Two people can look at the same facts and come to two different conclusions. Just because Xena and Miranda have contact with refugees does'nt mean what they say is gospel. Being educated and well informed does'nt make much difference in a debate, because people will pick and choose information to suit their argument, and omit important facts.

So perhaps Garra was right when he said this debate was devoid of any meaningful comment. But it is clear refugees are political currency, which is why refugee advocates want these "refugees" or "illegal immigrants" to stay irrespective of conditions back home.

BOAZ-David; Thanks for your response, your suggestion of better training for interviewers is reasonable but I don’t believe it’s enough to make the system work fairly. That’s because the same organisation that processes asylum claims – DIMIA - is responsible for immigration detention centres built like maximum security prisons in the middle of nowhere to detain men, women and children. Our most dangerous criminals are not held in such isolation.

This speaks volumes about current government attitudes towards asylum seekers, which is at the core of the problem.

Attitudes towards asylum seekers that permeate DIMIA as well as the wider community are driven by rhetoric used by pollies like Howard, Ruddock and Vanstone (eg children overboard).

The migration laws are second in complexity only to taxation laws. An asylum seekers is confronted not only with a different culture and language, but also an extremely complex legal system, that many refugee advocates struggle to comprehend (so do one or two government Ministers!!)

If the system was set up to be fair, then asylum seekers would at least have good access to lawyers to help them navigate it. This is impossible when they are locked up so far away; Baxter is bad enough then there's Xmas Island and Nauru.

An Iraqi friend was imprisoned in Saddam’s prisons for 2 years as a political prisoner, and brutally tortured most days. His body still bears the scars. In Australia, he was locked up in Curtin detention centre for 11 months, found to be a refugee and released on a temporary visa that does not allow family reunions. His future is uncertain as his temporary visa is under review.

He explains to me that the pain of physical torture recedes after 4 or 5 hours yet the mental and psychological torture of indefinite detention, temporary visas, no family reunion - the pain never stops. “Saddam’s torture kills quickly, Howard’s torture kills slowly”. He went from one prison to another, it just compounds the pain.

For another perspective, see submission to HREOC inquiry into kids in detention by a former DIMIA manager at Woomera

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/human%5Frights/children%5Fdetention/statements/hamilton.htm

Ringtail

yes same points. There is a preacher in Sth America, he preached one week, then next week, same sermon, and the week after. He told enquirers later, "whats the point of a new sermon if the previous one has not been ignored".
I raised issues which are central to the debate, from my (and many others) side, and they were greeted with 'ignore, dismiss,ridicule or arrogance "Yawn"... but were they met with serious attempts are response ? Barely.

shoshana,
you have shown yourself worthy of a respectful response, so I'll do my best to give one.

"Current government attitudes"

Has the government NOT accepted large numbers of genuine assylum seekers who have been living in camps in various places, who have been properly assessed and processed by the UN etc, and been brought to this country in an orderly and controlled manner ?

Given that we both know the answer to this is YES, we have to ask, 'why then, so harsh on the 'boat' people ? Ok. the Answer is most likely the simple fact that they are attempting to avoid the system, avoid processing in other countries, avoid a long wait that others have patiently endured and then been rewarded with a visa, avoid avoid avoid.

Have we not accepted Afghan refugees from any camps on the various borders ? Have we not accepted Asians from the Thai Border during the problems in Cambodia ? Have we not accepted Southern Sudanese refugees from camps etc ? (having met some of them and heard how long they had to wait in camps, I think I know about this) Some waited 2 yrs in camps and guess what those camps are WAY worse than our 'horrible detention centres', but do we call squalor of the refugee camps in Darfour or Sudan 'incarceration in inhumane detention centres' ?. Contrast the squalor and lack of 'marauding rapists' of Darfur with the security of our processing centres.

So, one has to ask, 'why' is there such a stink raised by various groups over those who are so flagrantly avoiding legal chanels. ?

