high risk you will die in a car crash even if you are wearing a seatbelt.

The sensible thing to do would probably be to not drive a car. Fortunately the death rate from cars has never been as high as the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

I am not saying that condoms are useless just that they should not be the only method of preventing AIDS in Africa because they are not foolproof. There is evidence to suggest that encouraging people to abstain and be be faithful can also have a positive effect on reducing the rate.
And there are millions of condoms in Africa and some of the countries with the most active condom distribution networks have high rates of AIDS and are not predominantly Catholic.

Pouring energy into developing comprehensive programs to reduce AIDS, not just dropping condoms, is more productive than slagging off at the Pope.

t.u.s

For those who like nothing more than to wade thru facts and figures this link provides a bunch of stats on contraception methods used by Catholics throughout the world. Pretty much fits with what I have observed in my Catholic friends and with many patients I assist.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/pubs/worldviewLong.asp

Cheers