Simply, David_BOAZ, the reason is because we are Australian and we can do better. This is our country and we need to make sure that human rights are not abused here. It is happening in detention centres in Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, Port Augusta, Nauru, Christmas Island and so it is up to us to do something about it.

It is not illegal to seek asylum in Australia.

The government of John Howard has used innocent people to gain political momentum by re-inventing Pauline Hanson's racist ideas of treating those who are different as second-class citizens.

I was once proud of Australia's multiculturalism. Now it is being undermined and abused. The divide and rule mentality of this current federal government just shows how easy it is to fool Australians. But as Bob Marley sang: "You can fool some people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all the time".

The racism that Howard is using about refugees comes from a fear of others that is easy to tap in to. But it has nothing to do with national security and a lot to do with finding someone to scapegoat so that the government can manipulate us. Fear can stop people from looking deeper.

Has it stopped you?

Unlike anyone posting here, I've been detained in one of Australia's illustrious immigration detention facilities.

Before I continue, I'll be very clear in stating that I broke the law.

I overstayed my visa. It was an accident, and I was 'apprehended' only 6 days after my visa expired. Because I broke the law, I deserved some kind of penalty. What happened over the next few days, however, was a farce.

I'm white, blond, from Pennsylvania. Not that that entitles me to treatment different from the rest of the detainees. I am entitled respect like anyone else.

I was handcuffed in an interrogation room at the police station. After arriving at detention, I was placed in solitary confinement. Yes, solitary confinement. When my migration case worker finally arrived (14 hours after they promised), he told ME about MY plans to remain here unlawfully, work for cash, get a degree without a student visa. It was up to me to convince him otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent. Luckily I speak English and I could explain and ask questions.

Among the more interesting things that happened: A package with a notebook and pen, was confiscated, and all foil had to be removed from chocolates. No pens? I might stab myself, then eat the foil. There are many other stories.

But the real problem WAS the different kind of treatment I got. My migration agent said it best. "This place wasn't built for you, it was built for the fruitpickers." But I was the one who DID, of everyone in there, break the law! He also pointed out to me, a white person with whom he could speak his mind, how the place stinks of Indians and Chinese. Yikes!

David and Col Rouge, I would never say that your arguments for better assessment are completely racially motivated, but some peoples clearly are.

In Australia, this is totally inappropriate. If there must be detention, then people like this migration agent cannot hold the fate of real people in the balance, and we need to stop treating people like they are criminals, because they aren't.

MIRANDA

by 'do better' are u in fact saying that the people we accept from all over the worlds trouble spots in an orderly and controlled and properly assessed manner is bad,flawed, not enough ? It seems to me that no matter what the government did, unless it involved open borders for all and sundry you would not be happy. Correct me if I'm wrong. Has it occurred to you that the government is just that ? They govern, they control, the limit, the advance, as the MANDATE they were given dictates. How can you expect it to be any other way ?
Perhaps 'your mob' did not get up, and ur being like some 3rd world would be dictator :) saying "The election was rigged" ... seems so.
Newsflash, 'our mob' DID get up. They are governing on behalf of those who voted for them. This does NOT mean they are doing EVerything in accordance with our views on fairness or on justice in all cases. Don't white-ant the policies of a freely elected government. "YOU" are not God, I'm sorry. (Neither am I)

KAREN.

my position is outlined pretty well in various posts. But it is not 'racial' in a 'racist' sense(see dictionary). (Im white, married to an Asian) To be honest, I would allocate points based on a number of factors including social and political compatability and other things, which is our democratic right to do. The UN (that corrupt and pathetic organization which cannot even stop genocide, I hold them in utter contempt) does not run Australia, nor does Miranda , WE do.
If Miranda's mob get elected she can say "she" does :)

I'm sorry for your sad experience, you have my sympathy, but u did say something which opened up a line of curiosity in me, you said 'Migration agent' .... do u mean that he was acting on your behalf with the DIMIA ? or, are u referring to the official immigration person ? The accusations they flung at you are a disgrace. Fill me in please.